PDA

View Full Version : Opposition not racism


Totenkopf
09-17-2009, 07:45 PM
Jimmy Carter doing his part to muddy the political waters. He should just stick to building houses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqgxaMOb_Oc&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL8Y370oQyg&feature=response_watch

That quip about Dowd was classic. :D

El Sitherino
09-17-2009, 07:47 PM
I'm pretty sure it's clear to those who actually listen that Carter is speaking about those with the "Go back to Africa" signs and shirts with pictures of monkey's that say "Obama '08"
As well as these birthers and people complaining about muslims invading our government and country.


Which is racist.

Notice how he didn't say "All opposition" but rather "intensely demonstrated portion".

I'd say intense supplies the context of what it is he's speaking about, but I happen to enjoy words so it may just be me having been in English Lit.

Totenkopf
09-17-2009, 08:55 PM
Were it only that straightforward. While there's racism and bigotry in the US and throughout the world, his is just another voice lent to the choir that's stipulating that opposition to BO (there was a lot of "intense" opposition of varying sorts and he wasn't specific as to what he was referring to, hence both of us being able to draw different conclusions about what he means) is primarily rooted in his skin color and not honest disagreement on policy issues. I applaud BO for at least not trying to wade into this one other to to say he doesn't share Carter's pov. I guess the Cambridge incident reinforced for him how fraught w/acrimony allegations of racism are in even modern day society.

Det. Bart Lasiter
09-17-2009, 10:34 PM
http://i25.tinypic.com/11ka5vs.jpg

a simple case of political protesting carry on

El Sitherino
09-17-2009, 10:41 PM
Were it only that straightforward.

He specifically says "the intense" which does not include all but rather narrows it down to specifically those who are extremely aggressive in their message. Consider now for a moment who the aggressive protesters are and you'll see that your argument is just crying for attention. No offense, but that's the truth.

Totenkopf
09-17-2009, 11:05 PM
As someone who's studied English, you no doubt appreciate how flexible a tool of communication it is. He didn't identify specifically who he believed the intense people were, leaving us with wiggle room to make our own inferences. Naturally, you're as free to read in to his comments as you wish. That's just an undeniable fact.

Web Rider
09-18-2009, 12:59 AM
Nobody cares what Carter says. He's about as informed on the facts as Kanye.

There is some foundation of protesting against President Obama based in racism. There is some that's based on his policies. There is some that's just random uneducated morons who just be their moron selves. Not all opposition to Obama is racism, or based in it. But you go around some parts of the country and meet the protectors, and there's no way you can argue that NONE of it is.

Totenkopf
09-18-2009, 04:10 AM
..and there's no way you can argue that NONE of it is.

post#3
..While there's racism and bigotry in the US..

e-varmint
09-18-2009, 05:51 AM
Since the specter of Carter has been invoked, I feel it necessary to balance the blemish to the good citizens of GA with a reference to Herman Cain. I would support Herman for President, and I wonder how Carter would react to the vitriol from the leftists that would be heaped upon this non-Caucasian politician.

I am also going on record as a "wordist finatic" here. The word Racism used to be, and should be, a word that carries a specific and significant meaning. Sadly, this is not the case these days. The term is consistently misused in our society to describe bigotry, prejudice, or the mere criticism of any actions of an individual of some other ethnic heritage. When people misuse words like this one, they dilute the meaning of the word. Having grown up in the Southeast, I have run across actual racists. These are people who believe that their race is inherently superior to some other race, and is therefore entitled to dominate and subjugate said other race. Not all of these individuals were caucasian, I might add. Effective communication is an important key to an effective society, so let's call Bigots Bigots and save "Racist" for those who truly deserve the term.

This, by the way, is a general observation, and is not meant as a snipe against any particular LF member(s).

Ten-96
09-18-2009, 05:52 AM
I've been away for a bit but I wanted to add:

I was in D.C. on Saturday 9-12 with my wife and son. There were no signs that read: "Bury Obama with Kennedy." The signs read: "Bury Obamacare with Kennedy." That is quite the difference and as you may imagine, not nearly as imflammatory for the liberals as the first.

Being a black man, I have had it up to my eyebrows with these false/fake/holier-than-thou claims from Carter, Pelosi, etc... about racism. Is there racism in America? Sure. Is it as prevelent as the left would have you believe? Not in my opinion; not even close. I do know that there is racism from both blacks and whites; not just from whites as some would have you to believe.

One last thing. Can anyone explain why we refer to blacks in America as "African-American" but we refer to whites as "White Americans"?

adamqd
09-18-2009, 06:17 AM
because White is used to describe more than one group, and said people come from more than one continent, whereas (Although some may call other groups Black) Black, is generally used to refer to people of African descent.

Det. Bart Lasiter
09-18-2009, 12:11 PM
I was in D.C. on Saturday 9-12 with my wife and son. There were no signs that read: "Bury Obama with Kennedy." The signs read: "Bury Obamacare with Kennedy." That is quite the difference and as you may imagine, not nearly as imflammatory for the liberals as the first.That's still an incredibly ******* thing to say, and I should think calling for the death of the President would be inflammatory to anyone.

Darth Avlectus
09-18-2009, 07:46 PM
I was in D.C. on Saturday 9-12 with my wife and son. There were no signs that read: "Bury Obama with Kennedy." The signs read: "Bury Obamacare with Kennedy." That is quite the difference and as you may imagine, not nearly as imflammatory for the liberals as the first.

That's still an incredibly ******* thing to say, and I should think calling for the death of the President would be inflammatory to anyone.

:raise:
.
..
...
I mean, you're right that calling for the death of, really anyone (not just the president), should be inflammatory to anyone... But...The signs didn't say bury Obama?

Sorry if I'm a little confused as to what you mean.

Jae Onasi
09-18-2009, 09:36 PM
I mean, you're right that calling for the death of, really anyone (not just the president), should be inflammatory to anyone... But...The signs didn't say bury Obama?
Sorry if I'm a little confused as to what you mean.
Obamacare, the conservative term for Obama's health care plan, is not the same as Obama. I don't understand why they're being confused. If the signs said "Bury Obamacare", that's very different from advocating the demise of the President.

I find it incredibly offensive when the race card is pulled out in attempt to shut down opposition. "Opposition = racism" is just as ridiculous as "agreement = 'not racist'". It shows a blatant disregard for attempting any understanding of why conservatives don't like the proposed health care plan or other Obama policies. Instead of trying to work with Republicans to resolve differences, the Dem leadership (read, Pelosi and Carter) are resorting to the same name-calling tactics that they howled about in the election. Calling someone racist instead of understanding and negotiating is the lazy way out.

By the way, it's not about racism, it's about people's pocketbooks. The conservatives are looking at the price tag and saying "I don't want to pay for this big program". I happen to think that the price tag is worth the health care benefits, and the Dems need to do a better job of explaining why instead of calling the opposition 'racists' and 'Nazis'.

Lord of Hunger
09-18-2009, 10:20 PM
@ The American People:

WAKE UP! You've been sold an pair of ideologies that are inconsistent by a bunch of people who don't believe in them for the purpose of getting them lots of cash. Furthermore, you are yelling and screaming about issues that THEY manufactured in the first place! All you are doing is advancing their cause by hating your fellow Americans!

Det. Bart Lasiter
09-18-2009, 11:56 PM
Obamacare, the conservative term for Obama's health care plan, is not the same as Obama. I don't understand why they're being confused. If the signs said "Bury Obamacare", that's very different from advocating the demise of the President.The sign in question:

http://i36.tinypic.com/2m6pxkh.jpg

El Sitherino
09-19-2009, 03:13 AM
Isn't it just tasteless in general to say something like that about Kennedy? I couldn't even criticize Reagan's presidency after he died without being accused of distaste.

Anyway, argue all you want about your hurt feelings but the truth is there are a lot of people in opposition to Barack Obama that are basing their intense animosity from racism and promote it through the use of racist material. If you can't see that then you're just as ignorant.

Darth Avlectus
09-19-2009, 03:19 AM
@jmac: Okay, so it was typefont emphasis of the sign itself implying further sentiment. Okay, fine and well. For that specific case I see what you're essentially saying, but don't over generalize it.

Totenkopf
09-19-2009, 04:17 AM
What's really irresponsible and stupid is the degree to which some people go to cast all or most dissenters of BO as essentially racist. There are racists/bigots of every color in the US, but they are mostly the fringe of society. I'm not surprised that media hacks like Mahr or Garafolo (to name a few) go that route and give BO and his team at least some credit for trying to distance themselves from that kind of dangerous and unnecessarily inflammatory rhetoric. Perhaps people like Pelosi should take their own advice about responsible use of language. Given the recent death of Kennedy, that sign was tasteless, but not even remotely racist.

El Sitherino
09-19-2009, 12:38 PM
What's really irresponsible and stupid is the degree to which some people go to cast all or most dissenters of BO as essentially racist.

No one is saying all or most aside from the truly outrageous. Even Jimmy Carter didn't say most opposition, only most of the intense opposition.

There are racists/bigots of every color in the US, but they are mostly the fringe of society.

I'm certain if you took the time to know me instead of always assume I'm a left-wing nutjob who's out to dispute any claim you'd know I've said this many times, as have most on this forum.

I'm not surprised that media hacks like Mahr or Garafolo

They're comedians, political comedians.

Perhaps people like Pelosi should take their own advice about responsible use of language.

We all know Pelosi is an overly emotional and often hormonally reactive witch.

Given the recent death of Kennedy, that sign was tasteless, but not even remotely racist.
I don't think anyone ever said it was racist.

Simply saying some things are racist does not imply people talking about it are saying everything at the protest is racist, that seems to be the biggest misunderstanding here.

Totenkopf
09-19-2009, 04:15 PM
No one is saying all or most aside from the truly outrageous. Even Jimmy Carter didn't say most opposition, only most of the intense opposition.

Face it, sithy, he's adding fuel to the fire b/c the dems are running ointo a lot of opposition on "public option" healthcare transformation (not reform). His goes in with the rest of the voices on the now fringe, formerly "self-proclaimed" main streamn media, that have sought to villify the other side by trying to tar the opposition w/ a wide brush (militia, nazis, racists, mob, ad nauseam).


I'm certain if you took the time to know me instead of always assume I'm a left-wing nutjob who's out to dispute any claim you'd know I've said this many times, as have most on this forum.

Frankly, since I've never labeled you as a left-wing nutjob in these forums, you seem to be taking our disagreement on issues rather personally. Besides, I could make the mirror "accusation" of you if you substitute "left-wing" w/"right-wing". Why it's hard for you to accept that we don't agree w/o making it personal is beyond me.


They're comedians, political comedians.

Ah, they meant nothing they said, it's just for money. kk. :rolleyes: Being a "comedian"/social commentator does not mean that like-minded people don't take them seriously and are influenced by their povs.


We all know Pelosi is an overly emotional and often hormonally reactive witch.

Point being? You and I may have a very low opinion of her, but she's not merely the "often overly emotional and hormonally reactive witch" at the back of the bus or in the street that you merely write off as crazy. That makes it more serious, unfortunatety.


I don't think anyone ever said it was racist.

Appartently jmac misread it. As to your statement, I rather doubt it (unless you meant no one posting in here has said "bury Obamacare" was racist), but your's is an unprovable statement otherwise. Frankly, it's irrelevant, though, b/c I only observed the sign wasn't remotely racist, not that anyone here said the actual sign was.


Simply saying some things are racist does not imply people talking about it are saying everything at the protest is racist, that seems to be the biggest misunderstanding here.

Actually, when the bulk of media outlets (who actually support the president) are indiscriminate in their reporting (that is, when they bother at all), it's hard to take seriously the claim that the "racism" accusation is aimed at a small minority of the protesters. We have in a president a man who has publically used irresponsible rhetoric to paint mosaics of a private sector out of control that needs the govt to rein them in to protect us on the healthcare issue b/c it's a centerpiece of his agenda. Frankly, the blind adulation of this man by many people is both puzzling and smacks of cult-of-personality politics.

Det. Bart Lasiter
09-19-2009, 05:18 PM
Appartently jmac misread it.

I was responding to the bit about how "bury Obama" would have been inflammatory to liberals instead of anyone with a shred of decency with that remark. I actually paid pretty close attention to the tea party bull**** on 9/12 for my own amusement and had already seen the sign.

Nedak
09-19-2009, 05:39 PM
Mass amounts of anti-Obama supporters ARE racists.

I know this first hand as part of my family are completely against him. While they claim it's his political views they don't agree, on countless occasions I have witnessed them call him the N-word while talking about him.

lUPMjC9mq5Y&feature=player_embedded

Mono_Giganto
09-19-2009, 06:09 PM
Even though that video likely killed more than a few of my brain cells, I've got to say, I think that reporter deserves a handshake.

Lord of Hunger
09-19-2009, 06:46 PM
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACISM!

This is purely the result of two inconsistent ideologies compelling to halves of a nation to view each other as evil. The hatred that the Right has for Obama is equivalent to the hatred that the Left has for Bush. It doesn't matter what either President did or does, it only matters that they represent each side.

Det. Bart Lasiter
09-19-2009, 07:14 PM
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACISM!http://i25.tinypic.com/11ka5vs.jpg

a simple case of political protesting carry on

clearly some people feel otherwise

Lord of Hunger
09-19-2009, 07:21 PM
What you are showing is merely an arbitrary symbol connected with an arbitrary ideology that is used to manipulate survival instincts for the benefit of our parasite class in Congress. This is "us vs. them" on the fundamental level, with "us" being whoever "agrees" with the arbitrary ideology I have adopted and "them" being however doesn't.

Samuel Dravis
09-19-2009, 07:24 PM
Obama on racism's connection to the opposition of his administration. (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/19/health/policy/19obama.html?hp)

Q
09-19-2009, 07:51 PM
President Obama said Friday that he did not believe his race was the cause of fierce criticism aimed at his administration in the contentious national debate over health care, but rather that the cause was a sense of suspicion and distrust many Americans have in their government.
Yeah. Make that a profound sense of suspicion and distrust.

Well, at least the president gets it, even when the media and Jimmy Carter don't.

Totenkopf
09-19-2009, 09:10 PM
Mass amounts of anti-Obama supporters ARE racists.


"Mass amounts" is a nebulous term. Do you have a hard %# available? I'm sure I could find more people who voted for him specifically b/c he's black and that was enough for them. So what? Nobody in this thread, as far as I've noticed, has denied the presence of racists w/in the US borders. What's in dispute is how prevelent it really is. That and the throwing around of the charge "racist" vs people who disagree with him on principle is a very unsavory practice. Saul Alinsky would be proud of this artificial controversey.

Nedak
09-19-2009, 09:18 PM
"Mass amounts" is a nebulous term. Do you have a hard %# available? I'm sure I could find more people who voted for him specifically b/c he's black and that was enough for them. So what? Nobody in this thread, as far as I've noticed, has denied the presence of racists w/in the US borders. What's in dispute is how prevelent it really is. That and the throwing around of the charge "racist" vs people who disagree with him on principle is a very unsavory practice. Saul Alinsky would be proud of this artificial controversey.

I'm talking about those who go to marches like the Tea Party. Uneducated individuals who won't admit to being racist because out of fear of persecution by non-racist individuals. This is based off of what I've seen, not some random accusation.

As far as Joe Wilson, he is/was a member of a few Neo-Confederate organizations that are notorious for being racist. So until I'm convinced otherwise, he's racist.

Totenkopf
09-19-2009, 09:27 PM
Nedak, a lot of people went to those marches. Are you asserting that most or all of them were racists? Or just the few that outfits like CNN/MSNBC et al focused on to file their biased and unbalanced reporting in an effort to smear all the protestors?

Re Joe Wilson.....well BO has said a lot of unflattering things about white people. So have Chris Rock, Bill Cosby, etc... Are they then racists too?

Jae Onasi
09-19-2009, 09:53 PM
The opposition boils down to MONEY, not racism. As soon as the Dem leadership figures that out and stops throwing around the racism charge, they'll actually be able to move forward on health care. I think Obama has figured it out, but Carter clearly missed the Clue Bus, and our "Beloved Speaker of the House" is a speed bump on the Clue Highway.

Q
09-19-2009, 09:59 PM
You know what the funniest part about all of this is?

Who's playing the race card?

Whitey. :dozey:

Nedak
09-19-2009, 10:59 PM
Nedak, a lot of people went to those marches. Are you asserting that most or all of them were racists? Or just the few that outfits like CNN/MSNBC et al focused on to file their biased and unbalanced reporting in an effort to smear all the protestors?
It would be illogical to think that EVERYBODY was racist.

Re Joe Wilson.....well BO has said a lot of unflattering things about white people. So have Chris Rock, Bill Cosby, etc... Are they then racists too?
What has Barack said against white people?

Also, Chris Rock and Bill Cosby say unflattering things against idiot white people, not all white people. Their hate for white people is the same for my hate for black gang members (white too, but it's an example).

Also, notice how Chris Rock, Obama, and Bill Cosby are not a part of groups that specifically target white people and wish that white people didn't exist.

The opposition boils down to MONEY, not racism. As soon as the Dem leadership figures that out and stops throwing around the racism charge, they'll actually be able to move forward on health care. I think Obama has figured it out, but Carter clearly missed the Clue Bus, and our "Beloved Speaker of the House" is a speed bump on the Clue Highway.
I completely agree that the opposition boils down to money and not racism.. The point is that a lot of republicans who don't hold any major power in their party (IE the ignorant trailer trash at the Tea Party) are racially motivated. In no way could I say that the entirety of the republican party is racist. If that's what you've assumed, I apologize.

You know what the funniest part about all of this is?

Who's playing the race card?

Whitey. :dozey:

Does it matter? Whites and blacks are equal, so either one should able to pull the "race card."

If you saw a black man being called the N-word would you stick up for him?

If you saw a white man being called harassed for being white, would you stand up for him?

Q
09-19-2009, 11:30 PM
I would try to do so in either case, yes, but that's not my point. My point is that these idiots will say anything to get this damned bill passed.

First it was "Let's get it passed before Sen. Kennedy dies, so he can die in peace" or something to that effect. Then it was "Let's get this bill passed to honor Sen. Kennedy's memory." Now it's "Anyone who opposes this bill is nothing but a piece of racist white trash." It's shameless, and so ridiculously transparent that it's pathetic.

What will they say next? Shall we get a pool started? :roleyess:

Det. Bart Lasiter
09-19-2009, 11:53 PM
As long as I can watch live feeds of racist white trash marching and/or rascal scootering around it's all good.

Totenkopf
09-19-2009, 11:59 PM
It would be illogical to think that EVERYBODY was racist.

Just as it's illogical to carelessly smear a group indiscriminantly b/c they don't agree with you. Doesn't mean that people don't try to do it anyay. Even your own earlier statement:
I'm talking about those who go to marches like the Tea Party. Uneducated individuals who won't admit to being racist because out of fear of persecution by non-racist individuals. This is based off of what I've seen, not some random accusation.
is so broad to leave one to wonder if you are branding all that went to the Tea Parties as racists and uneducated.


Also, Chris Rock and Bill Cosby say unflattering things against idiot white people, not all white people. Their hate for white people is the same for my hate for black gang members (white too, but it's an example).

No offense, but your making a lot of assumptions here yourself.


Also, notice how Chris Rock, Obama, and Bill Cosby are not a part of groups that specifically target white people and wish that white people didn't exist.

You mean like Robert Byrd and the KKK?


I completely agree that the opposition boils down to money and not racism.. The point is that a lot of republicans who don't hold any major power in their party (IE the ignorant trailer trash at the Tea Party) are racially motivated. In no way could I say that the entirety of the republican party is racist. If that's what you've assumed, I apologize.

Since the "ignorant trailer trash" at the Tea Party are a small microcosm of the opposition to BO, and given that the people at those events were dems, reps and independents, what's the real problem? In a country that values free speech, isn't it better to see where the individual loons of every stripe are. We spent 7-8 years seeing all the "trailer trash" on the left come out to protest Bush and co, it's only inevitable that this president will have to endure those from the other side. Btw, I think a lot of the left fringe "trailer trash" are making their way to Pgh for the G20.



Does it matter? Whites and blacks are equal, so either one should able to pull the "race card."
If you saw a black man being called the N-word would you stick up for him?
If you saw a white man being called harassed for being white, would you stand up for him?

Do you? Frankly, no one should be pulling the race card. BO learned the hard way w/Cambridge that "pulling the race card" only opens up an ugly can'o worms.

Nedak
09-20-2009, 01:14 AM
First it was "Let's get it passed before Sen. Kennedy dies, so he can die in peace" or something to that effect.
Show me a source of these quotes.


It's shameless, and so ridiculously transparent that it's pathetic.

What will they say next? Shall we get a pool started? :roleyess:

If your argument is correct, how is it any better than OBAMA IS A SOCIALIST! HE'S A FASCIST! DON'T GET THIS BILL PASSED OR HE'LL PUT ALL OF US IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS!

I mean, are you serious? lmao

Just as it's illogical to carelessly smear a group indiscriminantly b/c they don't agree with you. Doesn't mean that people don't try to do it anyay. Even your own earlier statement:

is so broad to leave one to wonder if you are branding all that went to the Tea Parties as racists and uneducated.
Actually yes, I do believe the majority of those people are idiots and don't know why they're even there.

No offense, but your making a lot of assumptions here yourself.
You made the assumption that they're all racist against whites. I "based on the knowledge I have" do not think they're racists against whites and don't see any proof to support that they are.

Please mr, show me where they have made a racist comment against whites.

And no, Glen Beck's mouth doesn't count as a source.

You mean like Robert Byrd and the KKK?
What does Robert Byrd have to do with this conversation? Are your purposely dodging my responses? Was the purpose of this statement to point a finger at me and go "THERE ARE RACIST PEOPLE IN YOUR ADMINISTRATION". Dude, I'm not a Democrat, this isn't my administration, I didn't even vote. If it was my choice Obama wouldn't be the president and neither would a lot of people in politics.

Since the "ignorant trailer trash" at the Tea Party are a small microcosm of the opposition to BO, and given that the people at those events were dems, reps and independents, what's the real problem? In a country that values free speech, isn't it better to see where the individual loons of every stripe are. We spent 7-8 years seeing all the "trailer trash" on the left come out to protest Bush and co, it's only inevitable that this president will have to endure those from the other side. Btw, I think a lot of the left fringe "trailer trash" are making their way to Pgh for the G20.

There was never such a huge amount of left believers that thought that Bush was the anti-christ. The reason this thread is even a topic is because of the gigantic amount of people who have this ridiculous belief that Obama is the anti-christ, and that he's a reincarnation of Hitler.

Do you? Frankly, no one should be pulling the race card. BO learned the hard way w/Cambridge that "pulling the race card" only opens up an ugly can'o worms.
Nice job with dodging the question.

Also, is it the race card when somebody openly calls Obama the N-word and is a part of anti-ethnic organizations?

This is what your logic would suggest in this scenario:

Me: "The KKK hates black people! They talk about it all the time!"

You: "Stop pulling the race card. BO learned the hard way w/Cambridge that "pulling the race card" only opens up an ugly can'o worms."

In the light of this subject (I might regret posting this because it will just distract you from answering my questions) I was reading up on the Decline of Rome, really reminds me of today ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Roman_Empire

Q
09-20-2009, 02:03 AM
Show me a source of these quotes.
Okay, I will if you will...
If your argument is correct, how is it any better than OBAMA IS A SOCIALIST! HE'S A FASCIST! DON'T GET THIS BILL PASSED OR HE'LL PUT ALL OF US IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS!
...or we can just agree that this is not the Senate Chambers and allow each other some leeway to speak figuratively instead of beating the semantic, literalist, lunatic horse to death like our favorite exile. ;)
I mean, are you serious? lmao
Yes, I am. The race card was played to death long before President Obama was elected. Because of its drastic overuse by the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, it's become little more than a tasteless cliché. No person of color with an iota of self-respect would touch it in a case like this, because that reduces it's effectiveness at times when it's actually warranted. I may not agree with the president, but I do respect him. That would cease were he ever to stoop to the level of playing the race card to get what he wants. And, as you can see, he isn't touching it. Of all of the liberal Democrats, he's the one who deserves to be president because he's obviously the smartest of the lot.

Darth Avlectus
09-20-2009, 02:49 AM
I'm talking about those who go to marches like the Tea Party. Uneducated individuals who won't admit to being racist because out of fear of persecution by non-racist individuals. This is based off of what I've seen, not some random accusation.
No hard numbers bearing on the larger respective crowd they belong to, but, you do have some wiggle room to make a generalization about a specific grouping with certain traits, as opposed to painting everyone one single stripe. Respectable.

As far as Joe Wilson, he is/was a member of a few Neo-Confederate organizations that are notorious for being racist. So until I'm convinced otherwise, he's racist.
Well, he could have said "untrue" instead of "liar" if he has read something exactly contrary to what the president was saying. Innocent until proven guilty as it were. If he has possibly separated himself from those groups, that could be a sign he is moving away from it, though.

As long as I can watch live feeds of racist white trash marching and/or rascal scootering around it's all good.
Rappin' dat country!
http://www.schemamag.ca/archives/Trailer%20Park%20Boys.jpg

Nedak
09-20-2009, 04:02 AM
Okay, I will if you will...
Fun, I haven't played this game since Elementary school.

What do you want and I'll give it to you.

Name some information you want backed up on, and I will do my best to track it down for you. :thmbup1:

...or we can just agree that this is not the Senate Chambers and allow each other some leeway to speak figuratively instead of beating the semantic, literalist, lunatic horse to death like our favorite exile.
Speak figuratively, but if it doesn't make sense you will be called on it.




Yes, I am. The race card was played to death long before President Obama was elected. Because of its drastic overuse by the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, it's become little more than a tasteless cliché.
I have a massive dislike for Jackson and Sharpton, and I am totally against PC thinking... There is no race card being pulled by Carter, I've seen this type of racism with my own eyes.


No person of color with an iota of self-respect would touch it in a case like this, because that reduces it's effectiveness at times when it's actually warranted. I may not agree with the president, but I do respect him. That would cease were he ever to stoop to the level of playing the race card to get what he wants. And, as you can see, he isn't touching it. Of all of the liberal Democrats, he's the one who deserves to be president because he's obviously the smartest of the lot.
The President appears to be trying his best to win the favor of the people... Saying that he thinks Wilson is racist would look bad to the people whom he's trying to win the favor of.


The point is that Wilson is racially motivated. His comment may not be racially motivated, but he himself is racist (this is based off of the organizations he belongs to. It would be like me belonging to the KKK, but saying that I love all races).

e-varmint
09-20-2009, 07:47 AM
The opposition boils down to MONEY, not racism.

It is also about the perception (which I believe to be correct) that government bureaucrats are inherently incompetent and cannot possibly avoid making the "crisis" much, much worse. Additionally, in my opinion, it is a stepping stone to more-of-the same in other aspects of our daily lives.

Back on topic: The media intentionally picked the wackos at the tea parties to present to their viewers. Why? Because they know that public support of an end to the IRS and the progressive income tax = Death To Liberalism in this country. Focusing on the wackos was specifically intended to create the perception that ONLY racists and bigots support Tax Reform. Not! I'm sorry, but that's playing the Race Card. Are they going to show "minority" supporters of the Fair Tax? No! You are only one of the enlightened if you support healthcare reform. Supporters of Tax Reform have to be painted as the embodiment of pure evil.
*cue footage of Kruschev's shoe*

There are plenty of people in this country of ALL ethnic backgrounds who "intensely" oppose the Obama Administration's politics and goals. I met Carter back in the 70's, and a couple of times in the 80's. He seemed much more.....reasonable......then. I don't begrudge the man his political views, but I sure wish he would use more caution when making statements to the press. Carter gives HIS opposition just as much ammunition as the tea-party wackos give THEIR opposition.

Totenkopf
09-20-2009, 01:30 PM
Actually yes, I do believe the majority of those people are idiots and don't know why they're even there.

Ok, so you're as guilty as Carter of smearing a group of people by charachter asssassination by association. You sure that's what you want to do?


You made the assumption that they're all racist against whites. I "based on the knowledge I have" do not think they're racists against whites and don't see any proof to support that they are.

No, you made that assumption. I merely stated that they've made negative comments about whites and asked then how that doesn't make them racists by your apparent definition (the inclusion of another's race w/in the context of commentary). What you're telling me is that you don't "feel" they are racists.


Please mr, show me where they have made a racist comment against whites.
And no, Glen Beck's mouth doesn't count as a source.

Ah, now you're making snarky assumptions. Nice.


What does Robert Byrd have to do with this conversation? Are your purposely dodging my responses? Was the purpose of this statement to point a finger at me and go "THERE ARE RACIST PEOPLE IN YOUR ADMINISTRATION". Dude, I'm not a Democrat, this isn't my administration, I didn't even vote. If it was my choice Obama wouldn't be the president and neither would a lot of people in politics.

I didn't assume you were democrat. More likely that you'd probably fall into a socialist or green party dynamic. You made a point about people belonging or having belonged to "racist organizations" and left him out. Only correcting your oversight. ;)



There was never such a huge amount of left believers that thought that Bush was the anti-christ. The reason this thread is even a topic is because of the gigantic amount of people who have this ridiculous belief that Obama is the anti-christ, and that he's a reincarnation of Hitler.

Again, you fail to quantify and just use a huge brush. I've seen some of these "wackos" on tv and most of them weren't brandishing signs calling BO the anti-Christ or even Hitler. Maybe you should watch stuff besides MSNBC and CNN. Given how obsessed they were with immature "tea bagging" comments, I'd hardly say their analysis and coverage was professional, let alone objective.



Also, is it the race card when somebody openly calls Obama the N-word and is a part of anti-ethnic organizations?

No, it's just bad manners when people hurl racial epithets at one another. As you yourself said, these are people with no power (why you claimed earlier that you weren't calling the whole republican party racist). Problem with the use of the race card by people of influence in govt circles and the media is the indiscriminate manner in which it is usually applied. Not that "we've made immense progress on race relations in this country, but there are a few stubborn holdouts", but rather....."See I told you America was racist!"



This is what my interpretation of your logic would suggest in this scenario:

Me: "The KKK hates black people! They talk about it all the time!"

You: "Stop pulling the race card. BO learned the hard way w/Cambridge that "pulling the race card" only opens up an ugly can'o worms."

fixed.


In the light of this subject (I might regret posting this because it will just distract you from answering my questions) I was reading up on the Decline of Rome, really reminds me of today ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Roman_Empire

Snark much? ;) Is this as salient as your point about the "socialist joker"? :dev9:

Jae Onasi
09-20-2009, 02:01 PM
I have a massive dislike for Jackson and Sharpton, and I am totally against PC thinking... There is no race card being pulled by Carter, I've seen this type of racism with my own eyes.
I don't doubt there's racism--as I've noted before, I've seen racism in many forms by many groups. It would be naive to think that race isn't a factor. However, I think the press and some of the liberals are over-emphasizing racism as a reason why people are going to these tea parties and objecting to the proposed health care plan.

@jmac--you cherry-picked one sign, which I will agree is arguably racist, out of many that were not racist. I'm still not getting why you think 'bury Obamacare' is the same as 'bury Obama'. I will agree that it is a completely tasteless sign, but taste got thrown out of the window years ago, unfortunately.

If you listen to the conservative talk shows, none of them talk about racism except maybe Savage, but I've never listened to his stuff personally, so I can't confirm that. They constantly hammer home two things that health care is going to do: a. raise taxes to outrageous (their term) levels, and b. ration care. These two things create a lot of concern. Unfortunately, what they ignore is that insurance already rations care (especially when they drop people who develop a serious disease), and private health care costs are going up so fast that the increase in taxes might actually be less than the increase in private health insurance premiums.

Instead of irresponsibly throwing out the 'opponents to Obama's health care plan must be racist', the Dems would do well to hammer home how the taxes are going to cost less money for everyone in the long run, and will prevent the insurance rationing going on right now. Obama's starting to do that now, and the rest of the Dems need to forego wasting their time on the racism charge and address the issues.

Nedak
09-20-2009, 02:21 PM
Ok, so you're as guilty as Carter of smearing a group of people by charachter asssassination by association. You sure that's what you want to do?
Even in the video, within the first minute there is a guy saying that abortions are only done by black people and then a woman in the crowed shouted "That's right!". So yes, I am smearing the majority of those people.

Also, I'm not sure what Carter said after what he said about Wilson, but if he states that everybody who doesn't agree with Obama is a racist, I'll disagree with that.

As far as a Tea Party, I will make the statement that a lot of them are racists. I never said all are racists, but I will make that judgment based on what I've seen and what I've heard.


No, you made that assumption. I merely stated that they've made negative comments about whites and asked then how that doesn't make them racists by your apparent definition (the inclusion of another's race w/in the context of commentary). What you're telling me is that you don't "feel" they are racists.
That is incorrect.

I don't have any reasonable proof to call them racists. Unless you want to count your opinion as proof. Thus, they are innocent until proven guilty.

Ah, now you're making snarky assumptions. Nice.
Pointing out my obviously sarcastic comment doesn't answer my request.




I didn't assume you were democrat. More likely that you'd probably fall into a socialist or green party dynamic. You made a point about people belonging or having belonged to "racist organizations" and left him out. Only correcting your oversight. ;)
This conversation isn't about him.

If we were talking about all political members that are a part of some sort of racist organization, THEN he would be relevant...but as of now he is irrelevant.



Again, you fail to quantify and just use a huge brush. I've seen some of these "wackos" on tv and most of them weren't brandishing signs calling BO the anti-Christ or even Hitler. Maybe you should watch stuff besides MSNBC and CNN.
I love how that only leaves Fox News, which I do watch on occasion.
But in reality I don't watch major news outlets often, as they're all bias. Yes, even Fox News.

I'd suggest that you stop watching mainstream news outlets and dig a little further.

Given how obsessed they were with immature "tea bagging" comments, I'd hardly say their analysis and coverage was professional, let alone objective.
The funny part is that I haven't seen any of the comments you're speaking of.

Also, don't act like Fox News is innocent to unprofessionalism.



No, it's just bad manners when people hurl racial epithets at one another.
I'm fairly certain that it's more than bad manners.

As you yourself said, these are people with no power (why you claimed earlier that you weren't calling the whole republican party racist). Problem with the use of the race card by people of influence in govt circles and the media is the indiscriminate manner in which it is usually applied. Not that "we've made immense progress on race relations in this country, but there are a few stubborn holdouts", but rather....."See I told you America was racist!"

I would say that a lot of people in the south and that live in rural cities are predominantly racist.

That holds for whites and blacks.




fixed.
Tell me how your interpretation.

I would love to be shown that there is some sort of deeper meaning behind it.



Snark much? ;) Is this as salient as your point about the "socialist joker"? :dev9:
Certainly not.

And I brought up your socialist joker because it's incorrect.

That's like me running around with a picture of the Green River Killer and under it saying "socialist". It's not clever, it doesn't make any sense.


If you listen to the conservative talk shows, none of them talk about racism except maybe Savage
Limbaugh does as well.

Both shows have a huge audience.

They constantly hammer home two things that health care is going to do: a. raise taxes to outrageous (their term) levels, and b. ration care. These two things create a lot of concern. Unfortunately, what they ignore is that insurance already rations care (especially when they drop people who develop a serious disease), and private health care costs are going up so fast that the increase in taxes might actually be less than the increase in private health insurance premiums.
The reality is that a lot of republicans are uninformed. Poor republicans think that Obama is going to raise their taxes, that they're going to receive horrible health care, and even to the extreme that Obama's health plan will kill them. While rich republicans are worried about their wallets and how it's going to effect their investments and their big pile of money.

Instead of irresponsibly throwing out the 'opponents to Obama's health care plan must be racist', the Dems would do well to hammer home how the taxes are going to cost less money for everyone in the long run, and will prevent the insurance rationing going on right now.
I completely agree with this statement.

The only reason I'm discussing racism is because of the topic.

I do agree that the dems are focusing too much on racism. My argument is that racism is still a factor in how some of the people think.

Totenkopf
09-20-2009, 04:22 PM
Even in the video, within the first minute there is a guy saying that abortions are only done by black people and then a woman in the crowed shouted "That's right!". So yes, I am smearing the majority of those people.

Well, at least you admit you're smearing the bulk of protestors by cherry-picking your examples.


Also, I'm not sure what Carter said after what he said about Wilson, but if he states that everybody who doesn't agree with Obama is a racist, I'll disagree with that.
As far as a Tea Party, I will make the statement that a lot of them are racists. I never said all are racists, but I will make that judgment based on what I've seen and what I've heard.

I guess if I watched MSNBC and CNN I'd be tempted to come to a similiar conclusion. :rolleyes:


That is incorrect.

What is unfortunately incorrect is your assumption that b/c you haven't heard something that it isn't true.


This conversation isn't about him.

Nor was this conversation originally about whether or not racism was truly extinguished in America. You've taken it there. As far as I've seen here, no one has stated that there is no racism in America. You, on the other hand, have gone so far as to label most people at those events as racist b/c of a few examples.


I love how that only leaves Fox News, which I do watch on occasion.
But in reality I don't watch major news outlets often, as they're all bias. Yes, even Fox News.
I'd suggest that you stop watching mainstream news outlets and dig a little further.

Actually, you're incorrect yet again. It only points out that some of the other outfits were juvenile in the content of their reporting. Perhaps you need to look outside leftist sources of info yourself to get a more complete picture of the world around you.


The funny part is that I haven't seen any of the comments you're speaking of.
Also, don't act like Fox News is innocent to unprofessionalism.

I can only guess you weren't paying close attention to the news at the time. I haven't spoken about Fox one way or another. However, Fox's main virtue (since you have a fixation w/them ;) ) is that you get the other side of the argument aired on their programs more often and consistently than you do on the 3 network news stations, CNN or MSNBC.


I'm fairly certain that it's more than bad manners.
I would say that a lot of people in the south and that live in rural cities are predominantly racist. That holds for whites and blacks.

No, uttering that kind of thing is generally merely uncouth and is, fortunately for people like that, generally protected by the First Amendment. As to your observation about the south, is that also just based on your gut instinct?


Tell me how your interpretation.
I would love to be shown that there is some sort of deeper meaning behind it.


First, should I understand from your example that all/most people at those events were KKK? Your example is as wrongheaded as your point about "socialist joker". My interpretation, based on your own admissions in this thread would be as follows:

You: All tea party people are racists.

Me: You're employing the race card by smearing everyone who doesn't agree with you. Even the BO admin learned w/Cambridge that creating an environment where "race card" allegations are made is counterproductive at best.

Btw, still not clear what your point about Gibbons was, lest it was just an irrelevant-to-the-topic aside.

My argument is that racism is still a factor in how some of the people think.
This much we at least agree on.

Jae Onasi
09-21-2009, 01:24 AM
Limbaugh does as well.Now, I haven't listened to Limbaugh every day--I can only take an occasional dose of him. However, I've never heard him say racist things. I have heard liberals saying he said racist things, but when checking back I've found out they usually misheard or misinterpreted something he said. Now, like I said, I haven't listened to everything he's said, so I may have missed something.


The reality is that a lot of republicans are uninformed. Poor republicans think that Obama is going to raise their taxes, that they're going to receive horrible health care, and even to the extreme that Obama's health plan will kill them.

In this bad economy, isn't increasing taxes a legitimate concern, however? In addition, if these 'poor republicans' happen to be on Medicaid and not receiving the best of care like 'paying patients', how can you expect them to trust that the gov't will provide excellent care? These are not uninformed concerns. They are very real, very legitimate concerns. I do have concerns myself about how we can provide top notch care when we get to universal care because we may well not have enough doctors to see all the newly insured. That is not an uninformed position--that's looking at the doctor/patient ratio in well-served and under-served areas and comparing that to what the ratio will look like under universal health care. We will have some waits in some areas, we will have to recruit heavily for underserved areas, we may not have enough doctors to cover everyone everywhere immediately, especially in the beginning of the program. I see a lot of things that will be part of the growing pains of a universal health care program, some of which Republicans are pointing out now, only to have those concerns poo-poo'd by the Democrats as being unsupportive, obstructionist, or at worst racist.

Darth Avlectus
09-21-2009, 01:48 AM
If you listen to the conservative talk shows, none of them talk about racism except maybe Savage, but I've never listened to his stuff personally, so I can't confirm that.

He no longer comes in where I'm at, but, actually if I know him and his style from years past he'd just go into mocking Jimmy Carter in this particular case.

So none of you semantic twisting weirdos attempt to twist what I say: this isn't to say both sides aren't eache showing a tinge of racism. Be it intense irrationality or throwing out the card. For the most part aside from flinging mud, it fundamentally boils down to money and government.

When it comes to 'transparency' so far, meh, only so far as the eye can see. To the best I can interpret on HR3200 :explode: , the original bill was not worded in such a way to exclude illegal aliens.

So if Obama was being honest when he said it wouldn't cover illegals, then that paints him as having not known or read up on it. Of course it is probably changing now (yet again) so this will be moot. :¬:

As to him discounting race as a primary factor and that it is a general mistrust of gov't, he hit the nail right on head. At least for the portion of his opposition that has been wrongfully accused of racism.

mimartin
09-21-2009, 12:26 PM
When it comes to 'transparency' so far, meh, only so far as the eye can see. To the best I can interpret on HR3200 :explode: , the original bill was not worded in such a way to exclude illegal aliens. Show me where Obama’s name is on this bill. H.R. 3200 (http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text)

The best I can tell H.R. 3200 is the House plan, not the President's plan.

I'd also ask you just who would pay the uninsured illegal aliens emergecy expenses if they are not included, but 1. everyone is too short sighted to look at the big picture & 2. That is a subject for another thread (although personally I do believe racism is involved in that one (both ways)).

Darth Avlectus
09-21-2009, 08:50 PM
^^^(Will cover H.C. separately if I do replay to that.)

Note: Before all you other people start up again, YES I know elements of racism exist in the opposition, as do they in the support; Don't hastily generalize your cherry picking. Thanks.

At mimartin: Obama's name isn't. All I was getting at as relates to the opposition: what he has said vs what ever is in the original bill vs whatever is currently (soon to be formerly) being proposed that shows inconsistency is going to add fuel to the fire of the opposition. I know this is not always a fair assessment but that's how the general population sees it regardless who is in office. They call it like so, and with that as a basis it's harsh but not necessarily unreasonable; so I would say don't jump to accuse the opposition. (not you personally mim, you are one of the more reasonable folks I've met online or otherwise ;))

So the only other thing would be what the president knows and when. I can almost hear you saying "assume as you may, you don't make accusations until you have good evidence." I'm not debating that, nor accusing.

People can certainly be going off of old info (which is not out of the picture since proposals are getting changed almost as often as underwear) :dev9:

I am contending the following conditionals:
1) if the president says something thinking he knew, no fault (except the weasel who changed it)
2) if he said something was currently yay/nay when he didn't actually know, that paints him unknowing, possibly naive
3) if the president knows what's currently proposed and claims contrary, that paints him dishonest
4) if he knew, claimed consistent (and murphy's laws are lenient at that moment), he's golden.

These always seem to be applicalbe. Sure, they *are* subject to error--nothing is entirely without this fault.

mimartin
09-21-2009, 10:23 PM
GTA:SWCity you seem confused about what President Obama said, “the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.” That has nothing to do with HR 3200 except where Joe Wilson tried to use this logic in his idiotic defense. Unless Obama has been demote to the House of Representatives, then HR 3200 has nothing to do with his statement.

So all 4 of your conditionals are false.

Totenkopf
09-21-2009, 10:37 PM
The big problem with BO's statement about illegals was that while the plans being formulated in Congress (BO is letting Congress take the lead and apparently hasn't crafted any bill himself, so to speak) claim to exclude illegals, no enforcement mechanism is allowed to garuntee it. If you can't check an illegal's status before deciding whether they qualify, they will get the care they are supposedly excluded from by the bill. Either BO knew this and was being disingenuous or he figured that by the time the final bill kicked in he'd have pulled a Reagan and amnestied all the current illegals, thus sidestepping the charge that any bill would give illegals insurance coverage.

mimartin
09-21-2009, 10:45 PM
No, No, No. He said what he said, but he is still wrong because he is Obama. Got it. It isn't racism it is Obamaism. :xp:

Totenkopf
09-21-2009, 10:59 PM
No, he's wrong b/c he's a politician......and we all know how they lie. :xp: :D

Darth Avlectus
09-22-2009, 12:22 AM
GTA:SWCity you seem confused about what President Obama said, “the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.” That has nothing to do with HR 300 except where Joe Wilson tried to use this logic in his idiotic defense. Unless Obama has been demote to the House of Representatives, then HR 3200 has nothing little and vaguely to do with his statement.
Fixed. :D

Ok. In that specific case, yes.

So all 4 of your conditionals are false.

Actually, not in the general sense. They could apply here: He's proposing but not crafting a bill, so it still stands to reason. Just now a new set of circumstances. ;)

mimartin
09-22-2009, 10:48 AM
I fail to see how Presidents Obama’s statement is even vaguely related to HR 3200. Had he said “the reforms ‘we’ are proposing…” then there may be a case for what is being implied. However the use of “I’m” is specific and does not imply any wiggle room. Analyzing that phrase and coming up with anything different is only wishful thinking on the opposition’s part.

. They could apply here: He's proposing but not crafting a bill, so it still stands to reason. Correct, but he does have a certain power over the finished product. He can either sign, not sign or veto the finished bill, so his input should be important to congress considering the controversy of the proposed bill (no matter the final version) and the difficulty that would lead to in overriding a Presidential veto.

Totenkopf
09-22-2009, 02:35 PM
Unfortunately, "he" doesn't appear to be proposing anything on his own. Presiding over whatever monstrosity that comes out of the process w/a essentially a red pencil or rubber stamp doesn't make him innocent of anything. Given that his next agenda after "comprehensive healthcare reform" is "comprehensive immigration reform" and the fact that he's likely to just apply a blanket amnesty (and we pretty much saw what a bad move that was by Reagan), that isn't an unfair interpretation of his MO. Think about all those potential democrat votes coming down the pike.....That and overlooking the whole "enforcement mechanism" issue which is rendered moot if he gets his likely immigration amnesty w/in the next year.

Web Rider
09-24-2009, 01:13 PM
Unfortunately, "he" doesn't appear to be proposing anything on his own. Presiding over whatever monstrosity that comes out of the process w/a essentially a red pencil or rubber stamp doesn't make him innocent of anything. Given that his next agenda after "comprehensive healthcare reform" is "comprehensive immigration reform" and the fact that he's likely to just apply a blanket amnesty (and we pretty much saw what a bad move that was by Reagan), that isn't an unfair interpretation of his MO. Think about all those potential democrat votes coming down the pike.....That and overlooking the whole "enforcement mechanism" issue which is rendered moot if he gets his likely immigration amnesty w/in the next year.


Aside from Faux News or some other trash rag that does nothing but make things up or spout out opinions, could you kindly give me a link to where Obama has said "amnesty for all" or at the very least "amnesty for some", and yes, I want to see the word "Amnesty" in his words. Not something that sounds like it, or could be interpreted as it, but actually him saying he'll give or he wants to give Amnesty to illegal immigrants. Maybe I just missed it, Google is just turning up right-wing blogs saying he will without quoting sources.

Totenkopf
09-24-2009, 02:22 PM
Frankly, given this administration's aversion to transparency and for parsing, I'm sure he wouldn't come out and say "I hereby declare that all formerly illegal residents in the US are now de facto citizens". Now, since I didn't claim he definitely will, but conditioned it with "likely", I'm under no obligation to provide a smoking gun to justify my gut reaction. Further, as this is not a court of law, the concept "innocent till proven guilty" is irrelevant as he's not being formally charged with anything. If you wish to understand this man, look at the people who actually surround him (not just the ones he rattled off during the campaign). And don't bother trying to reference McCain b/c he was on the same side of the immigration issue as BO in the big pic, so would have been just as bad on that issue. You should be well aware that little is seldom handed to you on a silver platter when talking politics, where vague language is often the rule and even life's blood of politicians. If you wish to find the words "Obama/amnesty", you can do your own search. ;)

Web Rider
09-24-2009, 03:51 PM
Frankly, given this administration's aversion to transparency and for parsing, I'm sure he wouldn't come out and say "I hereby declare that all formerly illegal residents in the US are now de facto citizens". Now, since I didn't claim he definitely will, but conditioned it with "likely", I'm under no obligation to provide a smoking gun to justify my gut reaction. Further, as this is not a court of law, the concept "innocent till proven guilty" is irrelevant as he's not being formally charged with anything. If you wish to understand this man, look at the people who actually surround him (not just the ones he rattled off during the campaign). And don't bother trying to reference McCain b/c he was on the same side of the immigration issue as BO in the big pic, so would have been just as bad on that issue. You should be well aware that little is seldom handed to you on a silver platter when talking politics, where vague language is often the rule and even life's blood of politicians. If you wish to find the words "Obama/amnesty", you can do your own search. ;)

So in short: Everything you say has no foundation in reality and is only your own personal paranoia and fear-mongering, but you still want us all to believe everything you say as though it's all tru because "politics is complicated".

I'm sorry, gut reactions don't count here. You think someone is going to do something, you find where they said it, hired people who said it, supported it, or was against people who were against it. You find it, you show it. You don't say: "Well BO is a liberal and he's friends with liberals and liberals want amnesty for illegals." And then defend it by accusing others of not understanding the system that your gut apparently has an ear for.

So, if you'd like to defend your point, do it. If you'd like to do so by saying "It was just IMO." Fine. Don't do it by saying I don't understand politics.

Jae Onasi
09-24-2009, 05:09 PM
OK, let's not take this thread off topic by discussing liberal vs. conservative media, unless they relate to the topic. We don't need another version of last fall's discussion. If there is a question on whether someone is stating opinion vs. fact, please ASK them for clarification. We start getting heated rhetoric when people start making assumptions about another person's intentions (which may or may not be erroneous) and then makes a response based on that assumption. Let's keep focused on the subject and make sure to word things carefully so they aren't taken the wrong way. Thanks.