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Lord of Hunger
09-22-2009, 09:06 PM
Here's one I bet no one has thought of.

So who do you think would win in a fight?

Conditions:

Atton has been trained by the Exile and has a lightsaber. He also has a blaster.

HK-47 has his own weaponry and has been fully repaired, including assassination protocols.

Neither is protecting anything. They are just trying to kill each other.

Feel free to choose whatever setting (location) you wish.

Mindtwistah
09-23-2009, 01:27 AM
Hard one. HK-47 has killed loads of Jedi, but on the same time, Atton has too, so he probably know their weaknesses and how to avoid facing the same fate as them.

Really depends on the battle. If it's face-on-face, Atton would probably win. Lightsaber>Blaster. If it's covert attacks and so on, HK would probably win. Filling his room with gas or sniping him from 120 km distance>Lightsaber.

VarsityPuppet
09-23-2009, 02:22 AM
Well, Hk-47 is an assassin droid of unrivaled sophistication...and Atton is a human, who's force sensitive, but knows alot about killing jedi, as does Hk-47.

Now, faulty logic would try to argue that HK-47 would kill Atton simply because Atton is a jedi.

If anything, Atton being a Jedi isn't any bit of an advantage, because likely Hk-47 knows how to counter any jedi tricks Atton might throw up. Atton's knowledge of how to kill jedi however does give him some edge: he might have some insight as to the tactics that Hk might resort to to take him out. And everyone knows that when you can anticipate your enemy's next course of action, you've got the upper hand.

Now, I think Atton's a smart guy.. and Hk-47 is a well-programmed killing machine. While HK might have the upper hand with precise assassination protocols, Atton's got the human advantage of innovation.

My vote goes for Atton. He's got that "I've got a bad feeling about this" sense. I've a feeling if HK were to try to assassinate him from afar, his attempt would be foiled by that terrible piece of dialog. :)

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
09-23-2009, 05:04 AM
HK? At his peak? No contest. Atton would lose.

HK was created for the very purpose of killing jedi. He is also a droid, with much faster reflexes etc than a human. He can also operate with different parts of his body chopped off. (which happened to him quite a bit when fighting jedi).

He's got that "I've got a bad feeling about this" sense. I've a feeling if HK were to try to assassinate him from afar, his attempt would be foiled by that terrible piece of dialog.
Personally, i believe his "cowardly intuition" (:xp:) as Exile possibly calls it is just his force sensitivity manifesting itself when he wasnt a jedi. When Atton becomes a jedi, surely his danger sense would be enhanced quite a bit, but HK would have dealt with fully fledged jedi who would have danger senses just as sensitive, if not higher than Atton's. (Jedi Masters)

But i think a much more defining factor would be their training. HK was personally programmed by Revan, who had killed far more jedi than either HK or Atton. Atton would have been trained in some special assassin facility, where the training would have ultimately also come down from Revan. Who do you think Revan would have given better Jedi killing skills to? His personal unique killing droid? Or his indoctrinated lackeys?

There's a reason why HK was Revan's personal killing machine, and not some elite meatbag assassin. I believe that reason was HK's extraordinary efficiency at the job. Remember, if HK wasnt as effective (useful) as his lackeys, Revan would've disposed of him. (a principle that he taught Bane in Path of Destruction) Yet Revan had HK all the way up till when he was betrayed by Malak.

Demongo
09-23-2009, 11:35 AM
HK would win. It would be a hard fight but HK would win. The way he tells the Exile how to kill jedi leaves no doubt about it. Atton only said things like....."I was good at it.","It was easy."
No offense Atton:xp:
I can't really explain things well, but I think Atton would die.

Forogorn
09-23-2009, 06:19 PM
This is a very hard decision indeed. HK-47 would definately kill Atton if he is not Force Sensitive, but in this case, he is. Atton has a mass knowledge of killing Jedi, but so does HK-47, though HK-47 is not a Jedi, so this just gave HK-47 an advantage. He is able to snipe from far away, and since his assassination protocols is active, he now has a better advantage. Atton is Force Sensitive, so he can force push HK-47 or disable him by shocking him. He can also try to cut HK-47, but HK-47 can probably snipe Atton before he can get to him. Atton can probably dodge the shot though. If the situation was that the Exile ordered HK-47 to assassinate Atton, and if the location was within the Ebon Hawk, HK-47 can unexpectedly blast Atton from the behind, he would not be able to sense this betrayal coming because HK is a droid not human. I'd say HK-47 would be the victor.

Darth Scorcher
09-23-2009, 07:53 PM
HK-47 would win because.............it's HK-47!!!!

TKA-001
09-23-2009, 11:18 PM
I say Atton wins... I see no reason to believe that HK-47 is the ultimate Jedi-killing badass that everyone seems to think he is. Yes, HK was sent to kill Jedi by Revan, but we don't have any reason to believe these Jedi were experienced Jedi Masters or anything like that. What's more, HK admits that Jedi have beat him in fights more than once, and I can't see any reason to believe that he's better than Sith at killing Jedi, because to a trained Force-user with a lightsaber, what makes HK different from just another droid with a blaster? Yes, he has "unrivaled sophistication". Yes, he's armed to the teeth. Yes, he has the best in assassination and combat programming of any droid known in his era. But there have been tons of examples in Star Wars where being a really great fighter who's very well-armed and well-trained doesn't mean squat to a Jedi. A very obvious example from the films is Jango Fett, who is pretty much unquestionably considered to be the greatest bounty hunter alive at that time, get killed by Mace Windu just as easily as any common battle droid.

Furthermore, KotOR II itself gives a pretty good example of this, where we have three HK-50 units (which are arguably at least as effective in combat as HK-47) fail to kill the Exile on Telos. The Exile who doesn't even have a lightsaber yet. That doesn't speak of great anti-Jedi capabilities to me. HK-47 is not close to being a serious Jedi hunter like Grievous.

Bottom line: Atton's in danger, but it's nothing he can't handle.

or sniping him from 120 km distance>Lightsaber.
Seriously, is this a joke? I ask because 120 kilometres is almost the entire diameter of the first Death Star. You can't snipe somebody over a horizon.

Demongo
09-27-2009, 05:27 PM
I think I've changed my mind.
YOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! would win:lol:

Mandalore The Shadow
09-27-2009, 05:35 PM
Atton would definatly win if he had a lightsaber HK wouldnt stand a chance with just a blaster

Astor
09-27-2009, 05:42 PM
I think it would be very close.

Atton is after all, an ex Sith Commando, which, coupled with any potential Jedi training would make him a deadly opponent. Yet HK-47 is trained to take down Jedi.

Either of them could win, but not without seriously wounding (or damaging, as the case may be) their opponent.

Mindtwistah
09-27-2009, 06:01 PM
Seriously, is this a joke? I ask because 120 kilometres is almost the entire diameter of the first Death Star. You can't snipe somebody over a horizon.
"Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope"
Now why would he say that if it was impossible? :)

Darth Scorcher
09-27-2009, 06:34 PM
What your describing is love, I don't think love is an attack. :lol:

Demongo
09-27-2009, 06:39 PM
"Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope"
Now why would he say that if it was impossible? :)

Oh lol very true. Never thougt of that:D

Lord Milk
09-27-2009, 06:47 PM
Well, If we look at canon, the exile in TSL is a light side female, which means that she Malachor is destroyed at the end of the game, which means she is able to stay on with Atton and train him. Remember Kreia says, "They were the Lost Jedi you know..." Which includes Atton. So, my verdict:

Atton(scoundrel)vs.HK-47=HK-47
Atton(LostJedi)vsHK-47=Atton

EDIT: Oh and you all keep talking about Jedi training Atton had....The only training he had in regards to the force was to block Jedi from getting into his head and using force powers against him. I'm pretty sure HK-47 isn't a secret Jedi robot, so throw that out the window.

TKA-001
09-27-2009, 08:52 PM
"Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope"
Now why would he say that if it was impossible? :)
To answer your question, the most likely explanation is that it was a creative liberty taken for the sake of his metaphor, rather than something likely to be taken more literally, such as a recollection of a previous mission. And again, how can you shoot someone over a horizon?

Fredi
09-27-2009, 10:47 PM
HK-47 was created to hunt Jedi's so ... HK all the way.

Delta 62
09-28-2009, 06:01 PM
HK.....Even if Atton is force sensitive HK is a Jedi Assaniation Droid

Lord Milk
09-28-2009, 11:35 PM
HK.....Even if Atton is force sensitive HK is a Jedi Assaniation Droid

Yeah but that doesn't mean he can kill any Jedi. That's like saying HK could beat the **** out of Anakin.

Laura Muffin
09-29-2009, 06:03 PM
*inhales deeply*

.......

ATTOOOOOOOOOOOON~~~~!!!!!! <3

Yeah he'd so win 'cause he's hot and has a lightsaber, as someone mentioned earlier..and lightsabers are indeed > blasters.

Astor
09-29-2009, 06:28 PM
Yeah he'd so win 'cause he's hot and has a lightsaber, as someone mentioned earlier..and lightsabers are indeed > blasters.

I didn't know being 'hot' counted towards one's effectiveness in combat.

Of course, if we're talking about hot in the conventional sense, i'm pretty sure HK-47's components generate far more heat than a meatbag. :p

VarsityPuppet
09-29-2009, 06:33 PM
*inhales deeply*

.......

ATTOOOOOOOOOOOON~~~~!!!!!! <3

Yeah he'd so win 'cause he's hot and has a lightsaber, as someone mentioned earlier..and lightsabers are indeed > blasters.

Hard to argue with solid logic like that XP

What about humans vs. machines? who wins there?

ForeverNight
09-29-2009, 10:55 PM
HK47 would win.

Reasoning? His reflexes are faster than humanly possible. In the time it would take for Atton to realize WITH THE FORCE that he's being shot at, HK should've already kill him.

Why?

HK is a machine, a very high quality machine. He has processors that are likely going to be running very fast and with multiple cores. So, we have a very fast multi-threaded killing machine that's stronger than humanly possible and faster than humanly possible... against a Jedi.

HK kills Jedi. That is his primary function, to hunt and kill Jedi. While the Aratech metaphor may have been stretched, we still know that he can see further than a human and can adjust for things that a human couldn't.

For example, HK would be able to figure out how much particle drift there would be on his shot at a range of... let's say 25 miles. From there he can adjust for it AS HE FIRES. So, he fires the gun -multiple times in order to compensate for Atton's ability as a Jedi to see things before they happen- and pretty soon we have a Jedi that's either dead with a confused expression on his face, or simply confused.

So, HK continues firng at Atton from that range until Atton figures out what's going on. Now, HK can retreat and set up some mines to detnonate when Atton is standing on them or stay put and use melee.

Ah, you say, but HK can't USE melee weaponry!

Yeah, he can. He has fully articulate hands and the strength beyond mortals, he can use swords. And, since he can think faster than Atton, he can hold his own/over come the smuggler that I never use when I can help it.

Anyway, now let's give HK a MAC-11 and tell him to close the gap.

Not even Obi-wan could defend from that. Blaster bolts move FAR too slowly and repeat too slowly.

Anyway, (tl;dr) HK wins because he is more than human, which is Atton's basic constraint.

Laura Muffin
09-30-2009, 09:11 AM
If HK is so strong, why did the Exile and even T3M4!!!!!! kick the ass of THREE HK50 droids at a time?? HMMMM???

Sounds to me like HK's are shiny and fast, but jedis (and..uh..jedi droids?) are way better.


BOOM

Delta 62
09-30-2009, 12:08 PM
Yeah but that doesn't mean he can kill any Jedi. That's like saying HK could beat the **** out of Anakin.

Actually i think he probably could depending on his recources and surroundings :tank1:

p.s. they were HK-50's Laura, Not a kick-ass HK-47 made by Revan

ForeverNight
09-30-2009, 12:57 PM
@Laura: IIRC there's a cut line in TSL where HK-47 remarks that the newer HK-50 Units are inferior to him.

Also, one has to remember, HK-47 is NOT a mass produced droid, he's a singular one of a kind built by Revan droid IIRC. With HK-50 being mass produced, it's obvious that there would have to be some skimping in the design/creation in order for them to be created in large numbers.

Laura Muffin
09-30-2009, 08:28 PM
Robots are lame. Meatbags ftw

ForeverNight
09-30-2009, 09:56 PM
Nice arguement. :xp:

There's no way around it though, HK-47 thinks faster than Atton, he has a multi-track mind allowing him to think of more than 1 thing at a time with no loss of ability, he is physically stronger than Atton, he shows an ability to think for himself -as evidenced by his solo missions-; and he is faster than Atton aside from when Atton uses Force Speed.

Anyway you cut it, Atton is screwed.

Delta 62
10-01-2009, 11:32 AM
as i said HK all the way.....and if robots suck why are the always kicking human butt?

TKA-001
10-01-2009, 02:40 PM
@Laura: IIRC there's a cut line in TSL where HK-47 remarks that the newer HK-50 Units are inferior to him.
HK-47 saying something doesn't prove jack. Furthermore, he hates everything about the HK-50s for a few insignificant reasons which make him look extremely prissy for an assassin droid (their color, "lack of subtlety" as if the systematic disabling of the Harbinger and disposal of everyone at Peragus wasn't subtle, and their use of "organic" instead of meatbag"), so I seriously doubt he would admit that there's anything that makes them equal/superior to him even if he was specifically aware of such a thing.

Also, one has to remember, HK-47 is NOT a mass produced droid, he's a singular one of a kind built by Revan droid IIRC.
The HK-50s were designed by Revan as well (KotOR Campaign Guide).

With HK-50 being mass produced, it's obvious that there would have to be some skimping in the design/creation in order for them to be created in large numbers.
Why? We are never given any reason to believe this in the game. No real technical differences between 47 and the 50s are really mentioned except their proficiency with languages (IIRC HK-47 boasts that he knows 600 languages, and the HK-50 boasts that he knows 6,000).

Reasoning? His reflexes are faster than humanly possible.
And where does the technical information which states this come from? Or is this simply an assumption that all droids are faster than is possible for humans on your part? Moreover, Jedi reflexes are above and beyond normal humans as well.

HK kills Jedi. That is his primary function, to hunt and kill Jedi.
Actually, his primary function is to assassinate people, not Jedi, although he was used for both purposes with varied success.

HK would be able to figure out how much particle drift there would be on his shot at a range of... let's say 25 miles.
25 miles is is approximately 40 kilometres, which is twice as long as a Super Star Destroyer. No sniper rifle can shoot that ****ing far, especially not over a horizon.

in order to compensate for Atton's ability as a Jedi to see things before they happen- and pretty soon we have a Jedi that's either dead with a confused expression on his face, or simply confused.
Or Atton could simply duck, or deflect the shots with his lightsaber... Just because a laser is fired from a "Jedi killer" doesn't make them any more effective than a laser fired by any schmuck with a gun.

Now, HK can retreat and set up some mines to detnonate when Atton is standing on them or stay put and use melee.
So all of a sudden Atton's Jedi precognition magically disappears so he can't see, detect, or predict the presence of the mines until he's on top of them?

Yeah, he can. He has fully articulate hands and the strength beyond mortals, he can use swords.
He can? When and where does HK ever use a melee weapon, or is at least stated to be able to use one?

And, since he can think faster than Atton,
Just because he's a droid? Atton's reflexes as a Jedi rate him far above and beyond an ordinary person also.


Anyway, now let's give HK a MAC-11 and tell him to close the gap.

Not even Obi-wan could defend from that. Blaster bolts move FAR too slowly and repeat too slowly.
I seem to recall Obi-Wan simply using the Force to stop bullets Matrix-style in the CW Cartoon. Furthermore, if bullets would be better-used against Jedi, why are they never used against them (or anyone)? Besides, why can't a Jedi just jump out of the firing arc of the bullets or something?

ForeverNight
10-01-2009, 06:18 PM
25 miles is is approximately 40 kilometres, which is twice as long as a Super Star Destroyer. No sniper rifle can shoot that ****ing far, especially not over a horizon.

IIRC horizon line is 35 miles, so 25 is a reasonable shot, you'd have to have great optics, but you can do it.

The HK-50s were designed by Revan as well (KotOR Campaign Guide).

One of those things that I wish they'd mention in game as opposed to only in other material only for the pnp RPG that I have no interest in....

I seem to recall Obi-Wan simply using the Force to stop bullets Matrix-style in the CW Cartoon. Furthermore, if bullets would be better-used against Jedi, why are they never used against them (or anyone)? Besides, why can't a Jedi just jump out of the firing arc of the bullets or something?

Not seen the CW Cartoon. As for why not, I dunno, why don't they do that with blasters? Maybe because bullets move FAST. You fired a gun, it hits the target much sooner than it does with a blaster in Star Wars.

So all of a sudden Atton's Jedi precognition magically disappears so he can't see, detect, or predict the presence of the mines until he's on top of them?

It was a quick idea off the top of my head. Yeah, he would figure it out, but it was just something I thought up while half-asleep. Sorry for that.

He can? When and where does HK ever use a melee weapon, or is at least stated to be able to use one?

Look at his joints, look at his hands! Those are like a human's, he has joints in the right places to hold a melee weapon, he holds a blaster -which has a grip not unlike a melee weapon's- and has a strength of 16, that's higher than anybody else's beginning strength! If he COULDN'T hold and use a melee weapon than it would be a gigantic oversight on Revan's part.

And where does the technical information which states this come from? Or is this simply an assumption that all droids are faster than is possible for humans on your part? Moreover, Jedi reflexes are above and beyond normal humans as well.

Alright, the last bit was outta there, I dunno where it came from... prolly just getting overeager to get out the post in the middle of class, I'll concede that he is likely NOT physically faster than Atton.

Forogorn
10-01-2009, 11:27 PM
Possible Outcomes:

-Atton shocks HK-47 and disables him.
-HK-47 shoots Atton unexpectedly from the back.
-Atton Force pushes HK-47 into an area with water leaving HK to his doom.
-HK-47 goes close to Atton and throws a detonator to blow both of them up.
-Atton can slice HK-47 in half.
-HK-47 can shoot Atton and lie that it was a friendly fire/kill.

There are many more possible ways for both to be the victor, but I can't list them all.

TKA-001
10-03-2009, 10:08 PM
IIRC horizon line is 35 miles, so 25 is a reasonable shot, you'd have to have great optics, but you can do it.
Why is twenty-five miles a reasonable shot? Besides, isn't the length of "the" horizon dependent on where you are?

One of those things that I wish they'd mention in game as opposed to only in other material only for the pnp RPG that I have no interest in....
Doesn't matter. It still exists.

Not seen the CW Cartoon.
Clone Wars Chapter 8, I believe. You can see an image of it here. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Deflection#cite_note-TSW3-0)

Maybe because bullets move FAST. You fired a gun, it hits the target much sooner than it does with a blaster in Star Wars.
Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross-Sections, Page 3: "Energy weapons fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The visible 'bolt' is a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed. Therefore, targets can explode instants before the 'bolt' actually arrives." That sounds about as fast as a bullet to me, but I dunno.

Look at his joints, look at his hands! Those are like a human's, he has joints in the right places to hold a melee weapon, he holds a blaster -which has a grip not unlike a melee weapon's- and has a strength of 16, that's higher than anybody else's beginning strength! If he COULDN'T hold and use a melee weapon than it would be a gigantic oversight on Revan's part.
I'm not saying it's physically impossible or anything, just that HK apparently does not have bladed-combat in his programming, since we've seen no actual evidence of it.

ForeverNight
10-04-2009, 10:10 AM
Why is twenty-five miles a reasonable shot? Besides, isn't the length of "the" horizon dependent on where you are?

Why is it reasonable? Because he could actually make the shot with good enough optics and with eyes that are truly as sensitive as they should be. And, while the horizon does depend on where you are, IIRC in flat areas it's ~35 Miles.

Doesn't matter. It still exists.

Yeah, I'm just saying that I wish it was in the video game as well as just another D20 source book.

Clone Wars Chapter 8, I believe. You can see an image of it here.

Thanks! However, Obi Wan knew it was coming -at least that's what I get from the image- so it's moot point, I would like to see him do it against a bullet he get's 'surprised' by... or, at least as surprised as Atton can.

I'm not saying it's physically impossible or anything, just that HK apparently does not have bladed-combat in his programming, since we've seen no actual evidence of it.

How hard is it to add to his programming? And, while we've seen no evidence, we also must remember that his memory has been damaged most severely, though the game you can't active the Assassination Protocols, who knows what goodies lie in wait there?

Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross-Sections, Page 3: "Energy weapons fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The visible 'bolt' is a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed. Therefore, targets can explode instants before the 'bolt' actually arrives." That sounds about as fast as a bullet to me, but I dunno.

So why, pray tell, is it that it's not until the bolt arrives that the damage is done in the movies? Also, that's Attack of the Clones, what about ~4000 years prior?

Visas
11-10-2009, 01:47 PM
Atton of course.

Totenkopf
11-10-2009, 07:23 PM
Possible Outcomes:..........

There are many more possible ways for both to be the victor, but I can't list them all.

Too true. I favor HK over Atton, but it really could go either way depending on the circumstances.

capnnerefir
11-10-2009, 10:24 PM
You're all forgetting something very, very important: this is Star Wars. And in Star Wars, the Rule of Cool is far more important than any law of physics or logic. That's how we get things like ships exploding in space even though that's not possible due to lack of oxygen. Or the fact that there's some sort of underwater tunnel that goes through the core of the planet Naboo even though the core of a planet is really, really hot. So it comes down to this: what would be cooler?

So, who is cooler? Atton, who would be just another Jedi, or HK, the psychotic robot killing machine? HK, no contest. Ergo, HK would win (baring any plot concerns, which surpass even the Rule of Cool and have resulted in things like the Death Star being blown up and Darth Maul getting killed).

So, HK would win because he's cooler, which is a perfectly valid reason in Star Wars.

playloud
11-14-2009, 04:14 AM
HK, no contest. Ergo, HK would win (baring any plot concerns, which surpass even the Rule of Cool and have resulted in things like the Death Star being blown up and Darth Maul getting killed).

...or Jar Jar surviving during The Phantom Menace.

Tobias Reiper
11-17-2009, 02:19 AM
Considering they're party members, they wouldn't fight, and HK wouldn't have his assassination protocols by that point because of HK-50, so that's a major disadvantage.
Overall, I say Atton, because he was who I always brought with me, thus major level and skill advantage.

Andychs
11-19-2009, 10:22 AM
A jedi is always more superior then a driod since a jedi will have the advantage of using the force.

so hard for HK to sneak up on him, or have a chance imho.

one thing The Clone Wars have taught me... driods are a dime a dozen, so easy to kill...

more interestingly... who will win? HK-47 or General Gervious (sp)?