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Ten-96
09-26-2009, 01:43 PM
I've been away for a while but I'm back. I noticed that this hadn't been posted here yet and wanted to bringit up.


Kids being taught to sing praises to Obama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zrsl8o4ZPo)



I was outraged when I saw this on the Drudge Report. I was even more outraged when the Superintendant of the School System responded as if there was nothing wrong with what was shown in the video. I think the thing that made it the most offensive to me is the line, "...All are equal in his sight."


Your thoughts?

Zerimar Nyliram
09-26-2009, 01:52 PM
What's ironic is that I created a song set to the same tune when he won the election:

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of Obama
He is not willing to drill so we may as well ride llamas
Gonna weaken our defenses which is sure to please Osama
The Messiah marches on

And this teacher didn't even get the melody right. She just had them keep repeating the first two lines over and over again with different lyrics. Also, "we all doth say 'Hooray!'" is improper grammar as "doth" is a third-person singular verb.

Darth InSidious
09-26-2009, 01:54 PM
Why not? Don't children in your country already have to 'pledge alleigience to the flag' every morning? Singing hymns to your President doesn't seem that much further along the same furrow.

Zerimar Nyliram
09-26-2009, 02:30 PM
It's infinitely different. The flag is a symbol of our nation and the president is a single person. Teaching kids respect for the presidency is one thing, but making them revere him like some sort of savior is reminiscent of a dictatorship. We pledge our allegiance to our country through its proudest symbol, but never to any of our leaders or any human being at all. In fact, they are understood to serve us, not the other way around. They don't embody the spirit of the country.

I'm trying to find the video of classroom kids in Nazi Germany singing songs to their "savior" Adolf Hitler for comparison, but I can't seem to find it.

[Edit] Okay, the aforementioned clip can be found toward the end of this video (not the video I was looking for, but it'll do):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjLmpoKgSG8

Totenkopf
09-26-2009, 03:17 PM
This is typical of the mind dead zombies who glorify Obama. Refreshing to see that not all libs are comfortable with this kind of politization of the schools. Imagine them singing like this about Bush, Reagan or even the Pope and the uberlibs'd be pissing themselves in outrage. While I'm not blaming BO for any of this, curious that he doesn't come out and discredit this type of behavior in the public schools. Though the tape in question is from Feb, this type of crap was going on pre-election (as evidenced by ZN's link). The recent flap over BO's planned speech to the schools only reinforced this image due to the nature of the accompanying "educational materials" the Dept of Ed planned to include.

Bimmerman
09-26-2009, 04:43 PM
I'm going to just say this: you conservatives are being hypocrites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWvIOPiKFrs Source: Jesus Camp documentary. Go rent it and fear for the future.

So, religiously indoctrinated children worshiping President Bush is ok, but children simply praising President Obama is not?

Hypocrites.

Both videos show children being brainwashed, but since it's liberals doing it, now there's an outrage. Go find something actually important to get hot and bothered by, or at least recognize the hypocrisy.

Darth InSidious
09-26-2009, 04:48 PM
And now that you've posted that video, I suppose you're fair game to be called a hypocrite too?

Just checking.

Samuel Dravis
09-26-2009, 05:51 PM
Personally I believe that this example is worse than the Jesus Camp incident mainly because it is a public school doing it. While private political indoctrination of children is offensive and reprehensible, a publicly-funded school should never be advocating political opinions.

Zerimar Nyliram
09-26-2009, 06:06 PM
Yeah, I don't know how anyone can use that video to point out "you conservatives" are hypocrites. If all conservatives followed the same religion, went to the same church, preached the same theology, and advocated the same (fanatical) evangelic methods as can be seen in this video, then your argument might be valid. But since that isn't the case, that was a lousy attempt at a counter-argument. This sounds to me like your typical liberal ignorance and stereotyping.

Also, what those Jesus Campers are doing in that video is about as far from an example of conservatism as you can get. Conservatives don't believe in putting your faith in an earthly person because that is the way of dictatorships; and we are a democratic republic. Thus, this video is irrelevant to conservatism and only serves as a different form of what these liberals are drilling into our kids' heads regarding the current president. I have yet to talk to a conservative who has ever approved of Jesus Camp.

Nice try, though.

<snipped>

Totenkopf
09-26-2009, 06:08 PM
I'm going to just say this: you conservatives are being hypocrites....

Nothing hypocritical about it as several of us have posted that the fact this was being done by "govt controlled" public school was the problem. If you wish to take your child (if you have any) and sit down and deify any person of your choice in private......have at it. 1st Amendment and all that. ;)

Te Je'karta Mand'alor
09-26-2009, 06:11 PM
I've been away for a while but I'm back. I noticed that this hadn't been posted here yet and wanted to bringit up.


Kids being taught to sing praises to Obama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zrsl8o4ZPo)



I was outraged when I saw this on the Drudge Report. I was even more outraged when the Superintendant of the School System responded as if there was nothing wrong with what was shown in the video. I think the thing that made it the most offensive to me is the line, "...All are equal in his sight."


Your thoughts?

no offense to Obama, but that's disgusting (singing in praise to people)

jonathan7
09-26-2009, 06:30 PM
Right, words of warning here - be careful with your use of the word "hypocrite" I don't want it directed at forum members. And selective members of both the Democrats and the Republicans have proven themselves to be hypocrites in the past.

Be warned - after the inability of quite a few American posters of either persuasion to be civil to one another during the election you are hereby notified that this thread is on a tight leash. I will not allow unsubstantiated conjecture or smears directed towards those in opposition to your view point -- j7

Trench
09-26-2009, 06:36 PM
I'm going to just say this: you conservatives are being hypocrites.

<snip>
Source: Jesus Camp documentary. Go rent it and fear for the future.

So, religiously indoctrinated children worshiping President Bush is ok, but children simply praising President Obama is not?

Hypocrites.

Both videos show children being brainwashed, but since it's liberals doing it, now there's an outrage. Go find something actually important to get hot and bothered by, or at least recognize the hypocrisy.

Those kids weren't worshiping Bush. They were praying for him. Is it not normal for even atheists to hope that their leaders do the right thing and are kept safe? Why should it be wrong for Christian's to pray for their leaders?
Now worshiping Obama (or Bush) is a revolting thing to teach kids, and any superintendent or teacher who condones such a thing in their schools and classrooms should be discharged immediately.

Q
09-26-2009, 06:47 PM
Personally I believe that this example is worse than the Jesus Camp incident mainly because it is a public school doing it.
This is the main problem that I have with the topic at hand as well. If religious fanatics want to send their kids to be brainwashed at Jesus camp, well that's their choice, deplorable as it may be.

A government institution doing it is another matter entirely. Of course, in my experience, public school has done stuff like this since I was kid, but they used to be far more subtle about it.

Astor
09-26-2009, 06:52 PM
Your thoughts?

Both songs are awful.

EDIT: It occurs to me that I should add a little more than just that line.

Although they are awful, I do disagree with this sort of activity going on in any state school, although it would be amusing to see British school children singing Gordon Brown's praises.

Litofsky
09-26-2009, 07:00 PM
Besides making me cringe, you mean?

I thought it was deplorable. It bothers me the most that an adult is teaching a bunch of children to sing songs glorifying the president (the most perturbing fact, to me, is that children don't have an innate opinion about such things [at their age] until someone steps in and tells them what to think).

Det. Bart Lasiter
09-26-2009, 11:53 PM
Why not? Don't children in your country already have to 'pledge alleigience to the flag' every morning? Singing hymns to your President doesn't seem that much further along the same furrow.I agree with Darathy completely, worshiping a man as infallible is just as repugnant as worshiping a country as infallible.

What's more is I don't see this as anything more than a stupid elementary school song for a black history month celebration that's been blown out of proportion.

Jae Onasi
09-27-2009, 12:20 AM
If there had been a Bush praise song in a public school during Texas history month, there would have been an outcry from the left about how kids were getting brain-washed. Learning about Obama as important to the black community as first half-black President? Sure. Singing praises to him? That's pushing the line for me on pressuring kids with politics and doesn't belong in the classroom. If the parents of all those kids gave consent for this, then it might be something more acceptable.

Te Je'karta Mand'alor
09-27-2009, 12:39 AM
If there had been a Bush praise song in a public school during Texas history month, there would have been an outcry from the left about how kids were getting brain-washed. Learning about Obama as important to the black community as first half-black President? Sure. Singing praises to him? That's pushing the line for me on pressuring kids with politics and doesn't belong in the classroom. If the parents of all those kids gave consent for this, then it might be something more acceptable.

I compltely agree and i'm sick of being brain washed by politics.

Ten-96
09-27-2009, 01:26 AM
Just to be clear, I am opposed to anyone trying to force their political views on children - be they Conservative or Liberal. However, praying for the President and sing a song of praise to the President seem to be two completely different things to me.

Bimmerman
09-27-2009, 06:41 AM
Just because this happened in a public school does not mean it is government-approved. Unless this is widespread throughout the public school system, this is simply a deplorable act done by a very bad teacher. This incident hardly screams child indoctrination to me, just bad judgment by a teacher.

Do I agree with what the teacher did? No, I find it disgusting. Am I offended? No. I have had teachers say and do a loooot more politically controversial actions while in their official capacity as teachers. This hardly ruffles my feathers.

@TMM- there's a big difference between praying and praying. This falls under the latter, and looks an awful lot like worship to me. Granted, yes, these kids are doing so in a private setting, but it still bothers me significantly more than the kids in the classroom (and not because it's Bush, but because they're worshiping the President and "giving him strength to fight xxxxx").

@Ten 96- I agree with you, forcing political views on children is bad no matter what party or side of the isle it is. I just find it incredibly ironic that conservatives are up in arms about what they do anyway, but only when liberals do it. Again, hypocrisy. (See evolution vs intelligent design debates in Texas, Kansas, etc, religion in the classroom, sex education, etc).

And, for the record, I'm a registered Republican, so....calling me a liberal is hardly correct.

jrrtoken
09-27-2009, 09:00 AM
Just because this happened in a public school does not mean it is government-approved.This. People seem to forget that all schools are fundamentally operated by local governments, as defined byt the federal system. The schools might conform to standards set by the state and national gov'ts, as well as receiving the bulk of their funding from them, but schools themselves are operated locally. Therefore, decrying this as a liberal politburo-instituted function is illogical, and is simply an isolated incident.

Zerimar Nyliram
09-27-2009, 12:28 PM
@Ten 96- I agree with you, forcing political views on children is bad no matter what party or side of the isle it is. I just find it incredibly ironic that conservatives are up in arms about what they do anyway, but only when liberals do it. Again, hypocrisy. (See evolution vs intelligent design debates in Texas, Kansas, etc, religion in the classroom, sex education, etc).

Again, you're using a blanket statement that is routed in propaganda and stereotyping rather than fact. Don't you get it? You can't say "It's hypocritical because conservatives do it too." No, they don't! I just devoted a whole post explaining to you that you cannot paint conservatives as religious fanatics because of a video of Jesus Camp (something that, as I said, most conservatives seem to disapprove of anyway). Neither can you use the evolution vs. creation debate as this is something that is associated with a certain religion (mainly mainline Protestantism) rather than conservative politics, which is made up of people from many different religions, or no religion at all. It seems to me that - and I do not mean this offensively, I'm just going on what I see here - you have this predetermined image of conservatives in your head based on things that represent only a small portion of the group.

And for the record, no one here is presenting the opposite argument: that is, no one is laying the blame on liberals in general for what we see in these videos.

And, for the record, I'm a registered Republican, so....calling me a liberal is hardly correct.

That doesn't mean anything. In fact, I am so sick of this bipartisan mentality and how the left is using it to further their agenda by lumping all opposition on "Republicans." The Democratic Party, since the New Deal, has become a party-loyal entity of politicians pushing for Statist agendas, and they cannot get it through their heads that conservatives do not think as they do. Republicans, on the other hand, are 1930s Democrats: when the party had just begun its downfall into corruption from which there was no return. True conservatives are not in the majority within the Republican Party anymore. The Party, as a whole, is more centrist, run by people like Colin Powell and John McCain who compromise the traditional principles that once made the party (and, going further back, both parties) great.

This is thanks mainly to the Progressive Movement of the early twentieth century, whereby the concepts of individual prosperity were thrown under the bus in favor of more collectivist ideologies. Even the way we viewed private property was severely tarnished. Progressivism has become woven into the very fabric of both major parties, unfortunately, and this was why George Washington warned against the formation of political parties.

Bimmerman
09-27-2009, 01:00 PM
Again, you're using a blanket statement that is routed in propaganda and stereotyping rather than fact. Don't you get it? You can't say "It's hypocritical because conservatives do it too." No, they don't! I just devoted a whole post explaining to you that you cannot paint conservatives as religious fanatics because of a video of Jesus Camp (something that, as I said, most conservatives seem to disapprove of anyway).

My blanket statement is routed in first-hand experience. I have met numerous conservatives who fit my mold. I fully recognize that the Jesus Camp shenaniganry applies to a very small proportion of the conservative movement, namely the religious lunatic fringe of said movement. What I am using the video for is to compare isolated groups. There is no widespread movement to worship the president just like there is no widespread movement to have children sing Obama's praises. Isolated incidents, man.

It is hypocritical to not be terribly worried at christian fundamentalists worshipping Bush and be offended at school children singing a song simply praising Obama. There's a fundamental problem there.

What you seem to be doing is using this singular video of school children and extrapolating a gigantic liberal conspiracy to indoctrinate children into believing Obama is some sort of political messianic genius. Obviously that thinking is as absurd as my over exaggeration.

Neither can you use the evolution vs. creation debate as this is something that is associated with a certain religion (mainly mainline Protestantism) rather than conservative politics, which is made up of people from many different religions, or no religion at all. It seems to me that - and I do not mean this offensively, I'm just going on what I see here - you have this predetermined image of conservatives in your head based on things that represent only a small portion of the group.

No, I can use that exact debate seeing as how the majority of conservatives (until Bush left office, anyway) identified strongly as evangelicals or Christians. That is hardly all Republicans, but is the base that the politicians pander to. Again, I have my predetermined image of conservatives based on my experience meeting them.

And for the record, no one here is presenting the opposite argument: that is, no one is laying the blame on liberals in general for what we see in these videos.

Why should liberals be blamed for it at all? It's a single teacher leading her class in a song about Obama. How is this even remotely related to liberals? One teacher a conspiracy does not make.

That doesn't mean anything. In fact, I am so sick of this bipartisan mentality and how the left is using it to further their agenda by lumping all opposition on "Republicans."

You're right, since I voted for Obama. The conservative movement has murdered the Republican party in my opinion, straying significantly away from the important financial conservatism and emphasizing particularly strongly the bigoted social conservatism I cannot stand. If it were not for that, I would gladly vote Republican; the Democrats are nearly as repugnant in my mind.

There is a great distinction between social conservative and economic conservative. The conservative movement has, for the last eight years, been significantly more focused on the social issues to the detriment of voters (see election results) and finance (see world markets, though the politics is only a tiny influence on the crash).

However, I find it incredibly amusing that you are making the distinction between republicans and conservatives but none between liberals and democrats. How odd.

The Democratic Party, since the New Deal, has become a party-loyal ...and the Republicans or Conservatives aren't?!? entity of politicians pushing for Statist agendas, and they cannot get it through their heads that conservatives do not think as they do.

Just as you claim I have no idea what a conservative is, please do tell how you came to this conclusion on the Democrats. Democrats != Statism, and are far more understanding than you give credit for.

Republicans, on the other hand, are 1930s Democrats: when the party had just begun its downfall into corruption from which there was no return.

That I will agree with, it's part of the reason I didn't vote for them.

True conservatives are not in the majority within the Republican Party anymore. The Party, as a whole, is more centrist, run by people like Colin Powell and John McCain who compromise the traditional principles that once made the party (and, going further back, both parties) great.

They are no longer in the majority for the simple reason that the overall population is more centrist than conservatives give credit for. Conservatism was resoundingly rejected in the 2006 and 08 elections, why shouldn't the party move to the center to appeal to a broader swath of the electorate? I doubt you'll agree, but the Democrats sure have become more centrist. Remember, liberal =/= democrat just like conservative =/= republican.

This is thanks mainly to the Progressive Movement of the early twentieth century, whereby the concepts of individual prosperity were thrown under the bus in favor of more collectivist ideologies. Even the way we viewed private property was severely tarnished. Progressivism has become woven into the very fabric of both major parties, unfortunately, and this was why George Washington warned against the formation of political parties.

Not terribly sure of that, but I do agree with you that politics have changed significantly since the Laisses-faire era ended. Personal responsibility has all but disappeared in favor of "help me, government" ideology. This is bad, and coming from a slightly-right leaning centrist <gasp?>

I think both you and I are equally guilty of stereotyping. You of liberals, me of conservatives.

on-topic: one school teacher's actions does not mean it is a liberal plot, no more than a religious nutcase boot camp is indicative of conservative thought. That is what I mean by the hypocrisy of the "off with their heads" mentality on display here.

Totenkopf
09-27-2009, 04:19 PM
My blanket statement is routed in first-hand experience. I have met numerous conservatives who fit my mold. I fully recognize that the Jesus Camp shenaniganry applies to a very small proportion of the conservative movement, namely the religious lunatic fringe of said movement. What I am using the video for is to compare isolated groups. There is no widespread movement to worship the president just like there is no widespread movement to have children sing Obama's praises. Isolated incidents, man.

Interesting, b/c most conservatives I've met don't fall into that mold. Re the worship thing, actually there is......the modern democrat progressive. :xp: This wasn't the first incident of this kind of stuff, as ZN's video demonstrated. Other examples were occurring circa the election. As this one occurred during Black History month and was only released on Yuotube recently, it's impossible to say with certitude how much of this has been going on around the country. That the Dept of Ed would think to include materials for his recent speech that had the students consider what they would do to help the President's agenda (hence politicizing the event) says that the "adults" in charge probably need to go back to school themselves for civics lessons.



It is hypocritical to not be terribly worried at christian fundamentalists worshipping Bush and be offended at school children singing a song simply praising Obama. There's a fundamental problem there.

I believe it's already been pointed out that the children in a private function weren't worshipping Bush. If you pray FOR someone, you're not praying TO that person. Based on the clip you provided, they aren't "worshipping" him. The BO stuff ain't so benign by comparison. It does compare more to what you might expect to find in VZ or NK, where you have cult of personality politics in play.


What you seem to be doing is using this singular video of school children and extrapolating a gigantic liberal conspiracy to indoctrinate children into believing Obama is some sort of political messianic genius. Obviously that thinking is as absurd as my over exaggeration.

No, he's providing but another example of the loony left trying to deify BO and cast him as some kind of savior. I don't believe that all liberals buy into the glorification process any more than all conservatives do for "Saint Ron". :p But to cast it is as some mere aberration would be factually incorrect.



No, I can use that exact debate seeing as how the majority of conservatives (until Bush left office, anyway) identified strongly as evangelicals or Christians. That is hardly all Republicans, but is the base that the politicians pander to. Again, I have my predetermined image of conservatives based on my experience meeting them.

Interesting. Are you in the south? I've no doubt you'd find the evangelical types in the conservative movement, but they also vote liberal too. I suspect many religious types don't vote monolithically. You had Catholics voting for McCain as well as for Obama. Jews probably segregated along Orthodox and reformed in who they voted for as well.


Why should liberals be blamed for it at all? It's a single teacher leading her class in a song about Obama. How is this even remotely related to liberals? One teacher a conspiracy does not make.

Wasn't the first time a "liberal teacher" (you don't find many conservatives in education, esp at the lower levels in the public system) has done this kind of thing. Also, given that it's liberal radicals like Bill Ayers that have a significant hand in crafting national curriculums, it's not so surprising.



You're right, since I voted for Obama. The conservative movement has murdered the Republican party in my opinion, straying significantly away from the important financial conservatism and emphasizing particularly strongly the bigoted social conservatism I cannot stand. If it were not for that, I would gladly vote Republican; the Democrats are nearly as repugnant in my mind.

I find it interesting that a self described "conservative" would have voted for BO. Why not some third party candidate? Or are you saying you veer more toward liberatarian ideals? Frankly, the last election for me was merely a case of BO or Obama lite. Maybe you figured you'd settle for the real thing.



There is a great distinction between social conservative and economic conservative. The conservative movement has, for the last eight years, been significantly more focused on the social issues to the detriment of voters (see election results) and finance (see world markets, though the politics is only a tiny influence on the crash).

Bush did become Johnsonian with his guns' butter policies (wars, MC bill, etc..). However, Congress disposes,and the president merely proposes. The dems are as responsible for the current mess as the other side. I agree with you that the reps should have tried to exercise greater fiscal responsibility and not "lose their way".



They are no longer in the majority for the simple reason that the overall population is more centrist than conservatives give credit for. Conservatism was resoundingly rejected in the 2006 and 08 elections, why shouldn't the party move to the center to appeal to a broader swath of the electorate? I doubt you'll agree, but the Democrats sure have become more centrist. Remember, liberal =/= democrat just like conservative =/= republican.

I supppose if you move the bar for defining centrism (afterall Al Franken thinks he's a moderate :rofl:). The reps largely veered from "conservatism" prior to 2006/8, so I think the elections were more about Bush/Cheney than anything else. Still, amazing how the economic problems of the US only got worse w/dem control of Congress. The problem becomes that it's the party leadership more often than the rank-n-file that fit the description of the stereotype. Whether many dems are as loony as the ldrship of that party is open to debate in my book, but I give them the benefit of the doubt to demonstrate one way or the other. Same could be said of the other side.


Not terribly sure of that, but I do agree with you that politics have changed significantly since the Laisses-faire era ended. Personal responsibility has all but disappeared in favor of "help me, government" ideology. This is bad, and coming from a slightly-right leaning centrist <gasp?>

Yes, the degree to which many people look to the feds as the solutions to life's problems and want to duck any real responsibility for their own lives is sad and alarming.

Bimmerman
09-28-2009, 09:44 AM
Interesting, b/c most conservatives I've met don't fall into that mold. Re the worship thing, actually there is......the modern democrat progressive. :xp: This wasn't the first incident of this kind of stuff, as ZN's video demonstrated. Other examples were occurring circa the election. As this one occurred during Black History month and was only released on Yuotube recently, it's impossible to say with certitude how much of this has been going on around the country. That the Dept of Ed would think to include materials for his recent speech that had the students consider what they would do to help the President's agenda (hence politicizing the event) says that the "adults" in charge probably need to go back to school themselves for civics lessons.

No, it's not the first incident, but it's a rather gigantic stretch of imagination to assume it's related, and thus the liberals' fault.

I believe it's already been pointed out that the children in a private function weren't worshipping Bush. If you pray FOR someone, you're not praying TO that person. Based on the clip you provided, they aren't "worshipping" him. The BO stuff ain't so benign by comparison. It does compare more to what you might expect to find in VZ or NK, where you have cult of personality politics in play.

And like I said, there's a distinction between praying and the SuperPraying going on there. Regardless of what you call worship or praying, that clip doesn't bother you? The manner in which the President's effigy is presented to the children makes it a de facto symbol and idol, to which the children are praying....what exactly differentiates that from outright worship? Bush is being elevated not to god-level worship, but worship nontheless.

No, he's providing but another example of the loony left trying to deify BO and cast him as some kind of savior. I don't believe that all liberals buy into the glorification process any more than all conservatives do for "Saint Ron". :p But to cast it is as some mere aberration would be factually incorrect.

I agree on the Ron Paul-ism (and arguably the same for "i heart reagan more than you" type of Republican politicking). I disagree on the notion this is more than a mere aberration; it is just that. If this was happening nationwide, or school-district wide, or even school-wide, then yes that's a pattern. As it is, this is just a display of the poor judgement of a articular leftist teacher and superintendent, not the school system at all.

Interesting. Are you in the south? I've no doubt you'd find the evangelical types in the conservative movement, but they also vote liberal too. I suspect many religious types don't vote monolithically. You had Catholics voting for McCain as well as for Obama. Jews probably segregated along Orthodox and reformed in who they voted for as well.

Nope. Colorado. Of course no single group will always vote the same way, be it evangelicals, atheists, gays, gun owners, racers, meat packers, etc. By and large though, they do. It was only two years ago that there was lots of uproar about the rather blatant panderings to the religious right, how has this been forgotten so quickly? Many non-religious conservatives I know despise the Republican party for pandering to the religious nuts so effectively. Up until the 06 elections, which, yes, were partly a referendum on Bush/Iraq, the conservative and Republican agenda pretty much centered on God, Guns, and (bashing)Gays. It was more apparent at low-level governing, but still appalingly prevalent at the national level. It was always insanely obvious to me, but then again, I'm not a religious person.

Wasn't the first time a "liberal teacher" (you don't find many conservatives in education, esp at the lower levels in the public system) has done this kind of thing. Also, given that it's liberal radicals like Bill Ayers that have a significant hand in crafting national curriculums, it's not so surprising. One of the most well-respected teachers I had growing up, with a PhD no less, was a raging conservative. They aren't that common in education, no, but neither are truly liberal teachers. Most teachers I had were resoundingly moderate centrists. Only a few were "liberals" in the sense of the word you mean.

I challenge you to show me where, in national educational curriculum, it says "students must praise Obama, show fealty, or otherwise become future liberal nuts." It doesn't, you know that, why perpetuate what you know to be false?

Regardless, how does the one obviously liberal teacher in the video equal a vast liberal conspiracy? How is this singing the fault of the Democrats, Obama, or Liberals? How does the actions of a singular teacher give insight into the mind and desires of Liberals?

It's not, and it doesn't, just like how the prayer/worship/idiocy on display in the Jesus Camp documentary is not descriptive of the vast majority of conservatives and Republicans. That is the point I have been trying to make.

Saying "blah blah blah Liberals Obama blah blah statism blah blah socialism" for clearly no reason is akin to people two years ago going "blah blah blah Bush blah Republicans blah bigotry blah blah blah financial idiots"

One bad apple, a bushel does not spoil.

I find it interesting that a self described "conservative" would have voted for BO. Why not some third party candidate? Or are you saying you veer more toward liberatarian ideals? Frankly, the last election for me was merely a case of BO or Obama lite. Maybe you figured you'd settle for the real thing.

Why? The actual reason to elect a President is to choose the best candidate to lead the country, not because of his tie color. He was the best candidate in my opinion, so I voted for him. The politics were a secondary issue, but considering the Republican agenda didn't appear any different from Bush's (hatred of gays, no abortions, stay in iraq, no economic policy, etc etc), I didn't want any part of that. So I voted my conscience, and voted Democratic. I honestly fear a "real conservative" if the mindless ramblings of Limbaugh et al are anything to go by. Why would I waste my vote on a third party anyway? If I'm going to take time out of my day to vote it is going to matter.

And yes, I'm pretty much the picture-perfect description of a Libertarian. I like people, want them to be happy, but I also like my money. Makes voting hard, and means I'm pretty much that oft-maligned swing voter that actually decides elections.


Bush did become Johnsonian with his guns' butter policies (wars, MC bill, etc..). However, Congress disposes,and the president merely proposes. The dems are as responsible for the current mess as the other side. I agree with you that the reps should have tried to exercise greater fiscal responsibility and not "lose their way". That is true, I can't argue with that since I agree. The dems are only responsible circa 2006, but still....I have less than zero confidence in either party. The Republicans lost their way a looooooong time ago, when the party of "Personal Freedom and Small Government" turned into "I Hate Terrorists Let's Make More Government In The Name Of Security and Take Away Your Freedoms." You could say for a Republican I hate my party (and boy do they hate me), but hate the democrats more. What a quandary.

I supppose if you move the bar for defining centrism (afterall Al Franken thinks he's a moderate :rofl:). The reps largely veered from "conservatism" prior to 2006/8, so I think the elections were more about Bush/Cheney than anything else. Still, amazing how the economic problems of the US only got worse w/dem control of Congress. The problem becomes that it's the party leadership more often than the rank-n-file that fit the description of the stereotype. Whether many dems are as loony as the ldrship of that party is open to debate in my book, but I give them the benefit of the doubt to demonstrate one way or the other. Same could be said of the other side.

I couldn't agree more. Economically, the democrats did almost nothing to cause or prevent the crash in the two years they were in power, just like the republicans did almost nothing as well the years they were. Financial markets are pretty removed from politics......but politicians want you to think they have sway. The dems are historically bad with money, but look at the recent 94-06 term that the repubs were in office, and yea, they were every bit as bad as dems were. Except the Republicans had the gall to claim they were Reagan's chosen....as if the 80s has any relevance to modern times.

Either way, the Dems have screwed up royally, the Repubs have screwed up royally, but neither party has any directive in place to make school children praise or worship the President; that is simply the result of stupid adults in positions of responsibility.

Yes, the degree to which many people look to the feds as the solutions to life's problems and want to duck any real responsibility for their own lives is sad and alarming.

People are stupid. Really stupid. And absurdly lazy.

El Sitherino
09-28-2009, 04:37 PM
I guess no one here remembers Ike, FDR, Truman, or Kennedy.

Totenkopf
09-28-2009, 06:08 PM
No, it's not the first incident, but it's a rather gigantic stretch of imagination to assume it's related, and thus the liberals' fault.

I would disagree with you in the sense that I'm not claiming a conspiracy so much as yet more of the same kind of behavior from progressive libs. They tend to predominate heavily in areas like education, media, etc... Since they are obviously libs in the contemporary sense, it is the "liberals" fault. They've certainly created an environment where these kinds of people feel very comfortable doing something like this.



And like I said, there's a distinction between praying and the SuperPraying going on there. Regardless of what you call worship or praying, that clip doesn't bother you? The manner in which the President's effigy is presented to the children makes it a de facto symbol and idol, to which the children are praying....what exactly differentiates that from outright worship? Bush is being elevated not to god-level worship, but worship nontheless.

Again, though, it's the difference between a private group engaging its members to "pray" for someone and kids being used to score political points in the public school system.



I agree on the Ron Paul-ism (and arguably the same for "i heart reagan more than you" type of Republican politicking). I disagree on the notion this is more than a mere aberration; it is just that. If this was happening nationwide, or school-district wide, or even school-wide, then yes that's a pattern. As it is, this is just a display of the poor judgement of a articular leftist teacher and superintendent, not the school system at all.

:p Actually, I meant Ronald Reagan. Wasn't even thinking of Paul, but take your point nonetheless.



Nope. Colorado. Of course no single group will always vote the same way, be it evangelicals, atheists, gays, gun owners, racers, meat packers, etc. By and large though, they do. It was only two years ago that there was lots of uproar about the rather blatant panderings to the religious right, how has this been forgotten so quickly? Many non-religious conservatives I know despise the Republican party for pandering to the religious nuts so effectively. Up until the 06 elections, which, yes, were partly a referendum on Bush/Iraq, the conservative and Republican agenda pretty much centered on God, Guns, and (bashing)Gays. It was more apparent at low-level governing, but still appalingly prevalent at the national level. It was always insanely obvious to me, but then again, I'm not a religious person.

The same has been said of the democrat party and its catering to increasingly "mainstreamed" fringe povs on everything from ecology to gay rights. Seems the people deemed extremists in both parties are the ones who get politicians' ears b/c they are the best organized and very active in pushing their respective agendas.


One of the most well-respected teachers I had growing up, with a PhD no less, was a raging conservative. They aren't that common in education, no, but neither are truly liberal teachers. Most teachers I had were resoundingly moderate centrists. Only a few were "liberals" in the sense of the word you mean.

I suspect there are more liberals than you think, but contend much of the idealogical rot is toward the top and "midmanagement" where curriculums are devised and not necessarily in the rank and file.


I challenge you to show me where, in national educational curriculum, it says "students must praise Obama, show fealty, or otherwise become future liberal nuts." It doesn't, you know that, why perpetuate what you know to be false?

I'll pass on this for two reasons. One, I never claimed they were so bold as to say that openly. Two, I think they are more intelligent than to be so obvious. Much like a politician that intends to raise your taxes, but doesn't come out and say that's what is really being done. But, like you I imagine, I wouldn't perpetuate something I KNEW to be false.



Regardless, how does the one obviously liberal teacher in the video equal a vast liberal conspiracy? How is this singing the fault of the Democrats, Obama, or Liberals? How does the actions of a singular teacher give insight into the mind and desires of Liberals?

It's not, and it doesn't, just like how the prayer/worship/idiocy on display in the Jesus Camp documentary is not descriptive of the vast majority of conservatives and Republicans. That is the point I have been trying to make.

Saying "blah blah blah Liberals Obama blah blah statism blah blah socialism" for clearly no reason is akin to people two years ago going "blah blah blah Bush blah Republicans blah bigotry blah blah blah financial idiots"

One bad apple, a bushel does not spoil.

If this were the only example out there, I'd agree that it was merely one case of monumentally bad judgement. I think there're ample examples out there of the progressive mind at work, in and out of the education field.


Why? The actual reason to elect a President is to choose the best candidate to lead the country, not because of his tie color. He was the best candidate in my opinion, so I voted for him. The politics were a secondary issue, but considering the Republican agenda didn't appear any different from Bush's (hatred of gays, no abortions, stay in iraq, no economic policy, etc etc), I didn't want any part of that. So I voted my conscience, and voted Democratic. I honestly fear a "real conservative" if the mindless ramblings of Limbaugh et al are anything to go by. Why would I waste my vote on a third party anyway? If I'm going to take time out of my day to vote it is going to matter.

Best as in the best of two deplorable choices? Given the American legal system's love of precedents, I couldn't vote for BO b/c I thought his politics were worse for America than even McCain's (where they weren't almost indistinguishable such as on immigration and anthropogenic climate change).



You could say for a Republican I hate my party (and boy do they hate me), but hate the democrats more. What a quandary.

:p Too true.


People are stupid. Really stupid. And absurdly lazy.

Amen. ;)

Darth Avlectus
09-29-2009, 03:40 AM
Why not? Don't children in your country already have to 'pledge alleigience to the flag' every morning?

The pledge is entirely optional by now. Remember how that thread in the senate debated getting rid of the motto "in god we trust"? It's the same sort of people for these same reasonas it is now optional.

I'm going to just say this: you conservatives are being hypocrites.
...Thanks Bimmer. :dozey:

From a historical viewpoint, praises for your leaders has been seen in pre fascist eras with leaders who were about to usurp their nation. Not saying it's necessarily the case here. However, I would personally appreciate it if our presidents of late were not so drawn into the celb spotlight and more focused on their jobs like they should be.

Source: Jesus Camp documentary. Go rent it and fear for the future.

So, religiously indoctrinated children worshiping President Bush is ok, but children simply praising President Obama is not?

Hypocrites.

Prayer for and praise for are not one and the same no matter how you try to toss it. To be fair I think brainwashing in any name is deplorable regardless whatever your alignment.

Both videos show children being brainwashed, but since it's liberals doing it, now there's an outrage. Go find something actually important to get hot and bothered by, or at least recognize the hypocrisy.

Same could be said to libs about that video as well. I do recognize hypocrisy and racism amonst my own and frankly find it embarrassing.

How do we stop this? Stop paying so much attention to it on both ends (brainwashing included), and as for racism and how we end it? Morgan Freeman said on a 60 minutes interview said: Stop talking about it.

I have had teachers say and do a loooot more politically controversial actions while in their official capacity as teachers. This hardly ruffles my feathers. It wastefully detracts from the function of school, regardless.

@TMM- there's a big difference between praying and praying. This falls under the latter, and looks an awful lot like worship to me. Granted, yes, these kids are doing so in a private setting, but it still bothers me significantly more than the kids in the classroom (and not because it's Bush, but because they're worshiping the President and "giving him strength to fight xxxxx"). The basic point is that what is upsetting in either case is this "leader love".

While, no, that new Obama song isn't absolute heaving worship--it is at that age an exercise in tenet indoctrination begins on impressionable minds. In the immediate it is little in the way of harm done. Long term, it is an unshakeable idolization.

The Jesus camp obviously uses more powerful and accelerated methodologies.

Either way I would say this is a bad thing to do.

@Ten 96- I agree with you, forcing political views on children is bad no matter what party or side of the isle it is. I just find it incredibly ironic that conservatives are up in arms about what they do anyway, but only when liberals do it. Again, hypocrisy. (See evolution vs intelligent design debates in Texas, Kansas, etc, religion in the classroom, sex education, etc). Same goes likewise liberals about conservatives in opposite roles so all you're doing here is begging the question.

And, for the record, I'm a registered Republican, so....calling me a liberal is hardly correct.

As well, a republican does not always = conservative; democrat does not always = liberal, so a generalization does not justify conflating them either.

Ten-96
09-29-2009, 04:00 AM
Why? The actual reason to elect a President is to choose the best candidate to lead the country, not because of his tie color. He was the best candidate in my opinion, so I voted for him. The politics were a secondary issue, but considering the Republican agenda didn't appear any different from Bush's (hatred of gays, no abortions, stay in iraq, no economic policy, etc etc), I didn't want any part of that. So I voted my conscience, and voted Democratic. I honestly fear a "real conservative" if the mindless ramblings of Limbaugh et al are anything to go by. Why would I waste my vote on a third party anyway? If I'm going to take time out of my day to vote it is going to matter.

Best candidate? Someone with no executive experience whatsoever. By the way, President Bush didn't hate gays; he didn't believe that they had the right to be married. As far as President Bush's economic policies are concerned, you lost me on that point. President Bush did increase our debt funding the war and he did start the bail-out process (which I still contend is not in the President's or Congress' enumerated powers under the Constitution). He didn't however quadruple the debt in less than one year nor did he spend more than every President before him combined like Obama has. You may be surprised that "real" Conservatives (myself included) believe in fiscal responsibility. We believe that a person can spend their money better than the Government. We believe that you should keep more of your money for you and your family; ie. less taxes. We believe in and defend the Constitution. We support our troops regardless of the reason that they are at war. There are numerous other things but I'll be even more off topic than I am now.

*Almost forgot - for those of you who think you have a hard time, trying be a black conservative in a liberal state.*

Zerimar Nyliram
09-29-2009, 04:29 AM
George Walker Bush. Mmm mmm mmm. Save the Iraqi people. Mmm mmm mmm.

Totenkopf
09-29-2009, 05:06 AM
*Almost forgot - for those of you who think you have a hard time, trying be a black conservative in a liberal state.*


I'd hasten to add just modern America in general. I think black conservatives are just an oxymoron in the eyes of most liberals. ;)

El Sitherino
09-29-2009, 10:49 PM
I think the thing that made it the most offensive to me is the line, "...All are equal in his sight."


Your thoughts?

What's so bad about saying all Americans are equal in his sight?

ForeverNight
09-29-2009, 11:12 PM
I think it's more the insinuation that the opposition doesn't hold the same truth, "that all [people] are created equal."

El Sitherino
09-29-2009, 11:25 PM
I think it's more the insinuation that the opposition doesn't hold the same truth, "that all [people] are created equal."

Well I'm sure if Michael Steele accomplished something other than regurgitating outdated racial stereotypes, they would have had a song about him in the same Black History Month show that this was from. They did presentations for all the black figures that have made landmarks in American history and have progressed the recognition of blacks in America.

At least they didn't have them sing **** the Police, which rocketed rap to the stage it is today and gave lots of mysoginist black men the voice they so deeply craved.

Totenkopf
09-29-2009, 11:37 PM
Actually, I gonna guess that some feel the expression "in (H)is sight" has quasi-religious overtones. Frankly, the whole thing is amateurish and has no place in public schools. I've heard many liberals agree that it was out of place in the setting in question. Sub Bush for Obama and the people on the other side of the political aisle would have screamed bloody murder.

Ten-96
09-30-2009, 01:45 AM
El Sitherino,

The problem with that particular line is it's religious reference. It was an adaptation from the song, "Jesus Loves the Little Children." Here is the verse:

Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Black and yellow, red and white
They're all precious in His sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world

I understand that Obama had nothing to do with the song. I have no issue with that. The issue I have is that there are those who would like us to believe that there is nothing wrong with what was done in the video.

Well I'm sure if Michael Steele accomplished something other than regurgitating outdated racial stereotypes, they would have had a song about him in the same Black History Month show that this was from. They did presentations for all the black figures that have made landmarks in American history and have progressed the recognition of blacks in America.

I was unaware that being elected as Republican National Committee Chairman wasn't an accomplishment. As far as this black man is concerned, Michael Steele is doing a decent job; far better than when he started. Not to mention that he was instrumental during his tenure as Lt. Governor for the state of Maryland (where I live). I purposely left out the rest of your post. You should be more careful with your claims. Most black men who listen to or like rap music aren't misogynists. I'm sure they're in the vast minority. Just because we listen to a song doesn't mean we agree with the singer's point of view. Case in point: How many of you like the movie "Terminator"? I know I did. However, there was a scene where Arnold Schwarzenegger killed an entire precinct of Police Officers. I don't recall many people getting up in arms over that.

cire992
09-30-2009, 05:03 AM
... I don't get it. This stuff happens, it will always happen, we can't do anything about it except be pissed off and argue about who's right and wrong when in reality everyone is wrong as far as someone else is concerned.

This whole thing is probably just scripted anyways. Sometimes politicians don't get good soundbytes on the news when they just keep complaining about each other, so they wait for some inane local news story and turn it into freakin' judgement day. The conservatives can complain about liberal indoctrination or some s*** and liberals can complain about the education system and after a week the story will die down and nothing will be done about it. The politicians get some nice bullet points for their next election, and a bunch of kids can brag to their grandparents this christmas that they got to sing on TV!

God Bless America, the biggest circus on Earth!

El Sitherino
09-30-2009, 11:09 AM
Actually, I gonna guess that some feel the expression "in (H)is sight" has quasi-religious overtones.

They can feel that way all they want, doesn't make it true.

Frankly, the whole thing is amateurish and has no place in public schools.

... It's kids and you complain it's amateurish?
You should be a play review at the Washington Post if you're going to rip on kids performance abilities.

I've heard many liberals agree that it was out of place in the setting in question.
It was all the way back in February for a show about Black History Month in which they did skits and performances in appreciations for monumental moments in black history. I suppose a song about Martin Luther King Jr. is also out of place.
I'll agree to one thing, it was a really poorly done song, but I don't think I'd really expect something like Rent from a New Jersey public school, they can't even get 45% of the kids to standard reading material levels.

Sub Bush for Obama and the people on the other side of the political aisle would have screamed bloody murder.
Not really, we did plenty of stuff at my school for Bush. We had lots of talks about George Bush, then again I live in Texas and anything a Texan does or pretty much anything anyone does in the name of Texas is talked about, sung about, painted, interpretively danced to, etc.
As well kids have sung for Bush plenty of times, remember when he first visited the victims of Katrina and those kids sang of him and the work he and all agencies are doing to help them? Apparently not, but I do, and sadly only those at MSNBC did as well. And yes I do hesitate to mention them as I dislike them as much as you.

El Sitherino,

The problem with that particular line is it's religious reference.
Not really, there are many references this can be to, praise doesn't simply imply a religious aspect.

I was unaware that being elected as Republican National Committee Chairman wasn't an accomplishment.

You're right, it is an accomplishment. The fact remains however that he is not recognized by his republican colleagues which kind of makes his headmanships purpose apparent. Michael Steele wasn't selected because of his work, he was selected because he's black, just as Palin was chosen because she's a woman. Considering there are better candidates in the Republican party to fill both of the token seats, it's just a little too easy to see.

As far as this black man is concerned, Michael Steele is doing a decent job; far better than when he started.

I agree, he's making a better living than when he started, but if all he has to offer are catchy phrases from 1993, he's not doing too decent a job.

You should be more careful with your claims. Most black men who listen to or like rap music aren't misogynists.

Hahaha, I listen to rap. As well I know what I said.
Perhaps instead of getting overly-emotional and assuming I said all rap = mysoginistic, you should read that **** the Police gave rise to the stage rap has now. NWA started gangsta rap, which progressed to materialistic and overly sexual based lyrics that proclaim women as another object to be owned. No where does this say all rap is mysoginistic, it simply pointed out that some rap is.
Myself, I prefer things along the lines of Mos Def, KRS-one, etc. Though I'm also a fan of Wu-Tang Clan, Bone Thugs 'n' Harmony.

I'm sure they're in the vast minority.
I'm sure they are, but that doesn't change the fact that the idea in general is wrong. Don't get me wrong, I like NWA just fine, but pretty much every mTV rapper these days is an unoriginal rip-off.

Just because we listen to a song doesn't mean we agree with the singer's point of view. Case in point: How many of you like the movie "Terminator"? I know I did. However, there was a scene where Arnold Schwarzenegger killed an entire precinct of Police Officers. I don't recall many people getting up in arms over that.
I don't believe I ever said it was a bad thing to do, entertainment is just that. But I suppose I do have a problem with all the cheesy like movies such as "Terminators", "The Cyborg Killer", "The Hunter". If you can't do as good or better than the original, don't bother wasting my time and airspace. As well, it wouldn't exactly be kosher for elementary kids to be doing rhymes about a bitch is a bitch or killing a cop, which was my actual point.

So again, don't confuse my words because you want to create a controversy. I'm not Jimmy Carter. ;)


... I don't get it. This stuff happens, it will always happen, we can't do anything about it except be pissed off and argue about who's right and wrong when in reality everyone is wrong as far as someone else is concerned.

This whole thing is probably just scripted anyways. Sometimes politicians don't get good soundbytes on the news when they just keep complaining about each other, so they wait for some inane local news story and turn it into freakin' judgement day. The conservatives can complain about liberal indoctrination or some s*** and liberals can complain about the education system and after a week the story will die down and nothing will be done about it. The politicians get some nice bullet points for their next election, and a bunch of kids can brag to their grandparents this christmas that they got to sing on TV!

God Bless America, the biggest circus on Earth!

Well said, kind of makes me excited I'll be in Afghanistan in not too long. Something about an Afghani warlord yelling at me seems infinitely more exciting than continuing to listen to all this butt-hurt.

Totenkopf
09-30-2009, 04:01 PM
They can feel that way all they want, doesn't make it true.
Doesn't make it false either.


... It's kids and you complain it's amateurish?
You should be a play review at the Washington Post if you're going to rip on kids performance abilities.

Not the kids, the adults who arranged and scored it. Kids at that age are often just pieces of clay that are occasionally willfull and obstreperous.


It was all the way back in February for a show about Black History Month in which they did skits and performances in appreciations for monumental moments in black history. I suppose a song about Martin Luther King Jr. is also out of place.
I'll agree to one thing, it was a really poorly done song, but I don't think I'd really expect something like Rent from a New Jersey public school, they can't even get 45% of the kids to standard reading material levels.

It's just another in a series of vids that says more about the adults behind them than anything else. 45% likely at the end of high school even...:dev9:


Not really, we did plenty of stuff at my school for Bush. We had lots of talks about George Bush, then again I live in Texas and anything a Texan does or pretty much anything anyone does in the name of Texas is talked about, sung about, painted, interpretively danced to, etc.
As well kids have sung for Bush plenty of times, remember when he first visited the victims of Katrina and those kids sang of him and the work he and all agencies are doing to help them? Apparently not, but I do, and sadly only those at MSNBC did as well. And yes I do hesitate to mention them as I dislike them as much as you.

And to what extent were those discussions of Bush bordering on deification?:raise: That would have been wrong too, even for TX. ;) As to MSNBC, I never said you were ALL bad. :xp: :lol:





You're right, it is an accomplishment. The fact remains however that he is not recognized by his republican colleagues which kind of makes his headmanships purpose apparent. Michael Steele wasn't selected because of his work, he was selected because he's black, just as Palin was chosen because she's a woman. Considering there are better candidates in the Republican party to fill both of the token seats, it's just a little too easy to see.

The same was true of BO. His main virtue was that he was black and a true believer. He wasn't picked for his credentials, unless it was his apparent speech reading ability or relatively youthful appearance.

jonathan7
09-30-2009, 09:11 PM
Ok, this thread doesn't seem to be going anywhere fast; its been going round in circles for quite a while. Please do not use terms like "loony" to describe the extremists in a group, please us the word "extremist" or "fundementalist" -- please be civil to one another ;) -- j7

Ten-96
10-01-2009, 12:50 AM
Not really, there are many references this can be to, praise doesn't simply imply a religious aspect.

Sorry, but there aren't any other references to any other song other than "Jesus Loves the Little Children." The verse is virtually verbatim. Here it is again:

Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Black and yellow, red and white
They're all precious in His sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world

You'll notice that the word in bold are virtually identical to the ones recited in the video.

You're right, it is an accomplishment. The fact remains however that he is not recognized by his republican colleagues which kind of makes his headmanships purpose apparent. Michael Steele wasn't selected because of his work, he was selected because he's black, just as Palin was chosen because she's a woman. Considering there are better candidates in the Republican party to fill both of the token seats, it's just a little too easy to see.

Odd. I'm a Republican and I recognize Michael Steele's work. There are a lot of powerful conservatives who recognize Michael Steele's accomplishments. Congressman John Boehner as well as Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann. Rebublican Governors Pawlenty and Jindal are a couple of others.


Hahaha, I listen to rap. As well I know what I said.
Perhaps instead of getting overly-emotional and assuming I said all rap = mysoginistic, you should read that **** the Police gave rise to the stage rap has now. NWA started gangsta rap, which progressed to materialistic and overly sexual based lyrics that proclaim women as another object to be owned. No where does this say all rap is mysoginistic, it simply pointed out that some rap is.
Myself, I prefer things along the lines of Mos Def, KRS-one, etc. Though I'm also a fan of Wu-Tang Clan, Bone Thugs 'n' Harmony.

I did read it and I disagree with your assumption that I became emotional. You made a blanket statement which I countered.


I don't believe I ever said it was a bad thing to do, entertainment is just that. But I suppose I do have a problem with all the cheesy like movies such as "Terminators", "The Cyborg Killer", "The Hunter". If you can't do as good or better than the original, don't bother wasting my time and airspace. As well, it wouldn't exactly be kosher for elementary kids to be doing rhymes about a bitch is a bitch or killing a cop, which was my actual point.

So again, don't confuse my words because you want to create a controversy. I'm not Jimmy Carter. ;)

Again with the assumptions. I am not attempting to create a controversy. I simply disagreed with your statements and cited examples as counter. You mentioned the song, "F*** the Police" by NWA. When that song was released there were a lot of people who protested that song because of it's lyrics. I offered that while people were opposed to a derogatory song that was anti-police, they weren't opposed to a movie in which numerous police were killed.


Well said, kind of makes me excited I'll be in Afghanistan in not too long. Something about an Afghani warlord yelling at me seems infinitely more exciting than continuing to listen to all this butt-hurt.

As a soldier, you have my prayers and gratitude for your service. As far as the above quoted comment, why would you continue to post if you don't want a discussion? Just a reminder, the point of the discussion was the indoctrination of children using Obama as a figure of praise and why I believe it has no place in school.

mimartin
10-01-2009, 01:08 AM
I’ve seen a few indoctrinated and brainwashed comments made in this thread. Do people really have so little faith in our youth or have we forgotten what it means to be young? At least in my case, at that age, the more you tried to convince me of something, the further I went the other way.

It seems to me to be a simple school activity and nothing more. The same kind of thing we use to do in school back in the Stone Age. I see nothing offensive about it and I did not see anything offensive about it when we did school activities involving Nixon, Ford, Carter or Reagan. I was not brainwashed and neither will these children. Give the kids some credit.

So the Eyes of Texas and I’ve Been Working on The Railroad use the same music and some of the same words, does that mean University of Texas fans all want to be train conductors? How about God Save the Queen and God Bless America, does that mean American’s secretly want a monarch? The similarities in the songs shows a lack on musical aptitude not an attempt to brainwash children into worshiping President Obama.

Ten-96
10-01-2009, 02:38 AM
I’ve seen a few indoctrinated and brainwashed comments made in this thread. Do people really have so little faith in our youth or have we forgotten what it means to be young? At least in my case, at that age, the more you tried to convince me of something, the further I went the other way.

That may be the case with some, mi; but political views have no place in the public school system. These are the same people who outlawed prayer and Christmas in schools.


It seems to me to be a simple school activity and nothing more. The same kind of thing we use to do in school back in the Stone Age. I see nothing offensive about it and I did not see anything offensive about it when we did school activities involving Nixon, Ford, Carter or Reagan. I was not brainwashed and neither will these children. Give the kids some credit.

I have to disagree with you here. A simple school activity should be something like the history of or a report on the President - his back story and such. A simple school activity should not involve a song where the person's name is repeated numerous. Nor should it involve singing praise to that person.


So the Eyes of Texas and I’ve Been Working on The Railroad use the same music and some of the same words, does that mean University of Texas fans all want to be train conductors? How about God Save the Queen and God Bless America, does that mean American’s secretly want a monarch? The similarities in the songs shows a lack on musical aptitude not an attempt to brainwash children into worshiping President Obama.

Those songs aren't used in the same manner as the one in the video, though. God Save the Queen is a UK song to their monarch. God Bless America is a song to inspire pride in our country. The song in the video sings a song about Obama.

Tommycat
10-01-2009, 03:42 AM
Ten 96: Regarding your Terminator reference. Keep in mind that the one that did the killing was the BAD GUY. F*** the Police portrayed the police as the bad guy.

As to the original story... Not good. The deification of Obama kinda scares me. It's bordering on being a new religion. We start seeing Obama statues going up everywhere, I'm going into hiding.

@Bimmerman: Your video does not show hypocricy. Your video was at a private all volunteer religious event. I could hold one of those worshipping an AN/UYK-7 and in theory it is protected speech(I was gonna say doomsday bomb ala Beneath the Planet of the Apes, however the posession of the doomsday bomb, religious symbol or not, is not protected). HOWEVER in a public school using the children for some form of Obama "Pep Rally" is not protected speech. Pushing an agenda in a public school sets a very dangerous precident.

Believe me, I'm all for praising the first black(well half anyway) president. But did they sing songs of praise about the first black secretary of State?

And mimartin, it's America the Beautiful that you're thinking of. God Bless America was an Irving Berlin song written in the 30's and would not be confused for God save the Queen. Many of our songs from the formative years of the US were taken from old songs.... In fact The Star Spangled Banner music came from an old drinking song(kinda makes ya proud doesn't it?).

jonathan7
10-01-2009, 07:46 AM
Ok, I was staying out to referee, however the general British response to quite a few of the threads like this is "seriously"? Do all of you not think you are making a massive unclimable mountain out of a mole hill?

The fact is when Bush was in a lot of the left vilified him and printed all sorts of crazy things and made issues out of all sorts of things that weren't really issues. The right is now doing exactly the same thing; since Obama got in. US politics never used to be like this; not too the extent that the left and the right are at each others throats.

To be honest us Brits are generally bemused by you guys and politics; a lot of your politicians to be honest make ours seem like people who constantly tell the truth. I was sat on the train the other day, having a conversation with 2 old ladies and a young business man. The two elderly ladies supported the Conservatives and UKIP (what would be your "Republican" or right wing) - the young Business man was Liberal Democrat. And we all had a civilised discussion, where there wasn't name calling or dramatics, misrepresenting the others position or any sensatialism. I think the key this is thus;

There seems to be assumptions by a gross proportion of the right or left in America that those in opposition are “nuts” – there seems to the strange belief that the opposition is seeking the “destruction” of the country. Here in the UK regardless of the differences between the parties there is the recognition that despite our differences the different parties do want what’s best for the country; the difference is disagreements over what is best for the country.

Despite all the hysteria, Obama isn’t going to break the USA, he isn’t going to destroy your country, whatever else can be said politics is a cycle and the left and right hold each other in check as they go in and out of power. Despite all the accusations Bush didn't bring about the end of the US - nor will Obama.

At the topic; seriously I really don’t get what the issue is, its a bunch of kids singing a song; which seems similar to the Bush thing. Here it would just get laughed at as stupid (which it is) and that would be the end of the matter.

Ten-96
10-01-2009, 08:20 AM
I understand that is is different where you are, Johnathan7. If it were just the one video, I'm sure the fuss over it would die down eventually. However, it's not just the one video. There are others in which children are taught to sing, "...hear us Obama....deliver us Obama." It's just not the thing that should be happening in public schools. If a parent wants to do that sort of thing at home with their children, it's their right to do so. It is not the school's place nor is it the school's responsibility to do those things.

I pray that you are correct when you state that Obama isn't going to break the United States. I've looked into his background. I've researched (online) the people with whom he associated. I've watched statements he made as a State and U.S. Senator. I have come to my own conclusion that Obama doesn't respect nor does he have any regard for the Constitution. He wants to fundamentally change the country. He goes around the world apologizing for America while ignoring all that we have done for other nations. No other President in the history of this Nation has ever done that.

There's a lot more I could write here but I am way off topic, again.

mimartin
10-01-2009, 08:54 AM
That may be the case with some, mi; but political views have no place in the public school system. These are the same people who outlawed prayer and Christmas in schools. The very same? :rolleyes: Please name them for me.

I have to disagree with you here. A simple school activity should be something like the history of or a report on the President - his back story and such. A simple school activity should not involve a song where the person's name is repeated numerous. Nor should it involve singing praise to that person. We have a very different definition of the word simple and a equally different opinion of what is considered praising.

Those songs aren't used in the same manner as the one in the video, though. Your right, the Eyes of Texas and even I’ve Working on the Railroad are usually sung better. I’ve seen kids sing “I’m a Little Tea Pot” with great energy and conviction, does that mean we are teaching them to be Tea Pots?

It is a song nothing more, people sing songs all the time that they did not write and songs that have no real meaning to them. Some people just love to sing and others make money doing it.

If it were just the one video, I'm sure the fuss over it would die down eventually. However, it's not just the one video. There are others in which children are taught to sing, "...hear us Obama....deliver us Obama." Yes, it is a huge conspiracy. White unimaginative teachers trying to come up with a lesson plan for Black History Month and African Americans and other minority group teachers thrilled to see American’s first minority President. Now when teachers tell children they can be anything even President of the United States, it can be true for all students and not just the 32.8% of white males.

Bimmerman
10-01-2009, 09:51 AM
Ok, I was staying out to referee, however the general British response to quite a few of the threads like this is "seriously"? Do all of you not think you are making a massive unclimable mountain out of a mole hill?

The fact is when Bush was in a lot of the left vilified him and printed all sorts of crazy things and made issues out of all sorts of things that weren't really issues. The right is now doing exactly the same thing; since Obama got in. US politics never used to be like this; not too the extent that the left and the right are at each others throats.

To be honest us Brits are generally bemused by you guys and politics; a lot of your politicians to be honest make ours seem like people who constantly tell the truth. I was sat on the train the other day, having a conversation with 2 old ladies and a young business man. The two elderly ladies supported the Conservatives and UKIP (what would be your "Republican" or right wing) - the young Business man was Liberal Democrat. And we all had a civilised discussion, where there wasn't name calling or dramatics, misrepresenting the others position or any sensatialism. I think the key this is thus;

There seems to be assumptions by a gross proportion of the right or left in America that those in opposition are “nuts” – there seems to the strange belief that the opposition is seeking the “destruction” of the country. Here in the UK regardless of the differences between the parties there is the recognition that despite our differences the different parties do want what’s best for the country; the difference is disagreements over what is best for the country.

Despite all the hysteria, Obama isn’t going to break the USA, he isn’t going to destroy your country, whatever else can be said politics is a cycle and the left and right hold each other in check as they go in and out of power. Despite all the accusations Bush didn't bring about the end of the US - nor will Obama.

At the topic; seriously I really don’t get what the issue is, its a bunch of kids singing a song; which seems similar to the Bush thing. Here it would just get laughed at as stupid (which it is) and that would be the end of the matter.

As an Ex-Pat American living in Munich, I couldn't agree more.

This is the "hypocrisy" I was talking about earlier-- When Bush was in power, the left made ridiculous statements, made mountains out of molehills, and cried foul when religious children were indoctrinated into worshipping him.

Now that Obama's in power, what exactly has changed? Nothing; the sides merely swapped. Now the right vilifies the left with slander (like the left did to the right circa two years ago), blowing tiny issues (like this one) waaaaaaay out of proportion, and is crying foul when a liberal teacher post a video about a song her class sung for black history month.

This is so unimportant it beggars belief as to why people care so much. It really is mind-bottling how this is somehow new, different, and poses a great threat to American life. This is no different from what the right was doing three years ago, the sides have simply switched.

@Ten-96-- where exactly is this more than one video or the systematic liberal conspiracy you think it to be? All indications point to it not being anything more than what has already been discussed to death. The "hear us Obama, Deliver us Obama" bit that you are objecting so vehemently to is...well..different how? from the Jesus camp shenaniganry (not just the clip I posted, but the whole political movement shown in the movie)? It's not, just you're worried since it's about a Democrat i.e. Obama.

There are seriously much more important issues to spend your time and mental anguish on, not what children do or do not sing or what religious overtones it may or may not have.

I pray that you are correct when you state that Obama isn't going to break the United States. I've looked into his background. I've researched (online) the people with whom he associated. I've watched statements he made as a State and U.S. Senator. I have come to my own conclusion that Obama doesn't respect nor does he have any regard for the Constitution. He wants to fundamentally change the country. He goes around the world apologizing for America while ignoring all that we have done for other nations. No other President in the history of this Nation has ever done that.

Well, that's your right. I disagree with your thoughts on Obama, pretty much entirely.

You really think that we don't have anything to apologize for? Our nation isn't flawless, nor do we have an astoundingly amazing track record...we're very much a nation of hypocrites, liars, and villians like most other countries. We simply have the benefit of being a very young country that tends to do more right than wrong rather than any abject moral superiority. Having a strong military and economy does much more for international recognition, respect, and prestige than anything else. You I am sure disagree, and that's fine, I don't especially care.

Jae Onasi
10-01-2009, 11:16 AM
Well, all it looks like to me is that they need to change the lyrics a bit to eliminate the content that looks like religion since this is a public school, but otherwise singing a song about Obama isn't a big deal. In fact, singing and music are a big part of the richness of black culture, so it's hardly a surprise that people have made songs about Obama.

Darth InSidious
10-01-2009, 02:01 PM
The two elderly ladies supported the Conservatives and UKIP (what would be your "Republican" or right wing)
Actually, they'd be equivalent to the liberal end of the Democrats. Our 'centre' is the US' idea of loony-left. :p

And just to answer a rather unrelated point, the song's lyrics about Obama couldn't really be described as religious, but it is hard to deny that there has been a distinctly messianic tinge to the aura surrounding your new President, and particularly the terms in which his election has been couched.

Perhaps that's because he had a snowball's chance in hell, I don't know. What I do know is that in four or eight years you won't be able to kick him out fast enough.

Totenkopf
10-01-2009, 03:20 PM
....it is hard to deny that there has been a distinctly messianic tinge to the aura surrounding your new President, and particularly the terms in which his election has been couched.

Perhaps that's because he had a snowball's chance in hell, I don't know. What I do know is that in four or eight years you won't be able to kick him out fast enough.

Hell, we couldn't kick him out fast enough now, never mind 4-8 years from now. :devsmoke: Seriously, though, I saw the other day where not all of his opposition had bad things to say about him. However, much of the good seemed to be to the effect that he hadn't completely unraveled Iraq w/ a precipitous w/drawl and that he'd paid some attention to Afghanistan (current flap about Gen. McChrystal notwithstanding).

@Bim--@Ten-96-- where exactly is this more than one video or the systematic liberal conspiracy you think it to be? All indications point to it not being anything more than what has already been discussed to death. The "hear us Obama, Deliver us Obama" bit that you are objecting so vehemently to is...well..different how? from the Jesus camp shenaniganry (not just the clip I posted, but the whole political movement shown in the movie)? It's not, just you're worried since it's about a Democrat i.e. Obama.

The difference is that the Obama crap is being done in the public school system and had it been about Jesus or some other religious figure there would have been a hue and cry about "Seperation of Church and State" from the left, esp atheists. The problem isn't Obama the democrat, but Obama the radical political figure and the types that have followed him into govt. Given the love of politicians and lawyers for precedent, anything he does to "fundamentally transform" America will be very difficult to reverse. If only it were as simple as you seem to believe that the people in govt are so easily interchangable w/little to no obvious difference.

Bimmerman
10-01-2009, 04:01 PM
The difference is that the Obama crap is being done in the public school system and had it been about Jesus or some other religious figure there would have been a hue and cry about "Seperation of Church and State" from the left, esp atheists. The problem isn't Obama the democrat, but Obama the radical political figure and the types that have followed him into govt. Given the love of politicians and lawyers for precedent, anything he does to "fundamentally transform" America will be very difficult to reverse. If only it were as simple as you seem to believe that the people in govt are so easily interchangable w/little to no obvious difference.

show me a systematically increasing number of videos showing school children singing songs about Obama, and I'll believe you. Hell, show me multiple videos of said children singing about him from different school districts, and then I'll agree it's a big problem.

As it is now, it is simply a single teacher behaving inappropriately. Nothing terrible to the extent you and the other posters are exaggerating.

Totenkopf
10-01-2009, 04:32 PM
As it is now, it is simply a single teacher behaving inappropriately. Nothing terrible to the extent you and the other posters are exaggerating.

..... As this one occurred during Black History month and was only released on Yuotube recently, it's impossible to say with certitude how much of this has been going on around the country. That the Dept of Ed would think to include materials for his recent speech that had the students consider what they would do to help the President's agenda (hence politicizing the event) says that the "adults" in charge probably need to go back to school themselves for civics lessons.

I would disagree with you in the sense that I'm not claiming a conspiracy so much as yet more of the same kind of behavior from progressive libs. They tend to predominate heavily in areas like education, media, etc... Since they are obviously libs in the contemporary sense, it is the "liberals" fault. They've certainly created an environment where these kinds of people feel very comfortable doing something like this.


Actually, I've not exaggerated anything. I pointed out above that it's impossible with certitude to determine how widespread this is. We both agree that it's inappropriate. The one jumping to hyperbole was you w/Jesus Camp. When Jesus Camp makes it's debut in the public school system, I'll complain then. ;) If you want numbers of incidents (and are actually interested beyond using rhetorical devices) google it or try youtube. I don't claim that large numbers have been documented, as even a handfull would be odius enough.

Pavlos
10-01-2009, 04:58 PM
Actually, they'd be equivalent to the liberal end of the Democrats. Our 'centre' is the US' idea of loony-left. :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuZ46v5SftI

Bimmerman
10-01-2009, 05:10 PM
Actually, I've not exaggerated anything. I pointed out above that it's impossible with certitude to determine how widespread this is. We both agree that it's inappropriate. The one jumping to hyperbole was you w/Jesus Camp. When Jesus Camp makes it's debut in the public school system, I'll complain then. ;) If you want numbers of incidents (and are actually interested beyond using rhetorical devices) google it or try youtube. I don't claim that large numbers have been documented, as even a handfull would be odius enough.

Fair enough, I see your point. I don't believe this is any more widespread than Jesus Camp-esque shenanigans are. We are agreed in that this shouldn't have happened at all..... I just seriously doubt it's widespread.

Totenkopf
10-01-2009, 05:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuZ46v5SftI

@Pavlos---Cute bit. Who were they?

Pavlos
10-01-2009, 09:32 PM
"Beyond the Fringe"; Jonathan Miller, now a director; Alan Bennett, who is surely one of the greatest playwrights writing in English at the moment; perhaps most famous for the Talking Heads series of monologues commissioned for the BBC and The History Boys (http://www.premiere.fr/Bandes-annonces/Video/The-History-boys-Ext1); Peter Cook and Dudley Moore, the great comedians; both, unfortunately, dead.

Anyway, I'm afraid I've dragged the thread off topic.

Brin_Londo5
10-01-2009, 11:25 PM
Just to be clear, I am opposed to anyone trying to force their political views on children - be they Conservative or Liberal. However, praying for the President and sing a song of praise to the President seem to be two completely different things to me.

As a former Marine, I agree with this statement.
(However, living in the midwest, I see a lot of stuff that has been going on the past eight years that makes Jesus Camp look like Romper Room in comparison, including folks who seemed convinced that Bush was the Second Coming of Jesus.)
But let me make one thing clear, as deplorable as I find BOTH sides on nonsense like this, I swore an oath to uphold THE CONSTITUTION, not the FLAG.

The Flag is cloth and dye, and any politician, left OR right can wrap themselves in it and say they know what's best for this country.

And they're usually lying, they know what's best for themselves, their PAC contributors, and their political party.

And I learned (as my father did before me in Viet Nam) that when some yahoo of a politician wraps himself in the flag AND the Bible, they're lying through their TEETH.

Totenkopf
11-04-2009, 06:45 PM
show me a systematically increasing number of videos showing school children singing songs about Obama, and I'll believe you. Hell, show me multiple videos of said children singing about him from different school districts, and then I'll agree it's a big problem.

As it is now, it is simply a single teacher behaving inappropriately. Nothing terrible to the extent you and the other posters are exaggerating.

Hmm....
http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/jjmnolte/2009/11/04/elementary-epidemic-11-uncovered-videos-show-school-children-performing-praises-to-obama/

Bimmerman
11-07-2009, 04:17 AM
Well, that sure does look like lots of students singing songs about Obama.

and to be honest.....I couldn't care less. On the list of important things wrong in our society, having schoolchildren identify with a role model is pretty far down it. Is it right for the teachers to have done this? No. Do I really care? Also a big resounding no.

Remember the whole "intelligent design" debacle? Religious nuts wanted to push outright lies and theology into the science classroom. Most people with a brain objected, and this war on science hasn't gotten far thankfully (as if the US needs another reason to be further behind the rest of the world in science). This could be seen as a counter point to that. Some teachers getting the genius idea of using class time and resources to espouse their love for Obama, with most people with a brain objecting. However, in terms of what is more detrimental to the children, singing about the current sitting president or the undermining of science....I'm going to pick the undermining of science. Singing songs is pretty much harmless.

Children, especially in middle and high school, are more than capable of detecting bullscheisse and are also quite adept at forming their own opinions. As I've said before, I've had the misfortune to have numerous extremely liberal activist teachers in my pre-college career. It hasn't affected my political leanings one bit (if you think I'm a liberal...or even left leaning...your definitions suck). Give the kids some credit.

I've changed my opinions on this whole matter...I really just don't care about kids singing about Obama. It doesn't affect me, doesn't offend me, doesn't even bother me. This whole issue just seems like a waste of time; there has got to be some issue more pressing than this...

Totenkopf
11-07-2009, 09:48 AM
Ah.... shifting sands and goalposts. I only added that link for you b/c I recently saw something about it and recalled your demanding more evidence. Apparently far more prevelent than the Jesus Camp that scared the bejesus out of you. Actually, you're correct about this much, not all kids are buffaloed by the bs in school.....especially in the field of the pseudoscience of man-made global warming. Unfortunately, not all kids are as discriminating in what they believe as you'd like people to believe. Get kids while they're young and the most defenseless and you're going to sway sufficient numbers of them over time (afterall, that was an underlying fear you have about the Jesus camp people......even though a lot of atheists started out as theists). Btw, if they were merely singing songs to a president, that'd be one thing. Songs glorifying the man are something else. If you hear the same kinds of lies often enough and uncontested, well, you do the math.

Ten-96
11-08-2009, 01:03 AM
I've changed my opinions on this whole matter...I really just don't care about kids singing about Obama. It doesn't affect me, doesn't offend me, doesn't even bother me. This whole issue just seems like a waste of time; there has got to be some issue more pressing than this...

I would have responded a lot sooner but I was off and went to DC on Thursday to protest the health care system takeover.

I agree that there more things that are far more important to be discussed about this President and his administration. This topic is just one of the many things that should be noted.

Bimmerman
11-09-2009, 01:40 AM
I would have responded a lot sooner but I was off and went to DC on Thursday to protest the health care system takeover.

I agree that there more things that are far more important to be discussed about this President and his administration. This topic is just one of the many things that should be noted.

First, I wish I had a job with vacation time as flexible as yours.

Second, this particular topic has absolutely nothing to do with the administration currently in office. What I mean by that (to preempt replies of "are you blind") is simply to say that there has been no legislation, executive order, mandate, or anything whatsoever from on high dictating, requiring, or requesting songs be sung for Obama. As Totenkopf (rightfully) says, it is simply adoration for/of him. I don't agree with it but I also am not bothered by it.

To say that this topic is about the President or his administration would be as incorrect as if I had said Jesus Camp was a directive of the Bush admin....both cases are just people off their rocker looking for attention. Not the stuff of policy, official or unofficial.