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Arcesious
09-27-2009, 12:46 AM
Concerning marriage laws today, what are your veiws, and why? This thread is not intended for debate over same-sex marriage, because that debate has been done to death already. Instead, I'd like this thread to focus the other two controversies - polygamy and consanguine marriage.

Inherently, I don't agree with polygamy, but I don't know anything about the psychological side of it, so I currently don't have a reasoned opinion on whether or not its good or bad. If anyone knows of any unbiased research about it, then perhaps I can form a debatable opinion about it after looking over that information.

Then there's consanguine marriage. To me it seems like something that shouldn't be against the law at any degree. Marriage to cousins doesn't seem to be such a big deal anymore, and is for the most part legal at least for 2nd cousins. But then there's the question of marriage between a brother and sister.

The laws about consanguine marriage are, officially, in place because of the genetic issues that can arise in offspring from inbreeding. Unofficially, I think that laws against close consanguine marriage are also still in place in many countries because of the essentially cosmopolitan taboo against it. If you are pro consanguine marriage of close relatives, what solutions to the genetic issue of it can you think of?

I've been debating with myself whether or not to make this topic, but I decided I'd like to hear other people's opinions and perhaps stir up a bit of a debate...

Jae Onasi
09-27-2009, 01:11 AM
The risk of genetic disorders goes up dramatically with marriages to first cousins and closer, because the risk of the offspring receiving 2 recessive genes that cause a variety of recessive disorders is much higher. The goal is to increase the gene pool, not decrease it by inbreeding. Genetic disorders do not benefit society, as we've seen repeatedly throughout history (Egypt during certain times, the Hapsburgs). There is good reason to continue to ban any marriages closer in relations than 2nd cousins.

Totenkopf
09-27-2009, 01:50 AM
@Jae--Don't forget the Windsors. :D

@topic--if you find what you consider unbiased research on polygamy, post it. Don't think it's a style suited to modern western sensebilities. As to "inbreeding", the only real argument I could see for it would be in a closed political system where the goal is for a small (relative to population) group of people to preserve their power over everyone else. Still, not particularly smart for reasons Jae already mentioned.

jonathan7
09-27-2009, 09:25 AM
Not meaning to start a religious debate, but it would seem to me from a philosophical stand point that if we are nothing more than animals then given that "polygamy" is practiced by many members of the animal kingdom why shouldn't humans do it? If one adopts a moral stance, then what is the basis for that morality? Obviously I will adopt a Christian viewpoint which disagrees with polygamy as it violates the sanctity of marriage.

Though I confess I'm not much fussed what others do; polygamy is rife in much of the Muslim world, due to it being allowed under Islam. I donít think that polygamy will become widespread in the west due to the fact that generally there is around 1 to 1 girl. Though there are a few a few examples from history of it happening in the West, not strictly polygomny but the Lebensborn Children (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn) are I think the closest Europe has gotten to it in the modern era. Nepalese society is both matrilocal and polygamous in nature, whereby the men often have to spend months in the wild, so several (often) brothers would marry the same woman one would stay to look after the family and the rest go out to work. Woman were much rarer in this particular society.

It seems to me that polygamies prevelance has a lot to do with the population dynamics related to the sexes. In other words in a society where you have say 4 woman to 1 man, you may well be likely to get polygamy. But where it is a ratio closer to 1:1 you won't get it.

From the scientific studies I have read, several things seem to be indicated; that life partners are healthy - and indeed married couples fair better in health tests than single individuals; that marriage break up results in a decrease in an individuals health. And that an unhappy marriage will keep the two individuals healthier, than if they were to go there seperate ways. I'm unsure of any scientific studies with regards the effects of polygamy; though I would hypthesize, you may well see Infanticide between respective partners killing the others children; and I would suggest increased stress levels between each other, and finally perhaps a decrease in health among the sex where there is more than one in the marriage.

With regards consanguine marriage Arc - your cousins hot isn't she? :xp:

I think Jae has already put across a good argument against it.

Arcesious
09-27-2009, 11:33 AM
Well, a bit of research reveals that incest avoidance is an evolutionary adaptation in humans. Apparently it has to do with pheromones excreted from sweat glands. Your sense of smell. For example, the way your perceive how someone smells after a session of exercise. One person may smell like onions and make you want to avoid them, whilst another may smell like something nice, such as strawberries.

So, if they smell like onions or something foul, they're considerably homozygous in genes compared to you, whilst someone who smells good to you is considerably heterozygous in genes compared to you.

Therefore, if you have a brother, sister, or a close relative, they'll probably be much more repelled by the way you smell than someone who isn't related to you.

So, generally, our genes make us try to avoid it in the first place. However, I wonder what decision should be made by a court, if, say, a brother and sister were seperated at birth and then fell in love with each other later in life without realizing that they were related, and then it's discovered that they're related so closely. Obviously procreation isn't a requirement for marriage.


With regards consanguine marriage Arc - your cousins hot isn't she?

Facepalm...

Jae Onasi
09-27-2009, 11:46 AM
Well, a bit of research reveals that incest avoidance is an evolutionary adaptation in humans. A bit of research also says God said it's a really dumb thing to do for reasons stated above.

jrrtoken
09-27-2009, 12:03 PM
A bit of research also says God said it's a really dumb thing to do for reasons stated above.Curious, God also seems fine with the fact that the human race is the product incestuous relations, as per his own words. Either we can bring up the "Genesis shouldn't be interpreted literally" debacle, or there's some glaring discrepensies that borederline hypocrisy that we'll have to address, if we give the Bible scientific merit in this debate.

Mono_Giganto
09-27-2009, 12:39 PM
For example, the way your perceive how someone smells after a session of exercise [...], like something nice, such as strawberries.

...You know someone who smells like strawberries after they exercise?

Jae Onasi
09-27-2009, 12:48 PM
Curious, God also seems fine with the fact that the human race is the product incestuous relations, as per his own words. Either we can bring up the "Genesis shouldn't be interpreted literally" debacle, or there's some glaring discrepensies that borederline hypocrisy that we'll have to address, if we give the Bible scientific merit in this debate.Well, when you have 2 genetically perfect people at the beginning, you can allow that sort of thing for awhile. The incest rules weren't established until later after the gene pool had developed detrimental mutations. I'm just pointing out that God wisely had commentary on it long before science figured out why it was bad, but if you don't believe in God, please feel free to ignore that part as not necessarily relevant to you.

...You know someone who smells like strawberries after they exercise? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Don't know about anyone else, but my hubby does not smell at all like strawberries after running several miles. :lol:

Arcesious
09-27-2009, 01:33 PM
...You know someone who smells like strawberries after they exercise?

Indeed.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Don't know about anyone else, but my hubby does not smell at all like strawberries after running several miles. :lol:

Which is evidence to the fact that smell and pheromones aren't always necessarily relevent to humans in choosing a 'mate'. :)

Curious, God also seems fine with the fact that the human race is the product incestuous relations, as per his own words. Either we can bring up the "Genesis shouldn't be interpreted literally" debacle, or there's some glaring discrepensies that borederline hypocrisy that we'll have to address, if we give the Bible scientific merit in this debate.

Well as long as it doesn't get heated beyond context. I myself find that sometimes, verses are taken out of context in a debate about contradictions in the Bible... And if this thread goes towards that realm of debate, I probably will avoid arguing about it because I am not an expert on the Bible.

Zerimar Nyliram
09-27-2009, 01:44 PM
Marriage is something that the government should have kept its hands off of to begin with. Marriage should have been left completely to the churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, etc. (or, for the non-religious who still hold it as important, civil ceremonies) and should never have been made a legal status. If politicians had kept their noses out of where they didn't belong, we would not be having quite as many problems with this issue today. The same goes for education.

As for me, I can't say I am against same-sex marriage, but I definitely don't support it, either. I have my values, but I can't force them on others. People are free to be who they want to be. As such, I think this is a matter that should remain as is currently is: leave it up to the states. The federal government should not rule either way.

Jae Onasi
09-27-2009, 01:54 PM
Which is evidence to the fact that smell and pheromones aren't always necessarily relevent to humans in choosing a 'mate'. :)

I don't believe I've ever heard of anyone choosing a mate because they smelled like strawberries, before or after a workout.

Mono_Giganto
09-27-2009, 01:55 PM
I don't believe I've ever heard of anyone choosing a mate because they smelled like strawberries, before or after a workout.

And here I was about to ask Arcesious if he'd introduce me to this person...

Totenkopf
09-27-2009, 05:23 PM
And here I was about to ask Arcesious if he'd introduce me to this person...

He's already got his own eyes on his "hot cousin", M_G. 3'd only be a crowd, and kinky to boot. :naughty: :D

Arcesious
09-27-2009, 06:00 PM
He's already got his own eyes on his "hot cousin", M_G. 3'd only be a crowd, and kinky to boot. :naughty: :D

:rolleyes: If you really want to know, she was a hot girl way back in elementary school whom I am in no way related to. I haven't seen her for three years, but I still remember her always smelling like strawberries after PE class.

As such, I think this is a matter that should remain as is currently is: leave it up to the states. The federal government should not rule either way.

Only problem is that this solution doesn't solve anything. States are just a different level of government. Even at the state level - making statutes either way is still a sweeping motion that will effect the millions of people in that state just like a federal law would.

Totenkopf
09-27-2009, 06:35 PM
:rolleyes: If you really want to know, she was a hot girl way back in elementary school whom I am in no way related to. I haven't seen her for three years, but I still remember her always smelling like strawberries after PE class.

Lighten up. :p Was just playing off J7's comment and M_G's "interest". ;) It did remind me of a joke out of one of Dave Atell's comedy bits, though....

Hallucination
09-27-2009, 07:04 PM
I read this in the paper a day or so ago, it's about a polygamous sect of the Church of Latter Day Saints in the interior of B.C. that was busted a short while ago. Might be interesting fuel for this thread. (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/09/26/angela-campbell-bountiful-needs-a-critical-assesment.aspx)


:rolleyes: If you really want to know, she was a hot girl way back in elementary school whom I am in no way related to.
Quoted for lulz 2 da wulz.
I haven't seen her for three years, but I still remember her always smelling like strawberries after PE class.
Do you remember that time between PE and the next class? The one where you went into a room with the rest of the boys and she went into another with the rest of the girls?

She put on perfume/deodorant/some kind of scent at that time.

That or strawberries smell really weird where you live.

Arcesious
09-27-2009, 08:27 PM
~snip~

You three are enjoying this, aren't you? :p

Anyways... So are you pointing out that I'm probably wrong about the sense of smell thing? Maybe I am. I'll have to look into it further.

Totenkopf
09-27-2009, 08:32 PM
Yeah. :devsmoke: But seriously, Hal makes a good point. Unless she smelled like strawberries as soon as she finished gym class, before changing back for regular classes, it was most likely perfume.....or REALLY funky strawberries. :D

Hallucination
09-27-2009, 08:41 PM
You three are enjoying this, aren't you? :p
You have no idea.
Anyways... So are you pointing out that I'm probably wrong about the sense of smell thing? Maybe I am. I'll have to look into it further.
All I know is that no one in recorded history had sweat glands that produced strawberry juice. o_Q

jonathan7
09-27-2009, 09:18 PM
http://happyherbivores.com/Hygiene_MakeUp/pics/terra_naturals_strawberry_deodorant.jpg

Guaranteed to attract Arc's since 2003 (especially if your his cousin :xp:)

On a more serious note. To address your point to me earlier Arc, there have been papers on twin siblings seperated at birth, then meeting in later life; being far more likely to fall in love with each other. Then they find out the truth - raises interesting question; in Britain there was a legal precident here Click Me (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3171716.ece)

Mono_Giganto
09-27-2009, 09:32 PM
You three are enjoying this, aren't you? :p

...Yeah, basically. :p

Jae Onasi
09-28-2009, 12:00 AM
Do you remember that time between PE and the next class? The one where you went into a room with the rest of the boys and she went into another with the rest of the girls? *Jae falls off her chair laughing*
*Jae pulls muscles guffawing*
*Jae laughs so hard she's run out of air and is now twitching*

She put on perfume/deodorant/some kind of scent at that time.Or a strawberry shampoo, but my bet is on Loves Baby Soft or Strawberry Kiwi body spray from Bath and Body Works.

That or strawberries smell really weird where you live.You never know in that part of the US. :xp:

My hubby read a study about pheromones in his genetics class about 12 years back--men worked out in t-shirts. Women came in after the men left and sniffed the shirts. Apparently the study paid quite well for them to do this. Anyway, women were attracted to the scent of men who were more genetically dissimilar to them, unless they were pregnant. Pregnant women had a tendency to pick the scent of men who were more genetically similar to them. I should add that there was no mention of strawberries, or any other fruit scent, in that study.

Mono_Giganto
09-28-2009, 12:05 AM
I should add that there was no mention of strawberries, or any other fruit scent, in that study.

How are you so certain? Unless you also read the study, that seems like an odd thing for your husband to have specified in his summarization.

"So, basically, this is what happened. Also, nobody smelled like strawberries, in case you were wondering." :p

Hallucination
09-28-2009, 12:07 AM
Or a strawberry shampoo, but my bet is on Loves Baby Soft or Strawberry Kiwi body spray from Bath and Body Works.
Pfft, communal bathing is so passé, but that's a topic for another day.
How are you so certain? Unless you also read the study, that seems like an odd thing for your husband to have specified in his summarization.

"So, basically, this is what happened. Also, nobody smelled like strawberries, in case you were wondering." :p
The study also ruled out kiwis, ginseng, and lilac.

Jae Onasi
09-28-2009, 01:28 AM
How are you so certain? Unless you also read the study, that seems like an odd thing for your husband to have specified in his summarization.

I asked him "Honey, did they mention strawberries or any other fruit?" He was very amused.

Darth InSidious
09-28-2009, 05:44 AM
@Jae--Don't forget the Windsors. :D

Pro-tip: If you're insulting them, they're Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Mountbattens. :p

Mono_Giganto
09-28-2009, 08:19 AM
I asked him "Honey, did they mention strawberries or any other fruit?" He was very amused.

Alright, fair enough I'll let that one go. :p

Web Rider
09-28-2009, 01:55 PM
Marriage is something that the government should have kept its hands off of to begin with. Marriage should have been left completely to the churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, etc. (or, for the non-religious who still hold it as important, civil ceremonies) and should never have been made a legal status. If politicians had kept their noses out of where they didn't belong, we would not be having quite as many problems with this issue today. The same goes for education.

Which is all fine and dandy, except for the role of government is expressly contradictory to what you want. The whole point of a government is to ensure the longevity of it's people. Incestuous relationships and no education do not promote that goal. As well, "leave it up to the states" is a poor argument because if one state, say, California, decides to publicly educate it's children, and another, say, Kansas, does not, we're going to start seeing HUGE discrepancies in the general well-being of their people. The Federal government was created expressly because the "strong states" concept of the Confederated States of America didn't work. It provides a foundation to make all people within it's borders fairly equitable, and then allows the states to build on that.

Is there an argument for smaller government(States AND Federal), yes I think there is, but I don't think you've got the whole point of why we don't leave major decisions like that up to the individual states.

In addition, marriage laws were added for legal clarification, such as who can see whom in a hospital, who gets the benefits of this or that when someone dies, and how two people under such a contract should be treated. It would be unbelievably silly to make people get remarried in every state, and would only serve to promote isolation among stable and happy families. I mean, consider that you lose you job in State A, and have to move. You have a really good job offer in State B, but State B wants you to get "remarried" and different rules will now apply to you, your spouse, and your children, possibly detrimental rules. This is why the Fed steps in and says: "hey guys, here's the basics for all marriages everywhere." And from there on, States can add rules or nullify YOUR SPECIFIC marriage, but you never have to start from zero.(with the current exception of homosexual marriage.)



As for me, I can't say I am against same-sex marriage, but I definitely don't support it, either. I have my values, but I can't force them on others. People are free to be who they want to be. As such, I think this is a matter that should remain as is currently is: leave it up to the states. The federal government should not rule either way.
Once again, the Fed is supposed to be the institution that lays the ground rules that states build upon. While I agree they often go too far, this is what they generally do, and considering our position in the world, I'd say it's working out pretty well.

Darth InSidious
09-28-2009, 03:23 PM
You think America has problems with big government? :rofl: :rofl:

Oh, you naive, naive people. You don't even have departments for children, for women and equality, culture, sport, the Olympics, or Business, Innovation and Skills (tm) yet.

Totenkopf
09-28-2009, 05:32 PM
You think America has problems with big government? :rofl: :rofl:

Oh, you naive, naive people. You don't even have departments for children, for women and equality, culture, sport, the Olympics, or Business, Innovation and Skills (tm) yet.

Pro-tip: If you're insulting them, they're Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Mountbattens.


Give the progressives in this country enough time and.......;)

Ehh.......they're all a bunch of inbred mongrels spiced w/the odd hemophiliac , but point taken. :D

Q
09-28-2009, 11:28 PM
Damn, that's harsh. :p

Darth InSidious
09-29-2009, 05:34 AM
Ehh.......they're all a bunch of inbred mongrels spiced w/the odd hemophiliac , but point taken. :D

Oh, another pro-tip: When we do it, it's funny; when you insult them, you insult the nation.

Q
09-29-2009, 05:38 AM
Sort of like when African-Americans call each other the "n" word. Same situation. ;)

Totenkopf
09-29-2009, 06:03 AM
Oh, another pro-tip: When we do it, it's funny; when you insult them, you insult the nation.

Perhaps, but what Brit doesn't take what he thinks an obligatory shot at Americans. That's what friends are for, eh....;)

Darth InSidious
09-29-2009, 08:12 AM
Yeah, that and using your country as extra military/diplomatic muscle and a place to dump airfields.

Totenkopf
09-29-2009, 03:32 PM
Yeah, that and using our country as extra military/diplomatic muscle and a place to dump airfields.

fixed, as I'm guessing that was a potshot at us across the pond. o_Q

El Sitherino
09-29-2009, 04:16 PM
What an exciting discussion about the various forms of marriage.

Anyway, I can't see any harm coming from consenting adults marrying as many people as they want. It's not like they couldn't get divorced anyway. If half of all marriages end in divorce then it's really more like wading through the results. At least one or two of the brides/husbands will work out as a lasting relationship and the others will just move on to another round of eliminations.

We could probably co-create a reality program with the Brits on this, since we like to share horrible tv-show ideas.

Jae Onasi
10-01-2009, 07:59 PM
You think America has problems with big government? :rofl: :rofl:

Oh, you naive, naive people. You don't even have departments for children, for women and equality, culture, sport, the Olympics, or Business, Innovation and Skills (tm) yet.Yes we do, we just call them normal names instead of enhancing obfuscation by calling them some fancy-schmancy politically correct Brit name. :xp: