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Phantom Knight
10-09-2009, 05:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z273QN3_Qwo

Watch the vid if you already havent. Many of you are aware of the controversial skit made on the second reunion of Hey, Hey! Its Saturday! where six medical practioners performed an impersonation of the Jackson Five, where they all wore makeup to resemble African Americans.

One of the judges, Harry Connick Jr, gave them a zero - because he thought the act was racist and offensive to his people. The recorded content of the skit was reviewed globally, specifically the United States to give their opinion. It was of course very negative, and went as far as outlining us Australians as a "racist backwater".

Now for my opinion. I'm on nobody's side. I'm generally not racist. I watched the skit myself and have mixed comments running around my head.

I did think it was abit of a cheap laugh, nothing harmless at first. But yes, I do acknowledge it was offensive in some areas - and I'm greateful that our country have apologized for any offense caused.

But the one thing that annoys me is America's hypocrisy. After watching that, what makes your country any different? The United States is without a doubt one of the most racist countries on the globe. That skit was nothing, compared to what you people have done in the past.

The evidence is within your Media; Tropic Thunder in particular. I remember Robert Downey Jr protraying an Australian actor whom plays a black man.

I also remember a Simpson's Episode where the family took a trip down under, and basically made a mockery of our own country and heritage - We do not favor Corporate Punishment as a means of justice. Family Guy is also another example of racism. I've seen many episodes where White People mock African Americans based upon stereotypes.

My conclusion; some of you Americans are typical, hypocritical idiots. At least Australia apologizes for most of our mistakes - most notably, the Stolen Generation of Aboriginals. If you claim we are a racist backwater country, then you are no different from the rest of us.

Peace -.-

Astor
10-09-2009, 06:14 AM
I accidentally flicked onto Fox News this morning while watching the news channels, and this was being discussed on the O'Reilly Factor.

One of the women on the panel was pretty much claiming that everyone in Australia were, as you say, backwards racists because of this. O'Reilly piped up, and instead of agreeing with her, he defended the Australians, and said that it amounted to a 'stupid decision' on the part of the Producers of the show, and was nothing to do with the fact that Australians are apparently 'backwards' as his guest claimed.

I never thought i'd say this, but I agree with what Bill O'Reilly said. :explode:

Totenkopf
10-09-2009, 07:12 AM
I've been to Oz and while I've found you guys like to put others down for their foibles as you see it, I didn't find you any more or less racist than us.

ForeverNight
10-09-2009, 04:30 PM
THAT's Racist!?!?!?!??!?! I didn't think it was particularly funny, but I didn't think it was racist. I mean, how is that racist of offensive? Can somebody here explain that to me?

Det. Bart Lasiter
10-09-2009, 04:52 PM
I accidentally flicked onto Fox News this morning while watching the news channels, and this was being discussed on the O'Reilly Factor.

One of the women on the panel was pretty much claiming that everyone in Australia were, as you say, backwards racists because of this. O'Reilly piped up, and instead of agreeing with her, he defended the Australians, and said that it amounted to a 'stupid decision' on the part of the Producers of the show, and was nothing to do with the fact that Australians are apparently 'backwards' as his guest claimed.

I never thought i'd say this, but I agree with what Bill O'Reilly said. :explode:bill o'reilly also has a rational stance on us healthcare reform!

THAT's Racist!?!?!?!??!?! I didn't think it was particularly funny, but I didn't think it was racist. I mean, how is that racist of offensive? Can somebody here explain that to me?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

ForeverNight
10-09-2009, 05:17 PM
Alright, I got the blackface bit jmac, but I still don't get why the skit was racist.

Looking over article I see references to the early days of theater when white people regularly portrayed black and then when it became 'racist' to do so.

I still don't see racism in there at all, I see stupid decisions and a lack of humor, but I don't see racism....

Det. Bart Lasiter
10-09-2009, 05:29 PM
I'm not sure I get how you recognize that blackface is considered racist but don't recognize that people performing in blackface is considered racist.

jonathan7
10-09-2009, 05:50 PM
Let me be real honest, I think calling comedy sketches racist demeans those who are daily subjected to racism in many countries. Lets be honest, its a comedy act in extremely poor taste, but at the end of the day you can change channel or turn the TV off or complain to watch dogs. To me it seems like a whole load of fuss over nothing, where as we should be campaigning where people are really suffering from racist abuse which they can't turn off with the flip of a switch. I feel any person of intelligence watches that "skit" and just thinks they are idiots, but let that be an end to it. Furthermore, unfortunately, if we believe in freedom of speech than acts like that which was neither funny nor good still should be allowed. - That's my personal opinion.

Now as a moderator I'm saying this Freedom of Speech does not reign in Kavars, this thread is under a very tight leash I do not want to see you flaming one another, nor do I want to see any racism. The above video is a very poor parody of black people and harkens back to darken times. Be careful what you post here, and any racism and I will stamp very hard down on you -- j7

El Sitherino
10-09-2009, 07:18 PM
Isn't this really just a non-issue?

Why does everyone care so much about this? It should have been something discussed for one day around the watercooler along the lines of "Wow, that Jackson Five skit was incredibly moronic" 'I agree.' [/discussion]

Phantom Knight
10-09-2009, 09:52 PM
Alright, I got the blackface bit jmac, but I still don't get why the skit was racist.

Looking over article I see references to the early days of theater when white people regularly portrayed black and then when it became 'racist' to do so.

I still don't see racism in there at all, I see stupid decisions and a lack of humor, but I don't see racism....

Exactly. From what I intepreted from watching the skit, I didnt see it as racist. It was a mere intepretation of the Jackson Five, nothing more. I admit, the skit itself was very cheap and somewhat crummy, but they didnt intend on hurting anyone.

I suppose it depends on peoples definition; "What is Racism? How do you define it?"

I can understand that this skit is something to worry over, but really; its not that bigger deal when you think about it.

El Sitherino
10-10-2009, 04:25 AM
I admit, the skit itself was very cheap and somewhat crummy
The act of blackface is one that declared the idea that blacks were good for two things, manual labor and acting like bafoons for the entertainment of (white) people. It wasn't ever used in effect to move a story forward in a direct relation to the plot. The plot was often made in order to throw in the "comedic" element of blackface to lighten the mood by having a "goofy negro" either showboating only to fumble or to be the object of some sort of attack by the "hero", generally played as an obviously well educated and physically fit white guy.

It is in a sense racist in that they used the obvious bafoonery of blackface and exploitation of it to build their gag. It's very foundation is along the same lines as that of the original use on stage, granted it didn't have the alterior motive added in by an obviously racist stage manager who was using the act to further convince the mass audience that blacks are useless. However, the lack of that one simple step doesn't remove the underlying theme of racial insensetivity.

It's kind of like the old people who still call blacks colors and asians gooks/chinks/nips/slopes/etc. They probably aren't prejudice, but it's still generally mean. Same as why we don't call overweight or generally large kids fat, it's just not terribly considerate. I know because last time I called a kid fat I got a scolding, even though to be fair the kid was almost my weight and half my age.

Rabish Bini
10-10-2009, 10:13 PM
1. One of them actually was of a darker tone
2. One of them was painted white
3. They did the same skit 20 years ago

Call me biased 'cos I'm an Aussie, but that's not racist.

jonathan7
10-10-2009, 11:09 PM
1. One of them actually was of a darker tone
2. One of them was painted white
3. They did the same skit 20 years ago

Call me biased 'cos I'm an Aussie, but that's not racist.

While, I just think its stupid and not racist, I fail to see the relevance of the act being done 20 years ago and what that has to do with the discussion; it's a point several of you have made but I don't understand the relation of how long ago something was done and racism. It's a very curious argument, does this mean because Hitler performed the Holocaust 40 years ago, that it would be perfectly acceptable for me to persecute Jews today? And because its been done before it's not racist.

With regards media and with a less extreme example; 20 to 30 years ago the words "caffer", "niggar" and "golly-wog" would have been common on radio and television - does this somehow mean they aren't racist and derogatory words?

Indeed, the further back you go in terms of media and the more likely you are to come across racism. I would say the fact something was done 20 years ago would increase the statistical likelihood of it being racist. So I would say that in all respects it is good that the above words such as "caffer" are no longer acceptable on say South African radio and television.

As such I would have to argue against the inference that because a programme has a previous precedent it makes it acceptable.

Jae Onasi
10-10-2009, 11:55 PM
But the one thing that annoys me is America's hypocrisy. After watching that, what makes your country any different? The United States is without a doubt one of the most racist countries on the globe. That skit was nothing, compared to what you people have done in the past.

Please explain to me how racism in Australia is suddenly OK because the US has had a history of racists. Please provide the statistics showing that the US is one of the most racist countries (I contend that China, North Korea, the Sudan, and Saudi Arabia are substantially less tolerant of other races than the US, just as examples).

Please also explain to me why you've painted all Americans as racists, when there is a substantial number of us who do not fall into the category of 'racist'.

jonathan7
10-11-2009, 12:12 AM
But the one thing that annoys me is America's hypocrisy. After watching that, what makes your country any different? The United States is without a doubt one of the most racist countries on the globe. That skit was nothing, compared to what you people have done in the past.

This comment amuses me due to the irony; it actually strikes me as a racist comment. It amuses me further as it seems to be exactly the same hysterical and angry reaction your arguing against the more ignorant sections of American society who are accusing Australians of being racist.

Regardless Australia's treatment of the Aborigine's makes me highly amused that you're trying to take a moral high-ground with America over her past. And indeed, it would seems to me that in terms of Governmental policy Australia has been racist far more recently than America; the lost children immediately spring to mind. Regardless, I do not think either Australia's or America's past are indicative of the nations they are today, nor do I think either are racist. Indeed I would say in terms of Governmental policy both America and Australia lead are among the leading nations in promoting good race relations.

Phantom Knight
10-11-2009, 04:38 AM
This comment amuses me due to the irony; it actually strikes me as a racist comment. It amuses me further as it seems to be exactly the same hysterical and angry reaction your arguing against the more ignorant sections of American society who are accusing Australians of being racist.

I apoligise. I wasnt intending on being racist, but I understand if you may take offence. My definition of racism is based upon Stereotypes, and how people take advantage of them.


Please also explain to me why you've painted all Americans as racists, when there is a substantial number of us who do not fall into the category of 'racist'.


Jae, I never announced all Americans are racists. Thats why I said "Most", implying a percentage of you are quite the opposite.

I'm not implying all of America are racists. Most of you are good people. But your media displays evidence of racism taken to a level where people laugh at it. Take Trey Parker and Matt Stone for example; Isaac Hayes, who voiced Chef, resigned because he felt the show was too racist.

Regardless Australia's treatment of the Aborigine's makes me highly amused that you're trying to take a moral high-ground with America over her past. And indeed, it would seems to me that in terms of Governmental policy Australia has been racist far more recently than America; the lost children immediately spring to mind.


Nobody on this earth is perfect.

I hate what my country has done to the Aborginals in the past, and I'm sure you feel the same about your country. But one of the many things we share in common is that we both accepted black people into our society, settled our differences and moved on. Unforutnately, not all of us have come to accept such a change, and that what really grinds my gears.

But I am not looking at the relationship between America and Australia. I'm not defending my own country, because I admit the skit itself was a stupid mistake. Even though it may sound like it, I'm not asking "how is it that America can be racist, but we cant?".

I'm trying to say that you as a society, regardless of race or gender, should have compared your mistakes in the media with that skit before making your argument. That way, as a globe, we can atleast try to make an effort to learn from each others mistakes and not repeat history.

Astor
10-11-2009, 05:01 AM
Isaac Hayes, who voiced Chef, resigned because he felt the show was too racist.

Isaac Hayes was fine with the lampooning and ridiculing of nearly every race and religion on the planet until they made fun of Scientology. He even cited 'religous intolerance' as his reason for leaving the show. It was nothing to do with racism.

Phantom Knight
10-11-2009, 05:30 AM
Isaac Hayes was fine with the lampooning and ridiculing of nearly every race and religion on the planet until they made fun of Scientology. He even cited 'religous intolerance' as his reason for leaving the show. It was nothing to do with racism.

Oh really? I was told he left because he felt the show went to far with mocking his race. My bad, thanks for correcting me.

adamqd
10-11-2009, 08:01 AM
The Only thing's that pissed me off were... It was crap, Harry Connick jnr is the President of the White Guilt Club, and the Lead singer came out saying "But I'm Asian"... So being not Black, But not White makes it OK lol.

ForeverNight
10-11-2009, 12:59 PM
^^ That really annoys me too when people say "I'm not white, so I'm not racist". :dozey:

I've never figured out that statement. It's prolly the fact that it says "As long as you're not a majority, it's not racism."

Sadly enough, that attitude is rather prevalent where I live. :(

Samuel Dravis
10-11-2009, 02:14 PM
The examples I've seen of blackface being used recently did not immediately strike me as racist. I say this because the effect is (or at least strikes me as) so completely ridiculous that it serves as an indictment of any culture that could use it in any other way than as a method of sarcastic commentary on the racist productions of the past.

On the other hand, I can see Sithy's POV, so I think the technique should be used carefully or not at all.

Q
10-11-2009, 02:30 PM
This is probably a double standard, but it would have seemed far more racist had it been done in the US.

El Sitherino
10-11-2009, 07:28 PM
The examples I've seen of blackface being used recently did not immediately strike me as racist. I say this because the effect is (or at least strikes me as) so completely ridiculous that it serves as an indictment of any culture that could use it in any other way than as a method of sarcastic commentary on the racist productions of the past.

On the other hand, I can see Sithy's POV, so I think the technique should be used carefully or not at all.

Well with regard to Tropic Thunder there was the scene in the movie in which Lazarus talks with Alpa about the blackface thing and shows his ignorance of the offense given by dyeing his skin black. He acknowledges that it was merely the next step in attempts to "redefine" himself as an actor. It was more akin to Charlize Theron getting that makeup job and gaining weight to play the part in Monster, lampooning the lengths that "serious actors" go to in attempts to win an award. It's actually the major theme of the movie, and it's easily placed into context when viewed with the fake trailers at the beginning, namely the one of Robert Downey Jr. and Tobey Macguire as the gay priests. Clearly the idea is not to seriously convey a controversy through accident, but rather show the ridiculous lengths hollywood producers go to to be controversial or otherwise shockingly unorthodox.
Then there's smaller parts like Jack Black in Be Kind Rewind, where it's simply used to convey Jack Black's characters simple and naive ignorance where he explains his logic as "Clearly I'm the fattest guy here, so I should play Fats but I don't tan that well." In effect it's almost the opposite of the offense blackface traditionally takes on. Is it offensive, yes, but within the context of the movie we understand that he's an idiot and often idiots inadvertently offend.
Which really kind of puts this event in to place, people are stupid and prone to make mistakes, especially when attempting to just get any and all attention. Kind of like children, they'll get a papercut but act like it's the most horrific thing to happen to them and they'll go to great lengths to get attention for it, even if it means screaming really loud and peeing themselves.

Which is why I think the only discussion that should come from this is, is this another sign we need to start providing more knowledge to people as opposed to teaching ideas, ideals, and ideology.

This is probably a double standard, but it would have seemed far more racist had it been done in the US.

Only to black people in the US, most other people in the world are aware of the prejudice Australia has presented to dark skinned people, be they descendants of African slaves, Fijians, or Aboriginal tribes.

But again that falls on the ignorance of the society, and as we all know America has a habit of cutting out world affairs from public education which is the only education a large percentage of black Americans get.

cire992
10-11-2009, 07:30 PM
I'm trying to say that you as a society, regardless of race or gender, should have compared your mistakes in the media with that skit before making your argument. That way, as a globe, we can atleast try to make an effort to learn from each others mistakes and not repeat history.

Yeah, hang on, lemme' call Fox News and tell them to change their headlines. Rule #1 with the US, the major news networks are a joke, they have nothing to do with what's on the average American's mind.

ForeverNight
10-11-2009, 11:00 PM
Rule #1 with the US, the major news networks are a joke, they have nothing to do with what's on the average American's mind.

QFT!

I've never seen a Major News Network show ANYTHING that an average American would have on their mind. After getting tired of that I just gave up on TV. The shows suck (with a few exceptions) and the networks are horribly biased one way or another while holding themselves up as unbiased. (Fox, CNN, MSNBC, everybody)

God, just make the stupid stop![/rant]

Lynk Former
10-11-2009, 11:40 PM
Normally I never post in Kavar's... cause it's Kavar's and not video games... but...


Harry Connick Jr. was within his right to get offended by the skit and I'm surprised the had the skit on with him on the show... if he wasn't on the show then it wouldn't have mattered either way and none of the fuss that's been going on would've have existed.

Australia is no more or less racist than everyone else but I guess what separates Australia from the US in this matter is that we're just not as sensitive to these kinds of issues as the US is. That can be seen as a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you want to view it. In a lot of ways Australians are mischevious and no matter what background we may have come from, we tend to pick on everyone including ourselves. I think the kind of thinking a lot of people down here subscribe to is if you pick on everyone equally, it's okay. XD

I think the biggest insensitivity out of this came from having an American guest on the show and performing that act, it wasn't really about the black painted faces at all. I mean, there are certain things you do in your home that you and your family laugh about and are fine with, but when a guest comes around you're going to be mindful of them and not do certain things around them that they would be offended by.

I've lived in Australia for most of my life, I have dark skin, aside from some arseholes back in my school days who really didn't know any better, I've never actually encountered anyone I would call racist. The various groups of people I've socialised with who are all from different and very diverse backgrounds all like to joke around, and some of the jokes are racial, but do I see it as being racist? Yup, but it's the kind that people accept, even if they're on the receiving end... we all make fun of everyone about everything. I am a chocolate man, and my Asian friend back when I was doing my multimedia course is covered in sweet and sour sauce, and of course, let's not forget the fat white kid in our group who is a powdered doughnut. We all laughed about it and didn't care either way.

I dunno what kind of point I'm trying to make with this, no point I guess, just thought I'd add my 2 cents...


@ adamqd: Actually the lead guy for that group is Indian.

adamqd
10-12-2009, 10:29 AM
@ adamqd: Actually the lead guy for that group is Indian.

Sorry, In England the Term Asian is often used by white and Asian people to refer to someone who has origins in that Continent, this Includes Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Pakistani and so on... This slipped into my Post when I couldn't remember which Nationality he had said off hand... That is if you were genuinely clarifying his Nationality :) If you were just pointing out my racist lack of detail to invalidate my post then :) too.

Lynk Former
10-12-2009, 10:41 AM
@ adamqd: lol, no, I was just pointing out that he's specifically Indian since "Asian" can mean practically anything as you've pointed out. Though saying "Indian" isn't very specific either since he could be Indian Indian or Pakistani or Sri Lankan or whatever, I was just referring to the fact that he's from the Indian subcontinent.

*shrugs*

adamqd
10-12-2009, 10:52 AM
@ adamqd: lol, no, I was just pointing out that he's specifically Indian since "Asian" can mean practically anything as you've pointed out. Though saying "Indian" isn't very specific either since he could be Indian Indian or Pakistani or Sri Lankan or whatever, I was just referring to the fact that he's from the Indian subcontinent.

*shrugs*

I was only kidding on the last part anyway haha, but yea I was generalizing :)

jonathan7
10-12-2009, 12:48 PM
Nobody on this earth is perfect.

I hate what my country has done to the Aborginals in the past, and I'm sure you feel the same about your country. But one of the many things we share in common is that we both accepted black people into our society, settled our differences and moved on. Unforutnately, not all of us have come to accept such a change, and that what really grinds my gears.

But I am not looking at the relationship between America and Australia. I'm not defending my own country, because I admit the skit itself was a stupid mistake. Even though it may sound like it, I'm not asking "how is it that America can be racist, but we cant?".

Just for future reference I'm British, not sure why but people on LF always seem to think I'm American. To be honest I view British history dispassionately the UK has had some fine historical moments and some awful moments too.

But for example Bristol (a City in England) apologising for the Slave Trade was preposterous, that was over 300 years ago. And seems to forget Wilberforce abolished the evil trade, and Africans were enslaving each other long before the white man arrived. So why on earth should modern Britain apologise for events 300 years ago?

I don't think the current generation of Germans should have to apologise for World War II it was nothing to do with them. (The generations involved though can damn well apologise for it; those in Nazi Germany at the time allowed the Holocaust to happen regardless of what they may try telling themselves or others - the majority of the population played a role by their silence). Also on this point much like I can't take any credit for Britain's stand against Nazi Germany in 1939-45.

Lynk Former
10-12-2009, 12:56 PM
If it wasn't for the British, I wouldn't have been born in Fiji... I would've been born in India instead which would've been a nightmare.

Lynk Former
10-13-2009, 03:15 PM
pgf6sTXBiK0

Here's some more to get angry over, first painted black faces, now MIDGET RACES!!


(The winner of that race sure knows how to win with style XD)

Bimmerman
10-13-2009, 05:12 PM
Is it racist? Yes. Funny? So I hear.

Really though, who cares at this point? Racism isn't confined to a particular country, nor is hypocrisy. This skit was designed to be entertaining via comedic use of race i.e. blackface. Most comedians make racist, sexist, religious-ist (making up words here) jokes.

The day you can't make light of something is the day we all suffer.

Ten-96
10-14-2009, 06:27 AM
Odd. As a black male in America, I found that skit to be not-funny. I didn't see it as racist at all; just unfunny.

Devil's Advocate:

If all of the members had been black and making fun of The Patridge Family or the Brady Bunch, would people have been as quick to label it as "racist"? Or is it condoned that if you are black in America, you can make fun of white people without repercussion?

Totenkopf
10-14-2009, 08:50 AM
Devil's Advocate:
If all of the members had been black and making fun of The Patridge Family or the Brady Bunch, would people have been as quick to label it as "racist"? Or is it condoned that if you are black in America, you can make fun of white people without repercussion?

Sadly, the answer is yes for many people. I've always found the false distinction between bigotry and racism at the individual level to be self-serving. But what do you expect in a culture that's devolved into one of constant claims of victimization....

adamqd
10-14-2009, 09:56 AM
Or is it condoned that if you are black in America, you can make fun of white people without repercussion?

Unfortunately this is Very much the case, But, On the Level of Institutional commentary it's kinda OK. whereas hating or laughing at a stereotype, that's as racist as the KKK .

Web Rider
10-14-2009, 05:04 PM
If all of the members had been black and making fun of The Patridge Family or the Brady Bunch, would people have been as quick to label it as "racist"? Or is it condoned that if you are black in America, you can make fun of white people without repercussion?

As it's been noted, this is unfortunately the case. "WASPs" are one of the biggest targets for widely accepted bigotry and racism, both against themselves as a generalized group of people and against their religious beliefs. This is also partly because they often fail to laugh at the absurdity of some of it, and thus make the situation worse, however, it's often widely acceptable to be humourlessly racist or bigoted towards them as well.

Jae Onasi
10-14-2009, 11:25 PM
Devil's Advocate:

If all of the members had been black and making fun of The Patridge Family or the Brady Bunch, would people have been as quick to label it as "racist"? Or is it condoned that if you are black in America, you can make fun of white people without repercussion?
It's certainly more acceptable to make fun of whites than any other group, unless you go overboard like Obama's former pastor and get just plain offensive.

Q
10-14-2009, 11:31 PM
The flipside of that is that we don't care if we're made fun of. :)

It doesn't bother me in the least.[/whitey]


@Lynk: I always thought that you looked Indian, but I was too afraid to ask. Such is the state of affairs here in the US. Whitey can't ask questions like that without worrying whether or not he's going to inadvertently offend someone. :(

Ten-96
10-15-2009, 12:20 AM
It's certainly more acceptable to make fun of whites than any other group, unless you go overboard like Obama's former pastor and get just plain offensive.


Jae, you make an excellent point without even trying. People like Jeremiah Wright, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are quick to call someone racist without knowing all of the facts. Or, the use the race card to blame/explain away/justify the way they feel because of white people - it's ludicrous. I know that I'm off topic (again) but I am sick and tired of hearing how terrible white people are. How about we all look at each others as Americans; you know find some commonality instead of the divisiveness being spread by these so called "preachers". I was under the impression that preachers, pastors, etc... preached about God and his love for mankind. Maybe they went to an alternative school of theology?