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View Full Version : [Debate] Starkiller alive?


Arannor
12-15-2009, 11:40 PM
I know some have been throwing in their ideas in other threads about how Starkiller could have survived, but I thought we should have a thread to actually debate the matter.

So what do you think? Was he actually still alive some how? Did he use some sort of ancient Force Power(essence transfer), or perhaps a new found power? What if Vader lied about him being dead, used the force to conceal his life through the force, and salvaged him once again?

I think Vader could have been masking Starkiller's life from the emperor so that he could try his hand again at claiming the Mantle of Dark Lord. Vader's quotes from the new game trailer maybe some what of a hint.

I'd like to also share that on wookiepedia there has been a small discussion that Starkiller is in fact dead, and the place we see him in in the trailer is the Netherworld.

Maphisto86
12-16-2009, 09:23 AM
Yeah I don't think Starkiller is dead. I mean what would the point be in setting a Star Wars game outside of the Star Wars universe? It's probable that the Emperor himself may have tried to revive and reshape Galen himself. Palpatine is obviously disappointed with Vader and knows that he is considering betraying him in the near future. Until Luke Skywalker is revealed to him, Palpatine's best chance of a successor as his apprentice lies in Galen "Starkiller" Marek.

GeneralPloKoon
12-17-2009, 02:14 AM
With his power, I imagine he used the force to keep him alive.

Ztalker
12-17-2009, 05:12 PM
And a netherworld definitely doesn't look like an Arena.
Also, it would be a sucky game if you know you're dead with no way of return. Bit of anti-climactic.

I think its either Vader like you said yourself.
However, it wouldn't explain why he's fighting in an (not Imperial controlled) Arena. Every Jedi would be shot on sight under Palpatine's or Vader's command. And since it's obviously a continuation of the LS ending, Marek IS a Jedi.

I hope it's set at 12 aby or something. With 14-15 years passed since the last one. Marek would be early 30's and Luke would be searching every corner of the galaxy for Jedi students after the 'second' death of Palpatine. Maybe Marek can help Luke before Luke starts training Corran Horn and Kyle Katarn? Marek can die/disappear before that and re-emerge in the Vong War for a TFU3.
How else can they entwine this into the already crowded EU from 20bby-0bby?

Arannor
12-18-2009, 12:09 AM
And a netherworld definitely doesn't look like an Arena.
Also, it would be a sucky game if you know you're dead with no way of return. Bit of anti-climactic.
Good Point

I think its either Vader like you said yourself.
However, it wouldn't explain why he's fighting in an (not Imperial controlled) Arena. Every Jedi would be shot on sight under Palpatine's or Vader's command. And since it's obviously a continuation of the LS ending, Marek IS a Jedi.
It could be on a planet that the Empire would not bother going to. If you were Palpatine would you want a arena fighting Jedi dead, or would you leave him alone thinking that eventually his fate will come?

I hope it's set at 12 aby or something. With 14-15 years passed since the last one. Marek would be early 30's and Luke would be searching every corner of the galaxy for Jedi students after the 'second' death of Palpatine. Maybe Marek can help Luke before Luke starts training Corran Horn and Kyle Katarn? Marek can die/disappear before that and re-emerge in the Vong War for a TFU3.
How else can they entwine this into the already crowded EU from 20bby-0bby?
It was already stated at the announcement that TFU2 will still be between Episodes 3 and 4.

bliznez
12-30-2009, 11:04 PM
eeeer, i just thought- if we could have starkiller just quietly escape somewhere, from DS........
Would be AWESOME! :p like u know, the jedi Kota escaped to nar shadaa (And he was blind, lol)- and starkiller is Younger, AND we didnt notice any wounds on him- so why not?

DarthSlinky
12-31-2009, 09:51 AM
I am going with that its a clone, its got different injury's, no burn marks from being fried by palpatine. My dream would be he's a clone in say 30 aby or 40 aby or 130 aby. A legacy game would be fun.

Judging by his armor-suit its not imperial (it would have looked more gray-evil-communist) its not vader (would have looked more crude), its not the rebels (would have looked like 20 years old and have rebel inertia's all over it). So the big question is were is he?

mstr kenobi
12-31-2009, 11:32 AM
i think it would be reeeeeally stupid for him to suddenly wake up and escape after vader and palps left,i would prefer some mystical explanation,which i have no idea at this point what it would be like,but something...

very vague i know lol

TKA-001
12-31-2009, 11:37 AM
First off, the apprentice didn't survive the first game. He died. He died in the game, and he died in the novel. Palpatine killed him, causing him to die. After he died, he was dead as a direct result of being killed. The real question is how he is alive again.

I personally think that it should be a clone, because I think it's the most plausible in-universe explanation. I can't fathom a reason for Vader or Sidious bringing him back to life (even if they could), and they're the only people whom anyone would ever have any reason to believe could or would. However, I wouldn't put it past Sidious cloning him as some kind of experiment (since the clone wouldn't have any reason at first to disobey him) and having it go wrong somehow.

adamqd
12-31-2009, 02:41 PM
Sigged

Shem
12-31-2009, 08:03 PM
I am going with that its a cloneI seriously doubt the clone theory that some are throwing out. Guess we'll find out soon enough if I'm right or not.

Besides, his mind is too complicated to be someone new. You have to grow him and such. He also has a memory of Juno when she asked if she would ever see him again on the Death Star. Those should be red flags right there that this is not a clone.


no burn marks from being fried by palpatine.Starkiller had no marks when we see his dead body, so what makes you think there should be now?

Zwier Zak
01-01-2010, 09:58 AM
First off, the apprentice didn't survive the first game. He died. He died in the game, and he died in the novel. Palpatine killed him, causing him to die. After he died, he was dead as a direct result of being killed.


hehehe

LordOfTheFish
01-01-2010, 01:58 PM
First off, the apprentice didn't survive the first game. He died. He died in the game, and he died in the novel. Palpatine killed him, causing him to die. After he died, he was dead as a direct result of being killed. The real question is how he is alive again.

I personally think that it should be a clone, because I think it's the most plausible in-universe explanation. I can't fathom a reason for Vader or Sidious bringing him back to life (even if they could), and they're the only people whom anyone would ever have any reason to believe could or would. However, I wouldn't put it past Sidious cloning him as some kind of experiment (since the clone wouldn't have any reason at first to disobey him) and having it go wrong somehow.

http://www.lucasforums.com/picture.php?albumid=339&pictureid=5539

RebornWookiee
01-01-2010, 03:56 PM
I have been thinking about this ever since i saw the trailer how the heck are they going to do this? He died. I mean dont get me wrong TFU 2 heck yeah! But how??????????? I seriously am really looking forward to how they're going to play this out.

Shem
01-02-2010, 02:09 AM
I have been thinking about this ever since i saw the trailer how the heck are they going to do this? He died. I mean dont get me wrong TFU 2 heck yeah! But how??????????? I seriously am really looking forward to how they're going to play this out.It's simple. They retract the fact that he died. It now becomes an assumption made by both Vader and Sidious or something. The query is how it will play out, but we'll find out before the year is finished.

mstr kenobi
01-02-2010, 09:20 AM
I personally think that it should be a clone, because I think it's the most plausible in-universe explanation. I can't fathom a reason for Vader or Sidious bringing him back to life (even if they could), and they're the only people whom anyone would ever have any reason to believe could or would. However, I wouldn't put it past Sidious cloning him as some kind of experiment (since the clone wouldn't have any reason at first to disobey him) and having it go wrong somehow.

Will they do "a spiderman" though?

The clone isn't really a clone but instead he is the real thing,the one that passed on the deathstar was the clone...

Probably not(i hope so at least),given the bashing spiderman took for it.

TKA-001
01-02-2010, 10:21 AM
The clone isn't really a clone but instead he is the real thing,the one that passed on the deathstar was the clone...
How could that possibly make any sense?

mstr kenobi
01-02-2010, 01:49 PM
it doesn't

just like clone saga spiderman...

Zerimar Nyliram
01-02-2010, 03:13 PM
Star Wars has been cloned to death, and I've had quite enough of it already. And it didn't start with the prequels; the Expanded Universe has been doing the evil clone thing for years, from Dark Empire to the Thrawn trilogy.

The point being: Enough damn clones! It's been done to death!

RebornWookiee
01-02-2010, 04:51 PM
It's simple. They retract the fact that he died. It now becomes an assumption made by both Vader and Sidious or something. The query is how it will play out, but we'll find out before the year is finished.

Yeah i definitely agree with you on that. That's the only thing that's driving me crazy is how they're going to play it out but i guess well have to wait and see.

Shem
01-02-2010, 09:15 PM
The point being: Enough damn clones! It's been done to death!I'm in total agreement there and I strongly believe they're not even going to touch that as it will turn off many of the game's fans.

It's like I said, the thoughts in Starkiller's head in the trailer are way too complicated for him to be a new person, cloned in the image of Starkiller. Then the fact that he remembers Juno and her query about seeing each other again should have been enough of a hint for others out there to stay away from it. That was one of the last things Juno says to him.

The thing people should be wondering IMO is how Yoda could possibly play a role in this. It's hard to believe that they just threw in Yoda's voice talking to Starkiller just for spite. Then think about how Yoda's teachings and Vader's statements are conflicting Starkiller's mind. Well, maybe not in this thread since this is about Starkiller being alive, but still...

RebornWookiee
01-03-2010, 02:42 AM
I'm in total agreement there and I strongly believe they're not even going to touch that as it will turn off many of the game's fans.

It's like I said, the thoughts in Starkiller's head in the trailer are way too complicated for him to be a new person, cloned in the image of Starkiller. Then the fact that he remembers Juno and her query about seeing each other again should have been enough of a hint for others out there to stay away from it. That was one of the last things Juno says to him.

The thing people should be wondering IMO is how Yoda could possibly play a role in this. It's hard to believe that they just threw in Yoda's voice talking to Starkiller just for spite. Then think about how Yoda's teachings and Vader's statements are conflicting Starkiller's mind. Well, maybe not in this thread since this is about Starkiller being alive, but still...

Dude you are on it i am 100 percent with you on that. You should start a new thread and talk about this but then again i guess thats what i was trying to do with mine to when i put interpreting the trailer and storyline. EVERYBODY OVER TO MY THREAD NOW! lol. Shem im gonna talk to you more you know what you're talking about

TKA-001
01-03-2010, 10:14 AM
The point being: Enough damn clones! It's been done to death!
It's still better than him coming back to life.

It's like I said, the thoughts in Starkiller's head in the trailer are way too complicated for him to be a new person, cloned in the image of Starkiller. Then the fact that he remembers Juno and her query about seeing each other again should have been enough of a hint for others out there to stay away from it.
Nonsense; the clone option is just as plausible. All they'd have to do is throw in some mention about "residual genetic memories" (which have been demonstrated before in Star Wars), and that'd be that.

Still, I wouldn't be surprised if they went with the resurrection option. After all, LucasArts specializes in bogus ideas; a few concepts that were proposed for TFU 1 included the player being sent by Vader to look for Darth Plagueis in order to help him bring Padme back to life, having the player be instructed by Qui-Gon Jinn's ghost, and the secret apprentice being none other than Plagueis himself. Compared to those things, the apprentice just coming back to life is grounded very firmly in terms of plausibility.

Zerimar Nyliram
01-03-2010, 11:17 AM
It's still better than him coming back to life.

No, it isn't. Seriously.

LordOfTheFish
01-03-2010, 12:19 PM
No, it isn't. Seriously.

Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't mind seeing Starkiller alive, honestly. I thought his character/personality was quite intriguing.

RebornWookiee
01-03-2010, 01:46 PM
Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't mind seeing Starkiller alive, honestly. I thought his character/personality was quite intriguing.

I second that. The clone idea is stupid, no offense, and i definitely agree that i wouldn't mind seeing starkiller back it wouldnt be the same without him he was a very intriguing and interesting character.

Marius Fett
01-03-2010, 01:59 PM
I've been thinking it could be something to do with the Jedi Masters he killed in t he game. Maybe as he lays dying on the floor after Palpatine fried him they spoke to him in a vision and told him how to come back or something like that?

Yeah that probably sounds a bit daft, but anything's better than clones. >_<

setlec
01-03-2010, 02:02 PM
i think that maybe Proxy having access to the imperial computing network has "hacked" into the IMP network and used a medical drone as the one that Vader used to rescue Malek just before resurrecting him. So i a way this is very plausible that Malek was rescued by his robot after Vader and Palpatine disposed his corpse as a garbage. That would make sense.

TKA-001
01-03-2010, 02:06 PM
No, it isn't. Seriously.
If they wanted him alive for a sequel, then they shouldn't have killed him in the first place.

I second that. The clone idea is stupid, no offense, and i definitely agree that i wouldn't mind seeing starkiller back it wouldnt be the same without him he was a very intriguing and interesting character.
I agree that cloning him is stupid, but I maintain that it is the least stupid (because it doesn't make the first game's ending a total copout) and most plausible (because every element of it has been done before in the canon) option.

Shem
01-03-2010, 02:23 PM
Nonsense; the clone option is just as plausible. All they'd have to do is throw in some mention about "residual genetic memories" (which have been demonstrated before in Star Wars), and that'd be that.You just complicated the story. You now have to explain how it came about. I mean you are seriously going with the idea that cloning Starkiller was planned because they knew what would happen with him, even though the Emperor looked at him as Vader's future replacement.

Then you have to grow him and train him pretty early on. I mean finding another person to do that would be easier than cloning someone to try to be like someone. To program memories.

You're also talking that Palpatine didn't have plans to use him as his future apprentice which was revealed he did.

Then not only did you start this clone off early when Starkiller was a young kid, you grow him, train him, program him with memories; you then send him off to wonder the galaxy wondering what he should be doing with this complicated thoughts. What is the point of that?

Oh, and if you're still going with the programmed memories, how did they get Juno's quotes since they weren't there for that? Especially one we heard her say to Starkiller right before he leaped into the Death Star. Are you still seriously suggesting that? Because if you are, you're going to really have to complicate the story more.

but I maintain that it is the least stupid (because it doesn't make the first game's ending a total copout) and most plausibleStill think it's the most plausible now?

Arannor
01-03-2010, 03:04 PM
I just thought of another theory, what if Proxy was repaired before Marek went to the Death Star and Proxy went in place of Marek? After all Proxy was trained to use lightsabers, all though he could not use force powers. But in the end it could have been Proxy that was portrayed as Marek dying!

RebornWookiee
01-03-2010, 03:08 PM
You just complicated the story. You now have to explain how it came about. I mean you are seriously going with the idea that cloning Starkiller was planned because they knew what would happen with him, even though the Emperor looked at him as Vader's future replacement.

Then you have to grow him and train him pretty early on. I mean finding another person to do that would be easier than cloning someone to try to be like someone. To program memories.

You're also talking that Palpatine didn't have plans to use him as his future apprentice which was revealed he did.

Then not only did you start this clone off early when Starkiller was a young kid, you grow him, train him, program him with memories; you then send him off to wonder the galaxy wondering what he should be doing with this complicated thoughts. What is the point of that?

Oh, and if you're still going with the programmed memories, how did they get Juno's quotes since they weren't there for that? Especially one we heard her say to Starkiller right before he leaped into the Death Star. Are you still seriously suggesting that? Because if you are, you're going to really have to complicate the story more.

Still think it's the most plausible now?

BURN!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHA ok im sorry guys i just had to say it. Im starting a new thread so we can talk about how yoda will be in the game that will be more interesting to talk about.

Shem
01-03-2010, 03:44 PM
I just thought of another theory, what if Proxy was repaired before Marek went to the Death Star and Proxy went in place of Marek? After all Proxy was trained to use lightsabers, all though he could not use force powers. But in the end it could have been Proxy that was portrayed as Marek dying!Then that was a very quick repair. Besides you're actually going to go with that Proxy kissed Juno instead of Starkiller? What would be the point of that because Juno would obviously be in on it.

Zerimar Nyliram
01-03-2010, 06:13 PM
And that it was PROXY's spirit that floated up into space postmortem in the novel? ;)

Arannor
01-03-2010, 11:18 PM
:argh: I'm not thinking, lol!

SITHWARRIOR101
01-04-2010, 11:07 AM
How could that possibly make any sense?

It actually makes alot of sense, starkiller posssibly knew he was going to be killed so he went to kamino to make a clone of himself, the clone died on the death star, problem solved so starkiller could go into hiding or whatever.:thmbup1:

Zerimar Nyliram
01-04-2010, 01:22 PM
God, please stop the clone talk. This isn't Power Rangers.

Alexrd
01-04-2010, 02:53 PM
It actually makes alot of sense, starkiller posssibly knew he was going to be killed so he went to kamino to make a clone of himself, the clone died on the death star, problem solved so starkiller could go into hiding or whatever.:thmbup1:

:migraine:

I really hope you're joking...

mstr kenobi
01-04-2010, 03:39 PM
God, please stop the clone talk. This isn't Power Rangers.

And you have never heard of clones in star wars :rolleyes:

Harkonnen07
01-04-2010, 03:48 PM
Wasn't he brought back to life once already though, Darth brought him back after his "betrayal."

Why is it so hard to assume it happens again?

Zerimar Nyliram
01-04-2010, 06:40 PM
And you have never heard of clones in star wars :rolleyes:

. . . Did you listen to anything I've been saying? Oh my God, what the crap is wrong with you! :rolleyes:







[Edit] In fact, here. In case you're too lazy to scroll up:

Star Wars has been cloned to death, and I've had quite enough of it already. And it didn't start with the prequels; the Expanded Universe has been doing the evil clone thing for years, from Dark Empire to the Thrawn trilogy.

The point being: Enough damn clones! It's been done to death!

Learn to pay attention and not be such a noob.

TKA-001
01-04-2010, 09:15 PM
You just complicated the story. You now have to explain how it came about. I mean you are seriously going with the idea that cloning Starkiller was planned because they knew what would happen with him, even though the Emperor looked at him as Vader's future replacement.
It's not my responsibility to come up with the why for him being cloned by someone (presumably he would be cloned after his death, but that's neither here nor there). I'm merely pointing out that it is possible and more probable than him being resurrected (something which is relatively rare in-universe, compared to cloning).

Then you have to grow him and train him pretty early on.
They have accelerated clone growth in-universe. As for training, that's tied to the "why" question.

To program memories.
An ARC Trooper (called "Spar", featured in two Karen Traviss novels and a few other EU sources) in the clone army got Jango Fett's memories by accident. It wouldn't be a stretch for a clone of Vader's apprentice to get memories somehow as well (it doesn't have to be deliberate; I'm just pointing out that it's not implausible).

You're also talking that Palpatine didn't have plans to use him as his future apprentice which was revealed he did.
Where did I say that? Again, this is related to the why question, and I never intended to address the why, and as I stated above, in all likelihood if he was going to be cloned, it would be after his death.

Then not only did you start this clone off early when Starkiller was a young kid, you grow him, train him, program him with memories; you then send him off to wonder the galaxy wondering what he should be doing with this complicated thoughts. What is the point of that?
There are too many presumptions in this line of thought. You are presuming that Starkiller being cloned means that Palpatine has to be the one who did it (though he is the most likely person), that residual memories from the original Starkiller had to have been programmed (when even elsewhere in the canon it has been demonstrated that they don't need to be programmed in order to occur), and that he would be sent by the Emperor for no apparent reason on a mission with no objectives or purpose. I'm not trying to explain anything close to the whole story; I'm only highlighting what I consider to be the most plausible explanation for Starkiller being back.

Oh, and if you're still going with the programmed memories, how did they get Juno's quotes since they weren't there for that?
Because, as the condition you refer to in this sentence (the underlined portion) dictates, he somehow possesses the original's memories.

Lord Foley
01-04-2010, 09:45 PM
I'm banking on him not being a clone simply because it'd be an awfully awkward plot for him to be cloned and then given his previous memories. It's the same effect as bringing him back to life but feels even more contrived. (Don't get me wrong, bringing him back to life is obviously a contrived way of making a sequel.) And Karen Travis's contributions to canon are among the poorest, so I really don't want to use her as a standard for what sort of thing should go on (whether or not it can.)

Shem
01-04-2010, 10:00 PM
It actually makes alot of sense, starkiller posssibly knew he was going to be killed so he went to kamino to make a clone of himself, the clone died on the death star, problem solved so starkiller could go into hiding or whatever.:thmbup1:It takes time to grow clones you know. He would then have to train him and that would take years. Please think things through before you present them.



And you have never heard of clones in star wars :rolleyes:Of course people have heard of them. It's when they're all of a sudden thrust when people don't think things through is what the problem is.



It's not my responsibility to come up with the why for him being cloned by someone (presumably he would be cloned after his death, but that's neither here nor there).After his death? Okay, TFU II is still before ANH. Are you really seriously suggesting that as a possibility?


I'm merely pointing out that it is possible and more probable than him being resurrected (something which is relatively rare in-universe, compared to cloning).Did it ever occur to you that Starkiller never really died and that he was presumed dead? That's not resurrection.



They have accelerated clone growth in-universe. As for training, that's tied to the "why" question.That is not it. I'm point out the flaws in the idea of cloning Starkiller.


An ARC Trooper (called "Spar", featured in two Karen Traviss novels and a few other EU sources) in the clone army got Jango Fett's memories by accident. It wouldn't be a stretch for a clone of Vader's apprentice to get memories somehow as well (it doesn't have to be deliberate; I'm just pointing out that it's not implausible).I see the Multiplicity movie factor being played, but if that is the case, the memories would be at the moment of cloning. Not after.


Where did I say that? Again, this is related to the why question, and I never intended to address the why, and as I stated above, in all likelihood if he was going to be cloned, it would be after his death.So you're saying that within a 1 to 2 year time period, he was able to grow up, then trained to be as powerful as he was before, which did take well over a decade before. Are you really going to go with that?

I have already contradicted every aspect of your clone theory. If I can do that, don't you think that means it won't happen that way? Think about it!

TKA-001
01-05-2010, 10:55 AM
After his death? Okay, TFU II is still before ANH. Are you really seriously suggesting that as a possibility?
Not exactly a possibility. My gut says that they're going to bring him back to life, so I'd say it's more of an option that I wouldn't put past LucasArts.

Did it ever occur to you that Starkiller never really died and that he was presumed dead? That's not resurrection.
Of course it occurred to me. I looked over it and decided that that idea is absolutely bogus, because even if you believe that he survived that explosion at the end based on the fact that he has no visible wounds in the game (and assume that Vader and Palpatine are ****ing morons), we still have the novel (which is just as canon as the game) spelling out in no uncertain terms that the apprentice, regardless of what happens to him later, died. Even if the game leaves it ambiguous, the novel fills in the gap.

I see the Multiplicity movie factor being played, but if that is the case, the memories would be at the moment of cloning. Not after.
Even if that was an established in-universe law of cloning, LA could use any number of methods to ignore or neutralize such a rule.

So you're saying that within a 1 to 2 year time period, he was able to grow up, then trained to be as powerful as he was before, which did take well over a decade before. Are you really going to go with that?
I don't see any reason to believe that he would be as powerful or skilled as his original self was. As for the growth speed, that wouldn't be a problem for LA to explain, what with crazily-fast cloning cylinders from the Thrawn trilogy, and the like. There's also Sith magic/alchemy, which they could use as a handwaving device for how he grows so fast without going bat**** insane, while retaining his Force sensitivity, and so on (Sith magic can do pretty much anything the writers want it to; it's a very versatile plot device).

I have already contradicted every aspect of your clone theory. If I can do that, don't you think that means it won't happen that way? Think about it!
I don't see how your ability to say that my theory is wrong changes any of it. Besides, there is no doubt in my mind that LA will go with the resurrection option, because it's simpler than the cloning one and I don't think that LA (even at its worst) would expect anyone to believe that Vader and Palpatine just didn't notice that he was still alive. I still maintain that while every explanation for his return is less than desirabe, the cloning explanation is the least implausible, and that's why I'd prefer it. Of course, I don't expect it to happen the way I think it should at all (for starters, I don't think the apprentice should be brought back in the first place). What I'm arguing is that if LA wanted to, the cloning option would work at least as well as any other explanation: hardly great, but could be worse.

SITHWARRIOR101
01-05-2010, 11:58 AM
The clone thing is a bad idea but what other options are there? Unless he is so powerful he brought himself back to life but that seems unlikely does it not? We're just gonna have to wait for it to come out and have a rational explanation

mstr kenobi
01-05-2010, 12:11 PM
The clone thing is a bad idea but what other options are there? Unless he is so powerful he brought himself back to life but that seems unlikely does it not? We're just gonna have to wait for it to come out and have a rational explanation

I agree,it's the lesser of 2 evils.

I surely like it better than the "Omg!!! he's still alive" thing

adamqd
01-05-2010, 12:18 PM
He came back to Life because TFU was the biggest selling SW game ever, Money>> Plausible Stories
But I'm sure he survived by not dieing in the first place, Star Wars is all about Relaunching/retcon/re-imagining atm

RebornWookiee
01-05-2010, 04:46 PM
Wasn't he brought back to life once already though, Darth brought him back after his "betrayal."

Why is it so hard to assume it happens again?

Exactly. Great point.

Vandros Artenon
01-07-2010, 02:54 PM
Because Rahm Kota felt him become one with the force?

Bah; ultimately, it doesn't matter anyway. He "lives" because Lucas Arts was lazy and felt more like making a game with shiny graphics and implausibly large super rancor monsters that'd draw in cheap money than put in effort and make a game with a logical plot.

Rinku
01-07-2010, 04:54 PM
Bah; ultimately, it doesn't matter anyway. He "lives" because Lucas Arts was lazy and felt more like making a game with [2] shiny graphics and implausibly large super rancor monsters that'd draw in cheap money [1] than put in effort and make a game with a logical plot.

I am skeptical about what they are going to do about Starkiller's "supposed" death ("Palpatine and Vader were able to shield themselves with the Force and believed Marek was dead." wookieepedia) but:

[1] We have no clue how the game is going to be (plot wise), why don't we just

wait for it to come out and have a rational explanation

before flaming about there being no effort put into it.

...and...

[2] Shiny Graphics? I assume that you mean good graphics (life-like, good nice landscape, etc)...So do you want good graphics in a game?? Or is my understanding correct, that you would rather have crappy graphics?

Sepp Omek
01-07-2010, 07:47 PM
We don't know much at this point.Was it stated that this game was to take place after the events in TFU? If not it's possible it could take place during the first one.

Maybe the trailer is showing an event that took place during Starkiller's life that ended up setting the stage for whatever occurs in the second game.

He may not even be the main character.Maybe what happens next introduces us to a new character and they were only showing the part with starkiller to gain our interest.

Your guess is as good as mine.

Shem
01-07-2010, 10:59 PM
We don't know much at this point.Was it stated that this game was to take place after the events in TFU? If not it's possible it could take place during the first one.This is when paying attention comes into play. Watch the trailer and listen to every piece of dialogue you hear. That can give you clues.

For example you overlooked Juno's voice. She asked, "Will I ever see you again?" Guess when that was spoken? On the Death Star; right before he went to go confront the Sith to save the Rebellion.

So if you analyze that, you know that means Starkiller is remembering as a past event which means this is after his "death", which means it's after the events of the first game.

Also, Starkiller looks older in the trailer. That should have been another hint to anybody, not just you. ;)

Sepp Omek
01-08-2010, 03:34 AM
Yeah i probably should have paid more attention.I just saw the trailer once and didn't look into it too much until today.I was playing the first one and got to thinking "Oh yeah there's a second one coming out.....but he's dead >.> "

Well I'm sure there's an interesting explanation behind it......whether is ends up being complete bs or not.

RebornWookiee
01-08-2010, 10:02 AM
Yeah i probably should have paid more attention.I just saw the trailer once and didn't look into it too much until today.I was playing the first one and got to thinking "Oh yeah there's a second one coming out.....but he's dead >.> "

Well I'm sure there's an interesting explanation behind it......whether is ends up being complete bs or not.

Yeah same here. I think the trailer is pretty interesting it gives a lot of clues like shem said. I dont think it end up being bs.

Bomberman65
01-08-2010, 06:11 PM
I for one am really interested in see how they explain how Starkiller is still alive. I mean Vader did bring him back to life before maybe he could do the same again. I mean when I was playing TFU and *Spoilers* Vader Betrayed Starkiller and threw him out the window I thought he was really dead. *Spoilers end* So they could do the same thing again which would explain why we hear Vader in TFU2 teaser. But it'll be very interesting to see what happens. But I will say that this has increased my hype for anything Star Wars. This and The Old Republic But thats another topic.

Ghost
01-17-2010, 08:45 PM
I don't know why you guys are so stuck on cloning and resurrection. Starkiller either died on the Death Star, or Proxy did. I know Marek is not one for fear. Here are two possibilities:

1. The Netherworld is a huge place, much larger than people can think. Its the heaven of Star Wars people, come on. So, if Marek really did die, then that would be the netherworld. Because, I bet that developers want to give people a look on what the Netherworld is. Pretty much, it is what you want it to be, like the Nexus in Star Trek Generations. Watch it sometime.
Picard "died" and got in the Nexus. In that movie, it was referenced you could go anywhere at anytime. Picard went with Kirk out of the Nexus. So basically, Picard called himself out of the Nexus, nobody called him back. So, it seems that the Netherworld is the Nexus of Star Wars. So, I think that trailer had a few references to that movie. Visually.

2. After Proxy was destroyed, Galen trained himself with Yoda. Yoda speaking to him gives it away. Also, that cave on Dagobah has some power, so If this was the case, then that cave changed surroundings to an arena, like in the trailer.

So yeah, thats my 2 cents :carms: Again, I highly doubt this game will use cloning. The whole concept has been done to death.

JediSithLordAdas
01-18-2010, 03:06 AM
Some Great Discussion & Debate here, yet he could've sensed through the force that the Emperor wanted him Dead by turning up at the death star an used Proxy or a Clone, but in order to find out about Kamino, he would've had to find out from Kota, which was never mentioned in the book or the game, the book series shows later on, that Palps stops using Kamino Clones an starts using another Facility, linking to the Separatists before that war was over an Order 66 came in.
The Force itself has been used to cover to make it look as if someone is dead, it happened when Luke Skywalker did it, an Ben Skywalkers connection to the Force was Restored in the Legacy Series, so that is still open for a plausability, knowing at what lengths Darth Vader wanted to Tear Down the Emperors Empire, an He Achieved that by being the Source of Creating the Rebellion, remember what Palps said to Darth in regards to that.
So still Apart from it being between Episodes 3 & 4, could this be showing The Ultimate Light Side Edition of The Force Unleashed, seeing it showed a Light Side Ending in the Book, plus also showed of it in the Game, as well as its alternate as Dark Side, That Darth could now be using Galen Marek, seeing what Darth saw Marek Achieve in front of His Eyes as a Light Sider, an being sent to other parts of the Galaxy to Help Bring Down Palps Empire, an according to the Dark Lord Rise of Vader book, showing it was Anakins/vaders Point of View after his fight with Kenobi, he seemed to have known something was up when Palps started speakin of the dark side an his practices, even though he did what he did with the Jedi Purge, it set the Future of the Jedi to Adapt to Changes it needed to do to Survive into the next Eras, just as the Sith again Adapted itself later on in the Legacy Series bringing itself to see how important it needed its own form of Jedi Council but a Sith Council, but every still wanting to be top head honcho.

Ghost
01-18-2010, 01:06 PM
could you unbold that? I can barely read it. Plus, that does not really make sense

Harkonnen07
01-18-2010, 03:20 PM
The Bold, it destroys my eyes.

Ghost
01-18-2010, 03:59 PM
back on topic. The whole idea of cloning Starkiller is absurd. If it was a clone, I will never play TFU 2, unless it gets good reviews :p

JediSithLordAdas
01-19-2010, 04:07 AM
I agree the cloning is getting out of hand, lets just hope they don't clone Galen Marek. He is too good a character to be cloned

Dark Phoenix
01-21-2010, 08:32 PM
force users can mask their force powers to stay hidden from other force wielders...and well im not sure if they can mask the force energy of others...if so...then maybe vader did that to starkiller...and maybe when starkiller 'died' he was just in a coma...so vader masked starkiller's power (if that's possible) and took him somewhere to heal just like in TFU1 when vader stabbed him and threw him into space then kept him on that medical ship. that's just my opinion...we wont know until the game comes out which i am 2 immpatient to wait for

Zerimar Nyliram
01-23-2010, 12:01 PM
I really hope he's not connected to Vader anymore. You can only have him be betrayed by him and then brought back later only to be revealed that it was a ruse so many times before it gets lame. I hope Galen is completely free of the Sith now, fighting against the Empire either on the side of the Rebels or as a loner.

Korr800
07-16-2010, 11:39 AM
I don't see why this long, boring, tedious cap is going on. I want to settle this once and for all. Go to Wookieepedia.com, the Star Wars Wiki. Search for TFU II. It specifically states that Vader took his dead body to Kamino, cloned him, and the clone gets "residual genetic memories" from his original self. He hijacks Vader's TIE fighter, and escapes to Cato Neimoidia, where Kota is executed in a gladitorial match like the Colusieum fight at the end of Episode II. That is why the "arena" in the trailer is shown, it is not The Netherworld!!!

There is no resurrection, there is no concealment of his death, nor is there playing as him in the Netherworld, or anything else! There is only the clone.

Thank you for reading the CORRECT story. Korr800 out.

AlexDM
07-16-2010, 11:09 PM
Korr800 is also a baka o.o

"Wookieepedia" is like anything else on the internet half the time you try to look for info, false or barely having detail, in certain cases they give a good amount but UNTIL the info on that place is made by the people who made the game, i won't read it.

robgomm
07-17-2010, 11:13 AM
Yeah Wookieepedia and Wikipedia are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Titan's pk
07-17-2010, 02:25 PM
it goes like this...
Darth Vader i think again hides star killer from emperor and creates a clone who gets memories of Juno and kota and tries to find them again. but what the clone doesn't know is Darth Vader betrayed the real star killer so he has Darth Vader telling him what to do and kota telling him that Darth Vader will betray him as he doesn't know who to believe

as far as i know that is the story.

but it is certainly a clone

Slaterx
07-17-2010, 05:48 PM
Or they used there massive force powers to bring him back to life without cloning him

gta967
07-17-2010, 07:34 PM
The only times where a power like this was used. in the Legacy comics where Cade Skywalker uses "Force Resuscitation" to revive his friends and loved ones. and that's over a hundred years after the events of this game(i believe)

Slaterx
07-18-2010, 10:15 PM
Because Rahm Kota felt him become one with the force?

Bah; ultimately, it doesn't matter anyway. He "lives" because Lucas Arts was lazy and felt more like making a game with shiny graphics and implausibly large super rancor monsters that'd draw in cheap money than put in effort and make a game with a logical plot.

Maybe not. Vader was the first one to get to his body, and hes far more powerful then Kota. What if Vader felt a spark of life in him and repressed it? Kota would have felt him disapear in the force and Palpatine might not have noticed it because honestly how much power would Vader have had to use to repress his spark? Not much after that explosion. Vader could have said he was dead to force the emperor not to brouch the subject. Also Palpatine lefty the body with Vader, he could have taken it and brought him to Kamino. Finally implausibly large Super Rancors?? Dude NJO had a ****ing living Planet! How is it not possible that the empire didnt create the damn thing???:eek:

PoiuyWired
07-19-2010, 02:42 PM
Well... technically Vader-Galen is a sort of master-apprentice relationship... so he should feel better when it comes to galen's spark.

truJedi
07-19-2010, 05:57 PM
Hes Is the real Galen and he was cloned, but thats just my opinion. Only time will guys,
i wonder if they will clear up what happened to him in the final battle. i want to know
how he was able to survive. :) p.s cheeese !!!

gta967
07-19-2010, 09:26 PM
i like to think so too, and as for vader telling him hes a clone of a dead original one thing to say, vader is not the most trustworthy guy around as seen here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyv1jcYOGFs

BattleSage
07-22-2010, 05:10 AM
Starkiller isn't a clone, from what I can gather. He is mentioned on the newer holorecords on the site. You are called subject 1138 on the holocom on the level Empirical on the 1st game, and this same name is mentioned as 'returning' to Kaimino while the klaxons wail and starships scream overhead. I believe that the Galen you play as has been manipulated into thinking he's a clone, while Vader keeps him alive to attempt to successfully clone him. 1157, the one in the tank, is the successful clone.

Or.... the Starkiller you played as for the majority of the first game, after Vader betrays you, was another clone. That'd be weird.

BattleSage
07-22-2010, 05:22 AM
With regards to Shem's anti clone points.
If learning is based on knowledge and practice, and a clone has the memories of Starkiller, it's entirely plausible that he could raplidly develop his Force potential and moves to become just as strong as Galen was when he was cloned. As for memories beyond the cloning point, we have Force Connections etc.

The only thing I have trouble with is so far, rapid cloning requires Force-canceling Ysalamiri, which create Force "blind" clones, who can't feel the Force at all.

If alchemy, I don't see any Sith at the time of the films being capable of alchemy, save perhaps Palpatine, who wouldn't have any motive for doing so, that could involve Vader. It was Palpatine's attempts to use Galen to kill Vader that opened Vader's eyes to the traitorous nature of Palpatine. It was at this point that he began training his own apprentices to defeat his Master, so he wouldn't plan to clone Marek, a potential replacement, for Palpatine.

AlexDM
07-23-2010, 09:18 PM
@Sage - Vadar knew about Palpatines "traitorous nature" before this game in the books, its just he is once more shown.


Subject 1138 -- Galen Marek.

- He could've been cut off from the force when he used such a huge force repulse against palpatine or He was in a near-death state, Hell there are people in the real world who "Die" but then can be brought back. Don't forget there was also a Jedi trance that made the heart beat so faintly that they appeared dead (I don't presume he has this however seeing as how it was an ancient trance used by few).

-Do to his near death experience he also has a coma or vadar worked on suppressing his memory with the technology at Kamino. While at Kamino vadar does clone him as seen in the trailer. Galen finally heals and right now currently a blank slate, due to his coma and the new memories possibly imprinted, does not question he is a clone. When he does have the visions he begins to have doubt and that is when vadar tries to keep him under control by telling him he is a clone. The clone begins to believe his master for a moment until his memories begin to resurface more and more. The final stepping stone to realizing that Vadar is not telling him the whole truth is in the Trailer "Vadar has betrayed me for the last time" this is when he begins to believe he is the true galen but with no proof to go on he goes off to find himself <Follows with the Storyline as to Find out if he is a clone or not> so he goes for Kota in hopes to also perhaps find Juno at the same time.

It would seem it would be going ^ that way to me...but they might do something slightly diffrent...

deesnyder
07-24-2010, 04:58 AM
Man... If you guys have seen the betrayal cinematic.... Vader tells him... "You have served your purpose well" which implies he did work for vader, "But i have no further use for you" strengthens my point even more... Isn't that more than enough... He is not a clone...

TKA-001
07-24-2010, 09:44 AM
He's a clone. He was grown... in a vat...

I wonder if we can make that line into an internet meme.

PoiuyWired
07-25-2010, 10:14 AM
Or.... the Starkiller you played as for the majority of the first game, after Vader betrays you, was another clone. That'd be weird.


DAMN THIS WOULD BE GREAT!!!

So the ending levels are actually Galeen Marrek instead?
That would make sense for how Kota reacts to him "seeing" starkiller again though (esp the TFU2 trailer ones).

Darca Lar
07-25-2010, 04:09 PM
He could be the first successful clone, but failed in the fact that he still contains the memories Vader may not want. Vader's just as manipulating as his master, the trailer doesn't offer much other than the clones we know to be clones.

Slaterx
07-25-2010, 05:09 PM
Juno mourned Starkiller as dead...but now he is back, purged of all memories and programmed to kill. And as fate brings Juno and Starkiller closer to reuniting, with Darth Vader determined not to lose his assassin a second time, they will both have to make a stand. The prize is freedom. The punishment for failing will be eternal enslavement to the dark side of the Force...

This is an entry from the Amazon product page for the book. Alot say the books are just as canon and i agree. this shows that starkiller is most likely alive just purged of memory similar to Revan

tigers
07-26-2010, 09:46 PM
I know some have been throwing in their ideas in other threads about how Starkiller could have survived, but I thought we should have a thread to actually debate the matter.

So what do you think? Was he actually still alive some how? Did he use some sort of ancient Force Power(essence transfer), or perhaps a new found power? What if Vader lied about him being dead, used the force to conceal his life through the force, and salvaged him once again?

I think Vader could have been masking Starkiller's life from the emperor so that he could try his hand again at claiming the Mantle of Dark Lord. Vader's quotes from the new game trailer maybe some what of a hint.

I'd like to also share that on wookiepedia there has been a small discussion that Starkiller is in fact dead, and the place we see him in in the trailer is the Netherworld. well of course its not tht starkiller is dead but when darth vader try to make a clone army of him one of the clones started getting his memorys back thus starkiller is reborn

Smith_Stalker
11-12-2010, 03:26 PM
You cant clone dead tissue/ cells. the cloning process in star wars shows it only touching the fine line of cloning, the perfect clone would not be phsycally linked to one another, nor share the memories unless the original was alive ,read the science behind star wars and you will see. To clone Master Sifo-Dyas's dna for the medicholrine gene for greivas "Star wars" visionaries" they had to keep him under a medical koma when he was half dead, so he wouldnt wake or die. Therefore able to retreive the dna and clone that specific part.
So to conclude, i must suggest that the original G Marek is and will certainally be in a near dead state but kept ( like a vegitable ) in one of those komas, thats why the mentally unstable clone ( the one you are playing as ) is phsycally attached to his memories. Vader wants to remove this and clone one who is not then he will destroy the original. p.s - this is to some content probably true but i am on the other hand just speculating. lol

DarthSlinky
11-13-2010, 03:55 AM
Starkiller need not be alive. The "Spirit" of force users exists long after their death. The force is the glue of the GFFA and I would not be surprised if it complicates cloning.

Zerimar Nyliram
11-13-2010, 08:05 PM
Actually, that's not right: In Star Wars, the ability to preserve one's consciousness after death is a technique that one must learn and perfect, and very few knew of it at the time of the movies. I can find no evidence that Galen knew of this technique, so I would assume that he faded into oblivion as any other soul that doesn't possess this secret knowledge. In fact, the novelization of the first game supports this for it describes Galen's soul rising from his body and then dissolving into nothingness.

Good post, Smith_Stalker. I hope you don't turn out to be one of those people that signs up for Lucas Forums only to make a single post and then goes away forever. ;)

MajinMikeyX
11-14-2010, 01:46 AM
It's hard to say but I'd like to say that Starkiller is alive. Considering the Distant Thunder cutscenes I like to think that Vader showed the Dark Clone the "dead" body of Starkiller and then after that Vader awakens or resurrects Starkiller and he has amnesia like Revan did in KotOR. Either that or that there's the Dark Clone and a good clone(the one we control in TFU2) and the original is still alive but in stasis.

Who knows though, the Distant Thunder cutscenes may not even be canon, and may only be used to create some sort of an infinities backstory to the Dark Clone just for the Dark Side ending.

Zerimar Nyliram
11-15-2010, 11:21 AM
They're canon. It's the only thing the make sense. As I explained in another thread, everything up to the moment where you make that dark side/light side choice is canon, including everything going on behind the scenes. That means that, for the events of the non-canonical dark side ending to play out, everything before then in the canonical portion of the story has to take place. The Dark Apprentice doesn't just "poof" into existence at that point. Therefore, he exists in the canonical story, but doesn't show his face.

Mandalorian Mercenary
12-06-2010, 04:56 PM
Yeah, it'd be kind've cheesy if the dark apprentice just popped out of thin air and stabbed Starkiller..

I believe this Galen Marek is a clone. Just because he had memories that the original Starkiller had doesn't mean he IS Starkiller. Remember, the clones of Jango Fett would often have memory flashbacks from HIM; and he died in Episode II.

Darca Lar
12-07-2010, 05:43 PM
You know, i'm gonna change my answer to alive. But I think he will truly be dead by the end of the third installment.

Mandalorian Mercenary
12-07-2010, 08:16 PM
Wait, there's a 3rd one coming?

Sordid Dreams
12-08-2010, 11:29 AM
The ending (or lack tereof) of TFU2 definitely indicates a planned third installment. I guess it depends on how it sells. If it makes a profit, then of course LA isn't going to let the franchise die.

Zerimar Nyliram
12-08-2010, 04:43 PM
I don't know about that. Look at Knights of the Old Republic.

Mandalorian Mercenary
12-08-2010, 06:11 PM
Indeed. Did you ever chase/fight Boba Fett in your game? I have it for PC, and I never got to fight or see him except for the brief cutscene with Vader.. :/

Sordid Dreams
12-08-2010, 06:33 PM
Exactly, look at Kotor. The first one was a huge hit, so they rushed a sequel out. That, due to being rushed, was significanly less well received and suffered much worse sales. And they axed the series.

There's a cutscene with Boba Fett and Vader, then you see Fett grab Juno and drag her away on the... Salvation or whatever that ship's name is, and then once you get to the hanger you see his ship blast away just as you enter the room. All in all, less than 30 seconds of screen time.

Zerimar Nyliram
12-09-2010, 03:00 PM
Yeah, it seems a complete waste of the character. We should've had more interaction with him, possibly even battling him as a boss. It's weird because when I read the part of the novel where Starkiller reaches hanger where Fett is abducting Juno, I though for sure there would have been ample interaction with the character in the game at that point. But nope! We barely even catch a glimpse of his ship departing, which was far less dramatic than it was in the novel and graphic novel (wherein Fett blasts out into space with Juno in his grasp and merely slaps a breathing mask on her, which is just retarded. I suppose, in a way, the way it played out in the game was good in that respect).

If you want to gain better insight into Boba Fett's role in the story, I suggest reading the graphic novel because that's about it. Unfortunate, yes.

Sordid Dreams
12-09-2010, 05:43 PM
Oh, and speaking of underwhelming, what about that bit where Juno is seen lying in the middle of an empty room? There was no indication of what knocked her out and the placement is so conspicuous that it just screamed TRAP! in my face. I thought she'd been knocked out by Fett and placed there as bait. But nope, guess not. :(

Mandalorian Mercenary
12-09-2010, 07:08 PM
Where was that again? ^^ And change your costume to a Nemoidian, it looks so stupid it's hilarious xD

Sordid Dreams
12-09-2010, 07:53 PM
That's on the Salvation, right before you encounter the Terror Troopers for the first time. You see Juno on the floor through some glass (which, unlike any other glass in the game, is inexplicably Force- and lightsaber-proof). Then you backtrack a bit, take the long way around, and smash through an identical looking glass just as Fett takes her away.

Smith_Stalker
12-10-2010, 01:28 PM
thank you Zerimar Nyliram hahah but no i am not a one time replyer, :) i have joined this forum as i am a loyal brethern to the Star Wars Universe and from knowledgeable terms i have read contless times i came up with that theory lol any questions just ask lol

Darca Lar
12-10-2010, 04:38 PM
That's on the Salvation, right before you encounter the Terror Troopers for the first time. You see Juno on the floor through some glass (which, unlike any other glass in the game, is inexplicably Force- and lightsaber-proof). Then you backtrack a bit, take the long way around, and smash through an identical looking glass just as Fett takes her away.

Actually I believe its a shield like from ep. 1, not glass. But the second was glass that also acted as a data screen

Sordid Dreams
12-10-2010, 10:05 PM
Which of course leads to the question of what kind of ship designer would put impenetrable forcefields between rooms on the inside but would make windows out of ordinary glass that breaks if you so much as cough at it.

Zerimar Nyliram
12-10-2010, 10:26 PM
Okay, there's one thing you need to keep in mind with videogames, and this applies to every single game ever made: Gameplay is never ever canon. Ever. The plot is canon, the non-combative character interactions are canon, and the general progression of the story is canon; but all of the elements that make up the game which the player interacts with and manipulates are purely representational because they are subject to the player's activities. Sometimes this includes some of the level designs, or even the entirety of them. With situations like the one in question, you just have to take the suspension-of-disbelief road and realize that it's only part of the gameplay.

This is the one universal rule of gaming. For The Force Unleashed in particular, we've got a higher level of storytelling that supersedes all other presentations of the story, and that is the novels. I'm not saying that the games should be dependent upon the novels in order to tell the entire story (which, unfortunately, they are in some cases), but that if ever there is a question as to how the story truly plays out when the gameplay factor leaves it ambiguous, the answer is to be found in the novels. If it isn't in the novels, then it's up to your own imagination.

Mandalorian Mercenary
12-10-2010, 11:38 PM
It'd be kind've nice if everything was destructible, just cut your way through the whole starship :p But then the game would be over in less than 30 minutes..

gallandro
01-02-2011, 10:12 PM
If we follow the George Lucas rule of "If it didn't happen on-screen, it didn't happen," then it's completely possible he's alive. The only evidence to the contrary is that Vader and Palpatine said he was dead about 30 seconds after the explosion.

One deep breath, followed by a, "Lord Vader, he lives still! Perhaps we can use this to our advantage" and we're completely back on track.

Zerimar Nyliram
01-03-2011, 02:16 AM
George Lucas doesn't really adhere to that philosophy, though. He says it, but then he turns around and reveals something that happened off-screen. What he really means is, "If happened on-screen, or if I say it happened, it happened."

Sordid Dreams
01-03-2011, 03:00 AM
Well yeah, but who pays any attention to what George says anymore?

gallandro
01-03-2011, 11:58 AM
Well yeah, but who pays any attention to what George says anymore?

Ha. Fair point.

My only point was that the book in no way can be considered proof that he died. I mean, in the Empire Strikes Back novel, Yoda is a 12" tall purple elf with long white hair.

Sordid Dreams
01-03-2011, 01:11 PM
What? Seriously?

Zerimar Nyliram
01-03-2011, 01:13 PM
It's not the same thing. The movie novelizations were adaptations of early versions of the scripts, when things weren't very clear, so the films take precedence over their novel counterparts. The same isn't true with The Force Unleashed, where both the game and the novel technically exist on the same level of canon ("C-Canon," to be exact). However, it has been said (either by the development team of Leland Chee at the Holocron Community, I can't remember which; possibly both) that the novels take priority over the games. So where there is a contradiction, we are to look to the novels first to see the way things "really" happened, and any additional info from the games is only canon if it can fit in with the events in the novels without contradicting them. (That, plus what I said in another thread about gameplay never being canon, ever).

For example: In the first novel, PROXY is possessed by the Core--the collective consciousness of the planet Raxus Prime--when he fights Starkiller. In the game, however, he's simply seizing the opportunity to achieve his primary function (which I was a bit disappointed to discover that it wasn't like the novel, personally). In this case, the novel's account is "truer" than the game's. In fact, the novelization of the second game references this event as it was told in the first novel, rather than the first game.

However, if there is a retcon at play, then yes, all of this information can certainly be overridden. However, I believe all of this Starkiller-isn't-really-a-clone business is just a bunch of fan wanking, and the Occam's Razor explanation is what is a play here: that he is indeed a clone.

gallandro
01-03-2011, 10:16 PM
It's not the same thing. The movie novelizations were adaptations of early versions of the scripts, when things weren't very clear, so the films take precedence over their novel counterparts. The same isn't true with The Force Unleashed, where both the game and the novel technically exist on the same level of canon ("C-Canon," to be exact). However, it has been said (either by the development team of Leland Chee at the Holocron Community, I can't remember which; possibly both) that the novels take priority over the games. So where there is a contradiction, we are to look to the novels first to see the way things "really" happened, and any additional info from the games is only canon if it can fit in with the events in the novels without contradicting them. (That, plus what I said in another thread about gameplay never being canon, ever).

For example: In the first novel, PROXY is possessed by the Core--the collective consciousness of the planet Raxus Prime--when he fights Starkiller. In the game, however, he's simply seizing the opportunity to achieve his primary function (which I was a bit disappointed to discover that it wasn't like the novel, personally). In this case, the novel's account is "truer" than the game's. In fact, the novelization of the second game references this event as it was told in the first novel, rather than the first game.

However, if there is a retcon at play, then yes, all of this information can certainly be overridden. However, I believe all of this Starkiller-isn't-really-a-clone business is just a bunch of fan wanking, and the Occam's Razor explanation is what is a play here: that he is indeed a clone.

Good point, although I disagree. Not with the facts of your statements, but with the implication. No matter what the developers have said, for 3 decades now, there has been one flat rule with Star Wars products: If it didn't happen on a screen, it didn't happen. Until the Force Unleashed, video games were excluded, but this game was specifically declared canon, which changes the rules, and if they later decide the game's ending was the ending, it's not entirely invalid. It wouldn't be a retcon, as this is new territory. If they want to change their minds and say the game itself was the "true" canon, there's no rule saying they can't.

I also disagree (respectfully) about the fan wanking. They purposely created it as a mystery in the context of the story. This isn't a "Boba Fett survived" thing. This is a fundamental plot element to the point that main characters declare he can't possibly be a clone because force users can't be cloned. It's not fan wanking when the story deliberately sets it up as a mystery. It's perfectly reasonable and fair speculation. It's actually a fundamental part of the story itself, in the book and the game. I can't see - in any connotation - how that could be considered fan wanking.

My personal belief is that he's not a clone. Not because that's what I want to happen (I personally hoped the sequel would be about a new character, as I felt the Force Unleashed story was complete with the first game). But since they didn't go that route, I think he's not a clone for two reasons:

1. Since this is now part of the official Star Wars saga, it would throw a massive hydrospanner into the works in regards to episodes IV, V, and VI. If Vader and the Emperor have perfected cloning, there's simply no way I think it can be explained away that they never tried it again, considering they have infinite resources. Luke should have been fighting twenty Palpatines. A hundred. I think the trilogy will motivate them - from a story standpoint - to make it so Starkiller is the real deal, and they'll find a way to conveniently get rid of him.

The only other option I can think of is if they decide to declare that only the first game/book was canon and the rest is just an offshoot reality. If that's the case, all my theories are void.

2. Kota. His absolute confidence that Starkiller isn't a clone is guided by his logic, but also because the force told him (in the book and I think in the game). I think the inclusion of magic (the force) is the single strongest indicator that he will be Starkiller. Kota has yet to be wrong, that I recall.

So far they have (barely) managed to tell a genuinely good story without directly contradicting the events of the movies. If Starkiller is a clone, they'll have a much, much more difficult time doing this (IMO).

gallandro
01-03-2011, 10:22 PM
What? Seriously?

Yup. Tiny, purple elf.

But to be fair, Zerimar is correct in that those novelizations are based on early screenplays.

That aside, I definitely recommend them. In Return of the Jedi, the unspoken interaction between Luke and the Emperor during the final confrontation is really, really cool.

Zerimar Nyliram
01-04-2011, 02:50 AM
That it is, and I couldn't help but notice that it retroactively feels like a reference to Yoda's and Sidious' battle in Revenge of the Sith.

The "if-it-didn't-happen-on-screen-it-didn't-happen" rule corresponds only to the films themselves (which, as I mentioned, has the unfortunate unspoken addition of "It also happened if George Lucas said so"). This isn't the same as video games. Yes, the game has been declared canon, but it wasn't the first time; almost all Star Wars games are canon. C-Canon, that is. The films are G-Canon. Even if George Lucas pointedly declares that he considers the events of a certain game, novel or comic book to have "truly occurred" within his universe, it doesn't automatically elevate that piece of media to G-Canon (because he's also made the same declaration about Knights of the Old Republic as well as the Dark Empire comic series, the latter of which he would later come to denounce).

So just because something has George Lucas' stamp of approval doesn't automatically put it on the same level of canonicity as the movies. After all, Lucas has the notorious habit of going back on his word and contradicting those stories, or even flat-out disowning them.

Further, how can The Force Unleashed possibly be G-Canon if Lucas' own animated television series, The Clone Wars, isn't even that high? (It's on it's own level: "T-Canon," which a new category and the second highest, between G and C.)

Yes, The Force Unleashed is canon, but in the same sense that the rest of the Expanded Universe is canon.

As for your points about Starkiller, they are fairly convincing, except for one small factor: the Dark Apprentice from the dark side ending and the "Distant Thunder" videos. Now, there's a perfect clone of a Force user, as Vader stated. They can't both be the real Starkiller. (And let's not get into the whole debate over whether or not the Dark Apprentice truly exists despite the non-canon ending. I've made this argument at length in the past. In short, the only logical conclusion is that he does exist.)

Sordid Dreams
01-04-2011, 03:38 AM
Gawd. C-canon? T-canon? G-canon? And I get told off for taking this stuff too seriously?

As for your points about Starkiller, they are fairly convincing, except for one small factor: the Dark Apprentice from the dark side ending and the "Distant Thunder" videos. Now, there's a perfect clone of a Force user, as Vader stated.
Considering how little we've seen of him, I wouldn't make such a bold statement. If Vader was telling the truth and imperfect clones eventually go insane, he may well turn out to be unstable. Maybe his insanity just manifests later. Indeed, being able to suppress memories and convince himself that he's somebody else than he remembers would make him pretty damn crazy in my book.
Alternately, of course, he may actually be the real Starkiller, whom Vader managed to convince that he's a clone. The protagonist would then be just another clone, and indeed towards the end he does seem to become more unstable and obsessed, and experiences hallucinations complete with hearing voices.

gallandro
01-04-2011, 05:27 PM
That it is, and I couldn't help but notice that it retroactively feels like a reference to Yoda's and Sidious' battle in Revenge of the Sith.

The "if-it-didn't-happen-on-screen-it-didn't-happen" rule corresponds only to the films themselves (which, as I mentioned, has the unfortunate unspoken addition of "It also happened if George Lucas said so"). This isn't the same as video games. Yes, the game has been declared canon, but it wasn't the first time; almost all Star Wars games are canon. C-Canon, that is. The films are G-Canon. Even if George Lucas pointedly declares that he considers the events of a certain game, novel or comic book to have "truly occurred" within his universe, it doesn't automatically elevate that piece of media to G-Canon (because he's also made the same declaration about Knights of the Old Republic as well as the Dark Empire comic series, the latter of which he would later come to denounce).

So just because something has George Lucas' stamp of approval doesn't automatically put it on the same level of canonicity as the movies. After all, Lucas has the notorious habit of going back on his word and contradicting those stories, or even flat-out disowning them.

Further, how can The Force Unleashed possibly be G-Canon if Lucas' own animated television series, The Clone Wars, isn't even that high? (It's on it's own level: "T-Canon," which a new category and the second highest, between G and C.)

Yes, The Force Unleashed is canon, but in the same sense that the rest of the Expanded Universe is canon.

As for your points about Starkiller, they are fairly convincing, except for one small factor: the Dark Apprentice from the dark side ending and the "Distant Thunder" videos. Now, there's a perfect clone of a Force user, as Vader stated. They can't both be the real Starkiller. (And let's not get into the whole debate over whether or not the Dark Apprentice truly exists despite the non-canon ending. I've made this argument at length in the past. In short, the only logical conclusion is that he does exist.)

Before I get in argument mode, let me just say it's a pleasure debating this with you. I love debates that aren't full of attackery (new word!).

That said, I think the distinction of the Force Unleashed is the Lucas did the story for it (the first one, that is), and has even made comments to that he's toyed with the idea of a movie about Starkiller, although he later recanted - in classic Lucas fashion.

And as for Starkiller, I'm talking about the story of the game, not the game itself. There is a difference. The devs stated that the "lightside" ending is the actual ending and the darkside breaks off in a "what if" tangent. At least they said that about TFU1. I'm not sure about part 2.

My actual position that Starkiller isn't a clone isn't based on my love of the character. Like I said, I wish they had left his story alone with the first game and told someone else's tale with the second. My hope that he's real is because if he's not, it'll be the final straw that - for me -turns this story from a good story to absolute cheese. Just IMHO.

Zerimar Nyliram
01-04-2011, 06:42 PM
Well, I think the new DLC kind of solidifies the dark side ending as apocryphal, because we're shown that it leads into a version of the original Trilogy that is very different from what we know. Plus, the light side endings are always canonical. It's just how LucasArts rolls.

Hey, likewise. It's so good to not have a debate end with all parties going for one another's jugulars. I'm used to that from other forums, though there I tend to argue politics, which is always a touchy subject.

Darca Lar
01-04-2011, 10:59 PM
Lightside is how they roll. They should make something that of the Darth Bane novels.

JediOrinDavari
01-05-2011, 03:35 PM
Honestly I believe that Starkiller was just presumed dead. vader lied to Palpatine and told him that hes dead. But then after the emperor wasnt looking, he had took starkiller to kamino to make clones of him, but Starkiller woke up suddenly and broke out. Though vader did make some clones that went mad. I mean seriously, Starkiller is too powerful for them to just claim him as dead. And in the dark side ending when the dark clone sees the body of starkiller/ The body he sees is of a clone. Thats my opinion.

Klw
01-06-2011, 02:20 AM
I can find no evidence that Galen knew of this technique, so I would assume that he faded into oblivion as any other soul that doesn't possess this secret knowledge.

I don't know if you've seen this yet, but on the official Facebook page a developer said:

(Original Question: "At the end of TFU Starkiller supposedly dies (LS ending) yet didnt become one with the Force...why not?" - Joe Tapp)

Answer: "Without touching spoiler territory (I'm not about to reveal whether or not he died!) it is important to remember that the technique to become one with the Force like Anakin, Yoda, and Obi-Wan was something passed on through Qui-Gon Jinn. Yoda even had to teach Obi-Wan about it after Episode 3."

Considering that Starkiller was the student of Obi-Wan's student, what do you make of this? Does it help at all, or is it just a useless answer? Maybe he's just relating some handy SW knowledge.

starkiller1157
01-06-2011, 03:12 AM
..it is important to remember that the technique to become one with the Force like Anakin, Yoda, and Obi-Wan was something passed on through Qui-Gon Jinn. Yoda even had to teach Obi-Wan about it after Episode 3."

Also in the Revenge of the Sith Novelization, Yoda was speaking to Qui-Gon in the force and he(qui-gon) was teaching Yoda.

It's hard to understand if Anakin was ever taught this. There is no mention of it in the prequels. And originally, before I saw The Phantom Menace, I assumed it happened to all Jedi.

I'm curious where the developers were going with the story. At this point, I highly doubt there will be a 3rd game. It's gotten some pretty bad reviews and was even nominated as the top 5 worse sequels =/

I prefered the idea that Starkillers soul returned and entered one of the clones, but I don't think that's what the developers chose, since all the clones had the memories...

Zerimar Nyliram
01-06-2011, 02:47 PM
I don't know if you've seen this yet, but on the official Facebook page a developer said:

(Original Question: "At the end of TFU Starkiller supposedly dies (LS ending) yet didnt become one with the Force...why not?" - Joe Tapp)

Answer: "Without touching spoiler territory (I'm not about to reveal whether or not he died!) it is important to remember that the technique to become one with the Force like Anakin, Yoda, and Obi-Wan was something passed on through Qui-Gon Jinn. Yoda even had to teach Obi-Wan about it after Episode 3."

Considering that Starkiller was the student of Obi-Wan's student, what do you make of this? Does it help at all, or is it just a useless answer? Maybe he's just relating some handy SW knowledge.

Yes, I know. That's why the novelization of The Force Unleashed describes his soul sort of fizzling out, because he doesn't know the technique.

Also in the Revenge of the Sith Novelization, Yoda was speaking to Qui-Gon in the force and he(qui-gon) was teaching Yoda.

It's hard to understand if Anakin was ever taught this. There is no mention of it in the prequels. And originally, before I saw The Phantom Menace, I assumed it happened to all Jedi.

Yeah, we all assumed that. The official word from "the man" is that Anakin sort of received a crash course in performing this technique from Obi-Wan and Yoda upon his death, before he had a chance to fade away. He'd already achieved it halfway with his selfless sacrifice to save his son, so all that was left was knowing how to preserve his consciousness in the Force. We're also told that he achieved this, and that Luke merely burned the suit and mechanical portions of Darth Vader, the body having joined the Force.

gallandro
01-06-2011, 10:40 PM
Also in the Revenge of the Sith Novelization, Yoda was speaking to Qui-Gon in the force and he(qui-gon) was teaching Yoda.

It's hard to understand if Anakin was ever taught this. There is no mention of it in the prequels. And originally, before I saw The Phantom Menace, I assumed it happened to all Jedi.

I'm curious where the developers were going with the story. At this point, I highly doubt there will be a 3rd game. It's gotten some pretty bad reviews and was even nominated as the top 5 worse sequels =/

I prefered the idea that Starkillers soul returned and entered one of the clones, but I don't think that's what the developers chose, since all the clones had the memories...

Anakin wasn't taught it because Obi Wan wasn't taught until after Anakin became Vader. Yoda first tells Obi Wan of it on the Tantive IV, just before they go into hiding.

That said, it's well established that Starkiller is an anomaly that seems to naturally come across some abilities that others had to be taught. It's completely possible that he developed the ability on his own, just as Qui Gon did.

I think Qui Gon was able to do it because his focus was on the "Living Force." The force that focused on the here and now. He followed his instincts more than any jedi code, and Starkiller lives by that exact same path. I think that opens the door to all sorts of possibilities with Starkiller and death (sadly).

Zerimar Nyliram
01-06-2011, 11:09 PM
Anakin wasn't taught it because Obi Wan wasn't taught until after Anakin became Vader. Yoda first tells Obi Wan of it on the Tantive IV, just before they go into hiding.

See my post above.