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View Full Version : will SK die in TFU2? (possible spoilers)


francium34
01-21-2010, 02:34 AM
Another thought, since Starkiller is going to be back, how will it end this time?
Some argue that he is too powerful to be left into the movie era, but wouldn't killing the character twice be totally lame?

I had the same idea as some else in the forum, his link to the force can be cut. Willingly, accidentally, whatever. Too many sad endings in starwars stories! Please don't kill him off AGAIN!

Besides, if TFU2 is an even bigger hit, it's easier to bring him back for a third run, right? :)

Harkonnen07
01-21-2010, 03:36 AM
Killing him again would be kinda lame, as it would be really stupid to bring him back just to kill him again.

adamqd
01-21-2010, 05:03 AM
He's already Dead, and I've yet to see evidence of an acceptable resurrection yet lol, but as I always say, the game is too over the top and SK is too powerful compared to the Main Characters, so canon and movie era problems are irrelevant, because its not G canon anyway.

DarthSlinky
01-21-2010, 09:04 AM
What level of cannon is TFU then, gl was in on the project so that has to count for something.

Kurgan
01-21-2010, 01:52 PM
All the games are pretty low on the canon scale (though I've stopped caring about Star Wars canon a long time ago... for me it's the original theatrical trilogy and then the prequels, though at times I'm willing to forget the prequels even exist so I can enjoy the originals... and lets be real, Star Wars was written originally to be a stand alone film).

Where games are concerned, the MECHANICS of the game and the player choices really can be ignored. Essentially a condensed version of each game's backstory and characters can be considered part of the EU. When a novel or comic or something comes out about a game, they usually bastardize or water-down the game's story/characters/events and fit that somehow into the canon.

And for your technical folks who follow this stuff, the game story/characters is part of the C-Canon. It doesn't matter if George Lucas wrote every line of code in the game himself, that's not how the G-canon is defined. He's had involvement with a LOT of EU projects, but none of them are considered G-canon (And just FYI, the CGI "clone wars" shows and theatrical movie are in a class all by themselves called "T-canon").

It's interesting to note that back in 1987 they made a Star Wars RPG. The writers were given a lot of freedom to make up backstories and stuff for characters, and mechanics, etc. Lucas didn't seem to care or he gave them tidbits that they expanded upon. A lot of these were forgotten over the years or changed in subsequent EU products, but it seems like a lot of EU novelists and comic writers were either fans of the RPG or they got lazy and cribbed a lot of material from those early sources. So even though the games are pretty much nothing, they have had a lot of influence on the Star Wars story outside the movies. It's funny because though I never played it, after reading the books I realized a lot of the "Star Wars lore" and "facts" I thought I knew were actually taken directly from those games. So why should it be any different with the video games?

So you can think of it like this... something LIKE what happens in the games, happens in the Expanded Universe, and that's how it all fits together. There's no real "rule" that anyone has to follow (other than Lucas' own whims, which aren't based on some grand consistent vision but making money). If Lucas wanted to resurrect a character even if his body was blasted to atoms, he could just give the greenlight and that's that. And while some will say that George is concerned about keeping his story straight and "clean" that's really not that big a deal, considering how fast and loose he plays with his own continuity (movies, special editions, re-edits) and the fact that he probably figures the EU is a cash cow that helps keep the "Star Wars" brand in the public mind, but the percentage of fans who pay close attention to it is minuscule compared to the folks who remember the movies.

But the games can't truly be "canon" because when you think about it, if you jump over a wall and kill two storm troopers in a certain way, is that event now "canon"? Some other player might dodge the stormtroopers. Maybe another player will get killed by the stormtroopers. Which event is canon? Sounds silly, but apparently the folks at the Ranch think about that kind of stuff, and so to keep people happy (they figure fans want a minimum of inclusion of sources in some grand "saga" and they want some minimum consistency) they'll just say something like the games happened and leave it at that.

adamqd
01-21-2010, 03:21 PM
^^^ What he said :) hehe

Zerimar Nyliram
01-21-2010, 09:12 PM
Yeah, killing Galen again would be an action better left to the Department of Redundancy Department.

Qui-Gon Glenn
01-26-2010, 09:09 PM
If he dies, it will be for the first time. I know it appears ridiculous (correction: it is ridiculous), but we never see SK's tombstone, we only see him lying motionless after the Lightning Match with the Dumperor. We assume he is dead because Palpy complains about him now being more powerful than ever (as a martyr, we presumed).

Hard to swallow? You betcha....

TKA-001
01-26-2010, 09:31 PM
will SK die in TFU2?
Anyone's guess, considering the fact that we know nothing about the story except that there's a Starkiller running around again before ANH who is probably the same person and not a clone.

Everyone was so pissed at the fact that he died at all that they never guessed he'd ever be canonically brought back to life. Now that they've broken that one boundary, anything can happen.

Personally, I hope he dies a much more gruesome death this time around and (for bonus points) stays dead. Killing him again won't make the overall story any worse because it was already a bone-headed idea to bring him back (by any means) in the first place. They don't have much to lose at this point.

Blix
01-26-2010, 10:05 PM
It's unlikely LA will kill him off anytime in the near future, especially if TFU does well with this title and potentional future titles.

Qui-Gon Glenn
01-26-2010, 10:38 PM
It's unlikely LA will kill him off anytime in the near future, especially if TFU does well with this title and potentional future titles.

How much can they squeeze from this rock? The timeframe already is tight, and if things start overlapping movie-timelines, then.... well, what can I say, GL has done it before, and again, and again.

This, IMO, has to be the last TFU. They can make a new game with the same engine, it would have to be called something else, or a different character would need to be the protagonist. Starkiller's fifteen minutes are surely up after TFU2.

Blix
01-26-2010, 11:26 PM
^
True. I agree that they can only do so much with SK, in fact TFU probably should have been his final appearance leaving the door open for Rahm to train a force-sensitive to take his place for TFU-2.

In truth they probably should have handled it like in KOTOR/TSL and end SK's chapter with the first game, not to mention the tribute ceremony now seems moot or irrelevent with what we know about TFU-2.
They should've killed him, like how Revan's tale was over in KOTOR (& if a K3 is ever made I doubt the Exile will be returning) SK's fate should have been sealed, but LA obviously sees money in the character so sequels and other TFU content will most likely continue albeit depending on how well sales for TFU-2 fare.

TKA-001
01-27-2010, 10:18 AM
It's unlikely LA will kill him off anytime in the near future, especially if TFU does well with this title and potentional future titles.
People also said that it was unlikely that he would die the first time, and even more unlikely that he'd be brought back. Both happened.

Blix
01-27-2010, 09:17 PM
People also said that it was unlikely that he would die the first time, and even more unlikely that he'd be brought back. Both happened.


True. There's always too sides to a coin, and LA could lose fans both ways (sorta like Nomura's indecision for an FFVII remake). Of course I think there could be tons of possibilities for a new secret apprentice or maybe 'Emperor's hand' :)

Ghost
01-28-2010, 09:44 PM
Killing the main character once, fine, twice, kills the story. Because sure it would be interesting the FIRST time, but the second time it is just old, and nobody will want to play the third game as they will probably know what happens at the end

Zerimar Nyliram
01-29-2010, 01:02 PM
Yeah, just look at Neo. His "final" death at the end of The Matrix trilogy felt cheap because they'd already had him die and be resurrected once.

I know I made the case about something from KOTOR being redundant in another thread if they did it with Galen, but here's something that I still maintain would work well, even if it is a tad redundant: make a trilogy out of The Force Unleashed, and then have Galen willingly undergo the process of being cut off from the Force at the end so that he may live a normal life. As we've all discussed, a second (or actually third) death would be cheap, but we can't have him alive and fighting for the Rebel Alliance at the time of the films because it would be an injustice to Luke, who is the galaxy's "only hope." I think if Galen were to aproach Kota and what ever other Jedi are around at the time asking that they please study the ancient ritual and cut him off from the Force, it'd work well because then he can hang low and maybe even serve as a prominent Rebel commander (I liked the costume so much that I've always sort of wished it could have been true).

It's a little redundant, I know, but I believe it to be the lesser of two evils as opposed to yet another death. Remember that the Jedi Masters in The Sith Lords never actually performed the ritual on the Exile, though they were about to. Plus, this is something that did no originate with KOTOR: it goes back further, to the Tales of the Jedi comics, where it was performed on Ulic Qel-Droma by Nomi Sunrider. As such, many fans are sure to associate it with that rather than KOTOR. In fact, Qel-Droma is more renown for it than the Exile is.

Ghost
01-30-2010, 11:24 AM
good point, if he were to lay low, then he probably would go seek out the training of other Jedi Masters like Yoda, since this is still before ANH. Unless he just wanted a normal life to be with his gf

bliznez
02-01-2010, 08:44 AM
Yeah, just look at Neo. His "final" death at the end of The Matrix trilogy felt cheap because they'd already had him die and be resurrected once.

I know I made the case about something from KOTOR being redundant in another thread if they did it with Galen, but here's something that I still maintain would work well, even if it is a tad redundant: make a trilogy out of The Force Unleashed, and then have Galen willingly undergo the process of being cut off from the Force at the end so that he may live a normal life. As we've all discussed, a second (or actually third) death would be cheap, but we can't have him alive and fighting for the Rebel Alliance at the time of the films because it would be an injustice to Luke, who is the galaxy's "only hope." I think if Galen were to aproach Kota and what ever other Jedi are around at the time asking that they please study the ancient ritual and cut him off from the Force, it'd work well because then he can hang low and maybe even serve as a prominent Rebel commander (I liked the costume so much that I've always sort of wished it could have been true).

It's a little redundant, I know, but I believe it to be the lesser of two evils as opposed to yet another death. Remember that the Jedi Masters in The Sith Lords never actually performed the ritual on the Exile, though they were about to. Plus, this is something that did no originate with KOTOR: it goes back further, to the Tales of the Jedi comics, where it was performed on Ulic Qel-Droma by Nomi Sunrider. As such, many fans are sure to associate it with that rather than KOTOR. In fact, Qel-Droma is more renown for it than the Exile is.

Uhhhh.... no. Just NO.
Comparing a TFU with Matrix is just a compelete fail- i mean, one is a serious sci-fi with a theme of philosophy and real- life action, and another is a child- game based on a kids' six-movie-tale.

As for KOTOR- well, what can i say;
it was a diferent time- different Era- and the different SITH LORDS themselves- only sith rules were the same (such as "only two" - rule). so, theoraticaly, if SK becomes a jedi (Which is quite likely- we r following the cannon version here, right? light side, blue sabers.....) then there will be no "Need" to have him dead.

Zerimar Nyliram
02-01-2010, 01:52 PM
Uh, well, there will be a "need" to get rid of him somehow: because when the time of the movies rolls around, having some other Jedi out there (and as I've explained in another thread, Galen is not actually a Jedi, unless he receives proper training by an actual Jedi, followed by knighting; but that's another discussion) who is more powerful than Luke and easily deals fatal blows to the Empire very much cheapens Luke's significance as the last hope for the restoration of freedom and justice in the Galaxy. And if Galen is still around during the events of the original trilogy, why is he not continuing the struggle against the Empire, and why are his exploits not heard of or their results seen?

That's a major plot hole, my friend. If LucasArts are smart, they have to take Galen Marek out of the picture in order to make way for Luke Skywalker. But like I said, another death would be redundant, so I propose an alternative method.

And, uh, how is comparing all of this to The Matrix not applicable in this respect? A redundant death is a redundant death! It doesn't matter what the story is like, any time you do it, it's cheap.

Also, you can't say Star Wars is for kids and that The Matrix is "serious." They both make use of flashy effects and imaginative alternate realities. Which demographic do you think both franchises appeals to more: the young or the old?

And, uh, it's the Rule of Two. ;)

Zwier Zak
02-08-2010, 07:06 AM
1. Oly the preqels are for kids.

2. SA is not as strong as Luke. More trained at the time yes but Luke is the stronger force user overall.

3. I agree SA should be dead. He's just to powerful to be running around in the time of the movies.

Darth Eclipse
02-08-2010, 11:24 AM
1. Oly the preqels are for kids.

2. SA is not as strong as Luke. More trained at the time yes but Luke is the stronger force user overall.

3. I agree SA should be dead. He's just to powerful to be running around in the time of the movies.


Maybe he gets stuck in the arena?

Zerimar Nyliram
02-08-2010, 02:35 PM
"SA"?

adamqd
02-08-2010, 06:27 PM
I'm Guessing he means Secret Apprentice

Zerimar Nyliram
02-09-2010, 01:52 PM
Ohhhhhh, right.

Zwier Zak
02-10-2010, 06:30 PM
Yeah sorry. :P Everyone on the official lucasarts forum call him SA for short and I just kind of stuck with it.

Zerimar Nyliram
02-11-2010, 03:47 PM
Well, real fans (geeks) call him Galen Marek because they've read the book and will settle for nothing less pedantic. ;)

Te Darasuum Mandalor
02-11-2010, 07:03 PM
If they have a sequal, they will most likely have a third. Or even an FU Online game! That would be something, but that may be kinda copying SW Galaxies.

Ghost
02-11-2010, 07:59 PM
Or even an FU Online game!

No No NO!

An MMO would ruin the whole concept of FU. It was MEANT as a single player game. Haven't you heard of TOR? 2 mmos at a time would take too much energy to work on.

Te Darasuum Mandalor
02-12-2010, 08:34 AM
ohh yeah, you are right. Star Wars Galaxies is already enough! LOL

TKA-001
02-12-2010, 02:57 PM
Well, real fans (geeks) call him Galen Marek because they've read the book and will settle for nothing less pedantic. ;)
Isn't his name in the game manual?

Also, I've read the novel. In it, the narrative never refers to Galen by his name or even his code name when it is told from his point of view. Even after he learns that his name used to be Galen, it's still "the apprentice jumped to the shore" instead of "Galen jumped to the shore", and he seems to regard Galen as a different person from himself. It was a really neat little narrative device, and because of it, I personally like to just call him "the apprentice".

Zerimar Nyliram
02-12-2010, 03:10 PM
Yeah, I was kidding, chief. Hence the winky emoticon.

I don't remember seeing his name in the manual, but you might be right.

Te Darasuum Mandalor
02-12-2010, 06:56 PM
Yeah, the name "Starkiller" is kinda dumb and kiddish if you ask me! I think we should refer to him as Galen or the Apprentice. It would just be stupid if he died at the end of this game too, because they will probably make a third, and if he comes back to life AGAIN in the third, it would just be another reason not to play it. I sure hope this one has a logical explination of how he is suddenly alive again. I hope it isn't some sort of dumb reserection. I still look forward to this game though!

Ghost
02-12-2010, 07:30 PM
:dozey: Starkiller was a fine name for Marek, it was his codename, and that's why it was chosen. Galen was so badass that Vader had to give him a badass name

Zerimar Nyliram
02-12-2010, 08:12 PM
"Starkiller" is too fanboyish for me, and "the Apprentice" makes me think of Donald Trump. So it's Galen (Marek) it is.

Te Darasuum Mandalor
02-12-2010, 08:20 PM
[QUOTE=Zerimar Nyliram;2706659]"Starkiller" is too fanboyish for me, and "the Apprentice" makes me think of Donald Trump.:lol:


YOUR FIRED!

**Just kidding:jester1:**


The Idea of Galen returning has kinda grown on me personally!

Can't wait!

Ghost
02-12-2010, 10:20 PM
"Starkiller" is too fanboyish for me, and "the Apprentice" makes me think of Donald Trump. So it's Galen (Marek) it is.

Yh, but then again nobody could know Vader's Apprentice's real identity, or could they? :raise:

Te Darasuum Mandalor
02-13-2010, 08:08 AM
good point, maybe the apprentice isn't who we think it is after all!

Ghost
02-13-2010, 12:02 PM
... ::

Galen Marek was Starkiller's true name. It was said in the game, it was said in the comics and books, it was said in the resource guide.

Erkiengillinn
02-13-2010, 03:18 PM
If he dies, it will be for the first time. I know it appears ridiculous (correction: it is ridiculous), but we never see SK's tombstone, we only see him lying motionless after the Lightning Match with the Dumperor. We assume he is dead because Palpy complains about him now being more powerful than ever (as a martyr, we presumed).

Hard to swallow? You betcha....

...thats just beyond lame. >.<
if they go with that idea (plot "hole") im applying for creative work at LA.
...#1 suggestion, Do not kill characters that you intend on bringing back.
#2 dead characters, stay dead.

anyone?:raise:

Lord Foley
02-13-2010, 03:30 PM
Uhhhh.... no. Just NO.
Comparing a TFU with Matrix is just a compelete fail- i mean, one is a serious sci-fi with a theme of philosophy and real- life action, and another is a child- game based on a kids' six-movie-tale.

The Matrix isn't so much serious as it is melodramatic and hokey. Reminded me of the 'philosophical' discussions I had in 8th grade.

Personally, regardless of whether Galen is or is not more powerful than Luke yada yada... Zerimar is 100% right. I don't remember who it was in this thread (or maybe another thread) who said no one thought they would kill Starkiller in the first game, but the first thing I thought as soon as I heard of 'Vader's Secret Apprentice' was, "Well, at least we know he'll die in the end." He needs to get gone, preferably along with Kota and Maris.

Zerimar Nyliram
02-13-2010, 06:06 PM
Haha! Was the "Dumperor" comment intentional?

Also, does it annoy anyone else when people come in her, sign up, make a single post, and then never post again, as is the case with this thread's creator? This seems to happen a lot on Lucas Forums.

Ghost
02-14-2010, 01:10 AM
Yes, but this forum is not alone. Many other forums have those kind of people who join and only post once or don't post at all. What's the point of joining if you don't even want to be part of the community?

Anyway, back on topic of TFU 2, I would have liked to see a continuation of the DS ending for Ultimate Sith Edition as an addon or an extra part, just to see what happened, because it left a lot of cliff hangars. I know it's not canon, but that whole plot was really interesting. What happened to Gelen, Luke, the Rebels? Did luke become Galen's apprentice, did the rebels go bye bye, Did luke gill Starkiller? all these questions left unanswered. Sure Galen said "Very good my apprentice" at the end but that still confused me. If there is to be an explanation for the events in USE, let it me in TFU2. Hopefully, LA will have the brains to keep Galen alive or either put another main character in his place

Lord Foley
02-14-2010, 04:24 PM
Also, does it annoy anyone else when people come in her, sign up, make a single post, and then never post again, as is the case with this thread's creator? This seems to happen a lot on Lucas Forums.

To be fair, I disappear for months on end.

And I'll just make my opinion clear: Galen needs to die. Galen needs to die. Galen needs to die. "Now the Jedi are all but extinct," not, "There are several Jedi still laying waste to the Empire single handedly as we speak. That's not including the countless who are in hiding or who you will encounter later in the EU, Luke. Also, there are a lot more Sith out there (even though Vader supposedly brought balance to the Force by destroying the Sith.)"

They can't just keep creating more Jedi/Sith (powerful ones, no less) and doing nothing to fit it in with the Original Trilogy.

Zerimar Nyliram
02-14-2010, 08:29 PM
Yeah, I was just going to say, "Uh, I hate to break it to you, but more than one hundred Jedi survived the Purge, and many joined Luke's New Jedi Order," but I see you're already aware of what happens in the EU (which TFU is a part of, mind you). The truth be told, I don't like this, either. I mean, this was happening as far back as the early '90s, when all that existed was the original Trilogy. I mean, hello! Did you guys not take note of Obi-Wan's and Yoda's lines (looking primarily at you, Tom Veich)? But unfortunately, it's happened, it's here, and we have to live with it.

As such, my theory is that Obi-Wan and Yoda had a very particular view of what a Jedi was. To them, a true Jedi was not one who abandoned the Order and went away to hide with no intention of preserving or resurrecting it. That was the way of a coward. Obi-Wan and Yoda perhaps considered those Jedi fallen, while they themselves alone possessed the will to keep the Order going through their training of Luke, and to see it thrive again once he "passed on what he had learned."

It's one of those "certain points of view," I guess. Like I said, I don't like it and I wish Luke truly was the one remaining Jedi in the galaxy; but still, we have to deal with what we're given. Besides, these little technicalities makes it feel a bit more like a legend set within real history (like the fact that there were already Hebrew tribes living within Canaan before the Israelites arrived).

And, as I said before, there are no more Sith! The EU, while pushing it to the limit, has actually been very good about preserving the Rule of Two, at least in the most technical sense imaginable.

Lord Foley
02-15-2010, 12:41 AM
And, as I said before, there are no more Sith! The EU, while pushing it to the limit, has actually been very good about preserving the Rule of Two, at least in the most technical sense imaginable.

...Legacy era?

Shem
02-15-2010, 05:00 AM
Anyway, back on topic of TFU 2, I would have liked to see a continuation of the DS ending for Ultimate Sith Edition as an addon or an extra part, just to see what happened, because it left a lot of cliff hangars. I know it's not canon, but that whole plot was really interesting. What happened to Gelen, Luke, the Rebels? Did luke become Galen's apprentice, did the rebels go bye bye, Did luke gill Starkiller? all these questions left unanswered. Sure Galen said "Very good my apprentice" at the end but that still confused me. If there is to be an explanation for the events in USE, let it me in TFU2. Hopefully, LA will have the brains to keep Galen alive or either put another main character in his place
I don't see the point in that because the game is focuses on being Starkiller. Having Luke there is something that gets in the way now if you catch my meaning.

And the point of these missions is to have something to do and a big boss fight. The only Jedi left is Yoda. The problem with that is exploring Dagobah. Killing wildlife over and over again isn't going to be very fun. The Yoda fight could be, but that's it.

Anyway, that's the only mission I can think of that would be be worth considering, but even I don't think it would be unless you have a situation where Yoda leaves Dagobah and you get to fight maybe some more Rebels.

That's why I wouldn't expect more missions for the alternate ending of TFU. It is what it is.

adamqd
02-15-2010, 06:51 AM
...Legacy era?

The Rule of two is a doctrine of Darth bane and his line of Sith Lords, Lumiya and Jacen follow this, the One Sith of the Legacy era Follow the ancient Xoxaan... A Sith of the purest stock, The Lost Tribe are also more Closely related to the aforementioned Sith, under the Banner of Naga Sadow, another Sith Group not confined by a two Sith Rule

Zwier Zak
02-15-2010, 01:20 PM
I kind of hope he dies. :raise:

Zerimar Nyliram
02-15-2010, 02:10 PM
...Legacy era?

Yeeeeeeaaaahhhh . . . that's . . . long after the movies . . .

Really not sure what you're getting at here. The Rule of Two at the time of the movies remained intact and was never broken (unless you count a few minor things from before the prequels came out, which have been since retconned).

Zerimar Nyliram
02-15-2010, 02:15 PM
The Rule of two is a doctrine of Darth bane and his line of Sith Lords, Lumiya and Jacen follow this, the One Sith of the Legacy era Follow the ancient Xoxaan... A Sith of the purest stock, The Lost Tribe are also more Closely related to the aforementioned Sith, under the Banner of Naga Sadow, another Sith Group not confined by a two Sith Rule

Oh yeah, the Lost Tribe of the Sith does technically violate the Rule of Two (which is ironic because they've been so diligent about preserving it since The Phantom Menace came out and have retconned all previously contradictory instances to fit with it, and now they go ahead and violate it with the most unlikely scenario). But I guess if you look at it from the perspective that this tribe was an offshoot of the Sith and had departed so far from traditional Sith doctrines that they would not be taken seriously by the "true" Sith (Bane's order), I guess it's not very serious.

If that makes any sense.

Lord Foley
02-16-2010, 12:35 PM
Oh yeah, the Lost Tribe of the Sith does technically violate the Rule of Two (which is ironic because they've been so diligent about preserving it since The Phantom Menace came out and have retconned all previously contradictory instances to fit with it, and now they go ahead and violate it with the most unlikely scenario). But I guess if you look at it from the perspective that this tribe was an offshoot of the Sith and had departed so far from traditional Sith doctrines that they would not be taken seriously by the "true" Sith (Bane's order), I guess it's not very serious.

If that makes any sense.

All the talk of "True" Sith is retarded in my humble opinion. There's the lost tribe of the Sith, and Vergere supposedly studied under Palpatine (during the time of Maul) but then betrayed him and had to flee? Then Lumiya, a nonsense cyborg, also magically becomes a powerful "Dark Lady of the Sith." When Vader destroyed the Sith and brought balance to the Force I don't think Lucas intended Palpatine to come back, followed by generations more of Sith. Doesn't look much like the Sith are destroyed to me. Doesn't look much like balance.

LordOfTheFish
02-16-2010, 01:35 PM
I kind of hope he dies. :raise:

Same here, I never liked him in the first place. I agree that he is far to powerfull/dangerous to be left alive.

Zerimar Nyliram
02-17-2010, 09:52 AM
All the talk of "True" Sith is retarded in my humble opinion. There's the lost tribe of the Sith, and Vergere supposedly studied under Palpatine (during the time of Maul) but then betrayed him and had to flee? Then Lumiya, a nonsense cyborg, also magically becomes a powerful "Dark Lady of the Sith." When Vader destroyed the Sith and brought balance to the Force I don't think Lucas intended Palpatine to come back, followed by generations more of Sith. Doesn't look much like the Sith are destroyed to me. Doesn't look much like balance.

You can think it retarded all you want, but it's true. And I'd hate to sound annoyed, but Vergere and Lumiya were not Sith, only self-proclaimed Sith. They were never ordained into the order as we see Palpatine ordaining Anakin in Revenge of the Sith, they were only given instruction in the ways of the dark side by the Sith. These do not break the Rule of Two, and this has been discussed to death for ages. Frankly, it's getting a little annoying now. I really wish people would do their homework.

You view of balance isn't quite right either. It's not the existence of the Sith per se that caused the imbalance, it was what they had been doing behind the scenes for a thousand years while the Jedi grew complacent thinking they were extinct. Anakin destroyed this line of Sith that was keeping the Force unbalanced. Once balance was attained, it did not make any difference if the Sith returned or not after that, whether it be Palpatine's reincarnated spirit in a clone body (which you can't blame the author for as it was written long before the prequels debuted; and George Lucas reportedly liked it very much at the time) or Darth Krayt's One Sith. The Force was now in balance. The action had been carried out.

Simply not liking something doesn't invalidate it. Quite frankly, I'm thankful that Lucas Film cares enough to take such measures to preserve the continuity of the Expanded Universe somewhat coherently rather than letting it remain a mess without much order. The Star Trek EU is a good example of the latter.

Lord Foley
02-18-2010, 01:21 PM
You can think it retarded all you want, but it's true. And I'd hate to sound annoyed, but Vergere and Lumiya were not Sith, only self-proclaimed Sith. They were never ordained into the order as we see Palpatine ordaining Anakin in Revenge of the Sith, they were only given instruction in the ways of the dark side by the Sith. These do not break the Rule of Two, and this has been discussed to death for ages. Frankly, it's getting a little annoying now. I really wish people would do their homework.

I'm sorry, but this argument doesn't even really address what I'm saying. You're saying these things are fine because of the in-universe explanation for them, and I'm saying they never should have been written because the in-universe explanations are contrived and retconny. The invent things like "true Sith" so that they can have as many "fake Sith" running around as they feel like inventing without breaking continuity. That's as distilled as contrived gets. Think about it- "There can only be two As, but we want more, so we make B, which is identical to A except in what it's called. Problem solved."

You view of balance isn't quite right either. It's not the existence of the Sith per se that caused the imbalance, it was what they had been doing behind the scenes for a thousand years while the Jedi grew complacent thinking they were extinct. Anakin destroyed this line of Sith that was keeping the Force unbalanced. Once balance was attained, it did not make any difference if the Sith returned or not after that, whether it be Palpatine's reincarnated spirit in a clone body (which you can't blame the author for as it was written long before the prequels debuted; and George Lucas reportedly liked it very much at the time) or Darth Krayt's One Sith. The Force was now in balance. The action had been carried out.

I don't presume to know what exactly balance means, however, the act of restoring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith is irreparably cheapened by stuff like a new Sith order, which has been in hiding, waiting to strike, that then lays waste to the galaxy and takes it over. Sounds familiar. After the movies, it's right back to same-old, same-old, as if Vader never did anything. Two Sith die, a million more take their place, like always.

Also, Lucas has stated in no uncertain terms that in his vision the emperor never comes back to life. And while he's said that the expanded universe is not his world and he doesn't exercise total control over it, there is way too much room in something like the Star Wars universe to be so uncreative as to keep having more Sith versus Jedi.

Simply not liking something doesn't invalidate it.
I don't like that they killed Chewbacca how they did. I don't like that they killed Anakin Solo so young. I would have done things completely differently. But New Jedi Order is still my favorite EU series, because it something novel, because it introduced some real philosophical problems for a universe with "the Force," because it had unorthodox characters who acted unexpectedly. It was the first time they ever really explored what was possible outside of Imperials/Sith versus Republic/Jedi.

I'm not criticizing ideas just because "I don't like them." I'm criticizing them because every time a "new" story or game is released, it's the same thing as before.

adamqd
02-18-2010, 01:43 PM
But I guess if you look at it from the perspective that this tribe was an offshoot of the Sith and had departed so far from traditional Sith doctrines that they would not be taken seriously by the "true" Sith (Bane's order), I guess it's not very serious.



They are direct descendants of Naga Sadows Sith, a Sith Order unbroken since the Dark Jedi Interbred with the Sith species (6900BBY-5000BBY as part of the Sith Empire, and 5000BBY-40+ABY on Kesh)... and to my Knowledge Darth bane (Circa 1000BBY) invented the Rule of Two. How are a previous order of Sith, who have no knowledge of Bane, Hundred Years Darkness, Sith Defeats at the hands of the Jedi etc, who do not follow this doctrine, break the Rule? I'm not arguing, I just don't see how they are subservient to Bane :) Maybe I have missed some literature hehe.

BTW I'm Talking in universe, obviously in GL's eyes the Sith Started in 1000BBY when the Republic did (lol@continuitybetweenfilmsGL)

Zerimar Nyliram
02-18-2010, 03:41 PM
I'm speaking in terms of Bane being the lone survivor when the Sith were completely wiped out, and his new order being a continuation of what was otherwise wiped out. I think the idea was that the Sith had been complete destroyed except for this one guy, who carried on with it in secret by means of the Rule of Two, and having other Sith sort of cheapens that.

That leads to into what I wanted to say to Lord Foley. Foley, I agree with you on the cheapening factor, I really do. There are so many directions that Star Wars has taken recently that I saw coming a mile away, and wished it hadn't. However, having all of these little technicalities within its rich fictional history adds an element of realism for me that makes me appreciate it despite its cheapness. In real-life history, we're constantly discovering all of these little avenues that shed a different light on things we thought we knew. It happens with both ancient history as well as what was very recent (research Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt and FDR, for example, and be blown away by just how inaccurate your previous perceptions of them were).

I'm sorry, but this argument doesn't even really address what I'm saying. You're saying these things are fine because of the in-universe explanation for them, and I'm saying they never should have been written because the in-universe explanations are contrived and retconny.

True, but you can't really say this of all of these instances. Some of these things, like Lumiya and Palpatine's resurrection, were written long before the prequels. How could these authors have known about things like the Rule of Two and the prophecy of the Chosen One before they even existed? Personally, I think it's admirable that Lucas Film has gone out of its way to come up with ways to work around it and keep these things canonical out of respect for both the writers and the stories themselves as classics. How often do you see that happen elsewhere? Not often.

As for what came after the movies, like Darth Caedus, Darth Krayt's One Sith, and various Sith splinter organizations: I agree with you wholeheartedly that they are cheap, stale, repetitive and predictable. (In fact, I once came up with an idea to bring the Sith back after the movies as well, and I knew that such an idea had all of these truths attached to it. But I had it set not so soon after the movie era and did my best to make it completely unlike anything we'd ever seen previously. But the Legacy was announced, and it was such a movie-era wannabe that it was painful: a new Empire, the Dark Lord of the Sith is the Emperor of the galaxy, et cetera.) However, these things add realism to the universe. I get the whole Sith-are-gone poetic justice thing, but what's to stop some other group from rising up and declaring themselves Sith? What's to stop two Sith Lords under the Rule of Two from bending it beyond recognition by jumping through any loophole they possibly can? Things like this happen in real life all the time (well, not with Sith, but you know what I mean), and so it adds another level of veneration for the franchise for me. There are conflicting stories, inconsistencies, multiple accounts, and all that stuff. It sort of makes me feel like I'm reading a combination of Greek mythology, history and politics. It adds a whole new level of appeal despite being largely cheap in many ways.

Raz Agul
03-22-2010, 11:45 AM
Yeah, the name "Starkiller" is kinda dumb and kiddish if you ask me! I think we should refer to him as Galen or the Apprentice. It would just be stupid if he died at the end of this game too, because they will probably make a third, and if he comes back to life AGAIN in the third, it would just be another reason not to play it. I sure hope this one has a logical explination of how he is suddenly alive again. I hope it isn't some sort of dumb reserection. I still look forward to this game though!

I read somewhere that starkiller was originally going to be lukes last name!

Kurgan
03-23-2010, 01:26 PM
That's right. In Lucas' early scripts for Star Wars back in the 70's, it was Luke Starkiller. In the earliest scripts where the name appears, "the Starkiller" was a wise old man who had a bunch of sons that he trained as Jedi warriors.

The game just took and recycled the name into a new character.

HockeyGoalie35
04-14-2010, 06:48 PM
yea, i heard about that too^
that wouldn't make sense if it cae to be because starkiller is sort of a dark, Sithy name

Kurgan
04-15-2010, 12:55 PM
Why, because they used it as a "bad guy protagonist"'s name in this game?

Or because it's been 33+ years since it was invented and you have certain preconceptions about names in the universe?

Because it has "killer" in the name?

What kind of a name is "Biggs DARKlighter"?

If he were a Sith, as we all know, he'd have "DARTH' in his name (according to the new rules Lucas made up in the mid 1990's).

Think about it though...

Darth Skywalker
Darth Calrissian
Darth Organa
Darth Solo

Doesn't make a real difference, does it?

Anyhow, it isn't a big deal. The names switch all over the place. I mean, the "Dianongahs" were at one time a name for a group of people (even good guys too if memory serves), not garbage eating tentacle monsters. Even General Vader was just an ordinary official (like General Veers) before he was turned into a Sith Lord. Prince Valorum was a Sith Lord, and then, 20 odd years later was turned into an ordinary politician (though the original character sketch of Valorum eventually became Palpatine the Emperor).

Zwier Zak
04-16-2010, 06:09 PM
Same here, I never liked him in the first place. I agree that he is far to powerfull/dangerous to be left alive.

Look at us sith talking. :thmbup1: