PDA

View Full Version : A Kreia theory (Spoiler heavy)


Blix
01-27-2010, 09:50 PM
I've recently been playing TSL again and have more or less been hanging onto her every word, as well as analyzing her character. My findings are:

Speculative Identity:
After listening to her lessons and hearing the tale of her "former" role, I have speculated that Kreia is not really Kreia at all she may very well be Arren Kae indeed, as all signs in-game point to Kae and Kreia as being Revan's first and last teacher (Chris Avellone neither confirmed nor denied this but commended the guess as being a "good catch") and Kreia herself stated that Revan came to her before and after which coincides with what Disciple said about Kae having been Revan's mentor.

Speculative Past:
Given what we know about Kreia and her revealed past as Darth Traya, the Lord of Betrayal we can assume that a some point in her past she was betrayed, but not by just anyone in particular but by someone close to her (not Sion or Nihilus since she was on the path to betrayal prior to forming the triumverate) someone who was very dear to her like a lover, so that their betrayal would greatly stir her and begin to change her personality into "Kreia", and would plant the seeds for her path as the Lord of Betrayal.

Assumption; Kreia is not Kreia:
Like I stated earlier it is highly suggested that Kreia is Arren Kae (light side/Jedi) and she was Darth Traya (dark side/Sith) but her other name, Kreia (gray side/neutral) is who we are introduced to at the beginning is merely an alias or title like her Sith name. I believe that Kreia used this name as a way of distancing herself from the light and the dark and as another means to continue her role as betrayer, the Sith knew her as Traya and the Jedi most likely knew her as Arren Kae (further suggested by the fact that the Masters referrered to her not as Kreia but as 'you!' implying that she was someone prominent from the past [i.e. as being exiled for "corrupting" Revan]).

Interest in the Exile:
I belive that Kreia's combined contempt for the Jedi and Sith stems from her tragic past, in her eyes the Jedi had failed her for their lack of vision, and the Sith had failed her for their mindless savagery.
I believe that Kreia was disgusted with the force, not only for the effect it had on its users but lasting detriment it would have on herself.
The Exile, as Kreia saw her was a walking wound, "the death of the force" which fit her plan perfectly. Kreia's ultimate plan was most likely to bring about the end of the force, or at ths very least damage it severly. If that plan should fail, then Kreia forsaw a probable heir to the line of betrayal in the Exile, and would use her as a replacement to keep the cycle going. If the Exile proved to be pure and uncorruptable, then Kreia would prophesize that eventually a new betrayer would emerge from the shadows, like Sidious and Caedus after him (though Caedus "could" be more closer to Revan's idealogy).

Her End:
I believe that Kreia was unhappy with her life and the addiction of the force and the dereliction of life weighing down upon her and surrounding her she had no choice but to permanently cut off her connections to these things, thus ending her role as betrayer and ending her suffering at the hands of betrayers (Jedi & Sith).
I think if she really believed one could "kill the force" that something as damaging and detrimental as an echo or many echoes would be needed. Kreia wanted to die, not become one with the force but true death as in "oblivion", and conditioning the Exile to do that was necessary as no one else in the galaxy was fit to do so (neither sith or jedi) she needed something beyond light and dark a "wound" which would enable Kreia's plans to come to fruition and again, required the Exile to do that.
In the end as she fought her former student she was still "Kreia" albeit her Traya moniker, it could be viewed as a weak-willed woman (giving into the force despite her hate for it) saw no shame in dying a Sith's death at the hands of a Jedi/Gray Jedi (similar to Kaname Tousen's Bleach).

Ghost
01-27-2010, 10:42 PM
hmm, good theory, but this should have been in Telos Tourist Bureau. Overall, i like it. But in my opinion, Kriea is just pretty much an old hag who can't make up her mind :dev7:

Rabish Bini
01-27-2010, 10:47 PM
Haven't we already gone over the whole Kreia = Arren Kae thing. I could've sworn there was a massive thread about it...

Blix
01-27-2010, 10:55 PM
hmm, good theory, but this should have been in Telos Tourist Bureau. Overall, i like it. But in my opinion, Kriea is just pretty much an old hag who can't make up her mind :dev7:

Oh she's made up her mind and is quite eloquent about it too; everyone else is blind while she has the sight. :D

Haven't we already gone over the whole Kreia = Arren Kae thing. I could've sworn there was a massive thread about it...

Yes (there have been a few to my knowledge) but it is much more than decrypting her identity, it's an deciphering of her persona as a whole and a dissection of her ideals and belief system.

Ghost
01-27-2010, 11:13 PM
Haven't we already gone over the whole Kreia = Arren Kae thing?

Yes, plenty of threads have been made, but this summary pretty much adds it all up

it is much more than decrypting her identity, it's an deciphering of her persona as a whole and a dissection of her ideals and belief system

this.

Darth Avlectus
01-27-2010, 11:14 PM
Haven't we already gone over the whole Kreia = Arren Kae thing. I could've sworn there was a massive thread about it...

Yes several times. And I do believe Michal the Disciple knew of it the whole time.

Also I do think she felt betrayed by Revan b/c Revan killed Arren Kae's lover and Briana's father. --Unless I am mistaken?

In fact, here is one of the largest congregations of subscribers to this theory. This might be revealed in TOR but I doubt it.

Ghost
01-27-2010, 11:21 PM
This might be revealed in TOR but I doubt it.

probably not, few knew about Kreia, as she was exiled from the order. Arren Kae was the same, and the Jedi don't like to talk about their failures

Blix
01-27-2010, 11:47 PM
"like all Jedi you hear but you do not listen" - Kreia

I took that to heart during my new play through took the analyst's route to uncover the "real" Kreia, I paid special attention to what she said and whatever advice she offered and what others said about her. What I found out, in short the woman is a paradox; a walking contradiction. Ever catch onto the subtle clues she drops, she wanted to be found out and wanted the exile to know that her big bad was also a traveling companion, she allows Exile to ask about the Betrayer when asked about the Sith threat, (but you have to watch for it because you can only ask about her once) yet she also claims that her identity cannot be revealed yet, because then the war will be over before it even begins.

If Kreia was Arren Kae, then perhaps it was she who betrayed first instead of being betrayed. What's more, perhaps Revan corrupted her and not the other way around and in her corruption she allowed Revan to exterminate her lover - Yusanis, knowing him to be a threat to the greater good.

Darth InSidious
01-28-2010, 12:29 AM
Kreia, like Atris and the other Sith Lords is a corrupted emanation of the Exile, who is, in fact, Albion. And may or may not be without between and behind the third and fourth regions of the second mystery. QED.

Brin_Londo5
01-28-2010, 02:08 AM
*sigh*
Not THIS again.

People, not everyone in Lucasland is related to everyone else.

Krea is Krea's name.
Arren Kae was a different Jedi.

Her hair is silver due to old age, not due to her being Echani (which has NOT been established), otherwise *everyone* around them would have commented on a physical resemblance between Krea and Brianna the Handmaiden.

This isn't even grasping at straws, this is grasping at smoke.

Blix
01-28-2010, 02:49 AM
*sigh*
Not THIS again.

People, not everyone in Lucasland is related to everyone else.

"You look, yet you do not see"

Actually reading my theory would indicate that speculation on Arren/Kreia being the same person is only a splinter of the topic itself, and the majority concerning her past and "true motives" during the game. Perhaps Kreia is Arren and perhaps she is as you put it; "krea is krea's name" which is why I stated it as speculative not fact, and I think it is extremely ignorant to toss aside all clues and what little facts we have in exchange for a simpler answer.

Arren Kae was a different Jedi

you are stating that as "fact", which until LA/LF makes an official statement concerning the two it can be read either way.

Her hair is silver due to old age, not due to her being Echani (which has NOT been established), otherwise *everyone* around them would have commented on a physical resemblance between Krea and Brianna the Handmaiden.

I don't recall stating that, but okay - let's suppose Brianna honors the face of her mother (which was said in-game IIRC) then who is to say Kae was her mother at all? Nowhere was it stated that Yusanis only had one lover, he obviously had at least two (since Brianna is different from the other sisters), who's to say that he didn't have a mistress or two on the side? If he WAS involved with Kreia (assuming she was Kae) then her learning of his infidelity would be more than enough reason for her to despise Yusanis (& Brianna for being a reminder of his betrayal) which would most likely open way for her approving Revan's assassination of Yusanis, if he even needed her approval (if only out of respect for his mentor) at all. Also being a corrupt politician opens many doors to the underworld and the deadly sins, specifically carnal desires (i.e prostitution, concubines, etc.)

This isn't even grasping at straws, this is grasping at smoke.

Oh? well I am not sure what to make of this comment, it sounds like you're saying that we don't know what we're talking about, well if you know something that we don't then please by all means offer some constructive input to enlighten us :)

Ghost
01-28-2010, 05:52 PM
Hmm, idk. because If Kreia was Arren, then how did she train Revan when Arren was killed at Malachor? According to records, Kreia was around before Arren "died". Still, an interesting possibility. Or maybe Arren trained Revan

Blix
01-28-2010, 07:05 PM
Hmm, idk. because If Kreia was Arren, then how did she train Revan when Arren was killed at Malachor? According to records, Kreia was around before Arren "died". Still, an interesting possibility. Or maybe Arren trained Revan

Ah a good point, I think it could be more-or-less apart of her M.O. as the "Betrayer", I think that originally there never was Arren & Kreia but both being one in the same; Kreia "could" have told the Exile all of 'her' dirty little secrets up front, but I think she confessed her secret past (I don't think anyone outside of the council knew about the Yusanis relationship AFAIK) to the Exile through Kae as apart of her ideal of redemption/atonement. Again Arren and Kreia "could" have just been very close friends who both just so happened to be his first and last teacher (both sharing Revan as a padawan), that if ever proven true would be a genuine example of a "true coincedence".

Ping
01-28-2010, 08:18 PM
Brin_Londo5 does have a point, though. Fact is, it has never been confirmed nor denied that Kreia is Arren Kae. Is it possible that she is? Yes. Does that mean we can assume she is Arren Kae? No, not until we get an official confirmation.

Ghost
01-28-2010, 08:30 PM
Well, not a lot is known about Arren Kae nor Kreia's past. If Arren was a historian, like Kreia was, that would shoot off assumptions. Apparently they were both Revan's first and last master, so that would probably be a good thought

Darth Avlectus
01-28-2010, 09:21 PM
I'm open to the possibility she is just like I'm open to the possibility that she isn't Arren Kae.

Disciple said Revan's first instructor was Arren Kae.

Revan had many masters and Kreia did not say if she was his first.

Still, the cryptic hints offered throughout the game sort of leads one to wonder if Arren Kae and Kreia aren't the same person. Her role sticking with you and then becoming Darth Traya mirrors that of Revan in the first game.

*sigh*
People, not everyone in Lucasland is related to everyone else.
Nobody said they were...:confused:

Krea is Krea's name.
Arren Kae was a different Jedi.
That's fine--your sources, please?

Her hair is silver due to old age, not due to her being Echani (which has NOT been established), otherwise *everyone* around them would have commented on a physical resemblance between Krea and Brianna the Handmaiden.

I thought the Brianna's mother was human, and the FATHER (Yusanis) was the Echani? :raise:


"You look, yet you do not see"

Actually reading my theory would indicate that speculation on Arren/Kreia being the same person is only a splinter of the topic itself, and the majority concerning her past and "true motives" during the game. Perhaps Kreia is Arren and perhaps she is as you put it; "krea is krea's name" which is why I stated it as speculative not fact, and I think it is extremely ignorant to toss aside all clues and what little facts we have in exchange for a simpler answer.

You know, I had not considered it was Revan who corrupted her and that she may have betrayed herself. Though this does not consider she may have already been precariously close to turning to the dark side anyways and that THIS may have been a reason for why the council blamed her--maybe Revan was the last straw (in more ways than one).


I don't recall stating that, but okay - let's suppose Brianna honors the face of her mother (which was said in-game IIRC) then who is to say Kae was her mother at all?

Once you've maxed out her influence and trained her as a Jedi Guardian you get the jedi white robe of Arren Kae in the game. Wearing now, Arren Kae's robe, she says it was her mother's and that it is all of her mother that she has. Nobody said Kae was her mother, but I think the evidence speaks for itself.

However, nobody has established Kae is necessarily Kreia. :rolleyes:

Nowhere was it stated that Yusanis only had one lover, he obviously had at least two (since Brianna is different from the other sisters), who's to say that he didn't have a mistress or two on the side? If he WAS involved with Kreia (assuming she was Kae) then her learning of his infidelity would be more than enough reason for her to despise Yusanis (& Brianna for being a reminder of his betrayal) which would most likely open way for her approving Revan's assassination of Yusanis, if he even needed her approval (if only out of respect for his mentor) at all. Also being a corrupt politician opens many doors to the underworld and the deadly sins, specifically carnal desires (i.e prostitution, concubines, etc.)

Hahaha.

Oh? well I am not sure what to make of this comment, it sounds like you're saying that we don't know what we're talking about, well if you know something that we don't then please by all means offer some constructive input to enlighten us :)
No condescention here at all, BUT... I will add to the above:
Where is a SOURCE that explicitly has it in canon that Arren Kae and Kreia AREN'T the same person? If you have a source and you know something we don't, then please do enlighten us. Otherwise...you're just a guilty as us of stating opinion as fact.

Ghost
01-28-2010, 09:41 PM
you are good at summing things up GTA

Anyway, I read Wookiepedia, it seems Obsidian is keeping it quiet if Arren is or isn't Kreia. Chris Avellone quoted this:

Can’t comment, but good catch. Sorry

This obviously means something, and they are just hiding it. I can smell it

Kreia does have some sort of relationship with Arren Kae, that much is true, but we have to wait and see if she IS Kae

deathdisco
01-28-2010, 10:45 PM
you are good at summing things up GTA

Anyway, I read Wookiepedia, it seems Obsidian is keeping it quiet if Arren is or isn't Kreia. Chris Avellone quoted this:



This obviously means something, and they are just hiding it. I can smell it

Kreia does have some sort of relationship with Arren Kae, that much is true, but we have to wait and see if she IS Kae

Regardless of Avellone's intent, Lucasarts unfortunately has the final say. That's why he can't say anything definitive but that pretty much confirms his POV. Which is good enough for me since it's his story.

Blix
01-28-2010, 11:10 PM
@GTA:SWcity,
I messed up on my rebuttle about Brianna/Kreia, I meant to include that no one on the ship (save the Exile, maybe) has clearly seen Kreia's face (with it always being covered up by a hood and all) and without having seen Kreia (holographic pictures, etc) in her youth it is hard to say 'if' Brianna does resemble her (assuming she is Kae :)) so the crew would not even know to put two and two together, but you more or less covered that one. Also on a side-note: I believe all you need(ed) to do is request that she put on some clothes after sparring with her (this was an easy to exploit duplication = money trick). I still think there's a possibility Yusanis was a sleaze, he may not have had multiple lovers at the same time (but Brianna's sisters' remarks and general hostility seem to support the idea that he did at least with Kae), but he could simply knocked Arren up and abandoned her with the kid (darkside single mom of one :p) which is a pretty despicable act on its own, probably enough to promote a DS turn.

I have entertained the notion that she may have already been walking the dark path by the time of her exile, I just speculated maybe that Revan's charisma may have influenced her fall, but is more likely due to Sith holocrons (maybe) see Atris?

I must admit that I am just as guilty as anyone else pondering the seeming infinite "what ifs" of SW/EU canon. I apologize if my wording was construed as "fact", this is all merely (in Kreia's words:) "What-ifs", and "perhaps" and should not be taken as big "T" truth until Lucasarts/Lucasfilm says otherwise, that or until Chris Avellone or Mr. Chee decide to throw inquistive fans a bone after five years of theorizing >:(
But I do agree with JonathanMKII; if the two aren't the same what's so difficult about posting a blog saying they were different individuals? All he has to do is confirm or deny (with LF's blessing of course) since he hasn't it could mean a number of things, possibly (hopefully) a novel fleshing out Kreia's backstory and it's just that Mr. Avellone doesn't want to spoil it for the readers (fingers crossed!) :)

Ghost
01-28-2010, 11:27 PM
This(click me) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDVCHKeM1Uk) pretty much backs up Blix's theory. It adds dialogue from the game and has some cut content.

Watch it, it will enlighten you

Blix
01-28-2010, 11:45 PM
This(click me) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDVCHKeM1Uk) pretty much backs up Blix's theory. It adds dialogue from the game and has some cut content.

Watch it, it will enlighten you

Nice find MKII :) I take it that the bit where Atris exclaims, "Kreia? That is not her name!" is cut content. Very nice find indeed it puts everything into perspective, much so when you see everyone's responses overlap like that. As I suspected I am strongly inclined to believe that "Master Kae's death" was nothing more than an allusion, maybe Kreia needed her past self to die or at least needed everyone to believe that so she could exist as Kreia, to seek her revenge on both Sith & Jedi through the Exile.

Ghost
01-29-2010, 12:14 AM
why thank you :D

Oh, and i also found another video(click me) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MXXjX1TeIk&feature=related) which is in TSL's cut content. It hold lines in which Kreia talks to Atris, and it gets pretty deep. This also is pretty explanitory

EDIT: Atris is kind of like "Kreia" or Arren would be as a historian in this vid

Darth Avlectus
01-29-2010, 12:34 AM
Well, I hate to ruin it, but the canonecity is not officially confirmed for cut content (except M4-78), so it is an allusion at best and little else I'm afraid. (Though to be real, it *would* have been canon if LA hadn't been such greedy b@$t@rds.)

@ Blix, hey I was actually just going through the motions, nothing huge. And reinforcing what you were saying to that 'grasping smoke' comment.

Yusanis being an adulterer eh? Yeah, I'd never considered that but damn...that sure sounds plausible. It certainly adds quite a bit of context and validity as to why she had such a distaste towards exile finding a love mate (male to Brianna or female to Atton). She was a bitter old hag and now we have a why to go with it...

This is interesting how minds and theories work with evidence. :dev9:

Ghost
01-29-2010, 12:38 AM
Well, I hate to ruin it, but the canonecity is not officially confirmed for cut content (except M4-78), so it is an allusion at best and little else I'm afraid. (Though to be real, it *would* have been canon if LA hadn't been such greedy b@$t@rds.)

word.

Jae Onasi
01-29-2010, 02:40 AM
Moved to Telos Tourist Bureau

Blix
01-29-2010, 07:31 PM
FYI - (and so I don't need to create another topic :D) I think anyone with an important connection to Kreia should also be dissected...erm I mean discussed here since relevant information from a different POV can add new depths to an investigation :)

Edit for earlier post: @GTA:SWcity I think only one or two scenes from that first video were cut from TSL, the rest IIRC just happened randomly in-between planet traveling and depending whether Exile is male or female so a lot of it actually holds up (you probably knew that though :))

Here's something that I think everyone will agree is relevant: the Echani Handmaiden sisters (Brianna included), how did they wind up on a desserted ice rock?
So in light of those re-reads I guess I'm going to have to retract what I said about Yusanis, and maybe he wasn't actually such a big sleazeball (or at least not on the same scope as Sunry :p). So Yusanis really did love Kae and even followed her into battle at Malachor V, where she supposedly died. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that by this point the sisters where orphans unless Yusanis' wife/Handmaiden sister's mother was still alive (odd that the game never makes any mention of her). My guess is that Atris (and maybe some other Jedi) ventured out after the Mandalorian Wars to help refugees find homes and deal with any remaining Mercs hanging around. I take it then that Atris kept them around in secret (since none of them were trained in the force by the beginning of TSL), and must have already claimed that polar plataeu for herself as far back as the Exile's hearing and was probably planning for a Sith invasion in secret (the surviving council members were surprised that she was alive, of course more relevant to the Katarr massacre i guess). Let's face it: this broad was already walking on the dark side during Exile's trial, which surprises me that none of the council members mentioned this or at least showed suspicion for a fellow high-council member on the dark side (especially Mr. "all too familiar path" Asner Jedi :))

Ghost
01-29-2010, 07:48 PM
Hmm. But ingame the handmaiden says

Father wanted to be with the one he loved, but he was not loyal. I was the mark of his disloyalty

This obviously means he had an affair, so that means that the Sisters are Yusanis' offspring. But there are so many of them.

Blix
01-29-2010, 08:10 PM
Hmm. But ingame the handmaiden says



This obviously means he had an affair, so that means that the Sisters are Yusanis' offspring. But there are so many of them.

That is kind of what I figured to begin with, but what I am curious to know is whether Brianna's stepmother (Yusanis' wife) was even alive. You have to figure that the Jedi separate younglings from their family because of the strong influence, but none of the Echani Handmaidens were Jedi (save for one force-sensitive half-sister) so why would they need to serve Atris if not for Jedi training or loss of a home... unless they were really commited to her for some reason - like a follower to a savior which IIRC is 'not' the sort of feelings a Jedi is supposed to inspire (more darkside) which in Atris' case she was being doted on like royalty, and gave up the sister's names for the simple title of "handmaiden". Kreia had it right when she reffered to them all simply as "servants of Atris", who is a Jedi, who are supposed to live to serve and protect the weak not be served (even more darkside).

Telos Academy, it should have been called "Atris' palace" :p.

Ghost
01-29-2010, 08:46 PM
Hmm. Me is suspecting that Atris was the mother of the sisters. She is very secretive, and somehow she "fell" to the Dark Side. Because, why would they serve her? Also, Atris looks like and Echani, so I think that she is the step-mother

Blix
01-29-2010, 09:24 PM
Hmm. Me is suspecting that Atris was the mother of the sisters. She is very secretive, and somehow she "fell" to the Dark Side. Because, why would they serve her? Also, Atris looks like and Echani, so I think that she is the step-mother

There have been rumors about Atris being Echani (though not as popular as the Arren Kae/Kreia theory). Personally I think she just resembles an off-Echani variation, she seems more like a human (and is credited as one on SW-DB iirc) and most importantly she does not seem to uphold (at least not personally) the beliefs and the ways of the Echani people. She also seemed too inquistive and talkative (note handmaiden sisters) and shows no desire to learn an opponent (the Exile) through combat, save for their one and only battle where she tried to kill her instead of read her. Also note at how disgusted she was for the actions of Revan during the Mandalorian Wars, where as Brianna (not unlike the Mandalorians) showed she was impressed by Revan's victory over her father Yusanis, and merely wished she could have seen the battle (stark contrast).

Maybe Atris had a weird fetish for white hair and assimilated the sisters into her 'entourage' to look cool (joking of course) :)

Ghost
01-30-2010, 12:53 AM
or she just beat them up and forced them to serve her :dev7:. But I would say that she was Yusanis' second spouse