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jonathan7
01-28-2010, 06:44 AM
Times Article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7003715.ece)

Is it just me, or does contacting potential Aliens which we know nothing about seem like a monumentally stupid idea? The arrogance of these scientists greatly annoys me; personally, I'd say you have to err on the side of caution, given that if any extra-terrestrial life forms have figuered out how to get from point a to point b in the universe; wiping out us, would be comparatively a piece of cake.

Of course personally, I think there may well be life out there (statistically it would seem monumentally long), but I think we are the most intelligent lifeform in the universe. Howevewr, if I'm proven wrong, I'd rather not have ET calling by earth; the only place where humanity currently resides.

Totenkopf
01-28-2010, 07:36 AM
Well, we're certainly the most intelligent (more's the pity, I suppose) lifeform in the universe we're aware of currently. But, as long as we're restricted to this planet I'd agree we should be more reticent about reaching out to others who's intentions we've no clue about at all.

jawathehutt
01-28-2010, 10:09 AM
If a cat meows at you, do you grab your BFG and atomize it? If aliens are as sophisticated as you claim, wouldn't they probably 1. Already know where we are or at least have some suspicion, its not like we're a very quiet planet. And 2. Not really care that much. What threat do we pose to them, probably none. Or maybe they're also stuck on their first planet with less/not much more technology and we'll be like intergalactic penpals.

mur'phon
01-28-2010, 11:24 AM
And maybe Dodos thought the same way before calling out to some nearby humans :)

jonathan7
01-28-2010, 11:36 AM
If a cat meows at you, do you grab your BFG and atomize it? If aliens are as sophisticated as you claim, wouldn't they probably 1. Already know where we are or at least have some suspicion, its not like we're a very quiet planet. And 2. Not really care that much. What threat do we pose to them, probably none. Or maybe they're also stuck on their first planet with less/not much more technology and we'll be like intergalactic penpals.

This to be franks seems foolish, you make a number of assumptions about how Aliens are going to be, now I'm not saying they are going to be hostile. But I don't think we should assume anything of their intentions, and because we can't know what any potential aliens will be like erring on the side of caution is the logical choice.

Furthermore I have to wonder how "aliens are as sophisticated as you claim" - I don't actually claim any level of sophistication for any said Alien life forms; I merely point out if they have somehow managed to figuer out how to travel monumental distances in space their technology will be fair beyond our own. Personally I would be highly sceptical that there are advanced life-forms like us out there, but we shall see.. I do think there may well be more life out there, given the odds of their not must by statistically very long; but I don't personally think they will be more advanced than us.

mimartin
01-28-2010, 12:08 PM
If a cat meows at you, do you grab your BFG and atomize it? Wait, who has been talking around here? :xp:


There are a thousand things I worry about everyday scientist trying to phone ET is not even on the list.

If they do make contact with an intelligent species, then my biggest fear would not be from that species, but from my fellow man. I just don’t know how mankind would handle knowing that he was not alone in the universe. I also don’t know how many of us would handle the religious ramifications of such a discovery.

That said, I still like the idea that someone is trying to find those answers if for no other reason than my own selfish desire to know if we are really alone.

Qui-Gon Glenn
01-28-2010, 12:16 PM
I tend to see this on both sides of the fence.

The arrogance of these scientists greatly annoys meAgreed.

I fail to see the point in reaching out in such a way, as it only invites possibly bad results, such as the invading chihuahua loving Martians.

If there is intelligent life outside of our planet, which as has been noted seems statistically and logically probable, it is going to be in degrees relative to ours, higher and lower, as a result of the length of their societies development... I think if any planet has intelligent life that is able to get over regional difference and cultural bias and truly go global could make quantum advances in a remarkably short amount of time. Tough task though, some may say impossible.

A culture capable of incredible technology... has to be a result of incredible intelligence coupled with incredible cooperation... cooperative intelligence that is non-Borg must be somewhat friendly... friendly beings don't vaporize civilizations to rape raw materials...

Just a linear thought chain, not something that I would propose as an argument, but reflective perhaps of my belief.

EDIT: I also don’t know how many of us would handle the religious ramifications of such a discovery.That is a large question... would be an earth-shaker for many. Perhaps part of that fuels the search. "Our" reaction would be, well, fascinating. My own reaction I think I can envision quite easily, and I wonder how nearly it would jive with the powers-that-is' view?

machievelli
01-28-2010, 02:38 PM
I tend to see this on both sides of the fence.

Agreed.

I fail to see the point in reaching out in such a way, as it only invites possibly bad results, such as the invading chihuahua loving Martians.

If there is intelligent life outside of our planet, which as has been noted seems statistically and logically probable, it is going to be in degrees relative to ours, higher and lower, as a result of the length of their societies development... I think if any planet has intelligent life that is able to get over regional difference and cultural bias and truly go global could make quantum advances in a remarkably short amount of time. Tough task though, some may say impossible.

A culture capable of incredible technology... has to be a result of incredible intelligence coupled with incredible cooperation... cooperative intelligence that is non-Borg must be somewhat friendly... friendly beings don't vaporize civilizations to rape raw materials...

Just a linear thought chain, not something that I would propose as an argument, but reflective perhaps of my belief.

EDIT: That is a large question... would be an earth-shaker for many. Perhaps part of that fuels the search. "Our" reaction would be, well, fascinating. My own reaction I think I can envision quite easily, and I wonder how nearly it would jive with the powers-that-is' view?

Since they have been sending messages at the stars for about 30 odd years, it's too late to worry about it, if there is anyone out there listening, they are already on the way or ignoring us.

As for the religious ramifications, I remember a 70s era cartoon in Playboy where a cow, a sheep, a horse and a dog are all thinking 'god' made them in his image. My religion does not teach that my version of god is the be all and end all, if someone like that is in charge of any such contacts, I expect the world to be in a heap of trouble.

JediRevan1
01-28-2010, 05:24 PM
If extraterrestrials have discovered Earth and are intelligent, they have seen what mankind has done not only to the Earth but to each other as well. If they have seen this, they have deemed this planet not worth visiting due to the violence, racism, and hatred shown by mankind to each other. I forgot to add that proof has been established that the Earth was visited by extraterrestrials millenia ago. There are cave drawings in Europe, Africa, Australia, and Asia that show their visits. How else can you explain the pyramids and the Aztec and Mayan temples?

Blix
01-28-2010, 06:12 PM
Times Article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7003715.ece)

Is it just me, or does contacting potential Aliens which we know nothing about seem like a monumentally stupid idea?


Somewhere out there a bat is flying upside-down with a monumental headache :D

mur'phon
01-28-2010, 06:15 PM
Why the heck would the pyramids be evidence of extraterrestrials?

A culture capable of incredible technology... has to be a result of incredible intelligence coupled with incredible cooperation... cooperative intelligence that is non-Borg must be somewhat friendly... friendly beings don't vaporize civilizations to rape raw materials...

I don't see why cooperation is neccesary, having multiple nations competing can be a nice way to fuel innovation.

Oh, and like mim I worry about aliens about as much as I worry about being killed by squirrels.

Darth Avlectus
01-28-2010, 07:42 PM
I sometimes wonder if there isn't another partition in this universe for the creator's...shall we call it "team".

I don't really assume the extra terrestrial are necessarily friendly or malevolent, though I do agree attracting external attention just for the sake of it is rather foolhardy.

Err on the side of caution. :parrot:

IIRC Nikola Tesla actually tried to "contact the gods" at his Wardenclyffe labs. (Personally I really think he was closer to triggering the electrical breakdown of our entire atmosphere and igniting the earth into another sun!)

I have seen those reports of crop circles, and while many of them are frauds, some havd reports of folded grass/plant/etc/ in just such a way that it was not harmed. I don't know of conventional means to do that at least. Not saying it was necessarily extra terrestrial, though. Leading me to

Also, Egyptian pyramids and mummies: I've seen them documented where some humanoids had an elongated skull. There is still a lot here we don't know. Perhaps watchmen of an ancient civilization still exist elsewhere?
There is a ton of mysteries from the past relating here we don't know.

Another thing: Heaven Sky, Hell fire brimstone underground... Heaven off the planet, hell at the center of earth maybe? Doesn't seem like a far stretch. I am open to the possibility none of this necessarily contradicts religion--just maybe religion tells the story from a certain point of view? ...Just saying... Maybe we just don't understand jack squat?

If these beings are less intelligent, then I don't see how it matters.
If these beings are just as intelligent (if not even more so), then for all we know there may be some amongst us and nobody realizes it.
If absolutely more intelligent, we may never know...


*Awaiting the bombardment from my fellow forumites*

All I am getting at here is it's really just one more variable.

mimartin
01-28-2010, 08:05 PM
Err on the side of caution. :parrot:If mankind were to error on the side of caution we would still be living in caves eating parrots.

We never would have walked on the moon.

Split the atom (oh wait).

jonathan7
01-28-2010, 08:17 PM
Just an observation here; It's funny how people's own opinions seem to be imprinted onto Aliens. So first of all there seems to be thinking that aliens will use "logic" or think in a similar style to us. However personally I think if aliens exsist they will be so different from us, anything we can think of currently doesn't get close to them.

If extraterrestrials have discovered Earth and are intelligent, they have seen what mankind has done not only to the Earth but to each other as well. If they have seen this, they have deemed this planet not worth visiting due to the violence, racism, and hatred shown by mankind to each other.

Again, I'd say t his - It's funny how people's own opinions seem to be imprinted onto Aliens; you have your own view of mankind, and as such strangely Aliens have the same view? Presuming the Aliens think that way, perhaps the Aliens would revere violence as survival of the fittest, perhaps they are pacifists, perhaps they think and feel things we could never comprehend. That is all to say that how on earth do you know the aliens think the above? Apart from the fact, that's what you think.

I forgot to add that proof has been established that the Earth was visited by extraterrestrials millenia ago. There are cave drawings in Europe, Africa, Australia, and Asia that show their visits. How else can you explain the pyramids and the Aztec and Mayan temples?

You what? Please submit any of this evidence here please; and as unbiased as possible please. Furthermore I don't see what Pyramids, which are considerably different in structure really show? Aside from perhaps man had seen similar and copied, or man was thinking along similar lines. Unless of course the wheel is also apparent proof of extra-terrestrial life. To be very honest, all we know of astro-physics currently makes me think that space travel would be impossible given the distances involved.

Why the heck would the pyramids be evidence of extraterrestrials?

QFE

Oh, and like mim I worry about aliens about as much as I worry about being killed by squirrels.

I'm not really worried about it, but broadcasting signals into space, seems about as wise to me as running around in a pitch dark forest singing; sure there could be a nice furry animal who's friendly alternatively you may run into a grizzly...

Ghost
01-28-2010, 08:48 PM
Of course other planets would contain life, and maybe intelligent life. But we may not be the most intelligent life form in the universe. There is much more out there than we can comprehend. Many people say they have seen or have been abducted by aliens for years. In fact on History Channel they have this UFO chaser show, but idk, i bet its fake

Darth Avlectus
01-28-2010, 08:48 PM
If mankind were to error on the side of caution we would still be living in caves eating parrots.
WHAT?! I object! I'd be eating coyotes! :mad:
We never would have walked on the moon.
It was all a fabrication done by the U.S. government!!! Those were faked videos. :carms:
Split the atom (oh wait).
Umm, heh-heheh-heh. I split atoms in my own special way after I eat chili. heheh-heh-heh. [/Beavis]

Ghost
01-28-2010, 08:58 PM
If mankind were to error on the side of caution we would still be living in caves eating parrots.

:barf2:

Split the atom (oh wait).

Of course! If we had not split the atom, then our defenses would be surely weak, and we would have not won ww2! Then we would be wiped out with little to no defense against aliens. Unless we did it Will Smith style from Independance Day. But then again, they used a nuke as well

Tommycat
01-28-2010, 09:04 PM
I don't mind us calling out to them, I just don't think we should be making telemarketing calls during dinner. I mean we're advertising a healthy planet with scores of resources, an ample slave population and food supply(IT'S A COOK BOOK!!!). Ya know even if the majority of life out there are good and nice, think about it, if we're just shouting in all directions, chances are we're gonna hit the bad aliens first. Why, you ask? because they would be the ones to have expanded and spread their empire the furthest, thereby increasing the chances of hearing our dinner bell.

Of course it's entirely possible they already know we're here and just think it's best NOT to play with the crazies.

Darth Avlectus
01-28-2010, 11:51 PM
Or they simply have integrated with us already and most of us are unaware. :xp:

Regarding Egypt and pyramids:
The only thing about the pyramids is that we simply don't know all their secrets. Aren't there amphitheaters even modern technology can't replicate? Or how did the tens to hundreds of tons of solid mass come to be shaped and built into these structures without any equipment?

I seriously doubt people ALONE could have done it THAT well made or THAT big--sure we have "evidence" claiming that they did but honestly there are too many pieces missing and any conjecture or statements claiming to know would be an argument from ignorance at best: We weren't there when it happened so how would we know?

As to J7's comment about people reading more presumptions into aliens than may actually be true... Agreed.

I try to consider all possibilities since we don't actually have any hard truth on them. Even Roswell is...hazy at best.

Tommycat
01-29-2010, 12:41 AM
Or they simply have integrated with us already and most of us are unaware. :xp:

Regarding Egypt and pyramids:
The only thing about the pyramids is that we simply don't know all their secrets. Aren't there amphitheaters even modern technology can't replicate? Or how did the tens to hundreds of tons of solid mass come to be shaped and built into these structures without any equipment?

I seriously doubt people ALONE could have done it THAT well made or THAT big--sure we have "evidence" claiming that they did but honestly there are too many pieces missing and any conjecture or statements claiming to know would be an argument from ignorance at best: We weren't there when it happened so how would we know?

As to J7's comment about people reading more presumptions into aliens than may actually be true... Agreed.

I try to consider all possibilities since we don't actually have any hard truth on them. Even Roswell is...hazy at best.

Well we do have some evidence that the great pyramids are the end of a series of trial and error to get it right. There are several pyramids that have collapsed and or had massive structure problems. Do we feel that aliens helped build the cathedrals in Europe? Sure there's around 3k years difference, but since progress is non-linear, and the pyramids are far less complex than the cathedrals of Europe, isn't it possible that they just happened to be built by people and designed by people?

I think IF aliens saw us, they would be more interested in our planet's resources than in us. Well aside from maybe training us to be pets. I hear we can be housebroken pretty easily. And we are capable of quite a number of tricks. We'll make great pets.

Sabretooth
01-29-2010, 02:29 AM
I seriously doubt people ALONE could have done it THAT well made or THAT big--sure we have "evidence" claiming that they did but honestly there are too many pieces missing and any conjecture or statements claiming to know would be an argument from ignorance at best: We weren't there when it happened so how would we know?

I had the same doubts concerning Burj Khalifa until I struck upon the golden rule of world-awing architecture: have lots of money, and lots of cheap (preferably free) labour. Does amazing things.

Scatter
01-30-2010, 10:11 AM
christ j7, snip

p.s. we've been broadcasting signals into space for over 75 years now. bit late to worry about it...

Det. Bart Lasiter
01-30-2010, 10:21 AM
fight him to the death

jonathan7
01-30-2010, 10:21 AM
christ j7, ~snipped~

The word to describe my position would be pragmatic.

Furthermore, I fail to see how I have been hypocritical; the only thing I think of Aliens (if they exist) is that they will be very different to us, I don't know if they would be friendly or not.



p.s. we've been broadcasting signals into space for over 75 years now. bit late to worry about it...

Doesn't mean it's a good idea :xp:

JediRevan1
01-30-2010, 03:36 PM
if you check out this website, library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00451/cavedrawings.htm, it has several very interesting cave drawings that depict extraterrestrials in helmets

Q
01-30-2010, 04:32 PM
I don't believe that qualifies as proof.

I'm sort of indifferent to this matter. All I can say is "To Serve Man".

TKA-001
01-30-2010, 04:57 PM
If extraterrestrials have discovered Earth and are intelligent, they have seen what mankind has done not only to the Earth but to each other as well. If they have seen this, they have deemed this planet not worth visiting due to the violence, racism, and hatred shown by mankind to each other.
So only humans are *******s? Why aren't aliens *******s too?

I forgot to add that proof has been established that the Earth was visited by extraterrestrials millenia ago. There are cave drawings in Europe, Africa, Australia, and Asia that show their visits. How else can you explain the pyramids and the Aztec and Mayan temples?
People love things that are mysterious. Old things are mysterious. Therefore, old civilizations are mysterious, because the only things we know of them are artifacts which are many hundreds and thousands of years old.

Mysterious **** is cool. Therefore, people love to believe that ancient mysterious people knew stuff that we don't. Ancient mysterious people never had people with boring, ordinary lives. There were never any Egyptians who had a single mundane, stupid day in their lives. They were busy chatting it up with the aliens who built the pyramids for them. There were never any Aztecs who had to build houses, or even do something as simple as take a piss off in the woods. They were too busy drawing calendars which predicted that world's destruction would occur on a date that had lots of twelves in it according to a calendar which didn't exist yet to do anything that wasn't mysterious and unknown.

Another cool and mysterious thing is how we have prehistoric people doing what is essentially the prehistoric equivalent of spray-painting your name on the bathroom wall, and thousands of years later we point and call it proof that aliens were here, because ancient people are mysterious and know things.

My family and I lived in a home in Freeport, Illinois (United States of America) when I was sixteen. While there, my brother accidentally put a hole in the wall at the end of a hallway by running into it. We had to get a new block of wall to put in the hole. So we did, but before Dad put it in place, we all drew some stuff on the interior side of the block. I drew a stick figure shooting lightning out of his hands with the caption "Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but it also kicks absolute ass" underneath it.

It's comforting to know that in six thousand years or so, when the English language is no longer used and almost unrecognizable, a group of people will believe that aliens have already been to earth. Non-physical ghost-like energy beings who can possess people and control static electricity in the air.

All because I drew a stick figure shooting lightning out of his hands when I was sixteen.

Scatter
01-31-2010, 02:18 AM
<snipped>

pointing out someone's view is contradictory or hypocritical IS "adressing the message" ffs.

exhibit a:
Just an observation here; It's funny how people's own opinions seem to be imprinted onto Aliens.if any extra-terrestrial life forms have figuered out how to get from point a to point b in the universe; wiping out us, would be comparatively a piece of cake.
projecting much?

exhibit b:
This to be franks seems foolish, you make a number of assumptions about how Aliens are going to be
I'm not really worried about it, but broadcasting signals into space, seems about as wise to me as running around in a pitch dark forest singing; sure there could be a nice furry animal who's friendly alternatively you may run into a grizzly...
assumption much?

The word to describe my position would be pragmatic.
no, it would be better described as any of blinkered; isolationist; negative, backward; or fearful.

mate, mankind didn't make the strides it did in the 20th century by being afraid. we took to the skies when the consequences could have been horrific (and still sometimes are), yet modern society would be vastly inferior if not the wright brothers at kittyhawk.

the meek shall not inherit the earth. well, not outside of bedtime stories anyway...

Darth Avlectus
01-31-2010, 04:54 AM
Well we do have some evidence that the great pyramids are the end of a series of trial and error to get it right. There are several pyramids that have collapsed and or had massive structure problems. Do we feel that aliens helped build the cathedrals in Europe? Sure there's around 3k years difference, but since progress is non-linear, and the pyramids are far less complex than the cathedrals of Europe, isn't it possible that they just happened to be built by people and designed by people?
It's possible. I am just not so sure it was done by people alone, furthermore I don't see that people necessarily means exclusively human--but this is getting ahead of ourselves. I was thinking more along the line of equipment and machines which may already be present in these structures but is not apparent b/c we don't know how to understand it.

I think IF aliens saw us, they would be more interested in our planet's resources than in us.
Since I don't know if they were malicious or benevolent, I can't say with certainty what their motives would be. Though yes, resources are a consideration, I'd think they would still do it under secrecy and subtlety. Unless they are taking un-obvious resorces in ways we don't even comprehend, which is also a possibility.

Otherwise in order to do it blatantly and overtly, they'd have to be so domineering and overpowering in order to succeed. So unless it is through governments and corporations working together (ironically STILL another veil) I fail to see how they'd be doing it in this latter way.

Well aside from maybe training us to be pets. I hear we can be housebroken pretty easily. And we are capable of quite a number of tricks. We'll make great pets.

Ah, the slave resource. Could be farming and growing a slave race.

Yes, relatively docile and easy to please. IIRC, Oswald or someone like that in 1962 at a conference on eugenics who had studied human behavior said something to the effect that "Humans can be made and conditioned to love their leaders and to enjoy conditions of filth, poverty, and servitude that by any decent standard of living, they ought not to."

So assuming malicious greed on their part, I would say for wanting resources that you are correct: WE are those resources.

I had the same doubts concerning Burj Khalifa until I struck upon the golden rule of world-awing architecture: have lots of money, and lots of cheap (preferably free) labour. Does amazing things.

A trait that has survived to this day amongst architects and similar others, undoubtedly. It's just so reassuring to know that I am only slightly less expendable than slave labours in the eyes of today's equivalent to Egyptian god-kings. :dozey:

The word to describe my position would be pragmatic.

Furthermore, I fail to see how I have been hypocritical; the only thing I think of Aliens (if they exist) is that they will be very different to us, I don't know if they would be friendly or not.





Doesn't mean it's a good idea :xp:

I doubt that it'd surprise you much that after Wardenclyffe, Tesla was looked upon as a madman, especially when he said he was attempting to contact the gods.

I thought he was supposed to be a devout christian. ::

Wookiee Rrudolf
01-31-2010, 07:00 AM
I tend to see this on both sides of the fence.
A culture capable of incredible technology... has to be a result of incredible intelligence coupled with incredible cooperation... cooperative intelligence that is non-Borg must be somewhat friendly... friendly beings don't vaporize civilizations to rape raw materials...

Of course there may be highly advanced civilization with the society of ants ;) Ants are very cooperative but not very friendly (but it's a Borg type of culture).
Yet this type of aliens would have any interest in our planet only if we had some type of resources they need. Otherwise they wouldn't care - why would they? If they wanted only resources it would be easier to mine it in their own star system. When materials would end and they come for more to us, they would take it from asteroid belt and other planets - we could do nothing about it and they wouldn't have to fight for some little remains on Earth with us and use they precious resources.
Only situation they would have any interest in human race would be the need for slaves.

Other cultures - pacifistic ones - could for example like our art or they would be interested in our philosophy or maybe in shearing some technology (hyperdrive in exchange for 50" FullHD TV Screen ;) ). We shouldn't be worry about them.

What I fear is that there may be a alien culture that is similar to ours.

jonathan7
01-31-2010, 09:17 AM
I'll respond to people who are wishing to have a discussion first :)

if you check out this website, library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00451/cavedrawings.htm, it has several very interesting cave drawings that depict extraterrestrials in helmets

Personally, I don't think that is proof. Given the extravagance of ancient Egyptian head masks I don't see how helmets qualifies as proof of extra terrestrials. Beyond that, I didn't see any links to the images in the link you provided so I can't really comment further :)

What I fear is that there may be a alien culture that is similar to ours.

This is a very interesting statement, is this out of a fear we would be very similar, or that the negative traits present in humanity would also be present in any Alien species?

I doubt that it'd surprise you much that after Wardenclyffe, Tesla was looked upon as a madman, especially when he said he was attempting to contact the gods.

Not really :xp: I'm far more interested in the rules Isaac Asimov made for governing contact between species of alien origin.

I thought he was supposed to be a devout christian.

I'm not quite sure what Extra-Terrestrial life and Christianity have to do with each other, i.e. the Bible never really comments on if life exists elsewhere (despite the comments of some).

pointing out someone's view is contradictory or hypocritical IS "adressing the message" ffs.

Not for a start if you dont present any evidence, you just called my argument names. Furthermore most Kavars regulars know each other and know how the others think. Now note; no-one else thinks my position is hypocritical, further more it's clear from your "evidence" you really don't understand the way I think; though you seem far more intent on trying to make a strawman out of me, in any case.

Then for the apparent evidence.

exhibit a:

projecting much?

How is this projecting anything? At no point do I state that if an intelligent extra-terrestrial life form had the technology to get from a to b and had the ability to wipe us out that they would (so to be clear as day for you, I'm not saying Aliens would wipe us out, or enslave us, or be our friends; that is not knowable with the present data). However it would seem to me the old saying "caution is the greater part of valour" with regards the concern of the whole planet is correct. (And yes I know various signals have been going up for a considerable time, however that doesn't mean it is a wise move).

The only person projecting anything is you, and wanting to project it on to me. Presumably because anyone in opposition to your opinion is "blinkered; isolationist; negative, backward; or fearful."

Of course Aristotle so long ago had something right;

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

Qui-Gon Glenn, came in with a balanced post, further more there are several separate discussions within this. Nor is it that I don't see the benefits of doing such, though usually our advances have been haphazard, so I think that broadcasting into space is more likely to provide better telecommunications on earth as a bi-product.

One is that I do think it is arrogant on the behalf of some scientists, considering they have the right to send signals into space. Much as I think it highly arrogant (and more over in the following case evil) that Nazi scientists thought they had the right to experiment on other humans. Back on topic sending signals into space could potentially be of great benefit, or bring about great harm. It is also unlike most things that have gone before, with regards discovery. However if their is intelligent life out there, they themselves seem to have adopted a wait and see strategy as to if there is other life in the cosmos.

Of the very small amount of data we do have in this equation seemingly earth is a very rare thing; and with nothing known about a possible alien civilisations out there, sending out signals about our existence, I cannot see as good. However lets use sci-fi as an exampe; Perhaps the aliens will be like Vulcans, then great. But also on the other hand, what happens if circumstance has force any aliens into an Independence Day style existence.

exhibit b:


assumption much?

Did you even read what I wrote there? I further fail to see how I have assumed anything of aliens, they could be friendly or they could be hostile. That isn't something that can be ascertained at this current time; without data.

no, it would be better described as any of blinkered; isolationist; negative, backward; or fearful.

Oh look, more of the uncivilized name calling.

we took to the skies when the consequences could have been horrific (and still sometimes are), yet modern society would be vastly inferior if not the wright brothers at kittyhawk.

I fail to see how thinking broadcasting signals into space being a bad idea equates to being a Luddite. I would not have protested, about the Wright brothers, the quest for absolute zero, or computing advances (Churchill ordering the destruction of the computers at Bletchely park set us back a few years, and was a great shame).

Of course your whole argument seems to involve construction strawmen, using ad-hominems and putting words into the mouths of others. While simultaneously bringing down what was a previously civil discussion.

the meek shall not inherit the earth. well, not outside of bedtime stories anyway...

Oh look, another un-necessary affront to anyone who thinks differently to you... Well done!

mate, mankind didn't make the strides it did in the 20th century by being afraid.

What did the 20th Century really bring? Mans ability to be uncivilised to fellow man and industrial killing on a scale not previously known would seem to be the "highlights" of the 20th Century.

Yes, I'm sure all the Jews who died in the Holocaust are absolutely delighted at the advances medical science made due to their torture. For example; all we know of decompression sickness and it's effects are due to the Nazi's putting concentration camp victims in early decompression chambers, noting the effects of greater and greater (and less and less) pressures until they were dead. Seemingly Mengele had discovered how to manipulate Genes, 40 years before anyone else, given the amount of Ayrayan children in the village he helped woman through pregnancy...

Wookiee Rrudolf
01-31-2010, 12:56 PM
What I fear is that there may be a alien culture that is similar to ours.

This is a very interesting statement, is this out of a fear we would be very similar, or that the negative traits present in humanity would also be present in any Alien species?

Based on our history humans always conquered, enslaved and destroyed different 'weaker' civilizations. There were never a situation when discovery of a new culture did something good to both cultures (when they had different level of development). It's always been conquer (military or cultural). Earthlings are very xenophobic and non-tolerant to other points of view.
I fear that meeting a culture that is similar to ours would cause a war and in the end wiping out human race (since we would be the ones 'weaker' or 'less civilized'). On the other hand we could survive as a species but extinct as a culture. We would be assimilated by the aliens and probably become some sort of lower class citizens.
Add to this our sci-fi films and games with tons of 'evil aliens' to kill ('-Greetings beings of Earth. I come in peace from planet X. Lets have some fun. What do you do for fun? -We kill aliens!' ;) ). And even if they were friendly they wouldn't be any more after our welcome full of aggression, accusations and doubt of their intentions.

Ztalker
02-01-2010, 07:22 AM
The problem here is, all opinions here are fuelled by what we see or hear. Aka; the movies, internet, games and all.
There's no problem with that, but maybe we should look more abstract.

Maybe aliens will live in 4 dimensions at once? Or they excist out of gas? Maybe they're 1 atom big? In all honesty, maybe 'other' life is far, far, far more different then we expect, simply because it's not imaginable for us.

Thus, I believe, when the time comes we will find out and adapt. And like Wookiee Rrudolf said; probably do something bad when we have adapted.

Wookiee Rrudolf
02-01-2010, 08:49 AM
@Ztalker
You are right. Aliens may be completely different then anything we can imagine. But do you think we could meet this type of aliens? Even if we saw an alien like that we probably wouldn't recognize it as a living creature not to mention communicating with it. So we could make first contact and not be aware of it.
That's why I think we have chance to have any kind of interaction only with aliens somehow similar to us (be it a flying squid or a talking stone - but something we could recognize).

Sabretooth
02-01-2010, 11:48 AM
Even if we saw an alien like that we probably wouldn't recognize it as a living creature

Since we have a general definition of what life is, and how something may be classified as a living being, I'm quite sure that we'll recognise a living, extraterrestrial creature if we see one.

Wookiee Rrudolf
02-01-2010, 02:06 PM
Since we have a general definition of what life is, and how something may be classified as a living being, I'm quite sure that we'll recognise a living, extraterrestrial creature if we see one.

Indeed? ;) Are you really sure that we have a universal definition of life? I wouldn't say so...
Can you tell me if viruses are alive?
One say they are alive because they reproduce. Other say they're not because they need other cells to reproduce for them.
One say they feed on a host. Other say viruses don't have metabolism.
So are they alive or not? We can't really say. We don't have a definition of life that would interchangeably classify viruses. So how would we recognise alien life since we can't say if something is alive on Earth?

PS. Viruses have many common attributes with inorganic crystals. Are crystals alive?

machievelli
02-01-2010, 02:39 PM
A friend of mine runs a board game company in Mississippi. Back in '76 I helped him for three weeks, handling orders as he worked on an air to air war game. One of the perks I got was a cartoon series of Star Trek and other Sci Fi shows of that time with sarcastic commentary.

In one, the science officer reports that they have just recieved a message asking if there is intelligent life out there. The captain replied; 'They're joking, right?'

While technology whether mechanical or biomechanical can take you from place to place, it does not endow the creator with human emotions. The Nazi Death camps prove that. If they have emotions, we would have to discover them.

I don't remember the name of the story, but it began with an attack on a colony on one of Jupiter's moons. The enemy waited until our fleet arrived, then retreated, but did so by dropping in the atmosphere of that planet. Somewhere we cannot go.

As the 'war', fought with electronic devises able to transmit human senses into machines on the planet is being waged, a psychologist suggests that the enemy had merely been testing us. Not to see how good we are at war, but to try to elicit emotions they could recognize because only then could they hope to communicate. The Shrink along with one soldier gas the entire home base, so the enemy would detect nothing, then waited for the enemy to show an emotion; in this case regret.

After that, now they can at least try to communicate.

Ztalker
02-01-2010, 04:43 PM
*Snip*
After that, now they can at least try to communicate.

Exactly my point :) we are talking about communicating with something that could have an entirely different outlook on life and communication.

The aliens would feel the same though. :) would be pretty exciting for them too!

Web Rider
02-01-2010, 05:11 PM
I always disliked the assumption that because aliens have made it into space they are therefore one unified people and all peaceful and therefore smart enough to avoid us. Galactically speaking, Earth and our solar system is located in nowheresville, we're on the edge of the edge of an arm. Even if we are shouting at the top of our lungs, we're not even close enough to anything for it to be anything short of forever before someone hears us and we get a reply back.

I doubt aliens are ignoring us, though I likewise doubt aliens are actively visiting us. We're just out in the middle of the woods where nobody goes a lot, and if a tree shouts in the middle of the woods, does anyone care?

I suspect for the most part, assuming that reality is largely as we perceive it, that most aliens are in the same situation we are. They're somewhat developed, advanced, or underdeveloped comparatively to us to some degree, and they're mostly shouting into space hoping for a response too. And that's only my suspicions for life in this galaxy, to even dream of visiting another solar-system, much less one on the opposite side of the galaxy, is a heck of a different idea than visiting another solar system on the other side of another galaxy.

machievelli
02-01-2010, 07:54 PM
The best alien invasion book I read was Von Neuman's war. Primarily because being machines, the invaders dealt with us as merely something blocking them from what they wished to take. Attributing emotins or attitudes is a sure way to fail. As much as the liberals believe 'oh they'd be peaceful because truly evolved peoples are' why should an alien race care what we think if they decide to collect all the dachsunds on the planet? The most recent version of the Day the Earth Stood still showed such an attitude. I just with their version of Klaatu had told us what they intended before dropping the hammer on us.

Web Rider
02-06-2010, 07:14 PM
As much as the liberals believe..

:ugh:
Really? REALLY?

Darth InSidious
02-06-2010, 09:06 PM
Regarding Egypt and pyramids:
The only thing about the pyramids is that we simply don't know all their secrets. Aren't there amphitheaters even modern technology can't replicate? Or how did the tens to hundreds of tons of solid mass come to be shaped and built into these structures without any equipment?

I seriously doubt people ALONE could have done it THAT well made or THAT big--sure we have "evidence" claiming that they did but honestly there are too many pieces missing and any conjecture or statements claiming to know would be an argument from ignorance at best: We weren't there when it happened so how would we know?

Bull's bollocks. Nothing more than a farrago of doubts, ignorance and suspicion. And I'm really, really sick of listening to this kind of abject rubbish.

There is nothing in the shaping, dressing, and cutting of lime- and sandstone that cannot be done with copper or even stone tools commonly available by the Third Dynasty.

There was no manpower shortage in a country with a stable population of around three million and a vast food surplus being produced by a small amount of the population that would make manpower an issue.

There is no developmental sea-change. The mud-brick mastabas of the Early Dynastic Period give way to the stone-built Step Pyramid of Netjerikhet at Saqqara, which is followed by the Maidum pyramid of Huni, the Bent Pyramid of Snofru and the Red Pyramid of the same king at Dahshur. All Khufu did was to take an existing idea and enlarge it.

There is no gap technologically that needs to filled; there is no gap in manpower that needs to be filled, and there is no gap in conception that needs to be filled. There isn't even a gap in ideology.

The Great Pyramid has the same valley temple and causeway arrangement of almost every pyramid until the end of the Middle Kingdom.

The issue is an invention without any justification. There is no basis for inventing space-aliens to explain away the pyramids. There is no necessity to invent space-aliens to explain away the pyramids. There is no logic to inventing space-aliens to explain away the pyramids.

No, we couldn't build the Great Pyramid today. We couldn't build Chartres Cathedral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartres_Cathedral) today. Funny you don't pick that as necessarily having been built by aliens. And why can't we build them? Because the economic structure of the modern age is fundamentally at odds with massive, monumental constructions of this sort, in a way that the economics of the ancient world* weren't.


ENTIA NON SUNT MULTIPLICANDA PRAETER NECESSITATEM.

*And there were complex economic systems in place, unless any of you would like to explain how lapis lazuli managed to jump from Afghanistan to Egypt without the use of trade.

Jae Onasi
02-06-2010, 11:27 PM
Darth InSidious, if I make a pyramid out of tinfoil and put it on my head, will that make the Aliens come visit me?

Darth Avlectus
02-07-2010, 01:39 AM
@DI: You know what? You're right. Forget I said anything. :lol:

Back to square one with the aliens I guess. :rolleyes:

purifier
02-07-2010, 04:58 AM
Darth InSidious, if I make a pyramid out of tinfoil and put it on my head, will that make the Aliens come visit me?

:eyepop Oh noooooooo Momerator, you wouldn't want to do that - that just really pisses them off too no end. ;)

Now what you really what to do, is get a psychic person and do a mind-meld or something; so as to make proper contact through the right channels, that's the idea. :D

____________________________________________



@Thread: Yep, just like that one psychic Dr. Zahi Hawass *echo* (WORLDS MOST FAMOUS EGYPTOLOGISTS)*echo* used to prove ONCE AGAIN, that the so-called "Pyramid of Khufu" was built supposedly byyyyyyyy - yes you guessed it - *echo* "KHUUFUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuu." *echo*

:lol: Which is kind of ironic when you think about it, since over the years, egyptologists have been putting down people just because they believe differently about how the "Pyramids of Giza" were actually built; as for example: technically advanced foreign refugees from a sunken island in the Atlantic, of which Edgar Cayce ( who was considered to be a known psychic ) had said the "Pyramids of Giza were built by exiled Atlanteans over 10,000 years ago and first started the Egyptian culture, or Mayan refugees who were lost at sea and drifted to upper part of Africa, etc. Oh, and of course - let's not forget the possibility of Aliens too.

Yes sir, bashing other people's possible beliefs and using psychic means at the same time, to justify their beliefs and supposed proofs. Yeah, that's the way you do it man. :thmbup1:

machievelli
02-07-2010, 12:31 PM
:ugh:
Really? REALLY?

I usually use the term Liberal when I point at people who have unrealistic views of a situation and we usually pay the price. If you watch the older Sci Fi movies, you always have the one who says 'They're so much more advanced, they must be peaceful' right before the aliens attack.

That might not be a liberal, true. But as often as I hear absurd arguments spouted with complete confidence in politics social engineering and economics, I stand by my comment.demand 'women's choice in abortion.

New: On second tought, I have to say I am sorry I used the term. I was thinking of all the times someone would spout a position with one breath, and a diametrically opposite position on something that might be the same thing. As a 'liberal' position it is opposition to the death penalty at the same time you push a 'woman's choice' in abortion. On the same (And just as stupid front) you have the hidebound Conservatives who with one breath defend the death penalty yet scream 'Right to Life' on Abortion.

So I am sorry I called it liberal, let's just agree to call it really effing stupid.

Darth InSidious
02-07-2010, 06:23 PM
@Thread: Yep, just like that one psychic Dr. Zahi Hawass *echo* (WORLDS MOST FAMOUS EGYPTOLOGISTS)*echo* used to prove ONCE AGAIN, that the so-called "Pyramid of Khufu" was built supposedly byyyyyyyy - yes you guessed it - *echo* "KHUUFUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuu." *echo*

:lol: Which is kind of ironic when you think about it, since over the years, egyptologists have been putting down people just because they believe differently about how the "Pyramids of Giza" were actually built; as for example: technically advanced foreign refugees from a sunken island in the Atlantic, of which Edgar Cayce ( who was considered to be a known psychic ) had said the "Pyramids of Giza were built by exiled Atlanteans over 10,000 years ago and first started the Egyptian culture, or Mayan refugees who were lost at sea and drifted to upper part of Africa, etc. Oh, and of course - let's not forget the possibility of Aliens too.

Yes sir, bashing other people's possible beliefs and using psychic means at the same time, to justify their beliefs and supposed proofs. Yeah, that's the way you do it man. :thmbup1:

Do you have any evidence for this claim? The only reference to Zahi Hawass in connexion with psychics are in relation to Edgar Cayce.

The reason Egyptologists haven't believed the inane ramblings of so-called "psychics" is because they have:

(a) No empirical evidence for their supposed abilities;
(b) contradicted the archaeological and the textual record with their frequent abject bull****.

That includes Cayce.

On Cayce himself, there is no evidence for his so-called abilities that is in any way credible.

Once again, the New Age movement attempts to obscure the truth in a heap of casuistry, implication and suspicion that goes directly against the evidence, and against the testimony of every credible scientist involved.

As in the tarot card thread, you are talking nonsense.

Tommycat
02-07-2010, 08:55 PM
I'd believe the aliens built the pyramids, if they were hovering above Giza. With enough people and time most construction projects are pretty attainable.

Honestly today's population is pretty technology spoiled. Most people today wouldn't survive life in the 1700's... maybe even 1800's... I mean really there are so few who could even live without takeout.... so saying that we couldn't build the pyramids today is kinda misleading... We've lost a lot of the necessary technology. Heck we have to completely start from scratch to get back to the moon. And that was only a few decades ago.

Mmmm pizzaaaaaa

Sabretooth
02-08-2010, 12:52 AM
I like how you imply that all of today's population is urban and American.

purifier
02-08-2010, 05:19 AM
Do you have any evidence for this claim? The only reference to Zahi Hawass in connexion with psychics are in relation to Edgar Cayce.

As far as I know their is a new TV special that was started a few years back called "Paranormal Egypt" although I think it's a media mockery myself, with a man named Derek Acorah (a so-called psychic) and woman named Tessa Dunlop along with Dr. Zahi Hawass in a few episodes, that has been presented on cable and network television since then. Not sure how you missed all of this, but this program has been going on for quite awhile.

Anyway..Hawass has allowed these individuals with thier type of media melodrama into the "Great Giza Pyramid" and Egypt's other monuments as well, to conduct psychic investigations and present information that seems to conveniently back up egyptologists theories.

Now the point being, if egyptologists don't belive in the "insane ramblings of so-called "psychics" as you put it, then why in the hell are egyptologists like Dr. Zahi Hawass allowing psyhcics like Derek Acorah to conduct such media mockery at these locations. Inquiring minds what to know?

Need links as to what the hell I'm talking about...okay, here.

http://www.badarchaeology.net/method/psychic.php

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dd5_1188071707

http://www.adambowie.com/weblog/archive/002234.html

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=paranormal+egypt&search=Search




The reason Egyptologists haven't believed the inane ramblings of so-called "psychics" is because they have:

(a) No empirical evidence for their supposed abilities;
(b) contradicted the archaeological and the textual record with their frequent abject bull****.

That includes Cayce.

On Cayce himself, there is no evidence for his so-called abilities that is in any way credible.

I'm going to assume you haven't done much research on EDGAR CAYCE, are else you would have known that some of his predications came true, some examples: he forsaw the stock market crash and great depression before it happen, he forsaw the collaspe of Soviet Union and communism before that happen, and he foretold the discovery of the Essenes and Dead Sea Scrolls just to name a few.

Although IMO, so-called psychics like Derek Acorah are obvisouly fakes and pretty much give past psychics like EDGAR CAYCE a bad name.



Once again, the New Age movement attempts to obscure the truth in a heap of casuistry, implication and suspicion that goes directly against the evidence, and against the testimony of every credible scientist involved.

Oh really, as I see it there are some unexplained things about the Giza pyramids and the Sphinx that have been contradictory to some of the accepted egyptology theories over the past years; of which archeolgists and egyptologists seem to want to ignore, or provide a reasonable answer for.

So I'm inclined to have more faith in what John Anthony West, Graham Hancock, Chris Dunn, Douglas Kenyon, and others say about the subject and their crediblity, compared to what egyptologists have tryed to purposely get by with; as to explanations with semi-flawed theories about the construction of the "Giza Pyramids." Although I don't go along with the "Aliens built them" idea, that doesn't mean it couldn't have been a possiblity; still I don't totally support it.


As in the tarot card thread, you are talking nonsense.

Yeah..and your entitled to your opinion, but do keep in mind "O InSidious one," that opinions can and will vary. :D

Tommycat
02-08-2010, 06:18 AM
I like how you imply that all of today's population is urban and American.

Nope. I wasn't being specific... and I did not add the qualifier, but that does not mean that I was talking about all of the population. I guess though that I should have been a bit more specific as the majority of people in the world probably could survive the 1700 and 1800's(seeing as how the majority of people in the world already live with that technology level). But you are right, I should have said that most people in the western world probably couldn't survive those times. Much of the west has been pretty well spoiled into being technology dependant.

jonathan7
02-08-2010, 06:52 AM
As far as I know their is a new TV special that was started a few years back called "Paranormal Egypt" although I think it's a media mockery myself, with a man named Derek Acorah (a so-called psychic) and woman named Tessa Dunlop along with Dr. Zahi Hawass in a few episodes, that has been presented on cable and network television since then. Not sure how you missed all of this, but this program has been going on for quite awhile.

Why is it so many Americans assume everyone else on the forum is American? To assume makes an ass out of u and me.

For the record however Darth Insidious is an emenantly qualified Egyptologist, : Edit removed details of Darthies personal credentials due to his request.

Anyway..Hawass has allowed these individuals with thier type of media melodrama into the "Great Giza Pyramid" and Egypt's other monuments as well, to conduct psychic investigations and present information that seems to conveniently back up egyptologists theories.

I'm going to bold this for you;

All psychology investigations into psychics have shown them to be nothing but frauds and charlatans who use sophisticated methods to fool those who already have a disposition to believe such things. They do this because theirs is a very lucrative business and they are out to make money out of the silly who believe them.

Now the point being, if egyptologists don't belive in the "insane ramblings of so-called "psychics" as you put it, then why in the hell are egyptologists like Dr. Zahi Hawass allowing psyhcics like Derek Acorah to conduct such media mockery at these locations. Inquiring minds what to know?

Because psychics are a lucrative business, and the cheque given to the Museums and Pyramids in Egypt will go towards their upkeep?

http://www.badarchaeology.net/method/psychic.php

Does the fact that this website is called "bad archaeology" not say it all?

I'm going to assume you haven't done much research on EDGAR CAYCE, are else you would have known that some of his predications came true, some examples: he forsaw the stock market crash and great depression before it happen, he forsaw the collaspe of Soviet Union and communism before that happen, and he foretold the discovery of the Essenes and Dead Sea Scrolls just to name a few.

Eh? Quite a few economists forecast the economic collapse of the Soviet Union does that make them psychic? Furthermore, I predicted France would win Euro 2000, I predicted Brazil would win the WC in 2002 (and Ronaldo would top score), I predicted Italy would win the WC in 2006 and I predicted Spain would win Euro 2008 (and Villa would top score), does any of that make my psychic? Hell, for years I'd been saying that there would be an economic bust, that would get worse and worse as time went on ( I spent pretty much all of the 00's saying that), again does that make me psychic? Or perhaps all the data was there to be able to make such a prediction.

Oh really, as I see it there are some unexplained things about the Giza pyramids and the Sphinx that have been contradictory to some of the accepted egyptology theories over the past years; of which archeolgists and egyptologists seem to want to ignore, or provide a reasonable answer for.

What exactly isn't explained? I'm sure DI, is (unlike the psychic's) conniving, and wanting to fool the public over the true reasons behind the monuments of ancient Egypt, because he makes sooo much money out of it :dozey:

Yeah..and your entitled to your opinion, but do keep in mind "O InSidious one," that opinions can and will vary. :D

Opinions are also subject to being qualified or not, DI, is far more qualified to comment than you...

Edit Addendum; not, however purifier do I expect you to heed what I say, in my experience those who believe things on no logical grounds, cannot be appealed to by facts an logic, for they are on island which cannot be reached by the bridge of truth. I hope however when and if, you realise you have been duped there is no financial or other cost to yourself.

Astor
02-08-2010, 08:55 AM
Although IMO, so-called psychics like Derek Acorah are obvisouly fakes and pretty much give past psychics like EDGAR CAYCE a bad name.

As far as I can see, the only thing separating the two is that we know Derek Acorah to be a complete arse because of his stupendously bad acting and abortive TV shows, whereas we don't have that luxury with Edgar Cayce.

I'm a skeptic regarding anything of this nature, but i'm pretty sure that the Pyramids were built by Egyptians.

As for alien existence on the whole, it'd be nice if there were something out there, but i'm honestly not that bothered if there isn't.

Darth InSidious
02-08-2010, 11:03 AM
:facepalm:

As far as I know their is a new TV special that was started a few years back called "Paranormal Egypt" although I think it's a media mockery myself, with a man named Derek Acorah (a so-called psychic) and woman named Tessa Dunlop along with Dr. Zahi Hawass in a few episodes, that has been presented on cable and network television since then. Not sure how you missed all of this, but this program has been going on for quite awhile.
Possibly I missed it because it's:

a) Called "Paranormal Egypt", and so about as interesting to me as a programme called "the secret sex-life of Elizabeth I" is to an historian of the Tudor period;
b) on TV in America, where, like a huge majority of the world's population, I don't live;
c) on cable TV in America, which, like a huge majority of the world's population, I don't have.

Anyway..Hawass has allowed these individuals with thier type of media melodrama into the "Great Giza Pyramid" and Egypt's other monuments as well, to conduct psychic investigations and present information that seems to conveniently back up egyptologists theories.
Perhaps you've missed it, but Zahi Hawass is the "world's most famous Egyptologist" for a reason. From one of your own links:

Hawass (the granddaddy of contemporary Egyptian archaeology) seems unaware of the nature of the program. Despite never missing an opportunity for self-promotion, it seems unlikely that he would have knowingly allowed Acorah to run around his precious domain spouting spiritualist nonsense.
Emphasis mine. I think I have a good idea why Hawass allows Acorah access, though: he thinks he's a harmless nut, and he's certainly no threat to him. Again, from your own link:

Was he really aware of what he was endorsing? On some occasions the on-screen experts can barely contain their giggles as Acorah flails wildly around the pyramids, their amusement tempered by concern that he may damage the monuments to which they have just granted him access.
Emphasis once again mine.

Now the point being, if egyptologists don't belive in the "insane ramblings of so-called "psychics" as you put it,
Actually, I put it as the inane ramblings. Please don't correct my English - particularly when your own clearly isn't of a comparable standard.

then why in the hell are egyptologists like Dr. Zahi Hawass allowing psyhcics like Derek Acorah to conduct such media mockery at these locations. Inquiring minds what to know?
Why, indeed?

Need links as to what the hell I'm talking about...okay, here.

http://www.badarchaeology.net/method/psychic.php

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dd5_1188071707

http://www.adambowie.com/weblog/archive/002234.html

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=paranormal+egypt&search=Search
So, just to get this straight: Your info comes from a dumbed-down, sexed-up 'psychic Egypt' TV programme? One you yourself don't think is anything more than entertainment TV? You're going to have to do better than that, because the average TV programme's research isn't worth anything.

I'm going to assume you haven't done much research on EDGAR CAYCE, are else you would have known that some of his predications came true,
OMG, his predictions came TRUE! That changes EVERYTHING. :eek:

If you make enough predictions, of course some of them are going to 'come true'. Nostradamus' predictions "came true" - the world still didn't end in 2001, did it? :dozey:

some examples: he forsaw the stock market crash and great depression before it happen, he forsaw the collaspe of Soviet Union and communism before that happen, and he foretold the discovery of the Essenes and Dead Sea Scrolls just to name a few.
So,let's see, the predictions you quote are:

- An economic bust following nearly two decades of boom;
- The collapse of an unsustainable governmental system;
- An archaeological discovery would be made pertaining to the history of Judaeism.

Well, hold the horses there! That's so convincing. I'm also amused by how vague, circumstantial, and third-hand your evidence is.

Oh really, as I see it there are some unexplained things about the Giza pyramids and the Sphinx that have been contradictory to some of the accepted egyptology theories over the past years; of which archeolgists and egyptologists seem to want to ignore, or provide a reasonable answer for.
... And yet you refuse to name them. How convenient.

Of course there are gaps in our knowledge. There always will be. All that means is that our current model is flawed - not that we need to start inventing mythical islands, or space entities, or abilities that there is no credible evidence for. I'll repeat it once again for you:

ENTITIES SHOULD NOT BE MULTIPLIED BEYOND NECESSITY.

What is so hard for you to understand about this?

Most of these theories have either fallen flat on their face (cf: Orion Correlation), or resorted to blatant invention to justify themselves. They are not reputable academically because they're no more evidence-based than the story of Jack and the bean-stalk.

It's true, we don't know precisely how the pyramids were built. What we do, however:

- What writing there around the pyramid complexes relates to the fourth dynasty;
-The tombs surrounding the pyramids are of the fourth and fifth dynasties;
-They show a clear progression technologically from the pyramids of Snofru and Huni;
- All the tools, manpower and time necessary to build them, as well as the economic models necessary to support the manpower and time to be used, were available in Egypt by the Fourth Dynasty;
-The Egyptians themselves believed them to belong to the kings Khufu, Khafra and Menkaura, even within the Old Kingdom;
-They show no typological difference from other pyramids of the Fourth Dynasty except in size;
-They are funerary constructions, and show a clear progression of design from the pyramids of Djoser, through to the pyramids of the Fifth Dynasty which contain the explicitly funerary pyramid texts and up to the shaft-tombs of the 17th Dynasty at Dra Abu el-Naga;
-They are surrounded by non-royal tombs of contemporaneous officials;
-The other Old Kingdom pyramids, particularly those of the Fifth and Sixth Dynasties were clearly referred to in contemporaneous texts as funerary monuments in texts fom the officials' tombs;
-Khufu's pyramid's Egyptian name was "Khufu-belongs-to-the-Horizon", "the Horizon" being a typical Egyptian euphemism for a royal tomb.

Do you really want to tell me that these are not the tombs of the Fourth Dynasty kings Khufu, Khafre, and Menkaure in light of the mountain of evidence on my side, the opinion of every credible Egyptologist between here and Canberra, and my own obvious expertise?

Just to recap, the pyramids of the Giza plateau, following my above-listed evidence are:

- In the shape of buildings known from later and earlier periods to be tombs;
- Surrounded by tombs;
- Connected to funerary temples;
- Not technologically or in terms of manpower in any way improbable, for Old Kingdom Egypt;
- Mentioned in near-contemporaneous texts as tombs;
- Named in a way consistent with royal tombs up until at least the end of the Middle Kingdom;
- Believed by the Egyptians themselves to be the tombs of Egyptian kings;
- Not in any way extraordinary except in their size for Egypt during the Fourth Dynasty, or even in any period after the Second Dynasty and before the Eighteenth Dynasty, which is a period stretching, roughly, 2600-1800 BC.

Funnily enough, the reason most Egyptologists don't support these theories is because they are:

a) Unscientific, and
b) Not only have no basis in, but actively contradict the evidence we do have.

The only "vast conspiracy" is one to try and discredit the truth in order to spread blatant nonsense, and, presumably, make a huge amount of money out of it. It's not like gnosis is a new racket.

So I'm inclined to have more faith in what John Anthony West, Graham Hancock, Chris Dunn, Douglas Kenyon, and others say about the subject and their crediblity, compared to what egyptologists have tryed to purposely get by with; as to explanations with semi-flawed theories about the construction of the "Giza Pyramids." Although I don't go along with the "Aliens built them" idea, that doesn't mean it couldn't have been a possiblity; still I don't totally support it.

Ah, yes. "Evil academics are hiding the truth!!!!!". The last refuge of the intellectually indefensible, who have no evidence and no logic to back up their rubbish.

Yeah..and your entitled to your opinion, but do keep in mind "O InSidious one," that opinions can and will vary. :D

Of course opinions vary, but there is a huge difference between an informed and an uninformed or even misinformed opinion, and there is an equally vast gap between fact and fiction. And an opinion informed by the evidence is a hell of a lot more valuable than one formed out of some half-cocked, unscientific bull****ter's attempts to take you for a ride on cable TV.

Sabretooth
02-08-2010, 11:23 AM
I'm going to assume you haven't done much research on EDGAR CAYCE, are else you would have known that some of his predications came true, some examples: he forsaw the stock market crash and great depression before it happen, he forsaw the collaspe of Soviet Union and communism before that happen, and he foretold the discovery of the Essenes and Dead Sea Scrolls just to name a few.

I foresee that Barack Obama will die, China will become the world's largest economy and that there will be at least 3 terrorist attacks on Western nations in the next 10 years.

Do I get to be called a psychic yet? I already have one of those electric crystal ball thingamabobs.

Wookiee Rrudolf
02-08-2010, 12:55 PM
@Darth InSidious
It may be a bit off-topic but since I have this occasion to ask someone who actually is an Egyptologist - could you tell me is it true that in the Great Pyramid there is only one inscription with Khufu's name (and it has an error in it) compared to other tombs with lots of inscriptions, religious texts (helping in the journey to the other world) and so on? Many theories (alien help, people from Atlantis etc.) base on it.
I'm totally ignorant in the matter so please be forgiving ;)

Darth Avlectus
02-08-2010, 11:56 PM
Ok...so maybe Jae trying to lighten the tone followed by purifier in parade was a bit too much?
@ Purifier: Don't feel too bad. Remember, we're in Kavar's where it is in fact "The Internet [serious business]" afterall. This is the midst of rigid intellectuals and "informed people" of sorts.

I feel partly responsible for steering the thread in the direction of egypt when it is about contacting aliens...is there really nowhere else to go? It's obvious nails are going to be pounded into this coffin to make sure it stays shut....soooooo......

Contacting aliens. There's obviously a ton of speculation. No real evidence captured for much of it. Yet this planet is a tiny, tiny speck of dust in the vastness of our universe. Somehow we're the only ones here? Frankly I guess so many find it hard to believe because the odds of our being the only life in this entire vast plane of existence seems low. But alas, there is proof of what aliens didn't do.

Is a lack of proof of their (the aliens') existence proof in itself that aliens in fact don't exist? I thought this was big blank area signifying that we just don't know? Could that be possible? Might they just as well not exist, if to contact them is a "monumentally stupid" idea?

I'd say either:
1)They are primitive and contact is pointless.
OR
2) If they have craft that could propel them around space, they're more advanced than us and probably either don't want to have contact with us, have malicious intentions, or simply their understanding and ours are so far apart w.r.t. life in general that we're not in any position to have contact with them (Perhaps until we ourselves advance?).
========
Is it a stupid idea to contact them? Probably, if not for any danger, it would be futile and a waste of time.

Until they begin landing in ships all around Earth, aliens are basically what I'm going to be shooting on a playthrough of metroid. In the mean time, I'm just going to continue fixing electrical stuff as an electrician does.:nvr4get:

jonathan7
02-09-2010, 06:39 AM
@ Purifier: Don't feel too bad. Remember, we're in Kavar's where it is in fact "The Internet [serious business]" afterall. This is the midst of rigid intellectuals and "informed people" of sorts.

Eh? Firstly, I'm really not "The Internet [serious business]", however if you happen to post in the serious topics bit, you can be sure you will be called on your beliefs.

We're rigid intellectuals because we require evidence/proof for why people think the way they do? Or we're rigid intellectuals because we present evidence against bizarre conspiracy theories?

I understand exactly where DI is coming from, because if someone came and said a whole load of stuff that was false in my area of expertise (philosophy) you can be sure I would want to correct them.

Further more, I know the New Age movement isn't interested in facts and truth, but rather on how things make you feel; doesn't change the fact there is truth, and that pretty much all of what they believe is disproved, whether they like that or not. Indeed, every encounter with the New Age movement I've had has just shown that it is charlatans taking advantage and making money out of people who would believe them. Unfortunately experience tells me that those who believe things on no logical grounds, cannot be persuaded with the use of truth and facts - they will refute all shown to them.

Is it a stupid idea to contact them? Probably, if not for any danger, it would be futile and a waste of time.

Agreed.

Totenkopf
02-09-2010, 11:42 AM
...those who believe things on no logical grounds, cannot be persuaded with the use of truth and facts - they will refute all shown to them.

Kind of like the believers in anthrpogenic global warming....*rimshot* :D

Seriously, though, perhaps aliens exist, perhaps not. We shouldn't, however, conflate technological advancement with benevolence or being "civilized". Any other race out there may be as aggressive as us and possibly even more amoral than we are at times. Perhaps they are even too busy fighting amongst themselves to be concerned with a backwater planet like Earth. But, then again, someone always has to be first. Perhaps we'll be the aliens that others await or fear.

Darth Avlectus
02-09-2010, 06:13 PM
Eh? Firstly, I'm really not "The Internet [serious business]", however if you happen to post in the serious topics bit, you can be sure you will be called on your beliefs.

Don't mistake: I have some rather high regard for the concept of research as a whole.

*brevity*
No problems here with DI.

Just in general I only try to ...lighten the tone here by simply throwing a bone of inquiry or supposition.

Further more, I know the New Age movement isn't interested in facts and truth, but rather on how things make you feel; doesn't change the fact there is truth, and that pretty much all of what they believe is disproved, whether they like that or not. Indeed, every encounter with the New Age movement I've had has just shown that it is charlatans taking advantage and making money out of people who would believe them. Unfortunately experience tells me that those who believe things on no logical grounds, cannot be persuaded with the use of truth and facts - they will refute all shown to them.

Well, I suppose there's another reason I remain detached from it all: Being BS'ed one too many times IRL. Though facts are only facts, it's what someone says with them that makes all the difference.

Agreed.

Glad to hear it. :)

Web Rider
02-09-2010, 06:19 PM
Is it a stupid idea to contact them? Probably, if not for any danger, it would be futile and a waste of time.

I don't understand the fear or hesitance. I'm not saying aliens are going to be cute little green men who only want to help out mankind, but really, they said the same thing about not exploring West of Europe, because either A: nothing is out there, or B: it's really dangerous.

And look what we found, whole continents of people to kil...I mean enslav...I mean uh, yeah....::

Really assuming mankind ever gets into space, I would wonder if aliens would have more to fear from us than us from them.

Darth Avlectus
02-10-2010, 04:32 AM
I guess I can't say anything about it without making an assumption or presumption.

If nothing exists out there, then there is no reason to be afraid. I say (eventually) Carp'e Diem! Let's set sail in outer space.

We don't know for sure...

If there ARE aliens:

Non self aware--I do hope they aren't parasites or vicious ferrile animals.

If they are self aware, I do believe they know and understand universal and self evident truths as we do. It's also entirely possible they may be on a whole other plane of existence. We don't really know one way or another.
Just may not be able to communicate with us in a way we readily understand.

Any evidence we have that they even exist is shady at best, possibly b/c of coverup. (Maybe, maybe not. *shrugs*) And I'm not pursuing it even if it is true and supressed b/c I don't want to get the living crap beat out of me by a CIA agent and unconditionally taken into custody never to see daylight again.


When navigating uncharted territory, the wisest gambles are the best ones. Even so, it's all still by chance. There's much to be gained, agreed there. Yet so much to be lost--possibly more than what we might gain.

So, at what cost are we expanding and reaching outward?

W.R.T. Contacting them: If it was *only* at the risk of the one or ones doing it, fine. However, if it is drawing attention to our whole planet, that's potentially risking everyone's well being. In desperation I might say go for it. Otherwise...let's not tread without caution.

Space exploration: Simply not economical for a lot of reasons. Aside from sooo many risks associated from mining asteroid colonies etc. for raw ore and other materials, the world's other nations may be at war with us out in space. Not a pretty picture. Though I can see a necessity eventually coming into play here before long. thus forcing nations to cooperate.

All things considered, aliens probably don't want contact with us, and yes, are probably scared as hell of crashing in the backyard of a hungry hillbilly who does (god only knows what) with them first.

But if there's one possibly servile species, who's to say there isn't another more dominant species whom WE should be wary of?

That's why I question sometimes if God didn't have a partition here in the physical realm, in outer space, as a means to help achieve his bidding for creation and possibly other reasons. A tech/peacekeeper team if you will. Gives a whole new meaning of "watching after us".
Before all of you shoot me to death: The preceding was merely of wondering and theoretical supposition given certain hypothetical considerations. Keeping options on the table while not contradicting "the word". YES It is probably a most "liberal" display that you have ever seen even from me. Happy now?

You know, I'm thinking I should start a thread on the subject of Proof whether or not IF extra terrestrials do or don't exist, as I'd love to let people draw their own conclusions based on debate over evidence, both actual and circumstantial. I know I've a trinket to contribute about EM repulsion relevant to spacecraft mobility. Not sure what it ultimately means in the end, though.