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True_Avery
03-07-2010, 10:44 AM
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=200464

Hey, everyone remember that one time Acorn supposedly did that illegal thing by helping that guy try to pimp underage girls?

Yeah, everyone, turns out that may have been fake, or at least very heavily edited. As in, its quite possible everything in the video was spliced together, audio added, and, most importantly, he not wearing the pimp outfit he claimed he wore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O%27Keefe

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/03/01/acorn_cleared
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/03/01/2010-03-01_bklyn_acorn_cleared_over_giving_illegal_advice_ on_how_to_hide_money_from_prostit.html#ixzz0gxvUk4 eO
http://www.publicopiniononline.com/localnews/ci_14527659
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/02/nyregion/02acorn.html
http://gothamist.com/2010/03/02/acorn_cleared_by_brooklyn_da_in_pim.php


“We never claimed that he went in with a pimp costume,” said Giles. “That was b-roll. It was purely b-roll. He was a pimp, I was a prostitute, and we were walking in front of government buildings to show how the government was whoring out the American people.”

For everyone out there that doesn't know what that means, B-roll means that footage was edited in later. It is also a bold faced lie because he said explicitly multiple times in Fox News interviews and his own site he wore his Pimp Outfit.

"Wow. What a six month's it's been! I want to start off with a... I have to apologize to the nation because, uh, the pimp in the pimp and prostitute video apparently wasn't dressed like a flamboyant pimp. I am so sorry this nation --- uh, for --- I don't know what to say."
-Andrew Breitbart

The two employees that were fired claim he walked in with a button-down white shirt and dress pants.

"made the hidden camera video edited it to suggest that James O'Keefe was posing as the woman's pimp, the couple actually told ACORN employees he was trying to protect her from the pimp"

It is also very important with this new bit of information arising after James was arrested for attempted wiretap to go back and rewatch the videos. You never see James, and you almost never see his "hoe" either. Much of what James says, which is the supposedly linked "child prostitution", is off camera and most of what he says is not acknowledged at all, except by the girl off camera. There are also clear edits in the middle of many of these women's sentences.

The video clearly shows they talking about some problem with someone, perhaps a pimp, threatening them. Notice how in the video they never put the "children" in the same context as "prostitutes", that every scene is spliced together, and there are conflicting points being made in the video between "house taxes" and a pimp threatening them and the Acorn employees, seemingly, lending a hand to the, supposed, "hoe" on how to avoid him.

In fact, much of the initial questions are drowned out by audio, there audio marks where muting has been done and, the big kicker, they absolutely refuse to release the original video clips and are only giving the very, very heavily edit "journalism" video with the misleading opening of him walking into Acorn with a pimp outfit, which he states on Fox News he wore into their offices.

Here is an analysis of the transcripts, from his site, and what was edited in the videos:
http://www.acorn.org/fileadmin/HomePageNews/2009Dec/Video_Transcript_Analysis_withExcperts.pdf

Here is where the lies begin and where America got duped by a lying sack of ****:

1) The "prostitute" told the loan counselor that her pimp had “ all these 13, 14,15 year old girls from El Salvador and that’s what—I need to protect them like I know what its like and I have to protect them and like give them somewhere to live."

Where as, in the video, he carefully sliced that scene together to infer that they were giving him permission to pimp underage girls himself.

2) While their press releases claim they were posing as a “prostitute and a pimp,” the transcripts show that O’Keefe consistently introduced himself as Giles’ boyfriend trying to protect her.

So, this adds further problem to him claiming he walked in with a -pimp- outfit, claiming to be a pimp in the video, and claiming to want to sell young girls. He did none of these things. He wore normal clothing and claimed he was her boyfriend trying to save her form an made up pimp.

3) In each of the cases, the ACORN staff advised the prostitute to pay taxes, not to evade them.

His own transcripts contradict what he edited himself, and the women saying.

4) The San Diego office reported the duo to the police. In the San Diego office, where O’Keefe/Giles raised the topic of smuggling underage prostitutes across the border, the ACORN worker called the police.

Brings a whole new light to his journalism, doesn't it?

5) The San Bernardino video was a scam on the duo. In the San Bernardino office, the ACORN worker, finding their stories ridiculous, met them with her own outrageous tales. The ACORN worker spins tales of a sordid past, including murdering her husband. While Giles and O’Keefe had the tapes for a month before releasing them, they never conducted any kind of check of the claims. Within 24 hours of the videos’ release, the police had confirmed that no such murder had taken place, and that the worker’s two ex-husbands were alive and well. San Bernardino resident Jim Miller, who lives near ACORN's office and is also featured in the video giving business advice, said he thought the "whole thing was a preposterous production."

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention to all of you that he put this together and the news bought it like no-ones business without fact checking the video in the slightest.

6. Child prostitution claims are applied to several of the videos, with no evidence in the transcripts. While the New York and Washington DC videos are each given the title by O’Keefe of “ACORN Child Prostitution Investigation,” in fact, in neither of these cases do the duo claim they are planning to engage in child prostitution, and no advice is given. In New York, Giles states that her abusive pimp is bringing girls over and she wants to protect them and give them a home to escape from the pimp. Of course as mentioned above, in San Diego, the police were notified, and in San Bernardino, the whole video was seen by the employee for the farce that it was.
I already made a point of this above, but nowhere in the video NOR his transcripts is it EVER eluded to he is trying to make a child prostitute ring. The only evidence we have of this is his voice, off camera, to which he is never responded to by anyone on camera.

And, again, they had the police called on them in San Diego for trying to entrap, and they were outed in San Bernardine and Philadelphia as frauds. I don't recall those being mentioned by anyone when this first aired, nor do I think, now, that Fox or anything else ever read his transcripts before hailing him a journalistic jesus.

Oh, I also forgot to mention that he is/was being sued by Acorn because, as it turns out, hiding a camera/mic and recording people is against the law. I believe we call it wiretapping, something he is currently under FBI investigation for.

A smaller known story, here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,551163,00.html

This was also faked in the same way, with clever editing, voice over work, and blatant contradictions in the transcript.

NOTE: Because O’Keefe has refused to release the actual complete videotapes, we don’t know for sure that even the transcripts he has released (via his website) are complete.
Quoted because I really want to make this point clear. He already getting ready to sit on federal charges, has had the cops called on him for trying to entrap employees before, been outed before, and lied about his pimp costume, and has contradicting logs all over the place.

And, ontop of all of this, he refuses to give up the original, unedited tapes.

Read through the PDF yourself, go watch the videos, then read the transcripts, and also his audio logs.

So, lets look over the damage this elaborate lie has helped push:

- Multiple Acorn employees were fired, and most likely their own reputations as employees damaged permanently.
- The damage was so severe that Acorn had to close in multiple areas, had to change their name in others to save what was left of their reputation, and cost them a lot of money.
- Closing these areas means that thousands are cut off from their services.
- The House of Representatives voted to eliminate Federal funding to ACORN on September 17, although both resolutions were later nullified in a federal court ruling that the measures were an unconstitutional bill of attainder.
- The New York City Council suspended all ACORN grants while Brooklyn District Attorney Charles Hynes conducted an investigation, costing both ACORN and tax payers money.
- On September 28, Bank of America suspended financing ACORN Housing in response to the various scandals.
- A broken reputation further broken by news media that refused to investigate before claiming their discovery as fact.

James Keefe is a lying criminal who, through his own flavor of "journalism" that was patted on the back by Fox and is still being defended by the Teabaggers, ruined the jobs of multiple employees and tarnished the reputation and funding of a community group probably beyond repair.

He released a clearly heavily edited video that the news media grabbed onto and reported as news. He released a video of an employee saying she killed her husband, which was later proven to be false and misleading as well, which was also reported by the news as fact before anyone even fact checked that her husband was actually dead.

You were, most likely, completely lied to. Spoonfed by the media information that was never researched, never fact checked, and never confirmed.

It was just accepted as completely true.

Makes you wonder how much fact checking the News media... or anyone really does before throwing something onto your television.

Jae Onasi
03-07-2010, 12:03 PM
About as good as the fact-checking by CBS with Bush, looks like. Good job, journalists. You lose more credibility by the moment. However, there's enough hard evidence about Acorn's fraud that despite the Fox hyperbole, I'm inclined to believe that at least some of it's true. The voter registration cards don't lie, even if the video does.

mimartin
03-07-2010, 12:08 PM
The voter registration cards don't lie, even if the video does.

And they don't vote either.

Jae Onasi
03-07-2010, 12:17 PM
And they don't vote either.
So they only committed one crime (voter registration fraud) instead of two crimes (registration fraud + voter fraud). I don't see how that makes what Acorn did any better.

Totenkopf
03-07-2010, 12:21 PM
However, there's enough hard evidence about Acorn's fraud that despite the Fox hyperbole, I'm inclined to believe that at least some of it's true. The voter registration cards don't lie, even if the video does.

I concur. Interestingly, the "B-roll" issue aside, I never got the impression he was dressed like Huggy Bear, but in fact somewhat preppy. The next step, if there is one, would be to have them reveal what they've got, compare it to what ACORN claims are valid logs and let the chips fall where they may. Either way, ACORN is still too much of a liability to be a worthy partner for any govt activity. Right now it still seems like a game of he-said/she-said.

mimartin
03-07-2010, 12:24 PM
Acorn is just as accountable of voter fraud as any other organization that pays temporary employees to register voters per the number of Registration Cards they fill out. It isn’t a case of voter fraud it is a case of employees wanting to get paid for nothing.

According to FakeNews FoxNews FakeNews, he was wearing the pimp outfit.

Totenkopf
03-07-2010, 12:29 PM
Even assuming it were merely as benign as you believe, it still seems woefully apparent that ACORN had a lot of that going on throughout the country. So, if you want to write it off as a "quality control problem", it's still sufficient proof of incompetence and neglect on the part of that corporation, thus rendering them too toxic to be dependable.

Jae Onasi
03-07-2010, 12:31 PM
Acorn is just as accountable of voter fraud as any other organization that pays temporary employees to register voters per the number of Registration Cards they fill out. It isnít a case of voter fraud it is a case of employees wanting to get paid for nothing.That's like saying the optical corporation isn't responsible for any fraud committed by the salespeople in my office, or that your insurance corp. isn't responsible if one of your agents outright lies.
It's irrelevant if those employees are temporary or permanent, they're still Acorn's employees. It's Acorn's responsibility for making sure those employees are vetted properly and for turning in accurate registration cards--Acorn is the one with the gov't contract, not the temp workers. It's obvious Acorn at best didn't care about checking the cards, and at worst endorsed this activity.

True_Avery
03-07-2010, 12:33 PM
Gonna be honest, I'm more interested in the fact that the media ****ing lied to my face than ACORN's "Han solo" cards.

Personally I think its a little bit more of a problem considering how easily it was eaten up. The suit was a lie, the context of the video was a lie, and it was never mentioned he had already done this multiple times before and been exposed as a fraud. What he was doing was illegal, yet the media still gave him a pat on the back and a gold star and mic.

Then his video was used in a smear campaign without ever being validated, confirmed, researched, etc. Hell, without the original tapes the media had to take it ON HIS WORD that it was right, which cost people their jobs. His word, by the way, that he contradicts in his own transcripts and his own word that has caused police intervention that has proven him distinctly wrong.

So they only committed one crime (voter registration fraud) instead of two crimes (registration fraud + voter fraud). I don't see how that makes what Acorn did any better.
And for that, yes, they are getting their due credit for now.

However, I'd prefer them ruin their own reputation instead of this lying twit making up reasons... especially reasons as heinous as child prostitution.

Interestingly, the "B-roll" issue aside, I never got the impression he was dressed like Huggy Bear, but in fact somewhat preppy.
Neither did I, but he and the news still claimed he did.

The next step, if there is one, would be to have them reveal what they've got, compare it to what ACORN claims are valid logs and let the chips fall where they may.
Hopefully we'll be seeing these videos soon since he's under investigation right now. I'm sure with this latest news ACORN will be happy to press charges for the tapes.

If it turns out he really did splice it up more than is obvious I hope he gets sued for everything he'll ever have. I wouldn't really mind the news stations getting pulled down a little as well.

ACORN claims are valid logs
They're on his blog site thing if you'd like to read them.

Right now it still seems like a game of he-said/she-said.
This is a game of what he-said/he-said.

He claims he wore the suit. He didn't. He claims he asked to smuggle children in and sell them. Well, his own transcripts claim he said another pimp already had the children. He says he was her pimp. The transcripts say he is her boyfriend trying to protect her from a prostitution ring. He claims an ACORN employee killed her ex-husband. Ex-husband is alive asking "what?", along with the police. He claims they aid prostitution, federal investigation came up with nothing... Except his highly edited video.

ACORN didn't even really have to do any work. He is contradicting his own story.

mimartin
03-07-2010, 12:46 PM
Acorn is just as accountable of voter fraud as any other organization...


That's like saying the optical corporation isn't responsible for any fraud committed by the salespeople in my office, or that your insurance corp. isn't responsible if one of your agents outright lies.
It's irrelevant if those employees are temporary or permanent, they're still Acorn's employees. It's Acorn's responsibility for making sure those employees are vetted properly and for turning in accurate registration cards--Acorn is the one with the gov't contract, not the temp workers. It's obvious Acorn at best didn't care about checking the cards, and at worst endorsed this activity. No, what I wrote was nothing like saying that.

Jae Onasi
03-07-2010, 01:07 PM
I agree that ACORN has every right to sue for libel/slander/defamation on this one since the guys did alter the vids in a way that was certainly defamatory, aside from grossly unethical and completely dishonest. I'm not trying to give them a free pass on this one. I wouldn't be surprised to see Fox sued over this, too, and if they knew the vids were fake and did nothing, they are in very hot water, as is any other news organization that did the same thing.

There are three different issues on this--should Acorn be allowed to return as a gov't contractor? Nope, not with the gross systemic fraud they were committing aside from this issue. Any other organization that commits voter registration fraud, conservative or liberal, should not be allowed gov't contracts. I don't want my tax dollars paying for a company who doesn't care about doing the job in a legal manner.

Issue two--should the guys who created fraudulent videos be brought to task? Absolutely. This behavior should be squashed so hard that the roaches are nothing left but little smears on the sidewalk.

Issue three--should the news organizations be brought to task for not doing their own fact-checking, and just posting this crap without verifying it? Definitely, and especially Fox, and specifically Hannity, who used it non-stop in his anti-Obama rants. Those guys owe Acorn and Obama a huge apology.

Darth Avlectus
03-07-2010, 03:30 PM
Yeah, if ACORN is actually doing something wrong, I don't want them involved in our voting system. Period.

Totenkopf
03-07-2010, 05:35 PM
Regardless of how this turns out, ACORN is a corrupt organization that should be barred (in whatever future incarnation it reconstitutes itself) from future participation with govt activities. If it turns out that he out-Alinskied the left, good for him. However, he will have to live with the consequences of his actions and Fox News (and any others) will have to weather any hits they rightfully take for either being duped or playing along. Given the crap that progressives have inflicted on this country (whether as republicans or democrats), I can't get too excited about the hit ACORN has taken.

mimartin
03-08-2010, 12:23 PM
Yes, ACORN is an evil corrupt organization for trying to find helping the poor that should be a capital offense. Everyone within the organization was corrupt and their evil socialist views must be destroyed. As a matter of fact since I volunteered for Habit for Humanity, I must be just as evil.:rolleyes:

Lord of Hunger
03-08-2010, 01:16 PM
There were already enough frauds committed by Acorn for them to deserve what they got. And regarding this incident, Jae said all I was going to say and more.

Salzella
03-08-2010, 01:21 PM
Those guys owe Acorn and Obama a huge apology.

yeah, they can join the queue behind the whole of humanity.

Totenkopf
03-08-2010, 02:10 PM
Yes, ACORN is an evil corrupt organization for trying to find helping the poor that should be a capital offense. Everyone within the organization was corrupt and their evil socialist views must be destroyed. As a matter of fact since I volunteered for Habit for Humanity, I must be just as evil.:rolleyes:

Yeah, and John Gotti did a lot for the neighborhood he lived in, so what. :rolleyes: However, while I think Jimmy Carter is a giant douchebag, I don't have problems with you having volunteered w/HforH. Probably only the only worthwhile thing he's been involved with since leaving the WH.

mimartin
03-08-2010, 02:19 PM
There were already enough frauds committed by Acorn for them to deserve what they got.
so saith Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/08/ann-coulter-under-investi_n_165007.html).
:patriot:

Yeah, and John Gotti did a lot for the neighborhood he lived in, so what. :rolleyes: Was John Gotti's primary reason for existence to assist the poor? No.

So despite calling ACORN a “corrupt organization” your above comparison makes it sound as if don’t even know what their primary business was. :thmbup1:

Totenkopf
03-08-2010, 02:48 PM
Was John Gotti's primary reason for existence to assist the poor? No.

So despite calling ACORN a ďcorrupt organizationĒ your above comparison makes it sound as if donít even know what their primary business was. :thmbup1:

Nice try, dude. Was just giving back the flippant sarcasm you sent my way. :devsmoke: Still, doesn't matter what you publicly say your mission is, crime is crime. After that it's all just a matter of degree. ;) Afterall, just b/c something claims to have noble intentions doesn't A)make it so nor B) guaruntee that it will always remain so.

mur'phon
03-08-2010, 03:02 PM
I freely admit that I'm not too familiar with ACORN, so feel free to correct me/add info. What ACORN has done wrong seems to be to simply make an extremely common mistake, having an incentive system that lead to terrible behaviour. While yes, they should have been able to catch it, it again seems like an extremely common oversight on their part. Similar cases pf both mistakes include just about the entire banking systems incentives and half a million NGO projects that recieved/s government funding. So cutting them off from all future govt contracts, seems a wee bit extreeme, punish, yes, but don't make it permanent to help them learn from their mistakes.

Lord of Hunger
03-08-2010, 03:10 PM
so saith Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/08/ann-coulter-under-investi_n_165007.html).
:patriot:
Yes, feel free to tie my views into those extremists and be completely counter productive. Doesn't that make you feel great?

My sources for my original statement were several major networks during the 2008 election, FYI.

And frankly, it's a sad thing that we have come to the point where :patriot: is associated with extremism and is used as a derogatory remark.

Darth Avlectus
03-08-2010, 03:20 PM
I freely admit that I'm not too familiar with ACORN, so feel free to correct me/add info. What ACORN has done wrong seems to be to simply make an extremely common mistake, having an incentive system that lead to terrible behaviour. While yes, they should have been able to catch it, it again seems like an extremely common oversight on their part. Extremely common mistake, yes, but not an entirely innocent one as they, in their defense, would have you believe. All of them do it, though, so you would be correct in the assumption that it is for tilting the election in their favor. The question here is how they go about it. Malicious or not, cheating is still cheating.

Similar cases pf both mistakes include just about the entire banking systems incentives and half a million NGO projects that recieved/s government funding. So cutting them off from all future govt contracts, seems a wee bit extreeme, punish, yes, but don't make it permanent to help them learn from their mistakes.

I suppose that is sensible enough. Only time will tell.

mimartin
03-08-2010, 03:24 PM
Yes, feel free to tie my views into those extremists and be completely counter productive. Doesn't that make you feel great? :lol:


And frankly, it's a sad thing that we have come to the point where :patriot: is associated with extremism and is used as a derogatory remark.

I did not associate :patriot: with anything of the sort.

For the record I never said anything where ACORN should get off for the voters registration fraud. I just find it funny that we are condemning the entire organization and all those associated with being corrupt. It is like people don’t even understand the concept of different divisions within an organization.

Or are you all saying that voter registration fraud makes the entire origination corrupt? Is the U.S. military corrupt because of what a few soldiers did at Abu Ghraib? Was everyone at Enron corrupt? Is everyone at Halliburton corrupt?

Still, doesn't matter what you publicly say your mission is, crime is crime. After that it's all just a matter of degree. ;) Afterall, just b/c something claims to have noble intentions doesn't A)make it so nor B) guaruntee that it will always remain so. So I'm guessing I know your answers to the above quesions. :(

Totenkopf
03-08-2010, 04:33 PM
Problem is systemic corruption, mimartin. ACORN is at best incompetent and irresponsible and has been demonstrated to be so in more than just the last presidential race. Hell, Lewis was purportedly brought in/elevated to clean a lot of it up. Apparently she may not be cut out for it. As to the answers to your series of questions, as corrupt as you think ACORN is. ;) Btw, not saying that every corrupt organization axiomatically means that every employee is inherently corrupt. The IRS is corrupt, as is Congress, but it doesn't mean that every member of the organization is as well. Same goes for unions and every kind of human organization you can probably think of (including scientists and religious leaders).

Q
03-08-2010, 05:00 PM
After O'Keefe's recent arrest for a Watergate-style break-in, it should come as no surprise that a smokescreen of FUD is being thrown up by the left to muddy the waters in regard to ACORN's malfeasance. This is damage control, pure and simple, and, to be honest, I was expecting this to happen a lot sooner, as it's been some months since O'Keefe's arrest.

Here's my take:
Both ACORN and O'Keefe represent the two extremes of our political spectrum. Is it really so shocking that they're both corrupt as hell?
And frankly, it's a sad thing that we have come to the point where :patriot: is associated with extremism and is used as a derogatory remark.
Heh. Welcome to LF. :(

@below: I was referring to something else entirely. Sorry for the confusion.

Web Rider
03-08-2010, 07:24 PM
To be honest, I hadn't heard of this video in the first place. As soon as the Right started using ACORN to attack Obama, I just started tuning everyone out when they mentioned it. As much as voter fraud or accusing someone of child prostitution is an important issue, ACORN has been nothing but a massive red herring for the Obama administration. There really are more important things on the table, so to be frank, I don't really care.

Darth Avlectus
03-08-2010, 07:35 PM
:lol:

For the record I never said anything where ACORN should get off for the voters registration fraud. I just find it funny that we are condemning the entire organization and all those associated with being corrupt. It like people donít even understand the concept of different divisions within an organization.

Or are you all saying that voter registration fraud makes the entire origination corrupt?
I don't specifically remember saying that but since we're on with it...let's see what I said:

Yeah, if ACORN is actually doing something wrong, I don't want them involved in our voting system. Period.

Hm. I meant in the context that all of these organizations cheat to some extent or another, they're all dirty. It's kind of a dirty line of work.

Harsh though it is, I don't believe I'm being unfair b/c I look at all organizations like acorn to be corrupt at some level or another. More just "I'm not terribly surprised" response to it...

There can be good people working for a bad organization--they're good until they decide to go along with it as a conscious decision. When and where ever that might be.

Extremely common mistake, yes, but not an entirely innocent one as they, in their defense, would have you believe. All of them do it, though, so you would be correct in the assumption that it is for tilting the election in their favor. The question here is how they go about it. Malicious or not, cheating is still cheating.



I suppose that is sensible enough. Only time will tell.

Here I believe they shouldn't get off on the cheating for which they were caught. I don't believe I'm ensung anything else. :raise:

mimartin
03-08-2010, 08:27 PM
GTA I was not accusing you of writing that. I actually agree with you more in this thread than most of the others. If someone is guilty of a crime then I am all for punishing them. If a organization or corporation is guilty of a crime then I am all for punishing everyone involved. What I am not for is throwing out the baby with the bathwater just because it is easiest thing to do. I am also against punishing someone for a crime they did not commit just because they committed other crimes they were already punished for.

For the record I am a patriot, I love my country just as much as anyone on the other side as the political spectrum.

Arcesious
03-09-2010, 01:12 AM
I wonder how much else has been bold-faced lying/misinformation. Probably a lot. The only thing I think that we need to be careful of here though is getting into that confirmation bias fueled conspiracy theorist mode of thinking. I'm not saying that that's what happened here with this debunk of the ACORN stuff, as this looks like a pretty well thought out researching of the whole thing.

Still, I think this brings up the issue of conspiracy hypotheses, (why give them the credit of the title of 'theory', anyways?) as misinformation can be a big issue for anyone looking for the truth. I often have found myself trying to decide if a certain conspiracy hypothesis is true or not, but the lack of solid facts always seems to leave me where I started - undecided. It's a pointless process without solid facts: attempt to prove hypothesis, attempt to debunk proof, attempt to debunk the debunking, attempt to debunk the debunk of the debunking, etc, etc.

I hope that history books in the future will shed light on the secrets of these years when I'm older.

Ping
03-09-2010, 05:37 PM
ACORN certainly isn't a perfect organization, but I am extremely angered at James O'Keefe for spreading lies. In my eyes, as soon as you demonize an organization through slander, then you yourself have become that demon you're trying to portray. As far as I'm concerned, O'Keefe can go to hell.

Det. Bart Lasiter
03-09-2010, 05:51 PM
Yes, feel free to tie my views into those extremists and be completely counter productive. Doesn't that make you feel great?

My sources for my original statement were several major networks during the 2008 election, FYI.

And frankly, it's a sad thing that we have come to the point where :patriot: is associated with extremism and is used as a derogatory remark.

:nvr4get:

Q
03-10-2010, 04:42 PM
^Case in point. :indif:

And, in case anyone failed to notice, voter registration fraud is a form of lying. I thought that it was worth pointing that out before this thread is completely given over to partisan bias.

mimartin
03-10-2010, 04:54 PM
And, in case anyone failed to notice, voter registration fraud is a form of lying. I thought that it was worth pointing that out before this thread is completely given over to partisan bias.

I'd agree with that, but does a few people lying automatically mean everyone associated with them are lairs? Many of that worked/volunteered for ACORN had nothing to do with voter registration, so are they guilty too? However this thread is about a fake video, not about voter registration fraud.

Darth Avlectus
03-10-2010, 06:29 PM
^^^No, however I still think they ought to have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business, just like anyone else. Thaty way despite their reputation they sort of have a new slate to start from.

Q
03-10-2010, 08:20 PM
I still think they ought to have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business...
...or receive government funding.

I don't particularly like the idea of my tax dollars being used to finance fraud. :carms:

Liverandbacon
03-10-2010, 08:46 PM
Obviously, ACORN shouldn't be held responsible for the video, since it's become totally unclear what was fabricated and what wasn't. Although the entire organization wasn't responsible for causing the voting fraud, such fraud still makes the organization unreliable, and ACORN should take some time separated from the voting process in order to clean up its internal messes (any punishment beyond cutting them out of the election process would be over the top).

~Real, non-brolled, 100% pimp Bishop Liver C-Note Bacon signin' out.

Web Rider
03-11-2010, 01:19 AM
^^^No, however I still think they ought to have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business, just like anyone else. Thaty way despite their reputation they sort of have a new slate to start from.

It wouldn't help, even if they did, the people using their mistakes would go "well, back in 2009 ACORN did this! Oh they say they've changed their ways, but even though I have no evidence, my gut tells me they're the same!" Once their tarnished, they're tarnished for good.

...or receive government funding.

I don't particularly like the idea of my tax dollars being used to finance fraud. :carms:

Then the list of who you think we should stop funding is probably VERY VERY long.

Q
03-11-2010, 02:02 AM
That it is. I wonder how much money could be saved if all of the corruption were cleaned up. Maybe enough to pay off the deficit instead of increasing it every year?

mimartin
03-11-2010, 02:35 AM
^^^No, however I still think they ought to have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business, just like anyone else.Like whoelse percisely? Ann Coulter? The Banking Industry? Halliburton? The U.S. Army? The Supreme Court?

Darth Avlectus
03-11-2010, 04:13 AM
Like whoelse percisely?

Precisely anyone involved in actually registering voters. Not only does that go for ACORN, but their counterparts as well.

Ann Coulter? The Banking Industry? Halliburton? The U.S. Army? The Supreme Court?

So to put me on the defensive, you imply I'm just giving acorn a hard time b/c they're democrat based and got caught in the act--gotcha.
Well I think George Bush is a coward and he was a republican.

As to picking specific people out, sure I wish we would do that. Why don't we do that?

Unfortunately, hate to admit it but Web has a point:
It wouldn't help, even if they did, the people using their mistakes would go "well, back in 2009 ACORN did this! Oh they say they've changed their ways, but even though I have no evidence, my gut tells me they're the same!" Once their tarnished, they're tarnished for good.

The mistrust once there is always there, yes. Frankly, you screw with the voting system, you ought to go down for it. Presumed innocent until proven guilty, though.

Then I guess it's back to square one. So either we choose:
let them continue with corruption and vested interests or
cut them down and have another rise to take their place.

Take your pick. And I guess if we're going by this standard, firing only the few who did it wouldn't mean much if later on the same sort of thing is uncovered again. I'm still all for firing the specific douchebags, though.

Despite that there isn't always evidence, suppose the person saying that...well, long and short of it, consider the source.

Or we could just pretend people mean well and go on like we have been.

Totenkopf
03-11-2010, 05:02 AM
It wouldn't help, even if they did, the people using their mistakes would go "well, back in 2009 ACORN did this! Oh they say they've changed their ways, but even though I have no evidence, my gut tells me they're the same!" Once their tarnished, they're tarnished for good.


No one said redemption is easy. Fortunately, no one has to have unanimity of public opinion on their side to "be rehabilitated" legally. As to ACORN, some other group will merely rise in its place if it disbands and probably most of the same people. Same Bat time, same Bat channel. :xp:

mimartin
03-11-2010, 09:08 AM
Precisely anyone involved in actually registering voters. Not only does that go for ACORN, but their counterparts as well. So not only those involved in fraudulently registering voters, but the people/supervisors but the entire origination should also “have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business, just like anyone else” Is that what you are writing? Because it seems to be what your implying. So to put me on the defensive, you imply I'm just giving acorn a hard time b/c they're democrat based and got caught in the act--gotcha. Other than Ann Coulter, what do any of my examples have to do with Republicans or Democrats? I’m saying you are giving ACORN a harder time than you are Ann Coulter (for the same offense) because there is no FAKE VIDEO depicting Ann Coulter as helping underage prostitution, so there was no non-stop coverage all over the web and FoxNews stating how evil and corrupt Ann Coulter allegedly is for months on end.

While I do agree with WebRider up to a point, I however believe 1). Those not involved in corrupt behavior don’t need to change. Not everyone that was involved with ACORN was corrupt. 2.) I also disagree that people cannot change. I just believe for change to happen it must be their decision and not something that can be forced upon them.

I also find it extremely funny that the people that caught most of the instances of voters’ fraud by ACORN was ACORN and then they reported it to authorities for investigation and prosecution. Yea, sound like an organization full of low lives and scum to me.

As to ACORN, some other group will merely rise in its place if it disbands and probably most of the same people. Same Bat time, same Bat channel. :xp:I certainly hope another organization will rise up to help the plight of the poor with housing and political matters. It is pretty easy for the President of Well Fargo to get a meeting with his/her representative, I don’t believe the same can be said for a single mother making minimum wage as a waitress. Organizations that give the poor a voice are a good thing.

Wait that is a socialist mentality isn’t it?

Totenkopf
03-11-2010, 11:21 AM
I certainly hope another organization will rise up to help the plight of the poor with housing and political matters. It is pretty easy for the President of Well Fargo to get a meeting with his/her representative, I don’t believe the same can be said for a single mother making minimum wage as a waitress. Organizations that give the poor a voice are a good thing.

Wait that is a socialist mentality isn’t it?

Not necessarily. Private organizations helping the poor isn't of itself socialist and is even admirable. Creatin' and enshrining a public version of that "help", is. Of course it doesn't help when organizations like ACORN, SEIU and such tilt very heavily to the political left and want to create new entitlements at everyone else's expense.

So not only those involved in fraudulently registering voters, but the people/supervisors but the entire origination should also “have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business, just like anyone else” Is that what you are writing? Because it seems to be what your implying.

Perhaps, like w/Arthur Anderson below, the organizations have done themselves in. Doubt anyone really believes all the accountants (and other employees) there were criminals either. Still, I guess a "gutting investigation" might be one way to seperate the innocent from the guilty.


The most famous scandal case Arthur Anderson scandal was involved in was the fraudulent auditing of Enron. In this case Arthur Anderson shredded vital documents sourcing the audit of Enron which occurred in the year 2002.

This led to further speculation about the fraudulent and corrupt actions of Arthur Anderson scandal. Worldcom became bankrupt after further investigation.

After this vital investigation into American corporations, Arthur Anderson was convicted but the ruling was overturned in the United States Supreme Court.

Due to the downfall of Arthur Anderson, it lost nearly all of its business and clients.

It lost not millions but billions of dollars due to this intense investigation. Although it is still in business and operating under Omega Management and has not as of yet declared bankruptcy, the firm will never reach its past legacy.

Arthur Anderson's motto of "Think straight, talk straight" has forever been tainted in the eyes of Americans corporations. This devastation of fraudulent activity has forever left a deep and painful scar on America 's businesses.

Q
03-11-2010, 11:29 AM
Organizations that give the poor a voice are a good thing.
Who's voice, though? The poor's, or ACORN's?

And I don't think that any organization that tries to influence the vote to its own ends should be receiving government money. Period.

mimartin
03-11-2010, 11:57 AM
Perhaps, like w/Arthur Anderson below, the organizations have done themselves in. Doubt anyone really believes all the accountants (and other employees) there were criminals either. Still, I guess a "gutting investigation" might be one way to seperate the innocent from the guilty.So we should gut the military because of Abu Ghraib? I’d totally agree with you, if we are willing to hold everyone to the same standard.

Who's voice, though? The poor's, or ACORN's? Does the NRA fully represent all its member? Does any organization fully represent all its members? Seems you are trying to put a higher standard on ACORN than any other organization that gives voice to its members? Tell me is ACORN representing that waitress’ interest better than that Wells Fargo Banker?

And I don't think that any organization that tries to influence the vote to its own ends should be receiving government money. Period. And that has to do with what? No, they should not receive money from the government for registering voters, but neither should anyone else that has participated in voter registration fraud.

Totenkopf
03-11-2010, 12:14 PM
So we should gut the military because of Abu Ghraib? Iíd totally agree with you, if we are willing to hold everyone to the same standard.

Perhaps, if Abu Ghraib were more than ONE isolated incident in one AO, you might have a stronger case for a bigger shakeup of things. Still, I guess we'd have to gut the Ways and Means committee in Congress b/c of people like Rangel if we're going to be that inclusive. Maybe dismantling/scaling down a bloated Congress and series of administrative agencies might be a good thing. Hell, I'd even be for a more rigorous investigation of the scientific community in this country and the degree to which massive infusions of money (in the form of grants et al..) into certain issues have impacted or even attempted to impact govt policy. Same goes for unions like AFL-CIO, SEIU, etc...

mimartin
03-11-2010, 12:18 PM
So you are all for investigating organization/institutions with perceived leanings to the left. Got it.:thmbup1:

Totenkopf
03-11-2010, 01:16 PM
As much as you're for going after the perceived right leaning ones. :thmbup1:

mimartin
03-11-2010, 02:02 PM
That is totally not true, I am for the investigation and prosecution of the wrong doer, I am not now nor have I ever advocated that we have a “gutting investigation’ of anyone. IMO those types of witch hunts end up being a huge waste of money and resources (Kenneth Starr anyone). Investigations for mere political gain are just as wrong as the original crime. What I believe should happen is the DA for whatever jurisdiction should investigate and charge the wrong doer with a crime, then a jury should decide their fate. Oh wait, that is how it worked until James Keefe decided to fake the video depicting ACORN as a rogue entity whose goal was to prostitute our children for political gain. FoxNews without proper investigation and without seeing the unedited video used it in propaganda machine against the left.

Jae wrote ealier in this thread: About as good as the fact-checking by CBS with Bush, looks like. I would say this is worse, and my reasoning as nothing to do with the type of document or the lack of verification. When Dan Rather and CBS were caught they reluctantly retracted the story, fired a producer and asked 3 others to resign. The story also forced Dan Rather into early retirement.

Where is FoxNews retraction? How many producers have been fired or force to resign? Is Hannity being forced out?

The only counter discussion I’m seeing is ACORN is evil they committed voter fraud. What does that really have to do with the fake video? Nothing, just a way to muddy up the waters.

machievelli
03-11-2010, 02:42 PM
The problem with the poor and 'enfranchising them' by giving them government stipends is that since the early 30s, the Pauper's Oath was removed.

Under American law (Usually in a legal case both criminal and Civil) a person could stand up in front of the court and state that he could not afford an attorney, at which point the court would appoint one. But it was also used to stop people capable of working from leaving the job market at public expense.

Under the Pauper's oath, you also were not allowed to vote until you were no longer receiving such stipends.

Admittedly with 40% of the population out of work, removing that many voters would skew the elections, as much as leaving them on the rolls now when they can vote for more money. But it was done to have a solid 40% backing the party that passed the bill.

Q
03-11-2010, 03:18 PM
Does the NRA fully represent all its member? Does any organization fully represent all its members?
Probably not, but, last I heard, the NRA is funded by the voluntary contributions of its members. If people don't want to fund them, they don't have to. Not so with ACORN, whose funding is anything but voluntary.
Seems you are trying to put a higher standard on ACORN than any other organization that gives voice to its members?
Well, since they're using my money to buy votes with promises of government handouts, which, BTW, I will also have to help pay for, and all against my will, I believe that I have a right to.
And that has to do with what? No, they should not receive money from the government for registering voters, but neither should anyone else that has participated in voter registration fraud.
But they have, they do, and, apparently, they will continue to do so; all on my dime, and I apparently have no say in it whatsoever.
The only counter discussion I’m seeing is ACORN is evil they committed voter fraud.
To be perfectly honest, I don't give a damn what they do. I just don't appreciate being pigeon-holed into footing the bill for their less-than-honorable schemes.
What does that really have to do with the fake video? Nothing, just a way to muddy up the waters.
That's funny. I could've sworn that muddying the waters was the purpose of this thread in the first place. And the video is fake, now? Not may have been fake? My, how these things progress.


For the record, though, I think that O'Keefe is crooked as hell and that the video probably is embellished and/or fake. If he's willing to commit a federal crime like a Watergate-style beak-in, then faking a video doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.

mimartin
03-11-2010, 04:14 PM
And the video is fake, now? Not may have been fake? My, how these things progress.Using the same standards that the Republicans used against Dan Rather. Actually a little higher since this did go before a DA and the video did not even hold enough water to take it to court. :rolleyes:

Probably not, but, last I heard, the NRA is funded by the voluntary contributions of its members. If people don't want to fund them, they don't have to. Not so with ACORN, whose funding is anything but voluntary. ACORN does have contracts with the Federal Government for services provided. ACORN And Federal Funding
Does ACORN Recieve Federal Funding?
The Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now does not apply for nor does it receive any federal grants.

ACORN has had contracts with other nonprofit organizations to perform work on projects which received federal grant support. For example, ACORN has received contracts to:

• Identify families eligible to receive food stamps and assist them to apply.
• Identify homeowners facing foreclosure and deliver them for housing counseling and loss mitigation services.
• Provide lead paint remediation services to households with children living in older neighborhoods.

The contracts that ACORN receives on these projects are for delivering specific activities, all of which are tax-exempt qualified in accordance with federal grant guidelines. No payments are received until work product has been delivered.

None of ACORN's contracts to perform work on projects receiving federal grant money has provided funding for voter registration.

But that they are not a Federally Funded Organization as you seem to be implying. They are funded by members and foundations (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/02/AR2009100205261.html), like who, the NRA!

Q
03-11-2010, 04:50 PM
From the OP:
- The House of Representatives voted to eliminate Federal funding to ACORN on September 17, although both resolutions were later nullified in a federal court ruling that the measures were an unconstitutional bill of attainder.
Why is this organization getting my money?

mimartin
03-11-2010, 05:15 PM
You can't figure that out of your own?

Congress was trying to cut funding for services rendered, which is why a judge said they could not stop the funding. Like my post and link state ACORN received money from the federal government, not directly, but they still received taxpayer money through another party. If you would had looked at the article attached the taxpayer money amounted to about 10% of ACORN’s budget. Again they were not given the money; they provided a service and were paid only after the service was rendered. If Congress wanted to stop them from receiving future moneys, then they should ban them from being involved in future contracts, not cut off paying them for work they had already done.

True_Avery
03-11-2010, 05:56 PM
From the OP:

Why is this organization getting my money?
From what I understand, nearly all community organizations get a small amount of federal funding if they apply. In this case, helping the impoverished, poor, and poor minorities. The Federal Funding, however, is only given if these community projects are under Federal Contract.

Community Colleges, for example, get some federal funding to help the poor in their area, and the poor minorities in their area receive an education because they are under Contract for students gained. Many charity organizations also receive a little fed funding to help make sure they stay on their feet, since many of them are non-profit in a sense. Basically, its the philosophy that keeping community based organizations that help the poor and poor minorities in their area afloat can help keep an area on its feet, slow down crime rates, etc. Much in the same way of that the police do their work and receive federal funding, community organizations are seen as another helper.

For example, Well Fargo got in a whole lot of trouble roughly 5 years ago for being exposed for refusing and mistreating poor African Americans, namely in area where community organizations like ACORN didn't exist to lend aid. Helping the poor and poor minorities to vote is also need as a necessary aid, as well as things like foreclosures, bankruptcy, loss mitigation.

ACORN, by itself, has helped pass local living wages in in 15 cities, helped rebuild over 2,000 homes after Katrina, helped bus homeless Katrina victims in for voting in the elections, helps with school teacher unions for school funding, textbooks, helps crate charter schools, privatized most of NYC's schools, helps minorities register to vote, helps the poor get into community schools, etc.

The above, with nearly any organization, is opt to recieve a small amount of Federal Funding. Even so, only 10% of ACORN's yearly budget is paid for by the Federal Government with most being donation and contribution.

In other words:
they provided a service and were paid only after the service was rendered. If Congress wanted to stop them from receiving future moneys, then they should ban them from being involved in future contracts, not cut off paying them for work they had already done.
Essentially this. They are paid, in small amount, by services, contracts, etc from the Federal Government. Much like how Schools only receive money on their graduation rates, test scores, and how many kids they have at school very day. A public school loses roughly $300 every day a child is absent from school, for example.

Probably not, but, last I heard, the NRA is funded by the voluntary contributions of its members. If people don't want to fund them, they don't have to. Not so with ACORN, whose funding is anything but voluntary.
90% of Acorn's year budget is contribution from its members, with 10% being funding from the Federal Government paid on services completed. The NRA doesn't receive any Federal money because they render no contract service to the government.

Well, since they're using my money to buy votes with promises of government handouts, which, BTW, I will also have to help pay for, and all against my will, I believe that I have a right to.
They aren't using your money, for the most part. The money you are giving to ACORN is only given once a Federal Contract has been completed in the same sense you pay for kids to go to public school, for roads to be built, and so on. The "handouts" are services and aids primarily funded by contributions from groups like Bank of America... who pulled out of ACORN after the O'Keefe videos aired.

They "buy votes" by helping minorities and the poor to register. The government gives handouts just fine without ACORN.

But they have, they do, and, apparently, they will continue to do so; all on my dime, and I apparently have no say in it whatsoever.
Every organization that collects registrations comes up with many fraudulent registrations, many being duplicates and/or updates on someone's address, information, and so on as stated by the Election Assistance Commission. ACORN has also helped fund investigations into areas with fraudulent votes previously, and fired those whom were found.

They are paid only upon a successful and validated registration. Thus, contact rendered and completed by the group. Votes that are deemed bad are, usually, either mistakes, duplicates, or frauds put in for the station to receive more money than it earned. Nearly 5% of all registrations from any station are fraudulent in some manner.

Voter Registration, by itself, is an imperfect system rendered by imperfect stations. This is universal across the United States. However, it still needs to be done and, if you're going to be angry, be more angry that the system has a 5% to 7% failure rate than the individual stations.

To be perfectly honest, I don't give a damn what they do. I just don't appreciate being pigeon-holed into footing the bill for their less-than-honorable schemes.
Welcome to the United States :p

Essentially, Congress wanted to cut ACORN out of Federal Contracts. Not so much the vaguely defined "federal funding", since when it is worded like that, as it often is by misleading journalists, it almost implies they are just handed money. This is not the case. They have not been cut from government contracts yet because there is insufficient evidence they have done much wrong, and what they did do wrong is actually statistically in the range of "wrong" that every registration station suffers. It is still fraud, but the difference is, well, ACORN was unlucky enough to have a spotlight shown on its muck on a field of muck.

I still think the bigger problem here is that a video that was never verified managed to be placed up as news, and we bought it and, well, so did they. I'm sort of sad this thread went the "is ACORN bad or good?" route since I find it to be a dull and stale argument compared to the fact that, well, the News may not have as much News as they claim. The Banks are a billion times more corrupt than ACORN could ever hope to be regardless.

But, whatever, just my opinion.

Totenkopf
03-11-2010, 06:39 PM
Hmm.....so ACORN is both a victim and just unlucky to be caught in unethical and possibly illegal behavior in a number of states over the course of several elections....

The Banks are a billion times more corrupt than ACORN could ever hope to be regardless.

I guess if you're talking in $$ terms. :xp: Ethically speaking, I find that rather fanciful.

@mimartin--iirc, it was actually GTA that called for the rigorous investigation, not me. I merely added who I think could benefit from similiar treatment....besides the banks, US Army and Halliburton of course.....oh and Ann Coultur (who I don't particularly care for myself). Balance, my friend. Balance. ;)

Q
03-11-2010, 07:00 PM
I don't like Ann Coulter, either. She's obnoxious, and in dire need of a Big Mac.

And topping my list of corrupt organizations that I bitterly resent being forced to subsidize: the United States Congress. :dozey:

Jae Onasi
03-11-2010, 07:33 PM
Where is FoxNews retraction? How many producers have been fired or force to resign? Is Hannity being forced out?

The only counter discussion Iím seeing is ACORN is evil they committed voter fraud. What does that really have to do with the fake video? Nothing, just a way to muddy up the waters.
If they haven't done a retraction, then they need to ASAP, and appropriate actions need to be taken, including an apology to ACORN for airing that without fact-checking. I'm not in control of their HR/PR department, however. I think Rather being forced into early retirement was a bit much when I think an apology for making a mistake would have been sufficient in his particular case, but I'm not in control of their HR/PR departments either.

I generally ignore Ann, she says some rather loony things at times.

As for the OP, Avery had IMd me about my comment 'bye Acorn, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out' awhile back in response to Acorn losing funding after that video and included the link to this thread. I responded to that comment here.

As for investigating fraud--I don't care if it's 10 bucks or 10 billion bucks, fraud is fraud. Bank fraud is a red herring in this case, and it's not relevant to ACORN's malfeasance.

True_Avery
03-11-2010, 08:41 PM
Hmm.....so ACORN is both a victim and just unlucky to be caught in unethical and possibly illegal behavior in a number of states over the course of several elections....
Did I say victim? Point out where I said they were a victim.

I said they were scum in a sea of scum, but they were unlucky enough to have a spotlight put on them. They are unlucky that their voter fraud got pointed out more than, well, the average 5% voter fraud of every other station of any other group in the United States. Does that excuse them? No. Am I implying it should? No.

I'm saying that whining about ACORN got old over a year ago and that I'm a little more, again, interested in the possibility of media information fraud.

I guess if you're talking in $$ terms. :xp: Ethically speaking, I find that rather fanciful.
Was sort of trying to do a play on words there, but yeah. Ethically speaking, I think there is plenty of hyperbole going on right now on both sides of this thread.

Totenkopf
03-11-2010, 09:00 PM
Never said you said that verbatim. The context of much of the content in this thread that defends ACORN is that they are basically an unfairly besmirched entity. Now, since I've already stated that I think that if Fox News has gone along with a smear or been duped that they'll have to take their knocks accordingly (and there's much more that merely 1 or 2 incidents in question), I'm not exactly sure what your beef with me is at this point. Unless it's that my attitude is kind of "so what". Media manipulation has long preceded Fox's debut on the airwaves and will outlive it as long as humanity exists. All you can do is try to pay attention and watch for it. I think that ACORN is corrupt, so I don't really care what the outcome is on this. To me it's in some ways like the Treasury going after Al Capone on tax evasion b/c that was the only way they could get him. Or perhaps a better example is cops who bend or break the law to bring down someone corrupt. You have to discipline/punish the officers, but you also punish the guilty party (not throw out any possibility of a conviction on some legal technicality---even though that is currently the legal MO). If ACORN is forced to "disappear" and rise up phoenix like in another incarnation...big deal.

mimartin
03-11-2010, 09:23 PM
Bank fraud is a red herring in this case, and it's not relevant to ACORN's malfeasance.Just as the discussion of voter registration fraud is to the subject of someone faking a video about ACORN.

True_Avery
03-12-2010, 12:52 AM
Now, since I've already stated that I think that if Fox News has gone along with a smear or been duped that they'll have to take their knocks accordingly (and there's much more that merely 1 or 2 incidents in question), I'm not exactly sure what your beef with me is at this point.
I didn't mean...

Nevermind. At this point I don't know what I want.

Darth Avlectus
03-12-2010, 01:26 AM
So not only those involved in fraudulently registering voters, but the people/supervisors but the entire origination should also “have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business, just like anyone else” Is that what you are writing? Because it seems to be what your implying.

Sorry. I'd have thought you'd be more familiar with construction metaphors: To "gut" is to more or less clear out the undesirable and leave the frame (and any other things desirable) intact. (Are you meaning to say you have never in your life gutted a house for remodel?! :xp:)

So in essence I'm merely echoing excising the corrupt and being allowed back in AFTER and only after that. I guess I should have used terms you are more familiar with, like audit.

Albeit I have quite some cynicism, yes.


Other than Ann Coulter, what do any of my examples have to do with Republicans or Democrats? Well, they were your examples. :giveup:

I’m saying you are giving ACORN a harder time than you are Ann Coulter (for the same offense) because there is no FAKE VIDEO depicting Ann Coulter as helping underage prostitution, so there was no non-stop coverage all over the web and FoxNews stating how evil and corrupt Ann Coulter allegedly is for months on end.

For one I don't even watch or listen to Ann Coulter. :indif:

Number two, I have no problem with eviscerating all the guilty in this. Or anyone else for that b/c we all have some lack of innocence in some way or another, but I digress: It would be wrong of me to defend her slander and it really discredits her side.

At second glance I suppose since she has constructive lines of debate with Al Sharpton, evisceration might do more harm than good...So I guess you have a point. Your point succeeds...for now. :dev9:

While I do agree with WebRider up to a point, I however believe 1). Those not involved in corrupt behavior don’t need to change. Not everyone that was involved with ACORN was corrupt.
That's what I meant with the gutting investigation. Once a thorough check is done and the error is corrected, fine.
2.) I also disagree that people cannot change. I just believe for change to happen it must be their decision and not something that can be forced upon them.
Oh you're completely right there, but Web's point still stands about its outward appearance as an entity towards the public in general.

Forgive my philosophy (AGAIN :rolleyes:): Friendship and reputation are as glass as they function, but abuse will fracture it. Though fractured, it still can function if not hit too hard, but the damage will always be there. Abuse it again and it will inevitably shatter.

So essentially ACORN (even regardless of my or any opponent's opinion) is as a whole pane of glass, but now with a fracture. We should only allow it so much more in terms of these kind of screw ups. THAT is what I'm saying.

Totenkopf
03-22-2010, 06:38 PM
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0310/Acorn_folds.html?showall

True_Avery
03-22-2010, 07:08 PM
I'd feel better about them falling if a great deal why wasn't overblown propaganda and very suspect journalism. I would of preferred them to go down legally instead. They might be gone now, but this just goes to show the power of false journalism.

I wonder who gets to be the new scapegoat.

mimartin
03-22-2010, 08:29 PM
I wonder who gets to be the new scapegoat. Someone else that helps the poor. Can not let those poor people get ahead in life.

Q
03-24-2010, 12:01 AM
*and sad, sad violin music plays in the background* :roleyess:
They might be gone now, but this just goes to show the power of false journalism.
You say that as though it were a new development.

True_Avery
03-24-2010, 12:45 AM
Hooray for thousands more lost jobs and the destruction of a community organization.

You say that as though it were a new development.
Not really, no.

Totenkopf
03-24-2010, 01:00 AM
Hardly likely, TA. Much more likely that they will "rebrand" under a different name. Really not much different than a resturant or store re-opening under a new name.

True_Avery
03-24-2010, 02:28 AM
Hardly likely, TA. Much more likely that they will "rebrand" under a different name. Really not much different than a resturant or store re-opening under a new name.
I dunno, even if they did re-open the main thing that caused them to fail was all their donation money went dry. Bankruptcy killed them faster than court. Even under a re-branding, I don't see anyone involved building anything remotely stable for quite a long time. They did re-brand some of their areas, but that obviously didn't stop them from folding.

Totenkopf
03-24-2010, 04:04 AM
I wouldn't worry much. With the current crop running our govt, the former ACORNites will be up and running under a new name and possibly some new managers. Community organizers ain't gonna disappear just b/c one chapter has been shut down. Too big an industry. Only thing that's really changes is that the name ACORN has become too toxic for contributors, little else. Sort of like the old saying....knock one down and 10 more take their place.

Darth Avlectus
03-24-2010, 11:01 AM
I dunno, even if they did re-open the main thing that caused them to fail was all their donation money went dry. Bankruptcy killed them faster than court. Even under a re-branding, I don't see anyone involved building anything remotely stable for quite a long time. They did re-brand some of their areas, but that obviously didn't stop them from folding.

Key word "some". You want to make a clean and stable getup, you have to (appear) for all intents and purposes be dissociated from a foundation that is tainted in the eyes of people. If it is a trust/reputation thing as implied. Money probably had a lot to do with that, yes. Insufficient greens and you can only hide so much.

But whatever, the people have decided.

Ten-96
05-17-2010, 11:01 PM
Just a thought on the Acorn videos...if they are fake, wouldn't it be prudent to remove the videos from one's website or face legal action?

Andrew Breitbart still has the videos and transcripts posted prominently on his Big Government (http://http://biggovernment.com/acorn/) website. There's a link highlighted in blue which directs you to all of the videos, audio and transcripts from the main page. Either he's taking a big risk or he doesn't have anything to fear from Acorn. I'm going with the latter.