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Working Class Hero
04-29-2010, 12:29 PM
Official Website (http://www.teapartypatriots.org/)

I cannot for the life of me figure out why this is so popular. The prez is trying to allow more people health care and these tea partyers seem to saying "It's too bad they can't afford it, but I don't want to help them."

Just take a look at some of their articles. They have no real explanations for their actions. They accuse the dems of ramming legislation down the people's throats, while it was Bush that passed those 'Patriot Acts'. Everything Obama has done so far has been democratic and transparent, imho.

Discuss.

Lord of Hunger
04-29-2010, 01:42 PM
Official Website (http://www.teapartypatriots.org/)

I cannot for the life of me figure out why this is so popular. The prez is trying to allow more people health care and these tea partyers seem to saying "It's too bad they can't afford it, but I don't want to help them."

Just take a look at some of their articles. They have no real explanations for their actions. They accuse the dems of ramming legislation down the people's throats, while it was Bush that passed those 'Patriot Acts'. Everything Obama has done so far has been democratic and transparent, imho.

Discuss.
1) Actually, Obama voted for "those 'Patriot Acts'". Just FYI, not implying any favoritism here.
2) The perception of the Tea Party is that Obama and the Democrats are attempting to transform America into a socialist nation. To you and I this perception may seem way off but to Joe Blough who lives down in the Alabama countryside it is dead on.

Joe Blough in 2008 saw the collapse of a financial system that he probably didn't understand and has less of an impact on him than Jane Doe is New York. Then he saw the US government dish out massive amounts of money to failed corporations. Joe Blough has been raised to believe that if you work hard you'll be fine but if you are lazy you won't, and that's how America is meant to work. Now he is seeing the US government, under a legislation controlled by the Democrats, dealing out money to those who don't even deserve it. Joe also hears the Democrats speak of entitlement systems like Health Care and further gets the impression that something is amiss. On top of all this, the reportedly most liberal US Senator in Congress gets voted into the office of President over a hardened Vietnam vet. Then the Federal Deficit climbs to record highs that make Bush's spending look puny. Joe Blough is unlikely to receive the benefits of Obama's spending. On top of all these things, Joe Blough likes to tune into Glenn Beck.

With a few vocal slip-ups by President Obama, this is how the Tea Party mentality functions. It might not be 100% factually based from where I am standing, but we are all limited by our world perception in the end.

JediAthos
04-29-2010, 02:54 PM
They are finding popularity for some of the reasons LoH mentioned, but they also are finding popularity because they are speaking out against the increase of government in the lives of private citizens and what they believe is the infringement of government on the rights of the States to manage themselves.

They also believe that the continued deficit spending by the government is wrong and that we should be reducing our national debt instead of increasing it by trillions of dollars. That is their major outcry against the current health care legislation and many of the other things the Democrats wish to do. It really isn't that they don't want people to have health care, they would see it done in a such a way that doesn't cost the people in higher taxes etc...

So, as LoH mentioned they are popular because of the current state of the U.S. economy is still having reaching effects on many people. Unemployment is still high, the housing market is still lower than it has been in almost 20 years, and the party believes the government is not doing enough to help turn things around if at all.

I'm not a member of their group, but I see points in some of the things they say.

Darth Avlectus
04-29-2010, 03:10 PM
They accuse the dems of ramming legislation down the people's throats, while it was Bush that passed those 'Patriot Acts'.
Actually they appear largely comprised of people of a libertarian sort that disagreed with the patriot act because they saw it as a largely statist move that took away freedoms rather than granted them.

Do not assume that just b/c bush did something that all rightward leaning people agree with it. I certainly do not assume that of left wing people for everything a democratic president did.

Everything Obama has done so far has been democratic and transparent, imho.

Discuss.

Maybe, maybe not. I can't completely agree with you on that point:

Not everything his administration has done was transparent, though.
Nancy Pelosi "we have to pass it first and then we'll tell you what's in the bill." Or how they shut out CSPAN (as non partisan as you get and live-as it happens) and when the asked the senate members "Why are you shutting us out? I thought this was supposed to be the administration of transparency?" From behind those doors it was Pelosi's voice that audaciously said "We *are* being transparent on a level not seen before in history!"

Also I watched Pres. Obama's first State of the union address and Sen. Harry Reid had a very bored look about his body language as though he couldn't care less and was dozing off. Before you screech "Right Wing bias and selective camera work" you should know that this was live on CSPAN as well.

So the president can try to be transparent but it looks like he largely has little to no power over his friends in the senate for being sneaky. I also have not heard him condemn it directly, just kind of gave it lip service and has never spoke to it again since.

Mind you I'm being rather generous here as I could start making all sorts of accusations that this is what he wanted in the first place.

Ping
04-29-2010, 05:10 PM
Ugh, the Tea Party annoys me, to put it politely. Sometimes, I wonder if they know the difference between Socialism and Communism. Really, I was indifferent to them at first, but after I saw a video where they mock a guy with Parkinson's, I can't really say I respect them any more. And regarding health care, the way I see it, reform was needed, as the U.S. was subpar on health care compared to other developed countries. Therefore, I was okay with the reform being passed. People are so afraid of things changing, I'm beginning to wonder how Obama got elected in the first place.

mur'phon
04-29-2010, 06:11 PM
Ugh, I was suposed to stop posting in kavars.

Actually they appear largely comprised of people of a libertarian sort that disagreed with the patriot act because they saw it as a largely statist move that took away freedoms rather than granted them.

If this was true, I'd have a bit more sympathy with them, however 57% of them aprove of George Bush (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/04/14/us/politics/20100414-tea-party-poll-graphic.html?ref=politics#tab=4). If they where libertarian, they'd want to tie Bush and Obama together and set them both on fire. Have fun with those statistics, because while the tea party movement might be a lot of things, it sure as hell isn't libertarian.

They also believe that the continued deficit spending by the government is wrong and that we should be reducing our national debt instead of increasing it by trillions of dollars.

I understand you aren't neccessarly in favor of those argument, but since you said you sympathize with some of them...

If times where good, like all but the last of Bush's time in office, I'd agree, saving in the good years to spend in the lean ones, counter cyclical spending by the govt to keep the roller coaster known as the economy on a steady upwards curve. Obama on the other hand is in a downturn, which calls for spending to turn the current vicious circle into a virtous one, as such, I have little problems with his spending, as long as things are bad/unstable (I'll join the outrageous ones if he doesen't now when to stop). Bush on the other hand ran a deficit while in a boom, which is something fiscal hawks should never forgive.

That is their major outcry against the current health care legislation and many of the other things the Democrats wish to do.


The health care bill might by itself (but probably not), but almost certainly when amended (which it will, threat of economic armageddon will see to that), reduce the cost of healthcare because it enables the govt to make some savings it couldn't before the bill.

It really isn't that they don't want people to have health care, they would see it done in a such a way that doesn't cost the people in higher taxes etc...

That would make them just like most other americans, but unfourtantely for them, taxes will increase to fund health care, but it would have happened anyway, health reform or not. Ironically enough it's going to be caused by the same demographic that are the overwhelming majority in the Tea Party, stepping out off the workforce and into the govts caring hands.

Samnmax221
04-29-2010, 08:34 PM
I went from having some sympathy, to utter annoyance pretty fast. They were kind of annoying to start with, then they shacked up with Sarah Palin and the pro-life creeps, both of which I despise.

Totenkopf
04-29-2010, 08:38 PM
They've got legitimate concerns. All that's left is to see what kind of impact they'll have come November and beyond.

True_Avery
04-29-2010, 08:59 PM
The Tea Party is too close to Fox News and the Republicans. It is really making them more into a radical republican branch than a libertarian group, especially since many of their rallies are being put together and controlled by Fox.

A real Tea Party movement would give the finger to everyone. The new age liberals, conservatives, republicans, and democrats and even the modern day libertarians. By associating with a faction that is responsible for some of the problems they are undermining their own message.

Drop Fox and the Republicans and I'll change my mind on them. At the moment they are just tools for others.

Ping
04-29-2010, 09:27 PM
The Tea Party is too close to Fox News and the Republicans. It is really making them more into a radical republican branch than a libertarian group, especially since many of their rallies are being put together and controlled by Fox.

A real Tea Party movement would give the finger to everyone. The new age liberals, conservatives, republicans, and democrats and even the modern day libertarians. By associating with a faction that is responsible for some of the problems they are undermining their own message.

Drop Fox and the Republicans and I'll change my mind on them. At the moment they are just tools for others.

^This.

Q
04-30-2010, 01:17 AM
I went from having some sympathy, to utter annoyance pretty fast. They were kind of annoying to start with, then they shacked up with Sarah Palin and the pro-life creeps, both of which I despise.
I'm pretty sure that Palin hijacked them. So that's pretty much the end of the Tea Party, since, politically speaking, she's the kiss of death.

Darth Avlectus
04-30-2010, 01:31 AM
^^^And I wonder what that says about Joe Biden's nice comments towards her being their leader and that their sentiment is legit.

Nevermind, appearances are deceving ...I guess. :dev8:

Independent is where it's really at.

Totenkopf
04-30-2010, 03:56 PM
It's fun watching the pathologies of the "left" in America come spewing out whenever this kind of subject comes up. :devsmoke:

Lord of Hunger
04-30-2010, 05:03 PM
Translation: Sarah Palin is the devil incarnate.

Dear God, I wish for once people would stop getting worked up about Palin. Honestly, what did she do that gets everyone so pissed off about her? Relative to most politicians, she's not that moronic, and its not like she will agree with whatever Obama does because it is her role to oppose him.

And Fox News isn't the ultimate propaganda machine either. Up until the past three years, it used to be a very balanced, non-partisan network that limited its political commentators to political commentary.

True_Avery
04-30-2010, 06:04 PM
Dear God, I wish for once people would stop getting worked up about Palin. Honestly, what did she do that gets everyone so pissed off about her? Relative to most politicians, she's not that moronic, and its not like she will agree with whatever Obama does because it is her role to oppose him.
I'd explain why, but I'll let a conservative republican explain instead:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/15/sarah-sells-out/

As for Palin in general, not sure why she was brought up in this thread.

And Fox News isn't the ultimate propaganda machine either. Up until the past three years, it used to be a very balanced, non-partisan network that limited its political commentators to political commentary.
There is no such thing as a balanced, partisan news network. Everything has a slant. A lean. Every news station has an agenda, and they push it. MSNBC, Fox, CNN, and so on and so forth. Hell, Fox gained its initial popularity by being very right wing during the Clinton Era.

I still think it stands that the Tea Party are shackling themselves to cars ready to crash. I'd say the same thing if they tied themselves to the equally as partisan MSNBC. By hooking up with a partisan news network, and a party that is in part responsible for a lot of what they argue against, they undermine their message. Shacking up with the same people that created the Patriot Act (Both Democrats and Republicans) is a bad way to show libertarianism and smaller government, imho.

Totenkopf
04-30-2010, 08:14 PM
Well, insofar as all networks and news outlets have a slant, at least Fox wasn't as immature in its coverage of the Tea Partiers as its competition.

True_Avery
05-01-2010, 12:54 AM
Well, insofar as all networks and news outlets have a slant, at least Fox wasn't as immature in its coverage of the Tea Partiers as its competition.
True enough, but Fox is plenty immature when covering groups they don't agree with as much as MSNBC.

Totenkopf
05-01-2010, 09:10 AM
Such as? Much of the other network coverage of the Tea party people devolved into juvenile sex jokes. What specific examples were you thinking of? Don't watch Fox enough to know what your referencing.

Lord of Hunger
05-02-2010, 06:21 AM
I'd explain why, but I'll let a conservative republican explain instead:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/15/sarah-sells-out/

As for Palin in general, not sure why she was brought up in this thread.
If she wants to contribute to Fox and make money off of it, I fail to see the problem in that.
There is no such thing as a balanced, partisan news network. Everything has a slant. A lean. Every news station has an agenda, and they push it. MSNBC, Fox, CNN, and so on and so forth. Hell, Fox gained its initial popularity by being very right wing during the Clinton Era.
Yes, Fox has a right wing slant. And they acknowledge it. However, up until recently they kept the commentary and the news reporting very separate and all was well. MSNBC always sneaks their slant in, but never acknowledges it.
I still think it stands that the Tea Party are shackling themselves to cars ready to crash. I'd say the same thing if they tied themselves to the equally as partisan MSNBC. By hooking up with a partisan news network, and a party that is in part responsible for a lot of what they argue against, they undermine their message. Shacking up with the same people that created the Patriot Act (Both Democrats and Republicans) is a bad way to show libertarianism and smaller government, imho.
There is very little in the way of unity between the GOP and the Tea Party. The mentality of the average Tea Party member is "I'm voting for this Republican because that Democrat is worse, but the moment I can I'll find something better." The Tea Party could become a third party of its own with its own candidates if it had the cohesion and leadership necessary.

Personally, my hopes are that the Tea Party will take away the most extreme elements of the Republican Party, the Democrats will collapse from their inability to accomplish anything greater than a torn-up health care bill that will probably be repealed at some point, and we'll somehow end up with something similar to the Bull-Moose Party in charge of the USA. Hell, if they could just clone Teddy Roosevelt and establish him as the King of America for all eternity I'd sleep a little better at night.

mur'phon
05-02-2010, 06:02 PM
LoF: 57% of the tea party aprove of Bush, and to the extent that they are different from "normal" Republicans, they are to the left of them on some issues. So I'm not seeing them as "rebelling" outright against the GOP in a bid to "out right" it.

Tommycat
05-04-2010, 01:30 AM
mur'phon: Nearly 80% of libertarians would have voted for Bush in 04 according to THIS POLL (http://www.zogby.com/news/readnews.cfm?ID=826). Roughly 80% of Republicans approved of GWB. Touting the 57% approved rating shows more how independent the group is. If it were largely Republican, you'd expect a far higher percentage of approval.

Think about it.. Libertarians favor smaller government and lower taxes(at least the ones I know do). While the Bush admin did push the USA PATRIOT ACT, it did cut taxes.

Also keep in mind that were it largely Republican, the favorable rates of Palin and McCain would have been significantly higher.