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ChAiNz.2da
05-14-2010, 05:50 PM
NO.. I don't believe in it.. but it made you look ;)
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I normally don't post in here (be gentle :xp: ) but this seemed a 'worthy' topic for good ole Kavars ;)
Apologies if there's already a gay marriage thread. Feel free to move this if there is (if appropriate).

SHREVEPORT, LA (KSLA) Ė People in downtown Shreveport were shocked to see a man carrying this sign which read Adults with child sex is ok.

->Source<- (http://www.ksla.com/global/story.asp?s=12477115)

"Once you allow same sex marriage, it's only inevitable that the other groups are also going to fight for their rights," said Killens.
...
"You're going to have to allow polygamy, incest, bestiality pedophiles," said Killens.

I honestly just don't see the link between pedophilia & gay marriage :confused:
Seems like grasping at straws and correlating some completely unrelated "groups", other than polygamy/marriage.. but that's another thread :xp:

Anyone care to enlighten.. or have thoughts on the subject? Be it his manner of getting his point across.. or the subject of Gay Marriage.

Totenkopf
05-14-2010, 06:02 PM
I think it's going to become a matter of these other groups taking the approach that once you've legalized gay marriage, you've opened the floodgates to the others. Besides, depending on how liberally you define "child", the minimum legal age for consent varies even w/in the US. Whether or not it made sense historically in largely agrarian socieities w/a low lifespan, I agree that it doesn't make much sense to embrace it now. I think the main link between the two is their taboo nature w/in American society.

Alkonium
05-14-2010, 06:12 PM
Well, with same-sex marriage, it's still between two consenting adults. Pedophilia and bestiality aren't, since children and animals can't give informed consent. Either homophobes are just grasping at straws when they use that argument, or they really don't get that bit.

Tysyacha
05-14-2010, 06:19 PM
I totally agree. Sex with children--and even BETWEEN children who are under the age of 15/16/17--just horrifies me. Sex is not just another "toy" or "game"--it can have incredibly serious repercussions for anyone's future, child or adult. As for gay marriage, I also fail to see how GLBT couples = bestiality, incest, polygamy, etc. I mean, WTF? I don't see it...

Blix
05-14-2010, 06:27 PM
I think it's retarded to even slump gay marriage into the same groups as pedophilia and bestiality, being gay is not a crime and last time I checked you did not need to be registered on sex offender registry for being gay. To deny gay marriage because they think that pedophiles and necrophiliacs and whatever fantasy drama the government can conjure up will have to be allowed marriage is stupid and shows how ignorant they really are.

True_Avery
05-14-2010, 06:52 PM
Well, with same-sex marriage, it's still between two consenting adults. Pedophilia and bestiality aren't, since children and animals can't give informed consent. Either homophobes are just grasping at straws when they use that argument, or they really don't get that bit.
This sums up my thoughts on the issue rather well.

Polygamy is odd for me since I've known happy couples of 3, but at the same time our marriage laws are just not structured to deal with it. Divorce, child custody, etc would just be legal nightmares. That said, its more of an American/West culture taboo and is still consenting adults. However, at the moment it isn't legally feasible without a complete overhaul of the system which probably isn't going to happen anytime soon.

mimartin
05-14-2010, 07:59 PM
We must protect the sanctity of marriage by limiting those that are allowed to marry. :rolleyes: It makes perfect sense to me. :nut:

If they really wanted to protect the sanctity of marriage they would outlaw divorce. :xp:

I honestly just don't see the link between pedophilia & gay marriage :confused: Iím equally confused as to how parent notification will lead to the Supreme Court overturning Roe vs. Wade or how outlawing armor piercing rounds will lead to the Government taking my hunting rifle, but such are the arguments of those that have no real bases in facts.

Working Class Hero
05-14-2010, 08:07 PM
We must protect the sanctity of marriage by limiting those that are allowed to marry. :rolleyes: It makes perfect sense to me.:nut:
Makes perfect sense to me. (Seriously)

Salzella
05-14-2010, 08:19 PM
It's a fantastic example of the slippery slope fallacy, i'll give him that much.

vanir
05-14-2010, 08:43 PM
Paranoid schizophrenics have the right to free disturbing speech.

We would charge them causing a public nuisance (summary, just a fine but arrest if they don't leave or bin the signage), or affray (indictable, if an altercation actually ensues and there is injury/damage, means they're going to the station).

Also our "anti-terrorism" legislation as a result of the US Patriot Act and Special Rendition policies (thanks for that), means they can be charged with Sedition if actually challenging a governing policy or legislation in this manner (indictable, 7yrs prison).

If he had a journalist ticket he'd be exempt.

Tysyacha
05-14-2010, 09:03 PM
Please explain the "sedition" part again. What exactly do you have to do to be charged with it, according to our anti-terrorism laws?

Samnmax221
05-14-2010, 09:19 PM
Ah, the American South.

mimartin
05-14-2010, 11:09 PM
Makes perfect sense to me. (Seriously)Well then I'm against two red heads getting married. Can we take away that segment of the populations rights too?

swphreak
05-15-2010, 12:39 AM
Wait, NAMBLA is real? I thought that was something they made up on South Park.


While the slippery slope argument is bullcrap, the dude has every right to walk around with his sign.


Better not allow handguns, next thing you know, they'll allow RPG and Miniguns.

Sabretooth
05-15-2010, 12:59 AM
I honestly just don't see the link between pedophilia & gay marriage :confused:
Seems like grasping at straws and correlating some completely unrelated "groups", other than polygamy/marriage.. but that's another thread :xp:

Anyone care to enlighten.. or have thoughts on the subject? Be it his manner of getting his point across.. or the subject of Gay Marriage.

I heard this argument a lot in conservative India when homosexuality was legalised last year or so. It's easy:

Homosexuality is a perversion, just like paedophilia, bestiality, sodomy and all other sexual practices where the penis does not go into the adult vagina. It is not natural and will happen if you are in bad company or abused as a child.

And now if they're being all uppity and allowing those perverted freaks to love people their own gender instead of rehabilitating them like civilised people; well, you'd might as well legalise the paedophiles and bestiality freaks too, huh?

jonathan7
05-15-2010, 05:09 AM
Personally I think that what consenting adults do between themselves is entirely their own affair.

Essentially the comparison of homosexuality to paedophilia is many of my Christian brothers and sisters wanted to greatly simplify matters of great complexity. I also think its almost an attempt at emotional blackmail on others, it also disturbs me how there is a want to classify people by their sexuality, when in actual fact our sexuality in reality on makes up a small part of who we are. I would also further say that I think that one of my best friends (who happens to be gay and in a stable relationship, I think he and his partner would make better parents than a lot of individuals who are parents).

Essentially it comes down I think to forcing others to adhere to your morality; the rather curious thing here is that Jesus (the guy Christians are meant to follow) never forced people to obey him. Indeed you will find no example in the Bible of either Jews or Christians forcing others to adhere to their morality.

Homosexuality is a perversion, just like paedophilia, bestiality, sodomy and all other sexual practices where the penis does not go into the adult vagina. It is not natural and will happen if you are in bad company or abused as a child.

And now if they're being all uppity and allowing those perverted freaks to love people their own gender instead of rehabilitating them like civilised people; well, you'd might as well legalise the paedophiles and bestiality freaks too, huh?

They not read the Karma Sutra I take it?

j7's 2 cents....

Sabretooth
05-15-2010, 06:01 AM
They not read the Karma Sutra I take it?

It's Kama Sutra... Kama and Karma have about as much in common as Lust and Dust. >_>

And most conservative Indians will look the other way if you mention the Kama Sutra.

*looks away*

Working Class Hero
05-15-2010, 10:59 PM
Well then I'm against two red heads getting married. Can we take away that segment of the populations rights too?
I hate this type of argument. If you keep using it, pretty much you can justify anything. (Yes, I realize you were being sarcastic. But...hair color and sexual orientation are completely different levels of issues and making flippant comments doesn't help the discussion, imo.)

I feel everyone has their own line to draw on this issue. If I wasn't a Christian, I'd be perfectly fine with it. But, because the Bible says it's a sin, I don't condone it.

urluckyday
05-15-2010, 11:36 PM
Wait, NAMBLA is real? I thought that was something they made up on South Park.


While the slippery slope argument is bullcrap, the dude has every right to walk around with his sign.


Better not allow handguns, next thing you know, they'll allow RPG and Miniguns.

Yes.
(official logo)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/96/NAMBLA_logo.svg/200px-NAMBLA_logo.svg.png


It is now defunct according to wikipedia.

From Wikipedia:
More recently, media reports have suggested that for practical purposes the group no longer exists and that it consists only of a web site maintained by a few enthusiasts. NAMBLA maintains a web site that shows addresses in New York and San Francisco and a phone contact in New York, and offers publications for sale, including the NAMBLA Bulletin.

Classic. "Enthusiasts" is probably not the best word usage...but definitely funny!

Perverts.

VarsityPuppet
05-16-2010, 12:26 AM
Oh psh, the sanctity of all sorts of **** is violated all of the time. I am against gay marriage, but don't let me stop you if you are GLBT.


In a strange way though, this guy is sort of right. It's a long shot, but once gay marriage is legalized, who knows what could be next? The times they are a'changin, so you never know: children and adults could someday fornicate (legally).

I'm not saying I agree with this completely, but I understand where he's coming from... even if his rationale is hackneyed.

Besides, he does have to freedom of speech, along with the freedom to make a complete ass out of himself. Everyone else, meanwhile, has the rights to listen, criticize, or ignore his stupid blabbering.

Gurges-Ahter
05-17-2010, 11:05 AM
I'm not saying I agree with the guy, but I think it is fairly easy to "see the connection" he's attempting to make, contrary to what many have said on this thread. If one sees homosexuality as a perversion, then it is comparable to beastiality and pedophilia.

However, even if one doesn't see it as a perversion, it would still be comparable to polygamy, IMO. Adults who are capable of making decisions about marriage are not being taken advantage of if they so choose to participate in polygamy (unlike pedophilia and beastiality). Why aren't polygamists screaming for equal rights like homosexuals are? Perhaps they are, but it's still too taboo in US society for people to really listen.

mimartin
05-17-2010, 12:10 PM
I feel everyone has their own line to draw on this issue. If I wasn't a Christian, I'd be perfectly fine with it. But, because the Bible says it's a sin, I don't condone it. But if they are not Christians why do they have to go along with a Christian view? I thought this nation was founded on the notion of not having others religious views forced down our throats. Even if they are Christians maybe they interrupted the Bible differently and don’t see it in the same matter as others. Should they be allowed the same rights as every other American?

So while you may Attempt to belittle my sarcastic argument you have done nothing to dismiss that argument. Some people do not like homosexuals (like I joked I do not like redheads) because they see it as unnatural or perverse. So they use this lack of understand and discrimination to limit the rights of another human being. I have no problem with people finding it distasteful or even perverse; my only problem with the issue is people being discriminated against because of others dislikes. To each his or her own is my feeling on the matter.

Pho3nix
05-17-2010, 01:42 PM
In a strange way though, this guy is sort of right. It's a long shot, but once gay marriage is legalized, who knows what could be next? The times they are a'changin, so you never know: children and adults could someday fornicate (legally).
Stupidest thing I've ever heard. Everything is about control it seems.

Tommycat
05-17-2010, 02:56 PM
As to the link between same sex marriage and polygamy and polyamory, I can see that. It's all consenting adults.

I can understand WHERE they get the idea that same sex marriage equals sex with kids. I disagree with it, but in THEIR eyes, it's all a perversion. Not to mention, organizations such as NAMBLA tend to have a stronger following in locations that have a higher acceptance of homosexuality. HOWEVER, pedophilia is not limited to NAMBLA. There are just as many heterosexual persons who commit pedophilia.

My personal feelings on Marriage are that it SHOULD be only between a man and a woman, IF the church deems it so. All marriages should only be the religious concept. We should have ONLY civil unions accepted by the government. Civil unions should guarantee the same rights as Marriage currently grants.

mimartin
05-17-2010, 03:09 PM
All marriages should only be the religious concept. We should have ONLY civil unions accepted by the government. Civil unions should guarantee the same rights as Marriage currently grants.

I could agree with that in so far as everyone had to go through the civil unions and that the government did not tell a religious institution that it could not perform homosexual marriages. What I mean is if “Our Holy Father gets to pass final judgment and not man” church wants to have wedding ceremonies for Homosexuals then the government (and other churches) should keep their big noses out of that religious institutions business.

FWIW: I also agree that marriage should be only between a man and a woman. My religious beliefs tell me this, but my religious beliefs have NOTHING to do with to do with others. They form the standard I strive to reach, not the standard to which to hold others.

Tommycat
05-17-2010, 03:48 PM
I could agree with that in so far as everyone had to go through the civil unions and that the government did not tell a religious institution that it could not perform homosexual marriages. What I mean is if “Our Holy Father gets to pass final judgment and not man” church wants to have wedding ceremonies for Homosexuals then the government (and other churches) should keep their big noses out of that religious institutions business.

FWIW: I also agree that marriage should be only between a man and a woman. My religious beliefs tell me this, but my religious beliefs have NOTHING to do with to do with others. They form the standard I strive to reach, not the standard to which to hold others.
That's why I added that section about IF the church deems it so. If the Church of Love decides that two men or two women can be married, So be it. Marriage itself is limited to a religious construct independent of government(or at least that's how it SHOULD be). Whereas the civil union is the government recognized formation of cooperative linking for the purposes of rights.

I tend to find same sex "icky" BUT "icky" is not a valid reason to treat someone differently under the law. Just because a religious institution finds something "wrong" should not determine how a person should be treated under the law. In OUR country religion is not supposed to determine treatment. Too bad more of our leaders don't see that. It's one of my gripes with the party I belong to.

VarsityPuppet
05-17-2010, 05:15 PM
Stupidest thing I've ever heard. Everything is about control it seems.

Well, as others have stated, homosexuality is often seen as a perversion of sexuality, all along with pornography, rape, pedophilia, orgies, voyeurism, nudism, bestiality. This is how the connection is made, at least for this man, in this case. Personally, I don't think this man cares whether people think he's right or wrong, just that they understand his message.

Qui-Gon Glenn
05-18-2010, 12:58 PM
Wow. Is critical thinking something that is taught, at all, anymore? How about basic logic, and cognizance of classic fallacies?

It's a fantastic example of the slippery slope fallacy, i'll give him that much.Thank you. For those of you not familiar with this arguments form, please see this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope). If you feel that arguments of this form are legitimate, you really have no business in Kavar's Corner.Makes perfect sense to me. (Seriously)Case in point. You make a value-based claim and offer nothing to support your argument. We should agree with you because you are with the right crowd? Oh wait, that is this type (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum) of fallacy....Paranoid schizophrenics have the right to free disturbing speech.

We would charge them causing a public nuisance (summary, just a fine but arrest if they don't leave or bin the signage), or affray (indictable, if an altercation actually ensues and there is injury/damage, means they're going to the station).Yes. Well then I'm against two red heads getting married. Can we take away that segment of the populations rights too?I hate this type of argument. If you keep using it, pretty much you can justify anything.Oh, so his argument by analogy, which CAN be fallacious, is unacceptable to you, while ad populum and slippery slope and probably ad infinitum are all perfectly acceptable. Consistency.I feel everyone has their own line to draw on this issue. If I wasn't a Christian, I'd be perfectly fine with it. But, because the Bible says it's a sin, I don't condone it.And because you are a Christian, and this is a Christian country, we should make rules for all Americans that conform to Christian views. How many problems are there with this statement. Your opinion is yours and as valid (or invalid) as the next guys, but gives you no right whatsoever to cast generalizations from your limited POV.In a strange way though, this guy is sort of right. It's a long shot, but once gay marriage is legalized, who knows what could be next? The times they are a'changin, so you never know: children and adults could someday fornicate (legally).
Stupidest thing I've ever heard.'Nuff said. Apparently, Varsity, you missed the whole slippery slope thing? You restated it in as about a textbook example as I have ever seen.

Please people, feel free to have opinions about what others should or should not do. But do not should on people, it is not nice, not to mention messy and potential a real stinker.

I am not gay, I am not Christian, I am as American as apple pie, and I say Christian morality is expressly prohibited from informing the law of this country (so does the constitution), and that the conclusion that having sex with children will be deemed ok as a result of allowing gay consenting adults to marry is the most preposterously retarded and small minded concept I can imagine. Offensive, and just plain ignorant/uneducated.

:ugh:

machievelli
05-18-2010, 02:41 PM
The problem is definition of what is a child. I have met many a woman between my age and majority who have less capable brains than my own 20 year old Niece. I have also met children who know and understand a lot more of the world than their own parents. Setting a line, I.E. 18 as legal for that, or 21 for drinking is a palliative, it only satisfies the average joe.

As for leading to other 'perversions', as the old saying goes, use a chicken feather, it's kinky. use the whole chicken, it's pervereted.

And among the ones that should have a right to complain, you forgot the victims of necrophiles. After all if a corpse sat up complaining, it would be nationwide news.

Ztalker
05-18-2010, 04:41 PM
The problem is definition of what is a child. I have met many a woman between my age and majority who have less capable brains than my own 20 year old Niece. I have also met children who know and understand a lot more of the world than their own parents. Setting a line, I.E. 18 as legal for that, or 21 for drinking is a palliative, it only satisfies the average joe.

My argument exactly. The limit of 'child' is put at 18 because it is believed people at 18 can make rational decisions. But, like you say, that is not always the case.
But satisfying the average Joe is already better then satisfying the perverts by not holding that age line.

machievelli
05-18-2010, 07:25 PM
My argument exactly. The limit of 'child' is put at 18 because it is believed people at 18 can make rational decisions. But, like you say, that is not always the case.
But satisfying the average Joe is already better then satisfying the perverts by not holding that age line.

My favorite comment about parenting is from Robert Lynn Asprin. 'No matter how incompetent you are in society, it's automatically assumed you will be a good parent'.

And because you are a Christian, and this is a Christian country, we should make rules for all Americans that conform to Christian views. How many problems are there with this statement. Your opinion is yours and as valid (or invalid) as the next guys, but gives you no right whatsoever to cast generalizations from your limited POV.

'The United States is not a Christian Jewish or Moslem country. It is a country of laws' A Whatever prize to whomever can name the Famous American who made that statement.

Q
05-18-2010, 07:55 PM
Well, with same-sex marriage, it's still between two consenting adults.
It's a fantastic example of the slippery slope fallacy, i'll give him that much.
I tend to find same sex "icky" BUT "icky" is not a valid reason to treat someone differently under the law.
Well, these quotes pretty much cover how I feel about the issue, so I guess I have nothing to add, except...
Ah, the American South.
You shouldn't generalize. This country's a melting pot of all types of cretinism.

VarsityPuppet
05-18-2010, 09:52 PM
'Nuff said. Apparently, Varsity, you missed the whole slippery slope thing? You restated it in as about a textbook example as I have ever seen.

I saw the slippery slope fallacy earlier but did not stop to take a look at it, figuring since I wasn't really arguing anything, that it wasn't necessary to look up. Thanks for calling me out on it though, and I'll have to watch that in the future.

I'm not arguing that we should ban gay marriage because of such reasons, just that I understand where he's coming from, but I guess either way, I fell into that fallacy.

Lesson learned.

EDIT:

Please people, feel free to have opinions about what others should or should not do. But do not should on people, it is not nice, not to mention messy and potential a real stinker.

I don't recall pushing anything I believed on anyone?

Working Class Hero
05-21-2010, 10:12 AM
Oh, so his argument by analogy, which CAN be fallacious, is unacceptable to you, while ad populum and slippery slope and probably ad infinitum are all perfectly acceptable. Consistency.
Thank you for calling me out on this. I made a statement and didn't back it up with a real argument. Lesson learned!

And because you are a Christian, and this is a Christian country, we should make rules for all Americans that conform to Christian views. How many problems are there with this statement.
When did I ever say I wanted to push my views on other people? My exact statement was: I feel everyone has their own line to draw on this issue. If I wasn't a Christian, I'd be perfectly fine with it. But, because the Bible says it's a sin, I don't condone it.
All I did was state my opinion because of my religion. To clarify: I feel that 'marriage' should be applied only to a heterosexual couple, I can't agree that a gay couple should be able to receive that term.

My personal feelings on Marriage are that it SHOULD be only between a man and a woman, IF the church deems it so. All marriages should only be the religious concept. We should have ONLY civil unions accepted by the government. Civil unions should guarantee the same rights as Marriage currently grants.
^This is basically my position. I do understand that America was not founded as a Christian nation and Christianity has no 'legal' authority.

As an American, it does make me feel somewhat guilty that a segment of the population feels they are being discriminated against.
But, as a Christian, it would make me feel guilty that as a country we are tolerating something explicitly spoken against in the Bible.

Your opinion is yours and as valid (or invalid) as the next guys, but gives you no right whatsoever to cast generalizations from your limited POV.
I wasn't intending to cast generalizations. I understand that it's unrealistic for me to expect anyone to follow my religion, or for anyone to expect me to follow their religion. This just my personal opinion on this subject. Others are completely free to disregard it.

If I came off as judgmental, or preachy, Iím deeply sorry.

True_Avery
05-21-2010, 02:05 PM
Just to put my small bit of input into this thread before avoiding it again:

Marriage, in the United States, is not strictly religious and cannot be due to Separation of Church and State. It -does- have religious connotation. It -does- have Religious roots. You -can- get married in a church. I will not argue any of these points. What I will add, however, is that you can also be married by a Ship's Captain, or a specific Federal Official. Meaning, that if I wanted to marry a girlfriend at some point I, personally, would go to the court house and get legally married without a ceremony. The important fact here is that marriage is, at its base in this country, a federal slip of paper two people sign. The church, priest, ceremony, party, etc are all traditional side effects of this slip of paper. Nothing more, nothing less. This can be backed up by the fact that atheists can and are married in this country.

The compromise here is that "marriage" should no longer be the legal term if it carries that much religious overtone.

Marriage itself is limited to a religious construct independent of government(or at least that's how it SHOULD be). Whereas the civil union is the government recognized formation of cooperative linking for the purposes of rights.
This.

Religious folk can have the word "marriage" and "married" if they like, and they can choke on it. At this point I hate both of the terms anyway, as well as all tradition and meaning behind them and the less I can associate with them the better. All I'm interested in is the legal rights the words give me since I don't need a ****ing word to know I love someone.

machievelli
05-21-2010, 02:41 PM
Marriage is linked to therelgions because the early Christian church (Pre Catholic) made marriages not only religious but legal ceremonies. That meant they could control dynasties by limiting their right to the franchise. The English break away came not because Henry wanted a divorce, but because the church, which was the only body allowed to grant one, refused because it would have removed the daughter of a Spanish nobleman they did control form his bed.

That is why in most cases, a divorce ends up in court with every legalistic leech that can battening off them.

As my ex said when asked about same sex marriage, 'Why not, they have as much right to be miserable as any hetero couple'.

And regarding 'civil union' instead of marriage, for about 50 years her in the US the only way an interracial couple could get married was this way, because the various churches refused to accept that such unions were allowed 'under god'.