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View Full Version : News: Never eat yellow snow...Hoth revealed


Ztalker
05-21-2010, 06:17 AM
Videogamer.com was invited for a hand-on preview of the Hoth (http://www.videogamer.com/pc/star_wars_the_old_republic/preview-2368.html) quest hub for Star Wars: The Old Republic

Linkie:
http://www.videogamer.com/pc/star_wars_the_old_republic/preview-2368.html

I don't know if this planet should be here. Of course Hoth rocks, but mostly because of the TESB movie scenes. What Old Republic Jedi have to do there? No idea.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Just saw the article also mentions a new species. Rattataki!

Darth Ken0bi
05-21-2010, 08:27 AM
Seriously, is BioWare trying to clone the original trilogy completely now?

JediAthos
05-21-2010, 09:21 AM
The author of the article doesn't seem very impressed at this point with what Bioware has put forth. Having not seen what he has seen I can't really make an informed judgment but Bioware does seem to be scant on the details although we may see much more at the coming E3.

As far as Hoth is concerned I don't have a huge problem with it. It would be logical to assume that Hoth was known prior to the Rebel Alliance using it as a base just like Anchorhead on Tatooine had been settled abandoned and resettled several times. (KOTOR 1). Not only that but Hoth is one of those iconic SW locations that if I were Bioware I'd say "we've got to stick this in somewhere."

Gurges-Ahter
05-21-2010, 10:03 AM
I read the article - it's about Nal Hutta, not Hoth. The pictures are of Hoth though... not sure what's going on there.

Gurges-Ahter
05-21-2010, 11:57 AM
SWTOR.com has now released Hoth to everyone - cool screenshots and stuff included.

Link (http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/planets/hoth)

As soon as I have some time here at work I'll translate the Aurebesh and post it here.

adamqd
05-21-2010, 12:54 PM
I actually fell asleep when I read the update, hit my face on the floor and chipped a tooth... and it didn't hurt as much as this update lol, what an unimaginative excuse for a planet.

Serves a great purpose as an unassuming barren waste land to hide a rebel base, they then leave and get onto the main story, the End. What is the point of this Planet other than to grab the attention of anyone who's ever seen ESB

Alexrd
05-21-2010, 01:02 PM
What is the point of this Planet other than to grab the attention of anyone who's ever seen ESB

It helps to make more subscriptions.

adamqd
05-21-2010, 01:11 PM
It helps to make more subscriptions.

you are my worst enemy, but thats what I meant bud :)

Alexrd
05-21-2010, 01:51 PM
you are my worst enemy, but thats what I meant bud :)

You're not my enemy, at least from my part.

Gurges-Ahter
05-21-2010, 02:26 PM
What is the point of this Planet other than to grab the attention of anyone who's ever seen ESB

Does there need to be more purpose? I mean, not everything BioWare releases can be Earth-shattering, right?

adamqd
05-21-2010, 02:34 PM
I don't get your point dude, I'm just saying lol, It's bad enough that I dislike some of what Bioware are doing, never mind being repeatedly punched in the side of the head by people defending they're honor lol. I don't think its a good Idea, thats my Opinion, I'm sorry if my first thought isn't "Oh well they are trying :):)" this is a forum to Discuss what we think of the upcoming MMO from Bioware/Lucasarts... That was my Opinion.

Does there need to be another reason? yes lol, being interesting to play for one, original maybe, something.

Gurges-Ahter
05-21-2010, 02:36 PM
That's fine - not trying to defend anyone's honor. I guess I just don't expect every detail of TOR to be totally groundbreaking. There is going to be some stuff that's just there to be there, and Hoth seems like it falls in that category. It appeals to OT fans. I'm ok with that.

adamqd
05-21-2010, 02:43 PM
And I fully accept that and actually respect your Opinion. I just want the best for an Old Republic era game, its the last Credible era in my opinion now, I don't want it to go down the pan and be just another cash cow generic franchise. and with regards to OT fans, I'm 110% an original OT fan, but I would prefer new ideas and locales.

Gurges-Ahter
05-21-2010, 03:15 PM
I agree with you - I would also prefer new ideas and locales. However, if a certain locale or era is going to get a nod, I think the OT is the best choice.

Perhaps I'm just being too optimistic, but from what I've seen thus far, there's a lot to be excited about in TOR that's new and unique to the era. Nods here and there don't detract from that for me.

The-Seraphim
05-21-2010, 03:27 PM
I understand the need to grab the attention of those who don't know much about the OR Era but they could have chosen a lot better spots that wouldn't seem so random.

If they wanted a icy planet they could of chose idk Rhen Var which would make more sense for a battle ground for its Jedi ruins scattered around and buried beneath the ice.

Gurges-Ahter
05-21-2010, 03:40 PM
Perhaps, but we already have Jedi ruins on Tython, Coruscant, and Dantooine. Jedi ruins are cool with me, but I don't necessarily need more.

My only problem with Hoth is that I thought it got it's name from Jedi Master Hoth from the Bane era, but this would certainly indicate it was called Hoth long before Jedi Hoth existed. Maybe he was named after the planet, not vice versa.

IMO the only reason to include Hoth would be to give a nod to ESB, and I don't think Rhen Var would have accomplished that. Some people have an issue with that being the purpose of the planet, which I understand - just disagree with.

Miltiades
05-21-2010, 04:17 PM
I don't mind seeing planets that played a big part in the movies, as long as they make sense. Planets like Coruscant and Alderaan have remained important for millennia for various reasons, even Tatooine I can understand. But Hoth seems like the planet in the unknown regions of the galaxy that no one knew or cared about until the Rebels found it and planted a base there.

When I look at how it's involved in this from the description, it doesn't make much sense. A planet unworthy of protecting, it just happens to be the place where Republic and Sith fleets accidentally meet. And it's importance during TOR is, in my opinion, dubious. This scrapyard can't be as important as most planets closer to the core and which has people on them.

RogueJedi86
05-22-2010, 01:00 AM
I'm sure today being the 30th Anniversary of ESB had nothing to do with Hoth being in TOR... :P

adamqd
05-22-2010, 01:00 PM
I'm sure today being the 30th Anniversary of ESB had nothing to do with Hoth being in TOR... :P

Totally missed that lol

Rinku
05-22-2010, 01:10 PM
I'm sure today being the 30th Anniversary of ESB had nothing to do with Hoth being in TOR... :P

You beat me to it :P

Nedak
05-22-2010, 03:24 PM
Another disappointing update.

Not only does it shatter the lore and the enigma that is Hoth, but it does so by putting filler in the planet (this is based off the screenshots) and borrowing unoriginal ideas from already created MMOs (the similarity between the Hoth screenshots and parts of WoW).

RogueJedi86
05-22-2010, 03:26 PM
What enigma did Hoth ever have? It was never mysterious, it never had any mysteries. It was an icy hellhole with wampas and tauntauns and lots of snow. There was no enigma to shatter. At least now that it's had a huge battle in orbit in the past, that gives a bit of mystery to the world.

And really? You think WoW created snowy zones in MMOs? FFXI has snowy zones that look similar too, and I'm sure EverQuest did too. I know it's hard to take, but WoW was never the first to do ANYTHING. All WoW did was put together the best pre-existing features of MMOs that were on the scene before WoW came out.

*edit* I'll admit that I noticed the icy canyons reminded me of WoW's, but WoW was hardly the first to create such things, so I don't mind at all. There's only a set amount of climates out there that can be done, and eventually you're going to have some similar climates in multiple games. PLUS Hoth came out 30 years ago in ESB, WoW came out 5 years ago. I'd say TOR's Hoth has 25 years of originality ahead of WoW so we should say WoW's zones ripped off ESB's Hoth, not the other way around.

Tommycat
05-22-2010, 04:49 PM
Ugh.. I don't like Hoth. Never seemed much like a good idea. The only things that were good about Hoth were seen in ESB. It's good for a big massive battle with AT-AT's and snow speders, but without the whole empire thing, it just rings hollow. It was supposed to be an insignificant ice ball that had nothing of note. That's why smugglers and the republic used it. It had nothing. So it would be ignored.

RogueJedi86
05-22-2010, 04:54 PM
Technically there still is an Empire, and ruled by Sith no less. :)

Now Hoth is still an insignificant snowball, except now its only other claim to fame is being the site of a space battle thousands of years ago. Would you say a place has something of note if it had a battle in 1500 BC? How many places on Earth do we remember for having battles 3500 years ago? Having a space battle this far back doesn't mean Hoth is suddenly a busy place. It's less busy than Tatooine, which is supposed to be a nothing world but had major events occur there seemingly every few years.

Nedak
05-22-2010, 10:35 PM
What enigma did Hoth ever have? It was never mysterious, it never had any mysteries. It was an icy hellhole with wampas and tauntauns and lots of snow. There was no enigma to shatter. At least now that it's had a huge battle in orbit in the past, that gives a bit of mystery to the world.
I disagree. To me, as a child, I always thought of Hoth to be this remote planet where its mystique was in the fact that you don't know what lives on it and where they live. Obviously the EU has ruined that slightly, but still Hoth has remained to be a slightly mysterious planet (not as much as Dagobah however).

And really? You think WoW created snowy zones in MMOs? FFXI has snowy zones that look similar too, and I'm sure EverQuest did too. I know it's hard to take, but WoW was never the first to do ANYTHING. All WoW did was put together the best pre-existing features of MMOs that were on the scene before WoW came out.

*edit* I'll admit that I noticed the icy canyons reminded me of WoW's, but WoW was hardly the first to create such things, so I don't mind at all. There's only a set amount of climates out there that can be done, and eventually you're going to have some similar climates in multiple games. PLUS Hoth came out 30 years ago in ESB, WoW came out 5 years ago. I'd say TOR's Hoth has 25 years of originality ahead of WoW so we should say WoW's zones ripped off ESB's Hoth, not the other way around.
Woa woa, I'm not saying that the that it's a snow zone and because of that it's a rip off of WoW. It has nothing to do with the zone or general idea, it has to do with the fact that the graphics (at least mostly in the screenshots I've seen so far) are very WoW-like.

It's nothing to do with the climate, it's just the fact that the graphics (again, on Hoth) and some of the areas (IE: Ice Caves) remind me very much so of WoW and/or Warhammer.

And don't think I'm a guy that thinks WoW started everything because I know that. I hate WoW, and I've been playing MMOs since before WoW started.

RogueJedi86
05-22-2010, 11:23 PM
I was a bit harsh in my quick reaction, sorry. You did say Hoth was an unoriginal idea though, and ideas have nothing to do with the graphics.

I wouldn't say the EU has ruined Hoth. My "The Wildlife of Star Wars: A Field Guide" still only lists 2 species on Hoth: Wampa and Tauntaun(tauntaun has 3 sub-species, but nothing major). Like I basically said to Tommycat, 3500 years is a long time. It could add to the planet's mystery by its only notable event in the past being a big space battle many millenia ago. I was all anti-Hoth when I first heard about it, but I've warmed up to it now. :)

urluckyday
05-23-2010, 12:26 AM
Hmm...I was always under the impression that Hoth was a harsh planet that wasn't home to anything other than animals until the Rebels arrived...

RogueJedi86
05-23-2010, 02:03 AM
Well I don't think the Empire and Republic are going to stay and make Hoth their home. They're only there long enough to recover their wrecked ships, then they'll leave. It actually fits nicely with Hoth looking untouched in ESB. We have 3500 years for people to salvage their ships and the snow to cover up what little is left behind, and leave it looking like no one was there.

Though minor EU note, the Rebel Base on Hoth was built inside the tunnels that a Mon Calamari smuggler named Salmakk had already made his own. Salmakk created his own little base to hide away in, and the Rebels chased out the last stragglers of Salmakk's group when they moved in. They even built the Ion Cannon on a flattened spot Salmakk had left. Apparently more than just the Rebels have noted its remoteness. :)

Nedak
05-23-2010, 02:45 PM
I was a bit harsh in my quick reaction, sorry. You did say Hoth was an unoriginal idea though, and ideas have nothing to do with the graphics.
I was saying that the ideas that are creating SWTORs Hoth are unoriginal. I never said Hoth itself was original... however the way they are conveying Hoth (graphically) is in my eyes, unoriginal.

I wouldn't say the EU has ruined Hoth. My "The Wildlife of Star Wars: A Field Guide" still only lists 2 species on Hoth: Wampa and Tauntaun(tauntaun has 3 sub-species, but nothing major). Like I basically said to Tommycat, 3500 years is a long time. It could add to the planet's mystery by its only notable event in the past being a big space battle many millenia ago. I was all anti-Hoth when I first heard about it, but I've warmed up to it now. :)
Again, I never said the EU ruined Hoth, I was saying that it ruined the mystique.I believed there was more on the planet and the EU ruined that. :P

Web Rider
05-23-2010, 02:58 PM
Eh, Hoth, *shrug*, honestly, most of these worlds are a bit boring, but what makes a world interesting isn't so much what you're looking at but what you'll be doing there.

RogueJedi86
05-23-2010, 03:53 PM
How could they have shown Hoth in an original way? :P There's only so many ways to show a barren snowscape. Even in the movies it was just snowdrifts. The Hoth of TOR is showing icy canyons and stuff we didn't see in ESB. :P

I'll easily admit that at the least they timed the announcement of Hoth with the 30th anniversary of ESB. If this had been 2013, we'd be seeing an announcement of Endor instead. TOR is easily the biggest hypetrain LucasArts has right now(alongside TFU2), so of course they had Hoth announced now.

I do look forward to fighting the Empire and pirates for the ships ruins. I really hope we can make/upgrade our own ships with the salvaged parts though. :)

Rinku
05-23-2010, 06:49 PM
I do look forward to fighting the Empire and pirates for the ships ruins. I really hope we can make/upgrade our own ships with the salvaged parts though. :)
I hope we can upgrade becuase being a Smuggler/Bounty Hunter I will need them ;).

Nedak
05-23-2010, 08:45 PM
How could they have shown Hoth in an original way? :P There's only so many ways to show a barren snowscape. Even in the movies it was just snowdrifts. The Hoth of TOR is showing icy canyons and stuff we didn't see in ESB. :P
That's why they probably shouldn't have chosen it as a planet.

Also, again I was more so talking about the graphics.

RogueJedi86
05-23-2010, 10:39 PM
Well people expect a Snow World, just like they expect a Desert World, a Forest World, a Water World, a City World, etc. I thought Belsavis was a nice twist on it, but apparently we'll be playing in the green areas there. You know you wanna ride a tauntaun. :)

JediAthos
05-23-2010, 10:49 PM
In all honesty there's only so many different types of landscapes you can have.

As I said before Hoth is an iconic SW location right along with Coruscant, Alderaan, and Tatooine. That, more than anything else, I'm sure is the reason it was included. Along the same line Taris is an iconic KOTOR/Old Republic location which I'm sure is why it was included.

I don't have a problem with it as I previously stated. Iconic locations are a part of any MMO that stems from a long running franchise. WoW has an unfounded number of them, SWG has them etc...etc...

DAWUSS
05-23-2010, 11:23 PM
I'm with everyone else. WTF? How does this even tie in to the current backstory for Hoth? IIRC IU the planet was named after the character, who isn't even born until much later. Also, like others have said, there's nothing there, which is key to it's role in ESB.


Even Dagobah would have made more sense if they wanted to use a backwater planet from ESB

RogueJedi86
05-24-2010, 01:06 AM
And there will be nothing there again after the Empire and Republic and privateers clean up their ship wreckage, which should take a decade tops. That still leaves 3490 years for nothing to keep being there until ESB happens. A lot can happen in 3500 years. Can you think of anything that's still standing on earth in Antarctica from 3500 years ago? Doubt it.

Darth Avlectus
05-24-2010, 02:39 AM
Hoth in and of itself isn't necessarily too bad but it looks like the creativity team has little in the way of original new ideas. It's a grab towards familiarity of ESB with longtime fans... and that ultimately may end up cheapening it and killing originality if they can't make headway on it. Hoth is what it always was and will always be: a miserable cold place in the snow that "doesn't have enough life to fill an ice cube".

Another thing: *Are* they going to actually call it Hoth? I thought this planet was going to be named after the Jedi Lord Hoth--which has yet to happen for another 2700 years by the continuity of the storyline.
Way to go on this one. :dozey: (If they hurry and give it a predecessor name quickly, nobody will notice this whatsit needs attention and a retcon.)

I hope it includes some other life forms that aren't extinct yet by this time period. Also, it better have some caves and a good history of the planet. Maybe some other awesome stuff hidden below the surface.


You're not my enemy, at least from my part.

I think he was joking. :P

I read the article - it's about Nal Hutta, not Hoth. The pictures are of Hoth though... not sure what's going on there.

Ugh...I couldn't even tell what that was supposed to be more about--hoth or the Hutt's planet? Seems like the review got a little mixed up in both. I'm confused now. :(

I don't mind seeing planets that played a big part in the movies, as long as they make sense. Planets like Coruscant and Alderaan have remained important for millennia for various reasons, even Tatooine I can understand. But Hoth seems like the planet in the unknown regions of the galaxy that no one knew or cared about until the Rebels found it and planted a base there.

When I look at how it's involved in this from the description, it doesn't make much sense. A planet unworthy of protecting, it just happens to be the place where Republic and Sith fleets accidentally meet. And it's importance during TOR is, in my opinion, dubious. This scrapyard can't be as important as most planets closer to the core and which has people on them.

I tend to agree with you.

Not that I'd ever want to see gungans again, but I'd think Naboo could potentially have more of a background story, maybe a history of some sort? It's a peaceful, beautiful resort planet. However that doesn't mean it couldn't have a past where once there had bee na grand war fought there that caused the inhabitants to resolve to restore it and make it peaceful. Just an idea for content.

I liked the idea of rebuilding Telos and the artificial surface, etc. in TSL--matter of fact Metroid is more or less about cybernetic and mechanical life forms spawning of their own in nature. Cybernetics crossed with nature is one *major* area that has not been touched upon yet and IMO there ought to be an entire planet devoted just to that. I do suspect we will see some surfacing emphasis of Technobeasts and some mentions of Belia Darzu to that end, but that might end up being on Tython unless it just so happens to be elsewhere. My point being here: I want to see more of this sith alchemy at work and I have wanted to see more about Sith technobeasts and similar.

Gall is another planet similar to Tatooine that has smuggler's havens etc.--maybe it could once have had a major population and a mega-metropolitian sized city.

I'm not seeing very much effort to stray out and expand upon what already exists.

What enigma did Hoth ever have? It was never mysterious, it never had any mysteries. It was an icy hellhole with wampas and tauntauns and lots of snow. There was no enigma to shatter. At least now that it's had a huge battle in orbit in the past, that gives a bit of mystery to the world.
If I came there as a Jedi, it better have a cave full of mysterious crystals or something. That's all I'd have to say about it.

In all honesty there's only so many different types of landscapes you can have.

But does it necessarily have to be the same planet? I.E. Mustafar and Serapin are similar in terms of lava climate and little is likeley to have changed in a few thousand years from a geological standpoint.

Also, Imdar has similarity to both Endor Moon and Dagobah. Yes I played Rebel Assault 2.

As I said before Hoth is an iconic SW location right along with Coruscant, Alderaan, and Tatooine. That, more than anything else, I'm sure is the reason it was included. Along the same line Taris is an iconic KOTOR/Old Republic location which I'm sure is why it was included.

I don't have a problem with it as I previously stated. Iconic locations are a part of any MMO that stems from a long running franchise. WoW has an unfounded number of them, SWG has them etc...etc...

So then what do you have a problem with? I have a problem that it is relying upon more of the same and isn't appearing to strive outward to grow--at least by this point it would appear.

I'd like to also bitch about features innovation for MMO gameplay but since I'm hardly knowledgeable about such things since I've never played an MMO.

sarpedon2
05-24-2010, 03:20 AM
Hoth in and of itself isn't necessarily too bad but it looks like the creativity team has little in the way of original new ideas.

This probably my main problem with this game. Everything I see from TOR is just copying the Galactic Empire era in terms of design. I don't understand how they leaped from the designs of KOTOR, TSL and the KOTOR comics, which only happened 300 years earlier. The story and locations seem to lack originality. While the game has alot of back-story, their really doesn't seem to be an actual game-story at the moment, rather just being a Jedi, Republic, Sith or Bounty Hunter and going round doing quests that while in a single player game, would have an impact on the storyline, doing that in a MMO, where alot of people are doing the same thing, doesn't really make an impact probably on how the storyline goes.

RogueJedi86
05-24-2010, 05:52 AM
I hope it includes some other life forms that aren't extinct yet by this time period. Also, it better have some caves and a good history of the planet. Maybe some other awesome stuff hidden below the surface.

I noticed one other lifeform in the video on Hoth's Holonet page(click the Mountain icon at top right on the page). The first shot in the video shows something moving slightly in the foreground. It looks like a buffalo to me, but it's hard to tell from this distance. Plus Wookieepedia lists several species native to Hoth, and the "Wildlife Guide to Star Wars" shows at least 3 sub-species of tauntauns(Common/Giant Tauntaun, Glacier Tauntaun, and Dwarf/Climbing Tauntaun). Even on Earth we find tons of life in the most inhospitable areas, so Hoth having a lot of wild creatures wouldn't be unreasonable. But yeah, I'm agreeing with you on the other lifeforms, GTA: SWcity.

Tommycat
05-24-2010, 10:00 AM
Well I don't think the Empire and Republic are going to stay and make Hoth their home. They're only there long enough to recover their wrecked ships, then they'll leave. It actually fits nicely with Hoth looking untouched in ESB. We have 3500 years for people to salvage their ships and the snow to cover up what little is left behind, and leave it looking like no one was there.
Thermopolae
Sure it's only 2500 years, but that's about right. Seeing as how they have galactic records and such, we're talking documented and recorded history. Heck they even use the same language(galactic basic). So yeah, I'd expect the Empire would have known about it as a place where people would hide.

sigh... but I guess they had to have a reason to send a probe there, so Maybe it can still fit.

darthfergie
05-24-2010, 01:08 PM
Thermopolae
Sure it's only 2500 years, but that's about right. Seeing as how they have galactic records and such, we're talking documented and recorded history. Heck they even use the same language(galactic basic). So yeah, I'd expect the Empire would have known about it as a place where people would hide.

sigh... but I guess they had to have a reason to send a probe there, so Maybe it can still fit.

One sad problem with the records is that EU is constantly showing how records are destroyed over and over again by various regimes. There could have been the galactic seat of the empire on Hoth 2500 years ago and no one would have known it with the way they keep their records.

RogueJedi86
05-24-2010, 02:30 PM
Thermopolae
Sure it's only 2500 years, but that's about right. Seeing as how they have galactic records and such, we're talking documented and recorded history. Heck they even use the same language(galactic basic). So yeah, I'd expect the Empire would have known about it as a place where people would hide.

sigh... but I guess they had to have a reason to send a probe there, so Maybe it can still fit.

As far as I know, the Empire sent out MILLIONS of probes to every world they could in an attempt to find the Rebels. Hoth being one of them wasn't some intentional "Hey let's send a probe to this world just because it had a space battle in its orbit 2500 years ago!". The officers on the Executor even scoffed at Vader for saying he knew the Rebels were there.

Also, would you say Thermopylae is a very busy happening place just because of that one battle there 2500 years ago? *ignores the other 6 battles listed on wikipedia because we're only remembering the one battle 2500 years ago* The SW universe is HUGE. I'm sure with its size, space battles happened over millions of random worlds during the Republic's 25,000 year history. So even if Hoth had a space battle over it, that's hardly going to make it unique, especially during times of war(imagine all the random worlds that had space battles in the Clone Wars, for example).

Plus that thing Fergie said on the records being wiped all the time. If the Republic kept records like you think they do, they'd have been paranoid about the Sith taking over the Republic(due to long wars with the Sith 3500 and 1000 years previously) and would've been much more prepared for Palpatine's sudden rise to power.

True_Avery
05-25-2010, 05:47 AM
*Shrugs* Why have Tatooine? Taris?

Of course they are using a well known Star Wars planet. Why wouldn't they. It pulls in attention and familiarity, broadens the audience, and so on. The majority of the people who play the game aren't going to be us Star Wars nerds worried if every single thing fits into what can laughably be called Star Wars continuity.

If it wasn't SWTOR or Bioware, it would have been a book, comic, game, etc. I've found that holding any piece of Star Wars lore as precious and untouchable is a pipe dream at this point, since given enough time some author is going to find some way to screw/fix something. I could rage for hours on what SWTOR did to Revan, TSL, and so on but what Bioware is doing only scratches on the ruins that the Kotor Comics left behind.

Another thing: *Are* they going to actually call it Hoth? I thought this planet was going to be named after the Jedi Lord Hoth--which has yet to happen for another 2700 years by the continuity of the storyline.
Way to go on this one. (If they hurry and give it a predecessor name quickly, nobody will notice this whatsit needs attention and a retcon.)
Tales of the Jedi explains that he was named after the planet, so Hoth was named and known long before Jedi Master Hoth.

RogueJedi86
05-25-2010, 01:23 PM
Plus at least BioWare is sticking to the lore more than the Clone Wars cartoon. Sure BioWare is reusing movie planets like Hoth, but at least they aren't completely changing a planet's climate like Clone War' writers did with Ryloth when they changed it from a tidally locked planet to one that rotates and has a boring old day and night cycle like every other world. I'm still mad at TCW for doing for that. And don't even get me started on the hippie Mandos. The fandom at Wookieepedia has been reeling with the retcons they need to fit these random changes into the pre-existing lore. Compared to that, TOR is one of the most faithful bits of EU ever.

Ztalker
05-25-2010, 05:37 PM
Plus at least BioWare is sticking to the lore more than the Clone Wars cartoon. Sure BioWare is reusing movie planets like Hoth, but at least they aren't completely changing a planet's climate like Clone War' writers did with Ryloth when they changed it from a tidally locked planet to one that rotates and has a boring old day and night cycle like every other world. I'm still mad at TCW for doing for that. And don't even get me started on the hippie Mandos. The fandom at Wookieepedia has been reeling with the retcons they need to fit these random changes into the pre-existing lore. Compared to that, TOR is one of the most faithful bits of EU ever.

Faithful as in good to the source material, or ONLY using well-known source materials?

To draw another parallel to WoW: All areas from the Warcraft series were visitable, but new ones were created as well. They based everything on the RTS games but went to tell a different story.
I feel, for example, the appearance of the Hammerhead-cruisers in the time-update thingies fantastic. It's a line of ships clearly based on the ones in Kotor.
The use of armor, excellent. Not those standard trooper armors, but colourful, decorated armors like in ToTJ.

Hoth is something completely different.
Compare this to, for example, Korriban, another cliché world. That has been adapted FOR the game however.

RogueJedi86
05-25-2010, 05:42 PM
I'd say it's faithful in both ways. They stick to the lore of worlds, they're not doing anything lore-breaking like TCW did with Ryloth(grrr). Plus they're using lore sources of all types, from the movies(with planets like Tatooine, Coruscant, and Hoth) to the more obscure EU(like Tython, Belsavis, and Voss).

What worlds were adapted for TOR? Hoth is still a frozen hellhole, it's still Hoth. I'd understand if TOR did something like KotOR did with Tatooine(implying it was a lush world before their brand-new-just-for-KotOR villains glassed it into a sandy wasteland), changing Hoth to a world like Naboo that was freezing over due to the Empire. But Hoth is still the same wasteland it always was before BioWare put it in TOR.

DAWUSS
05-25-2010, 11:27 PM
. I've found that holding any piece of Star Wars lore as precious and untouchable is a pipe dream at this point, since given enough time some author is going to find some way to screw/fix something.

Sadly, this.


And IIRC, most of that sort of thing has come only in the past decade.

I think Wookieepedia has become part of the problem in most aspects because everything's right there for you to see in one convenient package. If it wasn't for that, many changes to the existing elements/entities would go unnoticed by the majority of fans.

adamqd
05-26-2010, 03:55 AM
I'm grateful for wookieepedia, Its a great resource, especially for casual fans, but I don't dislike the fact that it points out inconsistencies, I dislike the fact that people insist on using it to argue points they obviously don't care about as they haven't read the source material... If you don't want to read for example, Legacy of the Force: Revelation, You shouldn't come in to a discussion and say "Actually Jaina Solo mastered the Shatterpoint technique while training to fight her brother you idiot lol, don't you know anything?"

This is again sadly true with Canon, the amount of people who come on to forums saying that continuity is in shreds are not right, not even close, its just hearsay claimed as fact... yea there has been and will continue to be retcon, and in some cases it is acceptable but Star Wars is FAR from convoluted. Just take time to read the source material rather than looking at wookieepedia just to rip it down.

Edit: btw this is not directed at anyone in particular, just a chip I had to brush off my shoulder when Wookieepedia was mentioned :)

Gurges-Ahter
05-26-2010, 09:52 AM
^^^ Excellent post, adamqd. I couldn't agree more.

However, given the seemingly inherent inclination of Star Wars "fans" to complain about anything and everything, it's only a natural extension to stand on the shoulders of previous complainers as source material for new complaints.

adamqd
05-26-2010, 10:38 AM
haha yea, and I must admit I complain ALOT, but I at least try to get involved in discussions pertaining to things I enjoy or have investment in rather than arguing for the sake of argument

RogueJedi86
05-26-2010, 02:44 PM
SW has one of the more organized EUs. I hear all the various Star Trek novels aren't canon at all in any form. That makes it hard to take them seriously.

True_Avery
05-26-2010, 03:29 PM
This is again sadly true with Canon, the amount of people who come on to forums saying that continuity is in shreds are not right, not even close, its just hearsay claimed as fact... yea there has been and will continue to be retcon, and in some cases it is acceptable but Star Wars is FAR from convoluted. Just take time to read the source material rather than looking at wookieepedia just to rip it down.
I wouldn't say it is as convoluted as, say, Star Trek. Star Wars canon has a pretty neat system of retcon all things considered, and something either fits, is made to fit, or sits on the different parts of the canon scale.

It isn't so much that canon is convoluted as much as its like the town bicycle. It seems all too easy to go in and retcon entire areas of previous history with a single movie, book, game, and so on. Look at Hoth. A previously almost unknown planet that seemingly nobody bothered with, and now its an elephant graveyard working in a proxy war for resources. This doesn't so much make canon convoluted as much as there is an issue with previously established canon being too easy to rewrite, alter, or override entirely. Think, for example, all the canon that was completely retconned when the prequel trilogy came out. Hell, the attack on the Jedi Temple in SWTOR rewrites all sorts of things in history, not the mention the previous examples of recorded history being deleted by people. Force Unleashed also took a nice swipe at canon.

Maybe convoluted is the wrong word; how about busy? It isn't anywhere near the worst example, but Star Wars Canon isn't so much "in shreds" as it it a dress made of the discarded shreds of other dresses. It functions as a dress, but if you don't like that sleeve you can just rip it off and replace it with a new color.

RogueJedi86
05-26-2010, 03:45 PM
What canon does the TOR attack on the Jedi Temple break? I thought we got rid of most of the problems of clashes on the Republic's age with the Ruusan Reformation retcons around the time of TPM and AotC.

Darth Avlectus
05-27-2010, 12:08 AM
@adamqd: Not sure if you were directing that at me, but I try not to use wookieepedia hearsay. It just so happened that Hoth bit I was referring to was in fact an open ended-table scrap that got a reverso when I wasn't looking.

*<brevity>
If it wasn't SWTOR or Bioware, it would have been a book, comic, game, etc. I've found that holding any piece of Star Wars lore as precious and untouchable is a pipe dream at this point, since given enough time some author is going to find some way to screw/fix something. I could rage for hours on what SWTOR did to Revan, TSL, and so on but what Bioware is doing only scratches on the ruins that the Kotor Comics left behind.

Good point.

Tales of the Jedi explains that he was named after the planet, so Hoth was named and known long before Jedi Master Hoth.

Oy. Back to the drawing board I guess. Another casualty of subtle retcon. Suppose it *could* be worse.

RogueJedi86
05-27-2010, 12:12 AM
If you look at the Dev Tracker on Lucasforums, Drew Karpyshyn made a post on the TOR boards clarifying that Hoth was indeed named at least as early as TOR, and that it wasn't named after Lord Hoth. Lord Hoth was possibly named after the planet, but it's not for sure. Check his post for more.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2993503#edit2993503

adamqd
05-27-2010, 01:46 PM
@adamqd: Not sure if you were directing that at me,

btw this is not directed at anyone in particular, just a chip I had to brush off my shoulder when Wookieepedia was mentioned :)

No bud :)

dswtor
08-30-2010, 04:19 PM
Looking sweet.