PDA

View Full Version : They did it for Baldur's Gate...


Aster Lac'nala
08-01-2010, 10:44 PM
Wondering if anybody has made a mod to put the original KotOR game into the KotOR2 engine. I played the latter one on my friend's X-Box first and it got me interested; later, I went and bought the PC versions of both for myself. But I never finished the original (which I am told is a better story - I know most of it) because the sequel's engine spoiled me. Lightsabers that used Dex, multiple classes with Diplomacy, getting extra skills when you went from 14 to 16 Intelligence (or 18 to 20), and my personal favorite, better workbench usage.

Recently I tried to play the original again and the same thing happened - the engine is too offputting, so I dropped it.

Also, somewhat separately (but awesome if I can get both) is there a mod that will let me play a Tech Spec in KotOR?

N-5/Prudii
08-02-2010, 12:31 AM
A great idea, but it would require MAJOR porting, which is not allowed here.

Rtas Vadum
08-02-2010, 01:24 AM
Well, you do have to understand that both games use the same engine. However, K2's is a modified version, adding a number of things that we all know K1 either doesn't have(dual-weapon slots), or things you just couldn't do(upgrade lightsabers beyond just crystals, etc).

Though with some other games this might be feasible(since it would've been made specifically so large changes, like new areas, models, textures, animations, etc, can be put into the game with little difficulty. But KOTOR wasn't really made for that, even though significant changes can be made to both of the games. Though at any point you start mentioning certain kinds of changes, it either proves impossible, or just like N-5 said, not allowed.

vanir
08-02-2010, 03:56 AM
It is a good story and you really should play it through from the perspective of reading a really good book. Look past the gaming system, it's part of its atmosphere anyway. It's simpler than TSL but this does have the benefit of allowing one to more concentrate on the story and keep the action moving quickly.
You really must get deeply involved in that, but when it came out and I didn't know I was Revan until the game told me, well let's just say it was that first playthrough when Kotor was released that really blew my mind, I literally locked myself in my room for about a week and played it straight through, totally engrossed, glued to the screen and almost genuinely depressed when it was over.
And it was hard. Took two tries...the first one I didn't make it off Dantooine and realised I really had to think and make the PC as tough as I possibly can to get through to the end.

TSL was disappointing in both these regards. The story killed by rushed release, difficulty level killed by LucasArts policy, what was left had a high level RPG gaming system and a beginners level quest with themes dark enough to attract goths but logical progression and plotlines splintered enough to only attract preteen adolescents. It's as if LucasArts got a top fuel dragster and said how can we make this into a gocart for 8 year olds, poor TSL didn't survive the butchering or curtailed development or its utterly nonsensical target market enforcement.
The TSLRCM has pretty much saved Kotor II completely (I'm thoroughly enjoying my first playthrough with this mod, thankfully didn't spoil the experience with earlier release versions of the mod further than the first planet visited).

But none of this matches that original Kotor experience.
Part of it was Bioware given enough free reign by LucasArts and developers having some acquaintences among the Dark Horse comics team for that Old Republic era, the Ulic Qel Droma story and Great Hyperspace War and everything.
So they targeted the mid-teen market from the getgo with a mid-level RPG (the beginner stages are really prologue and player training for the game system, which is NWN anyway so it's easy and has background with a classical d20 system).
The story plot suited the mid-teen market, but was well developed with as much professionalism as any fantasy genre trilogy you might find in bookstores for the mid-teen market.
It all made sense, worked together, was matched well.
It wasn't piecemeal like TSL, conceived for mature teens, released for young teens, it makes no sense.

So on this level, play Kotor. Forget the shell.

Darth_Calo
08-02-2010, 06:30 PM
It is a good story and you really should play it through from the perspective of reading a really good book. Look past the gaming system, it's part of its atmosphere anyway. It's simpler than TSL but this does have the benefit of allowing one to more concentrate on the story and keep the action moving quickly.
You really must get deeply involved in that, but when it came out and I didn't know I was Revan until the game told me, well let's just say it was that first playthrough when Kotor was released that really blew my mind, I literally locked myself in my room for about a week and played it straight through, totally engrossed, glued to the screen and almost genuinely depressed when it was over.
And it was hard. Took two tries...the first one I didn't make it off Dantooine and realised I really had to think and make the PC as tough as I possibly can to get through to the end.

TSL was disappointing in both these regards. The story killed by rushed release, difficulty level killed by LucasArts policy, what was left had a high level RPG gaming system and a beginners level quest with themes dark enough to attract goths but logical progression and plotlines splintered enough to only attract preteen adolescents. It's as if LucasArts got a top fuel dragster and said how can we make this into a gocart for 8 year olds, poor TSL didn't survive the butchering or curtailed development or its utterly nonsensical target market enforcement.
The TSLRCM has pretty much saved Kotor II completely (I'm thoroughly enjoying my first playthrough with this mod, thankfully didn't spoil the experience with earlier release versions of the mod further than the first planet visited).

But none of this matches that original Kotor experience.
Part of it was Bioware given enough free reign by LucasArts and developers having some acquaintences among the Dark Horse comics team for that Old Republic era, the Ulic Qel Droma story and Great Hyperspace War and everything.
So they targeted the mid-teen market from the getgo with a mid-level RPG (the beginner stages are really prologue and player training for the game system, which is NWN anyway so it's easy and has background with a classical d20 system).
The story plot suited the mid-teen market, but was well developed with as much professionalism as any fantasy genre trilogy you might find in bookstores for the mid-teen market.
It all made sense, worked together, was matched well.
It wasn't piecemeal like TSL, conceived for mature teens, released for young teens, it makes no sense.

So on this level, play Kotor. Forget the shell.

I'm going to go the opposite way of Vanir, although I thoroughly respect his opinion.

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic was a great game. When you saw the name "BioWare" on it, you automatically knew it was destined for greatness. Just look at some of their other gems: Never Winter Nights, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2...the list goes on.

Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords was a better game. (audience gasps) what? yes. The idea that you (the Jedi Exile) could train at least 3-4 of your party members--who start off as normal everyday characters--was amazing. in the first game, you only have yourself (Revan), Bastila, Jolee and Juhani as Jedi. And the character development: the backstories of the characters, being based off the PC's level to see what you could open up rather than, being based on influence.

and the influence system in and of itself was amazing. in KotOR 1, Carth gets mad if you gun down an innocent civilian, but you dont lose any sway over him. It would have been interesting if BioWare had included influence, if you could have convinced Mission to forsake the Republic instead of a DS Revan having to kill her. Same with Juhani, who was DS to start with but then all of a sudden snaps back to preachy-jediness without skipping a beat.

Was TSL a shell? yes. was it satisfying without TSLRCM? eh I'll say yes (because I've never played it with TSLRCM)

If the second game included a space port at Korriban (the galaxy map says docking at Dreshdae, but you land in the valley of the dark lords., and included 1-2 more planets, not necessarily with Jedi Masters, but just trade hub worlds (I would have liked to have been able to return to Manaan, Kashyyk, the Yavin Space Station...) well all that stuff would have made it so much better.

The Sith Lords was definitely rushed and incomplete. but, the larger variety of upgrades and larger variety of weapons (I got so used to using my elite watchman blaster with the best upgrades that when the best I could use in the first one was, Bendak's blaster with the four upgrade items)

The fact that you start off as a Jedi without a lightsaber in TSL was dissapointing. The Peragus Mining Facility is possibly the worst Level in any game. There are nooo organics to talk to besides Atton and Kreia.

HK-47 is also much funnier (is that a word? oh well) in TSL. hearing his take on his travels with Revan were hysterical, especially his mockeries of Bastila 'oh master i hate what you stand for but i love you..we should go press our slimey muckus cover lips together in the cargo hold!' and carth 'master, i can not trust you or anyone ever again!'

T3-M4 goes from one time use character (I mean, how many people ever used him after infiltrating the Sith Base on Taris?) to closer to R2-D2, his obvious inspiration. He's actually helpful!

The Ebon Hawk in TSL looks like it has seen better days. (which it has) that cage in the garage and over the starboard (or was it port?) engine is just ugly. it would almost be better to have just had the Ebon Hawk have the hole in it when you travel.

both games have the frustrating space turret games, but KotOR 1 forces it on you far more often (sometimes it feels like every time I travel i am being attacked)

TSL makes it optional.

Ultimately, the are both great games, and each one needs the other to feel like a true story. they'd both benefit from a KotOR III, but since that is *almost* impossible at this point (has anyone thought to start an online petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/)?)

Despite it's faults, I do ultimately give the edge to Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Rtas Vadum
08-03-2010, 12:32 AM
Well, to be honest, I liked TSL's story alot better that K1's, which wasn't exactly because of how dark it was. Both games have their inherent darkness(if you don't mind killing everything in reach of your lightsaber or blaster), but K1's was a lot more tame, mostly because its aim was to emulate the OT, which wasn't very dark(maybe ESB was).


and the influence system in and of itself was amazing. in KotOR 1, Carth gets mad if you gun down an innocent civilian, but you dont lose any sway over him. It would have been interesting if BioWare had included influence, if you could have convinced Mission to forsake the Republic instead of a DS Revan having to kill her. Same with Juhani, who was DS to start with but then all of a sudden snaps back to preachy-jediness without skipping a beat.

Quite annoying that. Say you want that second Pearl from Komad, and you have either Bastila or Juhani with you. Sure, they will berate you for going against Komad, but then two seconds later, there they are, attacking him along with you.(I know its the A.I, but work with me here) While it might be okay with out Influence, with it, you'd have less of them whining("Why would you do such a thing?"), and more of them at least agreeing with you. However, even the way TSL did it wasn't the best. Sure, you could have them pretty much maxed in Influence, but it drops if you do something 'wrong'(Maybe you have the Handmaiden just as DS as you are, then you side with Azkul - INF decrease).


The fact that you start off as a Jedi without a lightsaber in TSL was dissapointing. The Peragus Mining Facility is possibly the worst Level in any game. There are nooo organics to talk to besides Atton and Kreia.
While I'm not exactly that fond of the length of it, I can't say I hate it. Its similar to almost any space-movie(namely Event Horizon and Alien), which is almost a given, but even more so in that its a nearly abandoned space-construct, in which there aren't many people alive. And all you have to contend with is a bunch of droids, and the fact that the obvious path to the EH is blocked.

And given what the Exile did with his/her saber, it is unlikely that they had others. It might not've been the worst thing if you at least found a part on the Harbinger(in the Exile's locker), but then that just makes you wait longer for the rest of them.


The Ebon Hawk in TSL looks like it has seen better days. (which it has) that cage in the garage and over the starboard (or was it port?) engine is just ugly. it would almost be better to have just had the Ebon Hawk have the hole in it when you travel.

I don't think those scaffolds don't look that bad, but that probably falls in the area of things they had planned, but never got to. I.e being able to fully fix the EH, with enough credits(possibly another reason for Tien Tubb's shop).

both games have the frustrating space turret games, but KotOR 1 forces it on you far more often (sometimes it feels like every time I travel i am being attacked)

Upon first playing K1, I hated those parts. Though now they aren't problem, I still like it better that TSL makes them optional. However, its only twice in the game, unless I'm mistaken.

vanir
08-03-2010, 05:44 AM
Without a doubt the gaming system refinement of TSL was superb, and beyond everything else that was a worthy part of going from Kotor to it. The influence system, being able to train Jedi students, prestige classes (further enhanced by the mod reintroducing control/sense/alter prerequisites for force power selection I uploaded inspired by Paragon's d20 mod-which is credited and no original material is copied...it slows down force power advancement and characterises the Jedi classes better).

These things definitely add a further depth to TSL which one could only look forward to coming from Kotor, but without the TSLRCM the story is very broken, the plot lines splintered enough not to make a lot of sense without accessing the community and wookieepedia or knowing the Dark Horse comics, and the whole game has a very solitary feel for the PC, with less sense of freedom since by the time you get full command of the Ebon Hawk and your destiny you've really only got a couple of planets left to explore. At the same juncture in Kotor you've still got pretty much the whole main quest and most of the planets to visit at your leisure, with time to take in their visual splendor and sense of active communities completely independent of the PC.

This forces a player agenda to try to recruit the whole party as Jedi within the first two planets instead of taking your time, exploring, enjoying and taking things as they come. It's distracting and coupled with the very solitary feel of the vanilla game where Kotor's atmosphere was just more epic from the existential point of view. You have to pause frequently in TSL to take in the scenes which have just transpired in order to enjoy their scope, if you keep moving it's all over before you can blink, followed by long periods of hack and slash which gets tedious.

That said I've noticed the TSLRCM changes this completely, the scope is much larger and the sense of active communities restored, the plot lines follow a much more linear and logical path and the overall story makes much more sense as you play it rather than trying to take the last gaming session in after you've saved and exited. It is altogether more epic and returned an element which TSL was missing and Kotor had.

So the verdict so far on my TSLRCM playthrough is that the cut content destroyed TSL more than any other single factor, and with this restored it is an altogether far better game worthy of its predecessor's mantle, with several improvements.

The major feature I would've introduced if I'd been one of the developers would've been that you could construct a lightsabre at the workbench early in the game (probably based on awareness skill rather than repair since it is the universal Jedi class skill, like the workbench mod I uploaded).
So that whilst at Peragus you begin without a lightsabre, once you gather some 40-odd components and have some awareness skill points up, still on the station you can reconstruct your own lightsabre at the workbench, rather than making it a major quest.

Questing for scattered lightsabre parts should be something a non-Jedi class seeking to become a Jedi class should have to do, and it seems a bit odd Bao Dur who has no direct connection with the Jedi Order is responsible as a proxy for your producing a lightsabre.
It's out of place for an exiled former Jedi Knight, whom should be able to construct his own lightsabre using base components and skill use at a workbench, by himself. The only difficult part is the crystal and I'd have definitely introduced a special canonical feature about this.

Jedi Knights have to quest to find a focusing crystal for lightsabres. Blue (adegan) and Green (Sigil) are the most commonly found throughout the galaxy, but Orange (Upari) are found near the Miraluka world of Katarr and Purple (Pontite) are extremely rare, found only among systems nearby ancient supernova remnants. I'm working by tabletop RPG canon here, and these crystals do influence the damage properties of the blade, and can also be combined to provide other enhancements, along with technical modifications to the sabre itself but I digress.

So a Jedi Knight has to find himself a focusing crystal, the only essential part he can't construct himself from raw components at a workbench. Peragus being a mining colony it is in fact more than likely a crystal of some description, capable of being used in lightsabre construction would be found in the mining tunnels somewhere, or a minerals refinement storage area. The PC should be able to construct a basic, short bladed Orange-yellow lightsabre at Peragus by the end of the stage, to use in the final battles on the station.

Here I would also introduce the cononical, tremendous difference between Jedi and Sith which speaks to the philosophical differences between the two religions. Sith use artificial crystals. The reason they're red is because they're artificial and made by the user. In the game, you would be able to make red lightsabre crystals at the workbench. And it is part of the Jedi Code that you only use natural crystals in lightsabre construction because of their connection to the Force (rather than a manipulation of nature).

So you could construct a red Sith lightsabre about halfway through Peragus on skills and components alone, or construct a Jedi lightsabre towards the end of Peragus by finding a natural crystal somewhere in the facility.
And I'd just make a prerequisite for constructing lightsabres at the workbench, you must first just have a focusing crystal of the appropriate colour. And you can construct only red ones but must find any other colour. And the red ones signify a Sith lightsabre.

I'd have made that an integral part of TSL and dropped the Bao Dur linked, entirely too drawn out lightsabre quest for an accomplished ex-Jedi Knight who should already be able to make his own without help, with only a crystal and some raw components, right from the start.

Holty1-5
08-03-2010, 05:45 AM
(has anyone thought to start an online petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/)?)

Their is one :D i click your click. then searched Kotor on the first one and their it was xD so far it has 16888 sigs

darth-me
08-03-2010, 03:18 PM
wow vanir you've really thought that stuff about lightsabers through, i'm now wondering how complex a mod that would be to make, unfortunately i'm not really a modder, cobbled a few little things together, but nothing serious. I still might have a stab at it but i'm not sure how difficult it would be to make it all work... But it would be a great addition to the game if someone could make all that work.

Darth_Calo
08-03-2010, 03:43 PM
Without a doubt the gaming system refinement of TSL was superb, and beyond everything else that was a worthy part of going from Kotor to it. The influence system, being able to train Jedi students, prestige classes (further enhanced by the mod reintroducing control/sense/alter prerequisites for force power selection I uploaded inspired by Paragon's d20 mod-which is credited and no original material is copied...it slows down force power advancement and characterises the Jedi classes better).

These things definitely add a further depth to TSL which one could only look forward to coming from Kotor, but without the TSLRCM the story is very broken, the plot lines splintered enough not to make a lot of sense without accessing the community and wookieepedia or knowing the Dark Horse comics, and the whole game has a very solitary feel for the PC, with less sense of freedom since by the time you get full command of the Ebon Hawk and your destiny you've really only got a couple of planets left to explore. At the same juncture in Kotor you've still got pretty much the whole main quest and most of the planets to visit at your leisure, with time to take in their visual splendor and sense of active communities completely independent of the PC.

This forces a player agenda to try to recruit the whole party as Jedi within the first two planets instead of taking your time, exploring, enjoying and taking things as they come. It's distracting and coupled with the very solitary feel of the vanilla game where Kotor's atmosphere was just more epic from the existential point of view. You have to pause frequently in TSL to take in the scenes which have just transpired in order to enjoy their scope, if you keep moving it's all over before you can blink, followed by long periods of hack and slash which gets tedious.

That said I've noticed the TSLRCM changes this completely, the scope is much larger and the sense of active communities restored, the plot lines follow a much more linear and logical path and the overall story makes much more sense as you play it rather than trying to take the last gaming session in after you've saved and exited. It is altogether more epic and returned an element which TSL was missing and Kotor had.

So the verdict so far on my TSLRCM playthrough is that the cut content destroyed TSL more than any other single factor, and with this restored it is an altogether far better game worthy of its predecessor's mantle, with several improvements.

The major feature I would've introduced if I'd been one of the developers would've been that you could construct a lightsabre at the workbench early in the game (probably based on awareness skill rather than repair since it is the universal Jedi class skill, like the workbench mod I uploaded).
So that whilst at Peragus you begin without a lightsabre, once you gather some 40-odd components and have some awareness skill points up, still on the station you can reconstruct your own lightsabre at the workbench, rather than making it a major quest.

Questing for scattered lightsabre parts should be something a non-Jedi class seeking to become a Jedi class should have to do, and it seems a bit odd Bao Dur who has no direct connection with the Jedi Order is responsible as a proxy for your producing a lightsabre.
It's out of place for an exiled former Jedi Knight, whom should be able to construct his own lightsabre using base components and skill use at a workbench, by himself. The only difficult part is the crystal and I'd have definitely introduced a special canonical feature about this.

Jedi Knights have to quest to find a focusing crystal for lightsabres. Blue (adegan) and Green (Sigil) are the most commonly found throughout the galaxy, but Orange (Upari) are found near the Miraluka world of Katarr and Purple (Pontite) are extremely rare, found only among systems nearby ancient supernova remnants. I'm working by tabletop RPG canon here, and these crystals do influence the damage properties of the blade, and can also be combined to provide other enhancements, along with technical modifications to the sabre itself but I digress.

So a Jedi Knight has to find himself a focusing crystal, the only essential part he can't construct himself from raw components at a workbench. Peragus being a mining colony it is in fact more than likely a crystal of some description, capable of being used in lightsabre construction would be found in the mining tunnels somewhere, or a minerals refinement storage area. The PC should be able to construct a basic, short bladed Orange-yellow lightsabre at Peragus by the end of the stage, to use in the final battles on the station.

Here I would also introduce the cononical, tremendous difference between Jedi and Sith which speaks to the philosophical differences between the two religions. Sith use artificial crystals. The reason they're red is because they're artificial and made by the user. In the game, you would be able to make red lightsabre crystals at the workbench. And it is part of the Jedi Code that you only use natural crystals in lightsabre construction because of their connection to the Force (rather than a manipulation of nature).

So you could construct a red Sith lightsabre about halfway through Peragus on skills and components alone, or construct a Jedi lightsabre towards the end of Peragus by finding a natural crystal somewhere in the facility.
And I'd just make a prerequisite for constructing lightsabres at the workbench, you must first just have a focusing crystal of the appropriate colour. And you can construct only red ones but must find any other colour. And the red ones signify a Sith lightsabre.

I'd have made that an integral part of TSL and dropped the Bao Dur linked, entirely too drawn out lightsabre quest for an accomplished ex-Jedi Knight who should already be able to make his own without help, with only a crystal and some raw components, right from the start.

I agree with you about the lightsaber part. I mean sure, you're an "Exile," but you can't just stop being a Jedi; its a part of who they are. you are no longer a jedi, but that is in name only: the essence of what being a Jedi is, remains engraved in the Exile's mind, which is why he/she is able to reconnect to the force, and why he/she can still form bonds with people. I loved TSL for the stuff like converting Atton, Bao-Dur Mira, the Handmaiden or the Disciple into Jedi (or Dark Jedi). The storyline of tracking down the last of the Jedi is compelling: I just wish that Kreia didn't kill them if you're LS. that's where the story lost me. I gather the Jedi and they decide to strip me of the force again. it almost makes killing them more sensible; but then Kreia still gets mad at me. so you can't win with her. I feel like Kreia's whole character was tossed together at the last minute. same with Atris. Although Atton's dialog is the most splintered. in KotOR you could talk to each party member (well, except for Zaalbar and T3-M4, and to a degree, HK-47 because his personal quest is the memory repairs and learning he used to belong to you) and it would activate a "personal quest": Carth's son; Bastila's mom; Jagi; Sunry's murder trial; Juhani's former tormentor. in TSL, you learn virtually nothing about most characters except for Mira. Kreia is cryptic and distant, Atton only opens up if you talk to the Twi'leks. Bao-Dur, you're supposed to know all about him because you're his former general. It's a fragile alliance at best. and the Light Side choices are much more difficult to choose. it almost forces you into dark side choices. or at least that's what I got out of it. With the smuggling on Citadel station, you can either get a small reward from Grenn or a large reward from Samhan. if you turn in samhan, you dont get to buy from his stash.

Rtas Vadum
08-03-2010, 04:34 PM
The storyline of tracking down the last of the Jedi is compelling: I just wish that Kreia didn't kill them if you're LS. that's where the story lost me. I gather the Jedi and they decide to strip me of the force again.

There are reasons for both. Kreia kills the Jedi, because as you've seen, they refuse to change their minds about the Exile. They still believe that the Exile is exactly like Nihilus, which isn't true. They are similar, but the exile doesn't need to absorb life like Nihilus does, as it is more of a passive ability. Which relates to why they try stripping the Exile of the Force. Rather than looking at the truth, or even hearing it directly from the Exile, they simply think that she is more of a danger than anything else.

Both Kavar and Zez are willing to discuss this with you when you finally meet them, but when they are united, their opinion is the same, in that they don't want to discuss the issue. They just want to put you in Exile again, and leave without the force. Which solves nothing, as then Sion and Nihilus would've likely tracked down the remaining masters, Telos would've died again, and eventually it would be like nothing changed.

Of course, most of what Kreia says, or is about, is picking on the mechanics of the engine itself. Looting bodies("Find what your looking for amongst the dead?", and of course those on Korriban), tries to make you think seriously about the choices you make, etc.

Darth_Calo
08-03-2010, 07:38 PM
There are reasons for both. Kreia kills the Jedi, because as you've seen, they refuse to change their minds about the Exile. They still believe that the Exile is exactly like Nihilus, which isn't true. They are similar, but the exile doesn't need to absorb life like Nihilus does, as it is more of a passive ability. Which relates to why they try stripping the Exile of the Force. Rather than looking at the truth, or even hearing it directly from the Exile, they simply think that she is more of a danger than anything else.

Both Kavar and Zez are willing to discuss this with you when you finally meet them, but when they are united, their opinion is the same, in that they don't want to discuss the issue. They just want to put you in Exile again, and leave without the force. Which solves nothing, as then Sion and Nihilus would've likely tracked down the remaining masters, Telos would've died again, and eventually it would be like nothing changed.

Of course, most of what Kreia says, or is about, is picking on the mechanics of the engine itself. Looting bodies("Find what your looking for amongst the dead?", and of course those on Korriban), tries to make you think seriously about the choices you make, etc.

hmm, yes, I see your point. haha I guess I just never really thought deeply about what i was doing in these games; I turn Dark Side without a moment's hesitation, because in KotOR 1 i reallyyy liked Bastila, and in KotOR 2 I reallyyy didn't like Kreia (I only kept her in my party when it was absolutely needed; half the time she never got stronger than level 6-7) so the fact that you toss her body into Malachor's core when you're Dark Side amused me.

Here is another example of the stark contrast between the games.

in the first game, if you go dark side, it is viewed as a major decision. you either reject the lure of your former self, and the lure of bastila, or you succumb to those same temptations.

in the second game, it's more of a passive thing; you can kill each Jedi Master (Zez tries to force you to do so), but still end up not going to the dark side. by contrast, you can convince each of them to meet you back on Dantooine and still end up going DS on Malachor.

in the first game, if you go dark side, your companions react Carth is horrified. Canderous is in different. Mission is scared. Zaalbar is conflicted. HK-47 is happy (sorta). T3-M4 has no opinion. Jolee (and maybe Juhani) both die on the temple

in the second game, you can go hardcore DS but as there is no one "moment of truth" (but instead one of them on each world, although they're more subtle: the choice to fight with Azkul or Khoonda, the choices in the Secret tomb on Korriban, the choice to support Talia or Vaklu on Dxun/Onderon, and the decision to help or demoralize the refugees)

in the first time, the light/side choices are more obvious and overall more rewarding for both. Light Side players will be paid a comparable amount of credits to the dark sider for a given task.

in the second game, the game almost forces dark side choices on you. for example on Onderon. if you want the best Lightsaber Crystal, you need to give sakkere the star port visa. but if you give the visa to your former army buddy, or the mother with the two kids, you do it for free, but a LS reward. its a pickle. you know that crystal will be crucial, but the DS hit taken can be undesirable to some people

Rtas Vadum
08-03-2010, 08:44 PM
in the first game, if you go dark side, your companions react Carth is horrified. Canderous is in different. Mission is scared. Zaalbar is conflicted. HK-47 is happy (sorta). T3-M4 has no opinion. Jolee (and maybe Juhani) both die on the temple

Not a bad thing that they react, but there is still a problem with it. Even though they do have remarks throughout the game, but its then that they act like it is that much of a surprise. Truthfully, it almost makes you think they never look you in the eye, much less directly at your face.

in the second game, the game almost forces dark side choices on you. for example on Onderon. if you want the best Lightsaber Crystal, you need to give sakkere the star port visa. but if you give the visa to your former army buddy, or the mother with the two kids, you do it for free, but a LS reward. its a pickle. you know that crystal will be crucial, but the DS hit taken can be undesirable to some people

Given that the crystal is one usable only for a DS player, it makes sense. I don't know if you still get DS points for chosing the weapon or credits, though its likely you do.

Darth_Calo
08-03-2010, 10:04 PM
true. i dont know how many times Atton is "surprised" (albeit pleasantly) that I ruthlessly cut down the Sullustan in Citadel station after saving him. And, Kreia always lectures you no matter your choice. she despises the light and the dark, being a true Gray Jedi

Darth Weasel
08-19-2010, 04:06 PM
in the first game, if you go dark side, it is viewed as a major decision. you either reject the lure of your former self, and the lure of bastila, or you succumb to those same temptations.

in the second game, it's more of a passive thing; you can kill each Jedi Master (Zez tries to force you to do so), but still end up not going to the dark side. by contrast, you can convince each of them to meet you back on Dantooine and still end up going DS on Malachor.

in the first game, if you go dark side, your companions react Carth is horrified. Canderous is in different. Mission is scared. Zaalbar is conflicted. HK-47 is happy (sorta). T3-M4 has no opinion. Jolee (and maybe Juhani) both die on the temple

in the second game, you can go hardcore DS but as there is no one "moment of truth" (but instead one of them on each world, although they're more subtle: the choice to fight with Azkul or Khoonda, the choices in the Secret tomb on Korriban, the choice to support Talia or Vaklu on Dxun/Onderon, and the decision to help or demoralize the refugees)

in the first time, the light/side choices are more obvious and overall more rewarding for both. Light Side players will be paid a comparable amount of credits to the dark sider for a given task.

in the second game, the game almost forces dark side choices on you. for example on Onderon. if you want the best Lightsaber Crystal, you need to give sakkere the star port visa. but if you give the visa to your former army buddy, or the mother with the two kids, you do it for free, but a LS reward. its a pickle. you know that crystal will be crucial, but the DS hit taken can be undesirable to some people


Personally I think that one of the main reasons that your teamates don't react too strongly to your decisions in TSL is the exiles Force Bonding abilitiy. They really don't have much of a choice in the matter. He has almost total control over them. Being on the lightside gives you less rewards because a Jedi is supposed to do things out of the goodness in his or her heart, not because of personal gain.

And a Darksider might still want to gather the Jedi together instead of killing them. Even if he wanted to kill them, he might resist the temptation long enough to get the answers he needed from the Jedi about why they exiled him. I can't really see a Light Side character killing the jedi though...

Rtas Vadum
08-19-2010, 04:31 PM
And a Darksider might still want to gather the Jedi together instead of killing them. Even if he wanted to kill them, he might resist the temptation long enough to get the answers he needed from the Jedi about why they exiled him. I can't really see a Light Side character killing the jedi though...

Truthfully, even if the Exile might hate the Council, he or she might still want to know the truth. However, even if you do kill each of the Masters, Kreia still tells you exactly what the truth is. And of course, a Lightsided exile wouldn't want to kill the masters, only get the truth from them. But even if they know the truth about the Exile, they don't want to admit that truth. So they default to the same ideology they had when they first put the Exile on trial. It doesn't matter very much to them that you are following their path, just because of how the Exile different, and that is why they still think that forcibly cutting the Exile off from the force is the only way to save it.

Scatter
08-20-2010, 05:38 AM
this thread is an interesting read. personally, i think both games have major strengths and weaknesses over the other. kotor's story, by being more 'simplistic' is a bit tighter throughout the game. tsl's story is far more in-depth, better written and has a greater sense of narrative, but is actually slightly damaged by the restriction of the game mechanics.

and while tsl trumps the story stakes (by some distance imo), and is unarguably a better looking game due to the improvements in the engine between releases, in terms of game play it is far more unbalanced than kotor is (which is saying something as kotor has some balance issues of its own).

the long and the short of it is that i think doing a total conversion mod within TSL would be achievable (with quite a LOT of work), but ultimately pointless - you couldn't do it without a considerable amount of porting of audio assets at the very, very least. and that would make your mod non-grata from day one. you couldn't advertise it here, or host it at kotor files either (given the actual copyright holder for both games is LA and not bioware and obsidian, i've long argued the stance on porting between the two games around here is a bit ridiculous, but that is by-the-by. they're the rules, and we have to live with them).

the graphical limitations of kotor have had me looking in quite some depth at the engines driving both games, and i think i have found a way of radically improving the graphics in both of them. think real lighting, soft shadows, proper robes in kotor etc. the down side is that on testing to date, the existing meshes still look poor, but if i replace them, they look very good. this would mean having to replace (almost?) every mesh in the game. hence why this is the first time i've mentioned this, as it would be a rather substantial undertaking. there are other issues i need to resolve, but i am making progress.

call this a teaser for what might (and i really have to stress the word might) be coming.

Christos K
08-20-2010, 05:17 PM
What would happen if someone were to port KotOR to KotOR's engine and fix all of the issues that were sure to come about?
Would it really be that much of a bad thing? I mean look at what SWGEmu is doing with the SWG game? Thats similar, not the same I know, but similar.
And if it had to do with people not buying KotOR because they could just download it as a "mod" for KotOR 2 it could be made so that the mod requires KotOR to be installed (which it would because having all of Kotors files and putting them in KotOR 2 would be about 2-4 gbs of a download as where having a mod that really just transfers files from one game to another would require both games and therefore now issues with KotOR not being bought anymore.
Anyways I don't know that much about modding for KotOR other than some 2da and UTI editing so I could sound like a fool.

Inyri
08-20-2010, 07:23 PM
Would it really be that much of a bad thing? I mean look at what SWGEmu is doing with the SWG game? Thats similar, not the same I know, but similarIt's not similar at all unless you are planning on recoding the game entirely from scratch and using no existing content (which is what SWGEmu is doing).

Christos K
08-21-2010, 01:22 AM
I was sort of listing two different ways.
One way would be to just rebuild all of KotOR and include it in TSL which would take a long time.
And the other way would be to transfer KotOR's files to TSL.

luc500
08-21-2010, 05:38 AM
the graphical limitations of kotor have had me looking in quite some depth at the engines driving both games, and i think i have found a way of radically improving the graphics in both of them. think real lighting, soft shadows, proper robes in kotor etc. the down side is that on testing to date, the existing meshes still look poor, but if i replace them, they look very good. this would mean having to replace (almost?) every mesh in the game. hence why this is the first time i've mentioned this, as it would be a rather substantial undertaking. there are other issues i need to resolve, but i am making progress.

call this a teaser for what might (and i really have to stress the word might) be coming.

Care to release a screen to feed my hunger for knowledge?:)

Scatter
08-21-2010, 10:31 AM
sorry, but no, not yet. the fact is i have nothing of note to show - especially given how long i've been mucking about with it. suffice it to say that i have proven (to myself at least) that what i want to do is completely possible, but that it is also a substantial task.

given the failure rate of "big picture" mods i am extremely mindful of showing off what would essentially be the square root of bugger all in terms of what needs to be done. once i have a genuine proof of concept - say a complete, working (& stable, i'm having some serious stability issues atm) remodel of the endar spire module - then i'll start putting out some videos, screengrabs, and calls for texturing and meshing help.