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Ping
08-18-2010, 09:48 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/08/18/iraq.combat.convoy/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

After seven years, the war has ended.

mimartin
08-18-2010, 10:02 PM
Obama is just trying to take credit for Bush.

http://www.seeingtheforest.com/STFphotos/Mission-accomplished.jpg

The Iraq War was over on May 1, 2003, I know President Bush told me.

Seriously: As far as I’m concern, it isn’t over until all our military personnel are out of harm’s way. 50,000 does not meet my definition.

Ping
08-18-2010, 10:30 PM
Seriously: As far as Iím concern, it isnít over until all our military personnel are out of harmís way. 50,000 does not meet my definition.

We still have guys in Germany. Does that mean WW2 is still going on?

Darth333
08-18-2010, 10:32 PM
After seven years, the war has ended.
Is this suppose to be a :
a. statement made with the utmost seriousness
b. cynical statement
c. derisive statement

Seriously: As far as I’m concern, it isn’t over until all our military personnel are out of harm’s way. 50,000 does not meet my definition. What about the rest of the mess, including all the civilians who, contrary to the troops, never signed up for this kind of s*** but still got caught in it and will continue to outlive the effects of this aggression for an indefinite period of time? Before this war began, everyone else I spoke to who was familiar with the region predicted this very same messy outcome the moment Bush announced his intentions...This war was not only entered into based on false pretenses (as made to the public) but also, apparently, with total disregard as to what was going on in that region and the interests of the different factions (I can hardly believe US diplomats and informants where so ignorant (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v144/Darth333/autruche3.jpg) as per their statements to the public tough). Was it to get a "foot in the door" for Iran, given the past relations between the three countries; oil, or was it just plain stupidity or something else?

...and, oh how wonderful! Private mercenaries also get to stay...whatever that means...

"Mission accomplished", really*?

That sounds very 2003-ish, doesn't it?


Saddam was a dictator, true but at the same time, the Bush admin was shaking hands with Saudi Arabia (http://riyadh.usembassy.gov/)...democracy, human (women's rights more particularly*) rights, right?

*I recently had to give up my position in leading (and even partaking to) an important deal with a company from this country because I am a woman...

Tysyacha
08-18-2010, 10:53 PM
We (the U.S.) never really wanted to call it a "war", either. We called it "Operation Iraqi Freedom", which is ALMOST total nonsense. Sure, it got Saddam Hussein ousted from power, tried, and executed, but I would not say that most Iraqi civilians feel "free" in the way that most Americans say THEY feel "free". As far as I know, poverty, hunger, and lack of basic necessities are hampering the "freedom" of a LOT of Iraqi people who never even supported Hussein or wanted to get involved in this country-wrecking conflict.

Did it topple Saddam, a brutal dictator? Yes, that is what the war in Iraq DID achieve.
Did it leave infighting, devastation, and chaos in its place? MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

So, one dictator out of power = good. The rest of it = bad. Very bad. Reprehensibly bad!

mimartin
08-18-2010, 11:53 PM
We still have guys in Germany. Does that mean WW2 is still going on?I don't know; are they in harmís way in Germany?

What about the rest of the mess, including all the civilians who, contrary to the troops, never signed up for this kind of s*** but still got caught in it and will continue to outlive the effects of this aggression for an indefinite period of time?Precisely the reason I was against a war in Iraq in the first place, but supported staying after we got into that boondoggle. I want the troops out, but only when the Iraqi government is able to look after its own citizens. I just hope that this is the right time and not a political stunt, like the war was to begin with.
Before this war began, everyone else I spoke to who was familiar with the region predicted this very same messy outcome the moment Bush announced his intentions... The funny thing is George H Bush, Norman Schwarzkopf and Colin Powell knew that in 1991. Strange that George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld thought they were smarter than those three.
This war was not only entered into based on false pretenses (as made to the public) but also, apparently, with total disregard as to what was going on in that region and the interests of the different factions (I can hardly believe US diplomats and informants where so ignorant tough). The diplomats were not that ignorant, just the politicians thought they knew better than the diplomats or even the military.
Was it to get a "foot in the door" for Iran, given the past relations between the three countries; oil, or was it just plain stupidity or something else? Saddam just ticked off the wrong George. Saddam paid, but so did Iraqi civilians and coalition troops. Saddam was a dictator, true but at the same time, the Bush admin was shaking hands with Saudi Arabia (http://riyadh.usembassy.gov/)...democracy, human (women's rights more particularly*) rights, right?right. Never said we were not a little (lot) hypocritical. Next question would be how many of the hijackers were Iraqi? How many were Saudi?

Ping
08-19-2010, 02:20 PM
@mimartin: Point taken.

@Darth 333: It was not meant to be derisive, and was not meant to be cynical, so by that logic, that leaves choice A as the correct one.

ajlbibak
08-19-2010, 02:43 PM
The funny thing is George H Bush, Norman Schwarzkopf and Colin Powell knew that in 1991. Strange that George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld thought they were smarter than those three.

Because of Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz and alike.:D

Sabretooth
08-19-2010, 03:21 PM
Well, it was a great show. Where's the next season going to be?

ChAiNz.2da
08-19-2010, 04:13 PM
Well, it was a great show. Where's the next season going to be?

Pakistan. They're running the pilot as we speak. Though they're debating a North Korea pickup for sweeps week...

mimartin
08-19-2010, 04:35 PM
Though they're debating a North Korea pickup for sweeps week...What? I remember those old black and white reruns when I was a kid.

The U.S. just keeps using the same tired formula; no wonder American Idol is kicking its butt in the ratings.

DarthJacen
08-19-2010, 06:19 PM
I can't wait the for eleven season show about CASH doctors in Iraq.

Tysyacha
08-19-2010, 06:25 PM
*sigh* I seriously think that if we hadn't been screwing around in Iraq, we might have kept a tighter rein on the Taliban to keep them from coming back as strongly as they are right now. We also might have found out more about the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden, if not found him outright. Iraq distracted us from Afghanistan, and now look what's happening...

Miltiades
08-19-2010, 07:03 PM
Oh yeah, saw an American soldier shouting "We won! We won!" on the news today. Which was almost as epic as the "There are no Americans in Baghdad" quote.

Tommycat
08-20-2010, 12:16 AM
Oh yeah, saw an American soldier shouting "We won! We won!" on the news today. Which was almost as epic as the "There are no Americans in Baghdad" quote.
For those soldiers that go home, they did win. It's a win when you go home and your opponent didn't.

Not a great win. But after being in a combat zone surviving is a win in my book.

Liverandbacon
08-21-2010, 02:09 AM
Precisely the reason I was against a war in Iraq in the first place, but supported staying after we got into that boondoggle. I want the troops out, but only when the Iraqi government is able to look after its own citizens. I just hope that this is the right time and not a political stunt, like the war was to begin with.

I felt rather similar. Extending the GWOT to be in two countries at once without a pressing reason was unfortunate. It really set back the effort in A-stan, which I can personally attest to. I also agree that pulling out prematurely is a bad thing, especially for the Iraqi people. Personally, I suspect that the Iraqi government isn't going to be able to prevent the sectarian violence to follow, but who knows, I've been pleasantly surprised before. However, I want either enough US troops in Iraq to have secure presence, or none at all, and I'm not convinced that 50k fits those criteria. US deaths will probably rise.

...and, oh how wonderful! Private mercenaries also get to stay...whatever that means...

This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, but PMCs are quite different from the mercenary companies that used to be so prevalent i.e. Executive Outcomes (though EO had a certain amount of professionalism and was somewhere in between classic mercenary groups and the modern PMC). They are very limited in scope and MO, and are pretty much nothing like how they are portrayed in the vast majority of films, video games, etc. Also, a number of the PMCs in Iraq at this point are actually Iraqi firms that have grown in-country during the war, and employ a large number of Iraqi citizens for various roles. I hope that didn't come off as pedantic, I just like to make it clear that there is a difference. (Disclaimer: Although I've never worked for a PMC, I interacted with a number of their employees in the field, and have some friends who now work as contractors.)

Sabretooth
08-21-2010, 04:08 AM
The Onion handles this wonderfully, as always. (http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-declares-victory-sort-of-depending-on-how-yo,17916/)

Darth333
08-21-2010, 03:06 PM
They are very limited in scope and MO, and are pretty much nothing like how they are portrayed in the vast majority of films, video games, etc. I was not talking about films or video games but of personal experience. Unless reality has changed drastically over the past 15 yrs or so ( I guess I'm getting old), save exception, I hardly believe in this "certain amount of professionalism ", notwithstanding the fact that they are in a legal "gray zone"...

Totenkopf
08-22-2010, 09:25 PM
I was not talking about films or video games but of personal experience. Unless reality has changed drastically over the past 15 yrs or so ( I guess I'm getting old), save exception, I hardly believe in this "certain amount of professionalism ", notwithstanding the fact that they are in a legal "gray zone"...

"Gray zone" as in "above the law" or whatever passes for it in Iraq these days? Or was there something else more specific you had in mind?

Liverandbacon
08-22-2010, 10:23 PM
"Gray zone" as in "above the law" or whatever passes for it in Iraq these days? Or was there something else more specific you had in mind?

Generally, the "gray zone" is due to a certain lack of clarity on what law the employees of a PMC are subject to. The PMC itself isn't in a gray zone if it commits a crime, but individual employees often are (whether they should be tried by Iraqi law, US law, US UCMJ, the law or military equivalent of whatever country the employee is from, the law or military equivalent of whatever country the PMC is officially run from, etc.). This is a problem that really should have been addressed by now, but hasn't, for various reasons. I feel like we're getting a bit off-topic here, so perhaps any continuation of discussion of PMCs should be in messages or a new thread.

OT: Pretty much anyone who's gone on a domestic flight in the US in the past week has encountered far more soldiers than ordinary because of the withdrawal. On my flight a few days ago I had a nice conversation with a SSG from the 82nd Airborne, and I must have seen pretty much an entire platoon's worth of men from the 10th Mountain Division in the airport.