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harIII
11-08-2010, 02:08 PM
Hey, I've been a long term member of KOTOR but new to this particular forum section. To make this right to the point I'm a white, male, gun owning, freedom loving, self educated, Christian, conservative.

I am curious what the community has to say about how to correct the economic crisis that we are all in today not just in America but throughout the world, how should we deal with the Terrorists, and what can we as individuals do in order to reverse the times to go from the Dark Ages back to the Golden Age.

mimartin
11-08-2010, 03:11 PM
I would like to know what time in American history do you consider American’s Golden Age?

harIII
11-08-2010, 03:28 PM
I would say the greatest times would have been the 1940s with the exception of WWII. If Hitler never happened the 1940s would have been the spotlight years in America.

I say this because even though we were still experiencing some of the affects of the Depression that's when jobs as we know them today came about. Before you didn't know if you were going to work 20 hours a week or 60, you can be working at one company for a week and then go to another one the next. The jobs weren't consistent. There was even an extreme case (I know it's true because my grandfather's dad experienced it) of mining companies in West Virginia advertising for great jobs with great benefits but when people got to the town, it was really a "prison camp" with the company using people as a form of slave labor. My great grandfather learned of a way to escape and he fled to Detroit, Michigan.

I have never dug deep into what life was like for the average Joe but with what I do know I feel that the 1940s (with the exception of World War II) were America's Golden Years.

Ping
11-08-2010, 05:07 PM
I personally think America should emulate Europe and save money, and do more things that work in the long-run rather than the short.

harIII
11-08-2010, 05:34 PM
I agree with you to a certain extent because you are right about the Long Term plan. But it is critical to have both a short term and long term plan in order to stay afloat.

But the problem with doing what Europe is doing is that we already are. For the most part, and I can't explain why, but usually things that happen in Europe will happen in America after a while. Right now Europe is on the brink of collapse because of how all of our economies are interconnected due to Professor Quigley's method of solving Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD). If one country starts to sag down, it drags the rest of the world with it and visa versa. Greece I believe was the one to start this domino affect. They are experiencing a rebellion and tough financial problems and because of the economic connections countries like Spain, Portugal, Italy, and others are about to collapse.

mimartin
11-08-2010, 05:38 PM
I would say the greatest times would have been the 1940s with the exception of WWII. If Hitler never happened the 1940s would have been the spotlight years in America.
Please tell me you are joking. Please

Without World War II America the 1940’s would have been similar to the 1930’s. Even before America entered the War, American was finally put back to work supplying Russia and Great Britain in the war against Germany. World War II and the allies’ victory are exactly what propelled American to a world power. The returning soldiers and things like the GI Bill are what lead to the baby boom and the ability to pursue further education. World War II itself lead to getting women out of the kitchen and into the work place.

If you want to say 1945 to 1950 (Korean War), then I give you that. However, I would like to point out it was not the Golden Age for everyone. Just look at women’s rights during that time and how African Americans’ were treated. Look at segregation and the Tuskegee syphilis experiment for just two examples.

People look back at the past with nostalgia for a simpler better time. The problem is the memory forgets everything that was wrong with society back then.

Qui-Gon Glenn
11-08-2010, 06:03 PM
Please tell me you are joking. Please

Without World War II America the 1940’s would have been similar to the 1930’s. Even before America entered the War, American was finally put back to work supplying Russia and Great Britain in the war against Germany. World War II and the allies’ victory are exactly what propelled American to a world power. The returning soldiers and things like the GI Bill are what lead to the baby boom and the ability to pursue further education. World War II itself lead to getting women out of the kitchen and into the work place.

If you want to say 1945 to 1950 (Korean War), then I give you that. However, I would like to point out it was not the Golden Age for everyone. Just look at women’s rights during that time and how African Americans’ were treated. Look at segregation and the Tuskegee syphilis experiment for just two examples.

People look back at the past with nostalgia for a simpler better time. The problem is the memory forgets everything that was wrong with society back then.
Quoted for every well spent word.

The Golden Age was when there was no country yet, and it was all a grand ideal. As soon as hierarchy and rule came into play, the only Golden Age was for the Golden rulers.... Reminds me of my favorite line from Dazed and Confused... something about old rich white men not wanting to pay their taxes.

Common sense is lacking, of course. It is not really all that common, after all. I argue, much like the Uncle in the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, that it is logic that we should be teaching. Logic can save you where common sense does not exist! Plus, it can actually be taught and learned!!

Critical thinking....

harIII
11-08-2010, 06:07 PM
I can settle from 1945 - 50 and about the idea of human rights for various groups. If you want to look at it that way there is always somebody being attacked, a group of people here or a religious sect there. From about 1789 - 1864 the Blacks were being abused for a Slave Labor Force which I agree was a very bad decision for any establishment, the enslavement of one group for the profits of another. But then it was the average worker from 1865 - about mid 1940s, then it was the Communist from the 1940s - 50s, and I really can't go on from there because of all the groups being attacked. But today it seems that Whites, Christians, and Jews are being attacked.

Every group has their struggles and it's up the them to fix them. Martin Luther King Jr was a great man because he figured out that the key to making a difference is to do it peacefully and not play into the hands of the establishment. Government regulation (for once I agree with the Feds) helped the average worker have a more secure job. The Communists just ran out of the states or hid underground.

I can agree with you on some things but overall I think that 1940s were the high times of American History.

Quoted for every well spent word.

...old rich white men not wanting to pay their taxes.

Critical thinking....

Sure is funny how every Senator wants to increase taxes on the working class but every time you hear about tax fraud it's a Senator trying to hold onto his/her tax money.

Critical thinking - Touche. That's truly the only way to figure things out but you have to admit that critical thinking eventually draws you back to common sense...

Darth InSidious
11-08-2010, 06:21 PM
Repeat after me:

There was no "golden age". The whiggish interpretation is a fallacy.

harIII
11-08-2010, 06:40 PM
If you say there was no golden age then what would you deem as the best years in American history?

Darth InSidious
11-08-2010, 06:59 PM
If you say there was no golden age then what would you deem as the best years in American history?

The question is meaningless, since there are no 'best years'.

Besides, your country has no history. :p

harIII
11-08-2010, 07:09 PM
How can you say America has had no history. We have had the longest lasting Constitution in World History (221 Years), we defeated the world super power when we really shouldn't have (American Revolution), and we along with help from England, Russia, and others put an end to Nazi tyranny (WWII). How can you possibly say America doesn't have history?

Qui-Gon Glenn
11-08-2010, 07:20 PM
How can you say America has had no history. We have had the longest lasting Constitution in World History (221 Years), we defeated the world super power when we really shouldn't have (American Revolution), and we along with help from England, Russia, and others put an end to Nazi tyranny (WWII). How can you possibly say America doesn't have history?He can say that quite easily, he is a Brit! Much more history over there, I must admit. Or he's just bitter about losing the colonies (wonk wonk). <riiiiiiight>

Really though, I was interested in a non 'Merkins view of what would constitute the "Golden Age" of US history.... I think honestly most would say there was none. Too brief, highs and lows all over the map. America is great for what it is, not what it was. For now, at least...

There are a million Golden Moments in US History, more than our time on the map would normally accumulate, so that is something. But then, there is Andrew Jackson, or George W, or Teddy the Lion Killer.

Lord of Hunger
11-08-2010, 08:46 PM
I am curious what the community has to say about how to correct the economic crisis that we are all in today not just in America but throughout the world,
Well if you want a long term solution with a really painful short term cost, tax imports from China. It'd bring some manufacturing back to the United States and stabilize the economy here.
how should we deal with the Terrorists,
M4A1, Barret .50 Cal, M9, and Predator Strike.[/MODERN WARFARE 2]

Oh, you meant in real life. Actually, predator strike works surprisingly well but has foreign relations issues. It depends on if we can get Pakistan to be okay with us sending missiles into their northwestern mountain territories.
and what can we as individuals do in order to reverse the times to go from the Dark Ages back to the Golden Age.
Like the others here, I'd say "Golden Age" is subjective depending on historical view. I'd actually agree with Qui-Gon in that we've had lots of "Golden Moments". The key, I think, would be for Americans to realize this because quite frankly the negativity in the Press and the political process has lowered America's view of itself (I get this feedback from a wide variety of people in online communities, where I live, and where I used to live).

harIII
11-08-2010, 10:46 PM
There are a million Golden Moments in US History, more than our time on the map would normally accumulate, so that is something.

Very well put Qui-Gon Glenn, I'd have to agree with you but I still think that we did experience a Golden Age from an American's viewpoint for about 10 years.


M4A1, Barret .50 Cal, M9, and Predator Strike.[/MODERN WARFARE 2]

Oh, you meant in real life. Actually, predator strike works surprisingly well but has foreign relations issues. It depends on if we can get Pakistan to be okay with us sending missiles into their northwestern mountain territories.


Throwing missiles, bombs, and guns at the terrorists is a good start but you also have to remember Al Quada (not sure on spelling) is one group among several that apparently belong to a larger order of Islamic Radicals called the Muslim Brotherhood. They are also infiltrators and use that to their advantage. They know how to hide, run, and attack. Those tactics I think can only take us so far until we can actually get the normal Muslims (those that are truly peace loving, friendly, run of the mill type) to turn against their radical rulers. The problem I think is that they haven't had any great theologians to come out and take a stand like great Christians such as Bonhoeffer and Martin Luther. Christianity was once like the Islamic faith today, back in the Medieval years the Church was radical itself.

Well if you want a long term solution with a really painful short term cost, tax imports from China. It'd bring some manufacturing back to the United States and stabilize the economy here.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this, how does it work?

mimartin
11-08-2010, 10:56 PM
Very well put Qui-Gon Glenn, I'd have to agree with you but I still think that we did experience a Golden Age from an American's viewpoint for about 10 years. Who are these Americans you speak of? I would not consider anytime of war a Golden Age, so if you are speaking 45 to 50 then I already pointed out that was not a Golden Age by far for many Americans.


BTW. I am 2 out of the 3 things you wrote about and I don't feel under attack.

harIII
11-08-2010, 11:03 PM
I am 2 out of the 3 things you wrote about and I don't feel under attack.

Well as I said earlier I am a white, male, gun owning, freedom loving, self educated, Christian, conservative and I feel like I'm being attacked.

Gun Owning - Obama thinks that people who are afraid, keep guns close by, and God fearing are idiots and basically a bunch of chaotic people panicking.

Freedom Loving - I forgot which Senator said it but he said that about 95% of bills passed by Congress are unconstitutional.

Christian - Every religion in the world can go to a public school and do whatever they want such as Muslims asking for separate facilities because the ones they have are unclean while Christians are expected to fade away into the wood work.

Conservative - Every media organization with the exception of Fox News has called me a racist, fear mongering, pathetic, violent, destructive, and a danger to society.

I don't know about you but I think I'm being attacked.

mimartin
11-08-2010, 11:34 PM
Gun Owning - Obama thinks that people who are afraid, keep guns close by, and God fearing are idiots and basically a bunch of chaotic people panicking. Show me where he as stated any such thing.

Freedom Loving - I forgot which Senator said it but he said that about 95% of bills passed by Congress are unconstitutional. Show me which Senator and I'll show you a idiot Senator.

Christian - Every religion in the world can go to a public school and do whatever they want such as Muslims asking for separate facilities because the ones they have are unclean while Christians are expected to fade away into the wood work. No, they can not, at least not in America. If they want any one religion to be taught in an American school, then they can go to a private American school.

Conservative - Every media organization with the exception of Fox News has called me a racist, fear mongering, pathetic, violent, destructive, and a danger to society. Links or it did not happen.

I don't know about you but I think I'm being attacked.The only place I feel attacked is when people in the media or the public eye (especially FalseNews) make up stuff act as if it is fact.

I’m a white, straight, gun owning, male, freedom loving, financial conservative, social issues liberal who believes in the Constitution even when it goes against my personal believes; Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion and freedom of speech even when someone burns the flag and I’m not under attack except when I listen to the talking heads from either side without using some common sense or rational thoughts to filter out their idiocies. Like saying they know what someone is thinking.

Sabretooth
11-09-2010, 12:35 AM
how should we deal with the Terrorists

Invade Pakistan - you know, the terrorist-sponsoring state that actually has WMDs.

Pavlos
11-09-2010, 12:35 AM
How can you say America has had no history. We have had the longest lasting Constitution in World History (221 Years), we defeated the world super power when we really shouldn't have (American Revolution), and we along with help from England, Russia, and others put an end to Nazi tyranny (WWII). How can you possibly say America doesn't have history?
I beg to differ, sir! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689)

Or, if 1689's not your fancy: 1215 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta) :xp:

Lord of Hunger
11-09-2010, 12:59 AM
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this, how does it work?
Many jobs that go oversees end up there because it is cheaper for American corporations to employ foreign workers. This is because Americans enjoy a higher standard of living and thus they request higher wages than foreign workers. It makes it difficult for Americans to be competitive in the manufacturing industry. By taxing imports the government can draw income from the difference between imported goods and locally-produced goods. However, this would drive up prices for American consumers. The government could compensate by eliminating or reducing income taxes on Americans so they would have more money to spend. In time, corporations might end up deciding to bring those jobs back to the United States.

At least, that's the idea.
I beg to differ, sir!

Or, if 1689's not your fancy: 1215
You cited a Bill of Rights, which is different from a Constitution. They are both technically legislature, but a Bill is an Act where as a Constitution is a Charter.

SW01
11-09-2010, 05:11 AM
You cited a Bill of Rights, which is different from a Constitution. They are both technically legislature, but a Bill is an Act where as a Constitution is a Charter.

Not in our legal system it isn't.

An Act of Parliament is supreme law. It cannot be overruled, save by another Act. No court can or could amend it. Our old Law Lords at one point stated very clearly (Thoburn case, iirc) that Britain has a series of 'constitutional Acts' which act as a 'Constitution', being Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights (as Pavlos linked), and newer legislation like the European Communities Act, the Human Rights Act, and the Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Government of Wales Acts of 1998 (and all the subsequent amendments to the NI Act...)

Therefore, Pavlos wins. :p

Astor
11-09-2010, 05:22 AM
I don't know about you but I think I'm being attacked.

I hate to go into a downward spiral of 'News outlets are evil', but, noticing your avatar, is it not at all possible that this sense of being attacked is exacerbated by talking heads (From what I've seen, on both sides, I might add) that trade on fear and misinformation?

Arcesious
11-09-2010, 09:01 AM
There is one fallacy that always irks me whenever I hear it, though I know not what to call it.

Essentially it goes like this:

Person A says: "It was much better back in , everything's getting worse and worse, people had more common sense in the past."

And that's the fallacy.

Common sense never was more common in the past. Tribal warfare, feudalism, the dark ages, the crusades, racism, war over pointless things, civil rights... There were always criminals in the past too. I've heard all to many times how back in the past, you could leave your doors unlocked safely, unlike today. Not true. Crime was just as bad back in the 60's and other years as it is now, albeit in different ways.

There are no golden years, but it's never been [i]that bad.

You'll find that if you take every single event in history into account, everything is a gray area, and there are almost no black and white/good vs evil contrasts.

Politicians today have a huge weight on their shoulders. Take anyone who fancies themselves an economy expert, and put them in the place of an influential politician, and I'd like to see them do a job any better than said replaced politician, whilst having to deal with lobbying, politics, and other annoying factors that would get in the way of the best possible solution to the given issues. As Achilles once told me, a lot of economic plans look good on paper, but don't really work too well in application.

But what do I know, I'm a super-idealistic optimist.

harIII
11-09-2010, 09:08 AM
I would run with all of your arguments but that would take far to long to do so I'll just do one and I feel that this one is the most important because it brings more of what I think out into open.

I hate to go into a downward spiral of 'News outlets are evil', but, noticing your avatar, is it not at all possible that this sense of being attacked is exacerbated by talking heads (From what I've seen, on both sides, I might add) that trade on fear and misinformation?

The avatar is kind of an inside joke between me and another forum member but either way Glenn Beck is my boy, I want to have it babies!!! I will admit media organizations on both sides get it wrong but to me I feel that Fox News is the one to have a better track record as far as being right. I can't verify this with others on Fox News but I know for a fact that if Glenn Beck said something false about a particular topic he'll come out and take back what he said once he realizes it's wrong while the New York Times will bury the subject in the back pages if they even acknowledge that they are wrong.

Arcesious
11-09-2010, 09:15 AM
I feel that Fox News is the one to have a better track record as far as being right. I can't verify this with others on Fox News but I know for a fact that if Glenn Beck said something false about a particular topic he'll come out and take back what he said once he realizes it's wrong while the New York Times will bury the subject in the back pages if they even acknowledge that they are wrong.

Oh boy...

Well, you can probably expect some pretty strident counter-debating on this from others.

Jae Onasi
11-09-2010, 10:55 AM
What do Fox, CNN, and MSNBC (along with the other major news outlets) care about? Gaining viewership in order to sell more ad revenue to make more money for their companies and their shareholders. Unfortunately for those of us who like 'hard news' that is unfiltered and "un-spun", we're stuck with a lot of pseudo-news from both ends of the political spectrum as a result of this drive to increase ratings. People like drama, including in their news. The more drama and controversy there is (to a point), the more viewership/ratings go up, which makes the media outlets happy since they then can make more money. It's all about the dollar and what they can do to earn it, and providing hard unfiltered news doesn't cut the mustard anymore, unfortunately, for many viewers.

I watch or read both Fox and CNN. After reading or hearing the wording of both news outlets, I'm able to sift out the spin-crap and get enough of the facts to make up my own mind instead of having either group try to make it up for me.

Jedi/Sith
11-09-2010, 11:38 AM
To solve one question the golden age or best years would be the 1920's. The problem with saying that it is the U.S. golden age is that you do not know the future of what will happen to the U.S. later on. That is the problem for all countries that still around today because they could end up having there actual golden age later on. There were no wars during this time unemployment and inflation were extremely low. The country was doing really good. This was the early period. If you say that there was a depression right at the end well in U.S. history there has always been downturn in the economy it use to come about every 10 or so years. Today it would be about every 6-10 years. The goal is to get out of the reccession not to prevent it from happening. You can predict about when a recession will occur within a economy. Not sure how it is for other countries though.

To solve the question about what we should decide what solutions there are for the world. Well for each country there are different solutions. Each economy is different in that they all have to be solved a different way. For example the United States could print money though they devalue the dollar but this solution could be done. This would be different from lets say Greece where they cannot print any money. There are many solutions out there that would work but some would not work out while others would work well but there is always a drawback. Just about all the solutions have a drawback to them. Some of them have drawbacks now or later while the solution is being used. Those decision that seem like they have no drawback could later on have a drawback later on. For example of this Social Security at first it seem like there was nothing wrong with until LBJ came to office and took money out of social security for Vietnam. Now social security is in huge trouble. A drawback could be from something that occurs later on within the country like this. Or it could be from a change in some other thing which will cripple any country. Unless you have a time machine and are the doctor I don't think anyone completely knows what a decision does to a country. This would only effect a long term decision not a short term one.

To solve the question about the New Media well all the news media have bias opinions no matter what you watch. They play to a crowd of people who come from the left or right. They do this to get there ratings up. I myself watch mainly Fox and CNN. I tend to conservative on about all issues. I am borderline Libertarian which are people who want no government control. I don't think that is true but I do think that a lot of government control should be eliminated.

harIII
11-09-2010, 12:45 PM
To solve one question the golden age or best years would be the 1920's. The problem with saying that it is the U.S. golden age is that you do not know the future of what will happen to the U.S. later on. That is the problem for all countries that still around today because they could end up having there actual golden age later on. There were no wars during this time unemployment and inflation were extremely low. The country was doing really good. This was the early period. If you say that there was a depression right at the end well in U.S. history there has always been downturn in the economy it use to come about every 10 or so years. Today it would be about every 6-10 years. The goal is to get out of the reccession not to prevent it from happening. You can predict about when a recession will occur within a economy. Not sure how it is for other countries though.

You're exactly right. For some reason politicians believe that if they enact a bill what just happened can never happen again. But the laws of economics are like the laws of nature, they cannot be altered, added, or removed; they are permanent. What happens to an an economy is that it rises, falls, and rises again. There's no way to prevent it from happening but what we can do is decide on how devastating it will be. That's when Capitalist and Communist split. We have the Depression of 1920 which lasted for about 3 years while the Great Depression lasted much longer because in my opinion of the policies that were used. 1920 had Capitalist while the Great Depression had, let's use a nice term, Progressives.

mimartin
11-09-2010, 01:36 PM
Not going to answer my questions? Very well.

1920’s as the Golden Age in American history.

Ku Klux Klan gained prominence and acceptance.

Prohibition leads to increase in organized crime.

Economically it was most likely American’s Golden Age. Too bad it was ruined by a little thing called the Great Depression.

Find it extremely funny that both ages came up for a Golden Age in America are following a World War. Perhaps we can bring another “Golden Age” to America by just starting a third World War.

Astor
11-09-2010, 01:39 PM
I really don't know much of US history beyond the Revolution, War of 1812 and Civil War, and as an outsider I wouldn't begin to suggest a period that could be defined as the USA's 'Golden Age' but...

Didn't the 1920s see the rise of the Mafia and other Organised Crime groups, in addition to widespread racketeering, corruption, as well as black market and criminal activity as a result of the Volstead Act?

harIII
11-09-2010, 01:57 PM
Uhhh, there's a reason why I said the 1940s. The 1940s was the start of what we have today as far as how our society works, but people have taken our mechanics and turned it against us and that's why we are where we are today.

Darth InSidious
11-09-2010, 05:39 PM
Southern trees bear strange fruit,
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root,
Black body swinging in the Southern breeze,
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees.
Pastoral scene of the gallant South,
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth,
Scent of magnolia sweet and fresh,
Then the sudden smell of burning flesh!
Here is fruit for the crows to pluck,
For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck,
For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop,
Here is a strange and bitter crop.

Darth333
11-09-2010, 09:42 PM
""Making Common Sense Common Again"

Sorry for being this late but having read your first post and the thread thereafter, I'm still trying to figure out what you mean by "common sense" (which is, IMHO, something we all think we have while the "other" doesn't).

(blah blah blah Dark Ages back to the Golden Age. I am still trying to understand this statement...what golden age?


Uhhh, there's a reason why I said the 1940s. The 1940s was the start of what we have today as far as how our society works, but people have taken our mechanics and turned it against us and that's why we are where we are today. What is this answer supposed to mean? Maybe answering some preliminary questions would help? 1. Where are we today? 2. The 1940's? I am not from the US and can't quite figure where this one comes either... So please, enlighten me...I thought that civilization has started way before the 1940s and that regions of the world have evolved in very different ways and under many different cultures... 3. also, which "mechanics"? 4. Which Mechanics were turned against "us"? 5. How so? 6. Who is "we"?

But the problem with doing what Europe is doing is that we already are. For the most part, and I can't explain why, but usually things that happen in Europe will happen in America after a while. Maybe my English is not good but I am still trying to figure what you meant here :confused:

If one country starts to sag down, it drags the rest of the world with it and visa versa. Greece I believe was the one to start this domino affect. They are experiencing a rebellion and tough financial problems and because of the economic connections countries like Spain, Portugal, Italy, and others are about to collapse. I admire your "saviness". But which "domino affect (sic)" are you talking about?...that the Grecian situation dragged the US into this financial crisis? How so? As we say in French, (without denying the Grecian mess), " c'est le monde a l'envers"... BTW, I found this book to be quite interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar%27s_Poker

I have never dug deep into what life was like for the average Joe but with what I do know I feel that the 1940s (with the exception of World War II) were America's Golden Years. How about doing some research instead of guessing or "feeling"?


would run with all of your arguments but that would take far to long to do so How about running with yours first?...then, if I find time, I could perhaps do so with yours ...

M4A1, Barret .50 Cal, M9, and Predator Strike.[/MODERN WARFARE 2]

Oh, you meant in real life. Actually, predator strike works surprisingly well but has foreign relations issues. Ever wondered why there are "foreign relations issues" ? Btw, what of the civilian populations?

But today it seems that Whites, Christians, and Jews are being attacked. Many others could say so as well, I believe...which takes us, in part, back to the initial question: what "common sense" are you talking about?

Lord of Hunger
11-09-2010, 10:12 PM
Ever wondered why there are "foreign relations issues" ?
No I haven't because I know exactly why: The world is not a perfect place.
Btw, what of the civilian populations?
Are we talking missile strikes into terrorist cells in civilian areas or missile strikes into militant bunkers? Either way, it's pretty precise but there's always the chance of killing innocents in the process. Such is war, and that's the sort of decisions the Military makes. Never suggested it was easy.

Darth Avlectus
11-09-2010, 11:22 PM
Ever wondered why there are "foreign relations issues" ? Btw, what of the civilian populations?

Curious. I'm trying to figure out just why you respond like this to...pretty much anything military or arms related, even if it is such obvious sarcasm. Touchy subject for you? With all due respect of course.

If it's deeply personal, you can PM me on it if you wish.

Qui-Gon Glenn
11-10-2010, 12:53 AM
Ever wondered why there are "foreign relations issues" ? Btw, what of the civilian populations?
Curious. I'm trying to figure out just why you respond like this to...pretty much anything military or arms related, even if it is such obvious sarcasm. Touchy subject for you? With all due respect of course.

If it's deeply personal, you can PM me on it if you wish.
I would not answer for the Dark Lady, but for myself, I am personally angered by anything arms or military related, because with all due respect to the soldiers that survive it, war is still a little too distant and impersonal for me in the modern age. [I am not denying that it is very personal to take home less than your whole body, or to have psychologically had to deal with what your job was and what you saw doing it]. So talk of fancier arms, fancier defenses, is all chest thumping and Country Club old boy-ism in my eyes. I feel strongly that we should have to go to war in loinclothes, mano a mano, like god intended. We would have far less bloodshed, and better TV. Of course, I like fistfights. More honest. The combatants have an actual personal interest in what's at stake.

I find talk of military superiority and arms races of the same nature as the American Condition of "beating the Jones'". A Sisyphusian endeavor if ever there was.

That is my common sense on this particular subject. That is the thread concept right? Make Common Sense Common Again? Well, I call that common sense. If anyone agrees with me 100% then it actually is common.

Common Sense in the political buzzword FOX PHRASE (tm) of the Week is just another talking point to nowhere.

mimartin
11-10-2010, 12:51 PM
Common Sense in the political buzzword FOX PHRASE (tm) of the Week is just another talking point to nowhere.
Agree with you 100%

Common sense was also a pamphlet written by Thomas Paine. It advocated America’s independence from British rule.

I guess the right wingers are advocating dismissing Obama Presidency. Funny when the left did it to Bush the right considered them un-American. Dixie Chicks anyone?

Even funnier is they also said Clinton was the worse thing ever for this country. I however, now look back at the Clinton years as the “golden age” of my lifetime. :xp:

Ctrl Alt Del
11-10-2010, 02:09 PM
Can I post a certain Deadpool demotivational?

ForeverNight
11-10-2010, 05:11 PM
/me looks at title

/me looks at thread

Mmmk then.

I guess the right wingers are advocating dismissing Obama Presidency. Funny when the left did it to Bush the right considered them un-American. Dixie Chicks anyone?

Speaking as a right ringer, he's the President for better or worse. I'll support the office, but disagree with some of his politics. People who claim he's not the president/is un-American/whatever are people that shouldn't be taken seriously.

Working Class Hero
11-10-2010, 05:30 PM
No I haven't because I know exactly why: The world is not a perfect place.
Are we talking missile strikes into terrorist cells in civilian areas or missile strikes into militant bunkers? Either way, it's pretty precise but there's always the chance of killing innocents in the process. Such is war, and that's the sort of decisions the Military makes. Never suggested it was easy. Exactly, we should never try to fix or prevent things because it's impossible to be perfect.

Uhhh, there's a reason why I said the 1940s. The 1940s was the start of what we have today as far as how our society works, but people have taken our mechanics and turned it against us and that's why we are where we are today. You do realize the 40s were the burgeoning of the progressive menace you so despise?

You're exactly right. For some reason politicians believe that if they enact a bill what just happened can never happen again. But the laws of economics are like the laws of nature, they cannot be altered, added, or removed; they are permanent. There are no unalterable laws of economics. We started as hunters and gatherer and now we have a global economy.

harIII
11-10-2010, 05:47 PM
You do realize the 40s were the burgeoning of the progressive menace you so despise?

We have to start viewing political parties not on the left and right but up and down and look at forms of government as left and right. The up and down are what we in America call the Republicans and Democrats while the left and right is Big Government and Small Government (respectfully). The farther left you go the more Communist a country is, the farther right the country turns to Anarchy. There is a middle ground where enough political intervention that keeps the people in order yet allows them to enjoy their freedom.

The political parties really don't matter in the short term but over time if one particular part dominates, they can push the country into a particular direction whether it be communism or anarchy. For the most part they are suppose to bounce back and forth.

If the government didn't allow the people to have particular rights in their companies, the companies would just go on and use us more as slave labor rather than paid employees. Like I said there is a middle ground between what is right and what is wrong.

There are no unalterable laws of economics. We started as hunters and gatherer and now we have a global economy.

You're right, we did make the laws, but these laws were slowly generated over time as economies because more and more interconnected and more dependent on each other. I should correct myself that these laws can be changed but that is not something that we can see within our lifetime, it takes many, many years for something like this to happen. What I am saying is that you just can't wake up and expect that printing more money won't create inflation or not paying a debt will not make it lower.

Lord of Hunger
11-11-2010, 01:16 AM
Exactly, we should never try to fix or prevent things because it's impossible to be perfect.
I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I was not implying we shouldn't try to reduce war or be more humane about it, but rather stating the truth of the matter:

-War is ugly.
-War will, in some way, always be ugly.
-People die in war (at least, actual wars as opposed to a single individual "declaring war" on another).
-To win a war, you must sacrifice some sort of resource to achieve a goal. -According to 1984 by George Orwell, the most directly effective yet least benevolent method is for the goal to be the sacrifice of that resource.
-Resources can range from human beings to the materials that are used to create the weaponry used in war to a strategic position.
-A war without bloodshed or weaponry is not actually war. More likely, it's either economics, politics, or a video game.
-War...war never changes. :D

Liverandbacon
11-11-2010, 11:42 AM
People have never acted with common sense, and there was no Golden Age. Whether people will eventually develop common sense, and move in to a Golden Age is debatable. Personally, I doubt such a thing will happen unless certain somewhat technological advancements are made (and honestly, as with all tech, who knows what new problems they'll create).

As for the threat of terrorism, I have two answers.

If we are referring to Islamic extremist terrorism, the only way that it will truly be cut down to a near negligible level (no form of extremism is ever truly eliminated), is if the moderate Muslim population rejects the extremists in a more active fashion. Right now, many moderate Muslims talk about how they disapprove, acting passively. Leaders within the community need to take a more active stance in separating the extremists from the general community.

If we are referring to terrorism in general, it will never be eliminated. People will always have differing views, and there will always be those who try to force their views upon others with violence and intimidation. The most we can do is try to find out about attacks before they occur, and prevent them.

Exactly, we should never try to fix or prevent things because it's impossible to be perfect.

Trust me, we do try to minimalize civilian casualties, often to a degree that puts us at more risk. It just hurts sometimes that people get so angry whenever a tragic accident occurs, seeing it as evidence of our 'evil', when we could be saving hundreds of millions of dollars by using slightly less fancy weapons that would achieve our objectives just as well, albeit with more civilian casualties. We are investing huge amounts of money and personal risk to avoid this sort of thing. There's a reason that the number of civilian deaths in the entire Iraq war (including civilian-on-civilian crime, which is quite common, and those killed by our enemies) is only about double the amount of civilians killed in a single 8-day bombing mission in WWII.

Improvements are being made, it's just irritating and a bit upsetting that so many people think we can just press a magic "make it better" button and eliminate the problem.

Ping
11-12-2010, 04:07 PM
Improvements are being made, it's just irritating and a bit upsetting that so many people think we can just press a magic "make it better" button and eliminate the problem.

I'm finally glad that someone came out and said this fact that's all too true.

Q
11-13-2010, 03:24 AM
We need to dump both parties. NOW.

Sabretooth
11-13-2010, 05:47 AM
Why don't you guys make this guy the President?

jUMZzzcXVIE

Doomie
11-13-2010, 10:59 AM
(Communism and anarchy)

I'd just like to point out that the opposite of anarchy isn't communism, it would probably be totalitarianism, and those aren't the same thing. In fact, it is my understanding that the ultimate goal of communism is something not too dissimilar to anarchy, with the elimination of the ruling class and the communal ownership of resources and all that.

Qui-Gon Glenn
11-13-2010, 05:31 PM
I'd just like to point out that the opposite of anarchy isn't communism, it would probably be totalitarianism, and those aren't the same thing. In fact, it is my understanding that the ultimate goal of communism is something not too dissimilar to anarchy, with the elimination of the ruling class and the communal ownership of resources and all that.Interesting catch, although I am not 100% sure about your analogy, Doomie.

Big Gov -> Small Gov = Communism -> Anarchy is harIII's argument.
= Totalitarianism -> Anarchy is yours.

In anarchy, nobody rules nuthin'. Yeehaw, wild wild west style.
In a totalitarian regime, Kim Jong Il sings about loneliness. So rohnree.
In a commune, everyone rules.

I personally would argue that real communism and anarchy are close to the same thing. Governments that have been labeled as communist in the past have been far from what the concept was supposed to be. The problem with communism is that people are inherently s-bags and cannot help themselves to more pie than they are due. So abuse of power happens..... just like in our capitalistic government! S-bags know no foreign land, they are everywhere, they are hard to stop, and must be dealt with harshly at any opportunity presented to you. If someone is dirty they should go down. That is another piece of my common sense.

If your perception of the world depends on a nationalistic belief that your flavor of political representation is the best and should be the model, you have never used your mind other than as a recording device.

Ping
11-14-2010, 03:45 PM
If your perception of the world depends on a nationalistic belief that your flavor of political representation is the best and should be the model, you have never used your mind other than as a recording device.

This should be a famous quote right here. :xp:

Drunkside
11-23-2010, 09:05 AM
I'd just like to point out that the opposite of anarchy isn't communism, it would probably be totalitarianism, and those aren't the same thing. In fact, it is my understanding that the ultimate goal of communism is something not too dissimilar to anarchy, with the elimination of the ruling class and the communal ownership of resources and all that.

Communism is very far from anarchy, because the whole ideology is very naive and believes that humans are smart by nature, and that by removing the government people will be happy to work in their new, completely equal country. And live according to it´s laws. A pretty good theory actually, but its only that, it can never work because humans are despicable creatures only driven by goals such as advancing themselves. As Qui-Gon Glenn said, past "communist" countries have been very far from actual communism, and rather represented pure selfishness by being totalitarian countries. Anarchism is more about every man making his own rules.