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11-12-2010, 08:10 PM
In a follow up to last week’s reveal on one of the warzones we’ll be playing in, Bioware has formally unveiled the way crafting will work in TOR! Most of this information isn’t necessarily new (it was discussed heavily over the past week in nearly every gaming publication) but it’s nice to have pretty pictures [...]

Read the full story at starwarsmmo.net... (http://www.starwarsmmo.net/news/star-warcraft/)

jrrtoken
11-15-2010, 06:11 PM
Sounds like a heap of un-fun micromanagement. It's even funnier when the developer tries to sell crafting as slightly more tolerable than other iterations, with something like "With TOR, you can outsource NPCs to do all of boring s*** for you". He implicitly admits that the zeitgeist's crafting paradigm is boring trash, but that BioWare has made it slightly less tedious by having the computer do all of the work for you.

What a rubbish design. BioWare has all the freedom and resources to develop a new crafting mechanic that is both engaging and intuitive without being a cumbersome, tediously-micromanaged chore. Instead, they seem to use the same paradigm found in any other MMO, but with the benefit(?) of assigning the computer to do all the work for you. The PC does not have to manually craft, and therefore does not even directly interact with the mechanic; there wouldn't be much difference if crafting as a whole was excluded from the game compared to outsourcing the "work" to NPCs, at least from the player's perspective.

redrob41
11-15-2010, 07:28 PM
sounds to me like the player will be managing their employees like a job supervisor, rather than micro-managing which ingedients are put together to make whichever items. Either way, it sounds too much like actual work, and not like a fun game :fist:. Then again, some people dig the simulation and role-playing :giveup:.

I wonder if I'll be able to re-name my crew members:
"hey 'Gofer', get me some blue milk"

Ctrl Alt Del
11-15-2010, 08:33 PM
And now we know what wonderful things will we be able to do with our henchmen.

JediAthos
11-16-2010, 12:07 PM
Sounds like a heap of un-fun micromanagement. It's even funnier when the developer tries to sell crafting as slightly more tolerable than other iterations, with something like "With TOR, you can outsource NPCs to do all of boring s*** for you". He implicitly admits that the zeitgeist's crafting paradigm is boring trash, but that BioWare has made it slightly less tedious by having the computer do all of the work for you.

What a rubbish design. BioWare has all the freedom and resources to develop a new crafting mechanic that is both engaging and intuitive without being a cumbersome, tediously-micromanaged chore. Instead, they seem to use the same paradigm found in any other MMO, but with the benefit(?) of assigning the computer to do all the work for you. The PC does not have to manually craft, and therefore does not even directly interact with the mechanic; there wouldn't be much difference if crafting as a whole was excluded from the game compared to outsourcing the "work" to NPCs, at least from the player's perspective.

I'm just curious...if they had stuck with the crafting mechanic of the player crafting everything themselves would you be blasting them for that as well?

What exactly would you have them do? There are really only so many ways you can approach making items in an MMO. At least this way you're standing in the middle of a town or on your ship for hours making items...which is something I personally can't stand.

jrrtoken
11-16-2010, 10:51 PM
I'm just curious...if they had stuck with the crafting mechanic of the player crafting everything themselves would you be blasting them for that as well?If they designed it in a way that is engaging, unobtrusive, and... well, fun, then this wouldn't be an issue. Right now, there really isn't a bona-fide crafting system in place; it's an automated experience harvester.

What exactly would you have them do? There are really only so many ways you can approach making items in an MMO. At least this way you're standing in the middle of a town or on your ship for hours making items...which is something I personally can't stand.If an "average" crafting system is a given, then they can do all sorts of things simply interface-wise to mass craft items, reducing the amount of effort that goes into production. Basically, when it starts to become a chore, then it's not fun anymore.

As for designing the mechanic... well, I don't really know how to construct it. If the ~$300 million budget is true (Lord help me if it is), then BioWare can higher plenty of creativity to develop a new paradigm. As long as it's neither a minigame nor an experience machine, then I'd be content with it.

JediAthos
11-17-2010, 12:48 AM
I've never really seen crafting in any MMO that isn't a chore in some form. Gathering materials, finding recipes, posting items for auction...etc...

Ctrl Alt Del
11-17-2010, 05:01 PM
I've never really seen crafting in any MMO that isn't a chore in some form. Gathering materials, finding recipes, posting items for auction...etc...
That's why he said a new paradigm. Many developers' philosophy is "what's not fun should probably get cut". Dunno why this doesn't apply to crafting.

JediAthos
11-18-2010, 04:32 PM
As I said before...you can't go at too many different ways really...to craft items you have to have recipes, and materials. So you either have to buy, find, or learn recipes; gather materials, and then make your items. There isn't really much new you can do with that. The mechanic TOR will use is one different way to go about it which breaks away from your typical MMO crafting in that you as the player, don't have to devote entire gaming sessions to making items.

jrrtoken
11-18-2010, 07:20 PM
As I said before...you can't go at too many different ways really...to craft items you have to have recipes, and materials. So you either have to buy, find, or learn recipes; gather materials, and then make your items. There isn't really much new you can do with that. The mechanic TOR will use is one different way to go about it which breaks away from your typical MMO crafting in that you as the player, don't have to devote entire gaming sessions to making items.Bolded for emphasis; the point that is being addressed is not exactly "It's the same as everything else, but TOR's system is shoddy" but rather "It's the same as everything else, as in the design is bad to begin with". The very fact that both players and developers acknowledge that the crafting zeitgeist is boring and un-fun - and seem content enough to not address the problem directly - is indicative of an inherently poor mechanic.

When most "good" developers stumble upon/develop a game mechanic that is eventually deemed detrimental to the player's overall experience, they usually go back to the drawing board and revise it completely, or they scrap it. Valve considered a deathmatch-like multiplayer mode for Portal, but after testing, deemed that it wasn't fun enough to be included in the final product. Apparently, even after significant testing and tweaking, it was erased indefinitely and replaced with a multiplayer co-op campaign for Portal 2. This is a generally good design and management decision from the developer's level.

With TOR, we are not presented with an alternative or a removal; instead, we are presented with a shortcut, an excuse. Interactivity has been outsourced to a machine, allowing the player to focus on all of the "fun" stuff in an MMO, a game. A game: something that is meant to entertain the player, not to burden them. BioWare seems compelled to cling to the contemporary crafting paradigm because "everyone else has it", so TOR has to have it, out of - perhaps - fear of people thinking that "it isn't really an MMO".

logan23
11-18-2010, 10:50 PM
Crafting is a no win situation in designing a system. Crafting is about making special items but in real life a person would make their own style but you can not do that in a game. One idea would be to introduce a system /toolset which would be similar to modding where a player can actually make something new and be able to get states attached to it in a dice roll so player can not make super weapons but as in learning a craft like blacksmith you will not always get the most ideal blade till years and years of refining your skill. Back to the modding is that you would be able to shape the design onto a selection of base models. these models like in a character creation,..change the face, can change the item/weapon,armor. Again do to collision they would limit certain things. just my 2 cents

JediAthos
11-19-2010, 02:34 PM
BioWare seems compelled to cling to the contemporary crafting paradigm because "everyone else has it", so TOR has to have it, out of - perhaps - fear of people thinking that "it isn't really an MMO".

You make a good point here, but I think in the end if they chose not to include it they'd face enough of a backlash that it would eventually get implemented. I suppose the best solution is that if a player doesn't want to bother with crafting they should just ignore it.

adamqd
11-19-2010, 02:42 PM
I'm happy for the Crafters to have a crafting system, as long as it doesn't mean I have to grind for hours to scrape cash together to buy they're extortionately priced wares, all Items of any use in battle or game progression should be loot-able or Given... there should be no financial gain from crafting IMO.

JediAthos
11-19-2010, 03:03 PM
I'm happy for the Crafters to have a crafting system, as long as it doesn't mean I have to grind for hours to scrape cash together to buy they're extortionately priced wares, all Items of any use in battle or game progression should be loot-able or Given... there should be no financial gain from crafting IMO.

Good luck with that...let me know how it turns out for ya.

JediAthos
11-19-2010, 03:10 PM
I think we already knew most of this information, but here's a Bioware vid on crafting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMeC8qPjHUc&feature=player_embedded

adamqd
11-19-2010, 03:37 PM
Good luck with that...let me know how it turns out for ya.

I'm the master of my Own destiny Luck doesn't play a part in these kind of things, If it sucks or doesn't suit my Play Style I wont play. I'm not some pathetic life form who yearns for game companies to make my life Livable...

Now the sarcasm and asshattery is out of the way, yes I'll let you know how it works out :)

Hallucination
11-19-2010, 03:42 PM
I guess someone at BW likes Google:
http://img.axleration.com/google-chrome-logo.jpg
http://cdn-www.swtor.com/sites/all/files/en/gamesystems/crew_skills/mission_skills.jpg

JediAthos
11-19-2010, 11:34 PM
I'm the master of my Own destiny Luck doesn't play a part in these kind of things, If it sucks or doesn't suit my Play Style I wont play. I'm not some pathetic life form who yearns for game companies to make my life Livable...

Now the sarcasm and asshattery is out of the way, yes I'll let you know how it works out :)

Good to hear...and saracasm?? me??? nooooo!

Darth Avlectus
11-20-2010, 04:30 AM
How would a company go about such a thing as making this "more fun"? I'm just a little new to the process as I never played an MMO before, so please bear with me.

For example, crafting your own crystal for a lightsaber in a furnace, like SW lore. Sounds involved but could be fun.

But I guess everything else is more like a simulation? Kind of like "mean time" leveling up in a typical RPG? (I.E. Dragon warrior you must make sure that your character is past a certain level in order to even be able to beat the game.)

Would someone explain how this works and what the "ugh" is all about?

adamqd
11-20-2010, 05:25 AM
http://swg.wikia.com/wiki/Resource
http://swg.wikia.com/wiki/Novice_Crafting
http://swg.wikia.com/wiki/Reverse_engineering

IMO, like pulling teeth... I have no experience with other MMO's though.