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View Full Version : yay and nay survey: TOR


Darth Avlectus
11-20-2010, 06:55 PM
It's nearing the release (relatively) of the MMO. With (currently) only a few months left to go, I'm just getting a feel of us people here. There seems to be as many for SWTOR as against it, here on LF.

So a public poll, folks. Vote and cast your opinion.

Hallucination
11-20-2010, 08:32 PM
I'm a yay, because it kinda looks like it might have a bit of a chance to be sorta fun at times.

In before haters.

Jae Onasi
11-20-2010, 09:28 PM
Yes, no question.

The Doctor
11-20-2010, 09:34 PM
More "No" than you could possibly imagine.

Endorenna
11-20-2010, 10:07 PM
Looks awesome to me. :) I've been following it since it was first announced, and since I happen to like MMOs...yeah.

JediExile
11-20-2010, 10:28 PM
Ahhh...excited because it's a Star Wars game. But dislike because I don't like MMOs...and I wanted KotOR3. :P

I'm going to try it out, though.

Darth Avlectus
11-21-2010, 12:28 AM
Yes, no question.
Confusion milady?

adamqd
11-21-2010, 07:02 AM
Yay, the only negative feelings I have are the fact they won't be releasing a an SPRPG KotOR III, but that has nothing to do with the quality or Story of tOR, I think it'll be good.

starkiller1157
11-21-2010, 10:46 AM
Nay for me. It doesn't have a star wars look or feel for me. Looks like just some random space MMO that just happens to have lightsabers(which, no offense, but the lightsabers look lame. I like the TFU, JK:Academy, Kotor & RotS Video Game lightsabers better)

Qui-Don Jorn
11-21-2010, 09:48 PM
Definately. I don't have anything against MMO's and I never cared either way about getting a KotOR 3, and I think it looks good, (the lightsabers do look a kinda crappy, but thats not going to stop me from playing it, everything else looks good) And besides, it'll sorta be like a KotOR 3 except on a WAY bigger scale.

Zerimar Nyliram
11-22-2010, 10:37 AM
I'd say mostly "Yes."

Also, it's yea, not yay.

Ztalker
11-22-2010, 12:40 PM
A full 'yes.'

It's Bioware making a Star Wars game. Not Lucasarts making a Star Wars game. So it'll be good.

Prime
11-22-2010, 03:39 PM
Mostly "yay". But a lot will depend on how the story and solo elements are realized.

JediAthos
11-22-2010, 04:28 PM
I would say yes...there are some things that I don't care for, but for the most part I'm looking forward to it and will play it.

Fallen Guardian
11-22-2010, 07:34 PM
Nay. The problem being that everything looks like it is from Episodes 4,5, and 6. The Republic troops look like clones. The Sith look like Imperials. In the Hope trailer the main soldier also bore too much resemblance to Jango Fett. It seems they took a rich unexplored environment of the Star Wars universe and filled it with Episode 4,5, and 6 looking characters.

Ctrl Alt Del
11-22-2010, 10:31 PM
Unsure, pending to nay. I love the fact that KotOR franchise has not been forgotten but I despise that KotOR 3 was relinquished. That and I dislike MMOs so, given the opportunity, I might play it but I have my doubts it'll be anywhere as enjoyable as the first two games.

truJedi
11-22-2010, 11:14 PM
nay....make me vomit ...MMO'S bblllleeeuurrhhhggg!!!

Darth Avlectus
11-23-2010, 02:33 AM
@ fallen guardian: you forgot the PT as well. :p

I fit in either unsure or changed my mind since I used to be totally 100% nay. Just in general because I don't much know or care about mmo games. We'll just have to see if the distaste of unoriginality is enough to keep me completely away. I'm curious enough to maybe try it out but have serious doubts about it all the same.

Ztalker
11-24-2010, 08:58 AM
nay....make me vomit ...MMO'S bblllleeeuurrhhhggg!!!

Care to elaborate?

I've seen similar things in threads regarding WoW here. I honestly believe most people 'hate' mmo's because a monthly fee is required to play.
However, if you play RPG's or Shooter, you'd probably buy a new game every month or two, money that is no put into a game you'll constantly play.

It's like buying a small, cheap little house from your own money every year or five or normal family home (for 20 years) which requires you to take a mortgage. One is not necessarily better then the other.

I'm a student and don't have much money to spend, but I beta-tested WoW and then and there concluded it was a good game but I lacked the finances to play it. Now that I do, I play it.
The montly fee doesn't make it bad.

The C.E.O. of Activision is thinking about asking fees for playing COD in multiplayer. One of the loading messages is "Free online play included with every black ops game."

truJedi
11-24-2010, 05:18 PM
@ Ztalker ^^

just a personall preferance i guess, i dont like the MMO style of gameplay,
Does not appeal to me one bit. It may be a great game storywise and whatever ,
but because its an MMO style of game...it does most deffinetly not tickle my fancy lol
And because it happened to probly the greatest star wars series ever made ( my beloved kotor....sigh...) lol yeh its makes me phisically ill and causes aggressive vomiting and in some casses ...sneezing?? lol so there is my elaboration :D

Tommycat
11-25-2010, 03:34 PM
Absolutely YES. If I can't have KotOR III then I'll take TOR. I see a break from much of the MMO mold. There's far more emphasis on story than other MMO's(not saying that others don't HAVE story, just that it's not their focal point). Your "pets" can do things for you that you don't want to do(diplomacy missions, crafting, salvaging). You can actually LOSE your "pets" with decisions you make. Yet it still keeps some elements that I enjoy as an MMO player. MASSIVE landscape. Loads of content. Cooperative play.

Most people who dislike MMO's do so on principle alone(please note that I did say most). They dislike the monthly fee. They dislike playing with other players(sure there are morons who grief, but there's a lot more really good players out there who will help you for no other reason than they WANT to help). They hear horror stories and think that's the norm. And you know some have tried ONE MMO(like WoW) and thought.. I don't like this one, so I won't like any of them. It's like playing one computer game and deciding that all games are like sim city and because you didn't like that you won't like any others.
just a personall preferance i guess, i dont like the MMO style of gameplay,
Does not appeal to me one bit.
Describe the style of gameplay YOU associate with MMO's.

truJedi
11-25-2010, 05:16 PM
ummmmmm.....MMO style of gameplay ?? ...

Ctrl Alt Del
11-25-2010, 05:40 PM
Describe the style of gameplay YOU associate with MMO's.
To be fair, TOR seems to have typical 1-0 gameplay with a fancy cover system.

Titanius Anglesmith
11-25-2010, 06:01 PM
Would I prefer a single player RPG? Absolutely yes.

Am I still excited about this game? Well... mostly yes.

Q
11-27-2010, 09:13 PM
I hope it fails miserably.

Jamps
11-28-2010, 01:22 PM
I'm pretty disappointed that they decided to go the MMO route on the series... especially 300-some years after the events of KOTOR. If it were set immediately after TSL, I may have considered buying it, but I really wish it was another single-player RPG.

I kinda hope it crashes and burns and they make the sequel everyone has been waiting for.

Ctrl Alt Del
11-28-2010, 01:54 PM
I hope it fails miserably.
Part of my persona secretly hopes that that happens. If I can't have my cookie the way I want it, then no one's having it either.

Darth InSidious
11-28-2010, 01:58 PM
Nay.

Sabretooth
11-28-2010, 02:19 PM
TOR will be a success alright. As for me,

http://twenty-somethingtravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/haters_gonna_hate.gif

mstr kenobi
11-29-2010, 12:25 AM
I was nay, then undecided (that, well it could be good thought), and then firmly back in the nay camp and i hope it fails in craptacular way, lucasarts always deserves a good fail.

Yeah i'm a hater and i'm hating lol

Qui-Don Jorn
12-01-2010, 05:41 PM
Wow. Hoping it fails....I can't even fathom that.
i'm just going to enjoy it and let the haters miss out.

igyman
12-06-2010, 11:41 AM
I'm in the "No" crowd. The reasons:
1) It doesn't really look like the "Old" Republic with those ship, Jedi and trooper designs.
2) It's an MMO, which is just not my cup of tea when it comes to video game genres for many reasons I don't care to repeat.

Still, I hope those who do decide to play it will have a good time. As for me, I'll stick to single player RPGs (and other genres) which don't require monthly subscriptions in order to play. :)

Astor
12-06-2010, 12:03 PM
I started off firmly in the 'nay' camp, then moved to the 'surely it can't be that bad' camp, then the 'yay' camp, and now I don't know where I am.

I'll definitely be making use of the free trial period, at least.

I don't like how they've gone from the 'we took inspiration from the films' position, as they had with KOTOR, to this position of 'We've just taken everything from the films and changed it slightly', but if it plays well enough I might be convinced to give it longer than the trial.

But it's a rather colossal 'might'.

mimartin
12-06-2010, 02:45 PM
I saw Bar, so that is how I voted.

I'll possibly try and I’m pretty sure it will exceed my expectations since I have none.

Char Ell
12-07-2010, 12:38 AM
Yay by default though I voted unsure since I have no MMORPG experience. LucasArts has no other games I'm interested in and as far as I can tell it's not likely that LucasArts will publish a Star Wars game I'm interested in playing in the near future. Thus TOR will be the only way for me to get a fresh Star Wars gaming fix cuz replaying KotOR and TSL only makes me wish for KotOR 3 and after 3+ years of that torture I'm through. Through I say!!!

danitiwa
12-11-2010, 06:53 PM
I'd much rather like kotor3, so no. I'll give it a chance if people who've played it think it's outstandingly amazing, but if it's as unentertaining as Star Wars Galaxies I'm probably not buying it.

Darth Avlectus
12-12-2010, 12:58 AM
^^^Welcome newcomer. :D

purifier
12-12-2010, 02:39 AM
I'm just trying find this "Yoda's Dead Raccoons Roadkill Bar'n'Grill." :raise:



Okay, okay....I voted "unsure"
Don't know whether to yea it or nay it.


But seriously...where's the Bar'n'Grill?

Tommycat
12-14-2010, 01:54 PM
ummmmmm.....MMO style of gameplay ?? ...

Define the MMO style of gameplay. There are several different variations.

Raven 16
12-17-2010, 04:13 PM
NO! rather have kotor 3 for 360 or pc! :evil

SoYa
12-24-2010, 02:00 AM
I like it for a few key reasons.
a) Playing with friends: I have a good group of 3 friends who I know for sure will get this, and I know at least two will play it all the time with me. And I have 3-4 other friends who might get it.
b) Bioware: Everything they touch is gold. I will trust whatever they do. I wasn't going to get Dragon Age before. Now I've learned my lesson.
c) It's not just any MMO: From what I have either seen or heard, this seems like it is much better than any MMO. I have always hated MMO's because of a lack of story. I had loved the other parts about it (player vs player, merchanting, crafting, playing with people, clans), but without a decent story mode those games all seem empty. This game is almost guarenteed to have a good story (decent at worst). And the added elements will hopefully increase it's long term appeal.

I understand the other side of the argument, but the key point here is letter b. It won't fail us...

@Ztalker - Your Activision comment can be misinterpreted. EA has already done that with madden. If you get a new copy you do not have to pay for the online. It is a code that allows you to access the online features. If you buy a used copy you will not recieve this code. Instead you have to purchase it from the marketplace or store for around ten extra dollars. It isn't a monthly fee though. Activision would have done the same thing. It wouldn't effect me since I got the game at the midnight release, but the reason I have a problem with it because it then gets more people to buy used copies which gives even more money to the producers, and less money to the distibuters. And there is already a large margin. Rightfully earned, but it should not be taken advantage of like that.

Emalin
01-01-2011, 11:01 AM
Voted "unsure" because:

(1) Like the above poster said, everything Bioware touches is gold.
(2) However, I'm desperately disappointed that there will not be a third SPRPG continuing the Revan/Exile storyline. I'm also disappointed that they seemed to have made the "True Sith" into just another bunch of your typical Sithy bad guys. KOTOR2 led me to believe the True Sith were something... different...
(3) And lastly, I can't afford a monthly subscription. :p

Maybe the MMO will turn out to be good, and if it does, great. Still, I don't think I'm gonna get over being denied KOTOR3 anytime soon! *sigh*

Darth Avlectus
01-03-2011, 01:00 AM
^^^Look it's another 06'er. :p

Darth333
01-06-2011, 10:58 PM
Not at all. When someone first told me it would be an MMO about five years ago, I was hoping I had heard wrong...but no...

Sorry MMOs are just not my cup of tea. I play games very irregularly and when I do, I often don't have internet access or very limited access so it's just not worth it (and I have no interest in spending time playing MMOs either).

internalgrenade
01-08-2011, 10:21 AM
i went from liking it to not. it has nothing to do with the original series except the name. so i still think they should come out with a kotor 3. and if they don't i will invest all my assets when i am 18 to make a kotor 3

internalgrenade
01-08-2011, 10:25 AM
Darth333:
Prouver qu'ils ont tort. Que tous les Etoiles être le vôtre.

Darth Avlectus
01-08-2011, 07:48 PM
Not at all. When someone first told me it would be an MMO about five years ago, I was hoping I had heard wrong...but no...

Sorry MMOs are just not my cup of tea. I play games very irregularly and when I do, I often don't have internet access or very limited access so it's just not worth it (and I have no interest in spending time playing MMOs either).

I was worried you were shutting this thread down--not sure why you gave me that vibe.

Yeah, the irregular playing is starting to become my life as well. Can't keep up with it, speaking for myself personally.

Trying not to knock it before I try it, and I want to try it out, but it just doesn't seem like it would work for me.

harark1
01-09-2011, 07:12 PM
Nay. The problem being that everything looks like it is from Episodes 4,5, and 6. The Republic troops look like clones. The Sith look like Imperials. In the Hope trailer the main soldier also bore too much resemblance to Jango Fett. It seems they took a rich unexplored environment of the Star Wars universe and filled it with Episode 4,5, and 6 looking characters.

FYI The sith are imps. This is the begining of the empire. For me I say YAY!!!!!!!!! It looks awesome.:thmbup1::thmbup1::thmbup1:

Isaac Clarke
01-17-2011, 11:49 AM
I voted unsure, because it looks WAYYYY too much like the movies, the lightsabers don't look like lightsabers, and I think that the lightsaber hilts look WAY too thick.(plus, I secretly hope it fails miserably so we can get K3.) On the other hand, I think this will be marginally good.

Tommycat
01-17-2011, 12:24 PM
You do realize that if it does fail miserably, it will seal the fate of K3 as well, as the marketing guys would simply say that there isn't enough interest in the KotOR series to justify making another game. There MIGHT be a K3 if people play it and leave after completing the main campaign(s). Though admittedly, TOR means there most likely will not ever be a KotOR 3. But those wanting to play it without a monthly fee, have hope. There might be an emulator that comes out a couple years after the official game does.

Miltiades
01-18-2011, 08:21 PM
For me, it's a careful "yes". Once I detached TOR from the KotOR games, I could see myself playing the game. I'm still a little wary, and I'll probably wait some time after its release to decide if I'm going to buy it, but I've always wanted to play a Star Wars MMO and TOR seems to be the best option for that.

VeniVidiVicous
03-09-2011, 09:31 PM
Nay for me.

Define the MMO style of gameplay. There are several different variations.

Are there? I was convinced that all mmos have really bad rpg combat systems.

There are single player exceptions like Mass Effect but utilizing something like that would been too radical for Bioware and your typical mmo player of course.

Prime
03-10-2011, 05:12 PM
Not to mention difficult.

VeniVidiVicous
03-10-2011, 07:57 PM
Not to mention difficult.

Exactly. It's awful when players who actually bother to get good at a game have the benefit of skill when playing!

Honestly, i'm convinced these mmos were made so people who can't play computer games normally can have a genre where they feel just as capable as any other person.

Darth Avlectus
03-14-2011, 02:23 AM
I'm impressed this thread is still hanging on so near and close to the release of TOR.

Exactly. It's awful when players who actually bother to get good at a game have the benefit of skill when playing!

Honestly, i'm convinced these mmos were made so people who can't play computer games normally can have a genre where they feel just as capable as any other person.

Eh? You seem to be going back and forth a bit...Let's see if I understand...

What's so wrong with an occasional something which everyone can enjoy and do well at regardless of skill or effort? It is about amusement, no? Something that everyone can enjoy regardless of gaming expertise?
Conversely what is so wrong with meritocracy in some games?

VeniVidiVicous
03-14-2011, 09:23 AM
What's so wrong with an occasional something which everyone can enjoy and do well at regardless of skill or effort? It is about amusement, no? Something that everyone can enjoy regardless of gaming expertise?


Well that's one way of putting it. At the end of the day i'd have to agree with you that it is about having fun.

Conversely what is so wrong with meritocracy in some games?

I'll try explain what I mean better here.
Nothings wrong with things being based on merit however that not what happens in mmorpgs. It's about leveling up your character and what items you wear, these are the only things that determine how good your character will be.

Basically, i've been hoping for a while now that someone would change things up a bit in an mmo. For a brief moment I thought Bioware were going to break the norm and deliver a unique mmo but that was me being overly optimistic.

Simply put: If they had lightsabers in WoW there'd be little difference between these games.

Tommycat
03-15-2011, 05:14 PM
Simply put: If they had lightsabers in WoW there'd be little difference between these games.

Except the gameplay, Voice acting, story, companions, ships, space combat, and STORY!

I'll be honest, I tried WoW, and didn't like it. TOR isn't like WoW from any of the gameplay footage I've seen. And Bioware has made sure that there are 8 unique stories. EIGHT! Plus the over arching story. That's something I haven't seen in an MMO. Usually it's one, maybe 2 sideways stories... that can be ignored as you AFK grind your character on rats, boars, and bears.

Pho3nix
03-15-2011, 06:16 PM
I don't mind it having similarities to World of Warcraft, and to be honest Blizzard didn't really introduce anything new or innovative in their MMO - it was just extremely well polished.

Tommycat
03-15-2011, 07:37 PM
I don't mind it having similarities to World of Warcraft, and to be honest Blizzard didn't really introduce anything new or innovative in their MMO - it was just extremely well polished.
Haha yeah, If anything, WoW just ripped off ideas from all the MMO's out there, and streamlined it. I mean it's not like the kill/loot/grind/quest thing hadn't been done before. My only real reason for disliking WoW was that it was boring(to me). There were some others that tried something different, but failed miserably. But WoW, there wasn't anything they really did different than anyone else. Just really well polished. It also was designed to just about run on a waffle iron... That's probably the biggest draw they had. It could run on just about any hardware out there.

VeniVidiVicous
03-15-2011, 08:47 PM
TOR isn't like WoW from any of the gameplay footage I've seen.

I disagree here.

I've seen the gameplay footage on their site and it is the same as WoW. Group raids are there just healers are now called jedi consulars and so on and so on.
Same boring, crappy, unappealing, unintuitive mmorpg gameplay.

I nearly hope this game's an epic failure along with that kids cartoon show.

Tommycat
03-15-2011, 09:18 PM
I disagree here.

I've seen the gameplay footage on their site and it is the same as WoW. Group raids are there just healers are now called jedi consulars and so on and so on.
Same boring, crappy, unappealing, unintuitive mmorpg gameplay.

I nearly hope this game's an epic failure along with that kids cartoon show.

Except that the jedi consulars aren't the only healers. One of the first vids showed the smuggler as the healer. If you look at the advanced classes, you can spec out a healer in several classes. Can't do that in WoW.

And I think you should look at that "kids cartoon" it's actually not that bad from the most recent shows.

WoW didn't invent group raids. Not to mention the groups are significantly smaller, so you don't have to wait as long to do the quest you want(from what we've seen). What crappy unappealing unintuitive gameplay are you referencing here that wasn't in KotOR and TSL?

Darth Avlectus
03-15-2011, 09:21 PM
Well that's one way of putting it. At the end of the day i'd have to agree with you that it is about having fun.

I'll try explain what I mean better here.
Nothings wrong with things being based on merit however that not what happens in mmorpgs. It's about leveling up your character and what items you wear, these are the only things that determine how good your character will be.

Basically, i've been hoping for a while now that someone would change things up a bit in an mmo. For a brief moment I thought Bioware were going to break the norm and deliver a unique mmo but that was me being overly optimistic. Simply put: If they had lightsabers in WoW there'd be little difference between these games.

Just a forewarning I have very limited experience in MMO's. I am trying to keep an open mind and in this case I will even say crap is crap, but I cannot solidly make that judgment. I might even agree with you in general about MMOs, but having not played much I cannot solidly come to a conclusion.

What kind of changes do you mean?

Generally: While a certain pattern in gaming of various sorts admittedly gets repeated, tbh what new direction in gameplay is there? New stuff is being invented all the time, but little of it makes the final cut. Some of it is good stuff, other stuff is marginal at best. It ultimately serves a need.
Developers do tend to "use it if it works" and from the producer/seller's p.o.v. overall satisfaction eventually equates to a long term sustainable income because it keeps the base of fans/customers interesed enough to keep buying subscription time. I know this doesn't always make for the best gameplay but to the people on the other end from consumers, money is the score and scoring is success.

Suppose in the long run it'd be better if the games did make the small improvements that make all the difference. Certainly that sets one game apart from another.

I disagree here.

I've seen the gameplay footage on their site and it is the same as WoW. Group raids are there just healers are now called jedi consulars and so on and so on.
Same boring, crappy, unappealing, unintuitive mmorpg gameplay.
How so?


I nearly hope this game's an epic failure along with that kids cartoon show.

Well, it can't really be epic if it is fail. Fail can be massive, though. Ah internet misnomers. :)

I do agree the CW cartoon isn't all that great, and for that matter I'm a little irked that TSL is being boxed up and put on the wayside due to this MMO. I just figure if the SW canon committee has approved so many things and is in a constant state of retcon over accepted material, it isn't a crime to just take what I like and say F*** the rest.

Hallucination
03-15-2011, 10:04 PM
If you look at the advanced classes, you can spec out a healer in several classes. Can't do that in WoW.
Actually, you can do that in WoW.

WoW didn't invent group raids. Not to mention the groups are significantly smaller, so you don't have to wait as long to do the quest you want(from what we've seen).
I wouldn't say that the groups are significantly smaller, since the videos of 4-mans we've seen have been the equivalent to WoW's 5-mans, and Bioware has said that they will also have larger raids of currently unspecified sizes.

@GTA: Could you provide some evidence that they're flipping the bird to K2's story? I've heard that claim before but can't recall anything substantial backing it up.

Darth Avlectus
03-16-2011, 01:01 AM
^^^Not really flipping the bird per se. What I talking about is pretty much how they just flat disregard TSL. It's more or less like TSL didn't happen. In timelines it's like Revan simply won and that was all until he left for dromund kaas once his memory returned. Sure it could be that the historian was "just staying relevant", however TSL made numerous references to the sith empire in the shadows. I'd just think there would at least be some reference to/recognition of the Malachor incident.

Just looks like Bioware simply ignoring Obsidian's work. So I just kind of shrug and say 'meh'.

Zerimar Nyliram
03-16-2011, 01:29 PM
Dude, I keep saying it over and over again: What about the whole "truth Sith" thing? That's taken directly from TSL! And yes, you can make the case that the "true Sith" were mentioned in KOTOR, but I still maintain it was a throwaway line that didn't have much meaning behind it.

ChAiNz.2da
03-16-2011, 03:03 PM
Looking forward to it myself personally. Don't really care about it being an MMO.. I play DDO and it's main demographic (fortunately) brings in the older gens. You don't see many ppl on there under their 20's and it makes for a world of difference with the enjoyment factor...

I'm hoping the same goes with Star Wars. Yeah sure.. it's going to attract some of the younger crowd.. but the main demographic of SW seems (to me) to be edging on the upper echelon of age brackets. ;)

WoW was just waaaaaaaay to full of "children" players, be it actual age or just their mentality... (not all mind you, but more than enough to make it unbearable)

TSL lovers need not read any further. It will only make you bitter since I'm not going to respond. The following is my opinion on Obsidian's story inclusion/exclusion :xp:
As far as the disregarding of Obsidian's work (TSL).. one can only hope. The only character from that sad excuse of a sequel I'd like to see mentioned would be the one you wound up killing at the end... figures.

With any luck, there will be at least some Jolee and/or Kreia references sprinkled in the story. Could really care less about TSL's protagonist though. Whole storyline was garbage worth forgetting about.

Tommycat
03-16-2011, 04:25 PM
Actually they have included a lot of TSL's story line. The whole turning on the True Sith Emperor was a way to reconcile the stories. Plus we haven't really played the main story as of yet. We may well hear of Darth Traya, misleading the Sith into believing they had won, to get the Exile to trust her. Remember she wanted to destroy the Force, and would do anything to achieve that goal.

Darth Avlectus
03-16-2011, 07:51 PM
^^^Yeah, true. There is a lot we have yet to hear. I'm not holding my breath, though. ;)

Tommy pretty much said about the emperor of the true sith what I was going to say, but:
Dude, I keep saying it over and over again: What about the whole "truth Sith" thing? That's taken directly from TSL! And that's all the further it gets into references directly, the rest are vague if not cryptic.
And yes, you can make the case that the "true Sith" were mentioned in KOTOR, but I still maintain it was a throwaway line that didn't have much meaning behind it.
I disagree, given the recent climate of LA content, I'd say this was sort of the idea all along because up until now the only things we had about true sith and the great hyperspace war were obscure pieces and mere references. Granted the "greater scheme" might have not been quite so clear back in '03 (hence I said sort of the idea), however, SW lore is notorious for revisiting stuff. Anyone who followed their pattern of development could probably have speculated as much.

Of course whatever they don't get to, they cede to novelists. :p

@Chainz:http://images.wikia.com/borderlands/images/3/3c/DrHax.jpg
*Summons monitor at ballistic velocity*

Zerimar Nyliram
03-17-2011, 02:54 AM
The one little loading screen in KOTOR speaks of the "true Sith" as the Sith species that died out after they were subjugated by the Dark Jedi from the Second Great Schism. In TSL, we get the sense that the "true Sith" refers to something so much bigger and more mysterious, having virtually nothing to do with the throwaway line from the previous game at all. It is possible that Obsidian took notice of this one obscure line from the loading scene and expanded upon it--or rather transformed it into something else entirely--but I personally think that it has absolutely nothing to do with that reference made in the first game, and that the two identical terms are simply coincidental.

Indeed, this is the case because we know that Obsidian invented the "true Sith" subplot as something that was completely new and fresh, having absolutely nothing to do with the Sith Empire or the species of the same name. Now, Bioware has taken the idea and changed it around a bit, linking it right back to the Sith Empire/species from the comics (which was not Obsidian's intention).

Also, let's cut Obsidian some slack, people. It wasn't their fault that TSL was left it unfinished; it was LucasArts' fault. They were the ones that rushed the release for Christmas before Obsidian had the chance to finish the game, and it is my firm belief that the game would have been just a good as the first--or possible even a little bit better--had they been permitted to complete it properly.

I also wish it were Obsidian and not Bioware that were in charge of The Old Republic, because I truly wonder what their version of the "true Sith" may have been like. At first, most of us Expanded Universe junkies dismissed the connection to the Great Hyperspace War because 1. it was just too easy of a connection and not the most creative, and 2. Obsidian had announced that the "true Sith" had nothing to do with the Sith Lords of Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow's lineage. We made up alternative theories that dug deeper into Star Wars lore; but in the end it turned out that the easiest, most unimaginative connection that we had all overlooked and discarded from the outset was the correct one, making these "true Sith" little different from the Sith we see in every incarnation: bitter rivals of the Jedi and the Republic who wish to destroy both entities and rule the galaxy as dictators.

I truly believe that if the story were left in the hands of Obsidian, who came up with the idea in the first place, we would have gotten a new, fresh incarnation of the Sith unlike any other.

Zerimar Nyliram
03-17-2011, 02:55 AM
For anyone who's interested, my own theory from back in the day was my favorite. In a nutshell, I believed the "true Sith" to have been the followers of the Sith king Adas from 28,000 BBY (pre-Republic), who drove the Rakata from Korriban and went on to conquer other planets to form short-lived an empire, having been instantly propelled into a space age from primitiveness once they were introduced to Rakatan technology, as well as the dark side of the Force. But they soon devolved back into a primitive species until the coming of the Dark Jedi in 6,900 BBY. All of this is from Star Wars canon.

Where my theory came into play was as follows: There was a bit of a division among the Sith species at this time. The ones who were overwhelmed by this new technology stayed primitive, whereas Adas' followers, believing them weak, forsook them and retreated to the Unknown Regions, leaving the "weakling" Sith to fend for themselves as they themselves built their empire in secret. This was the "true Sith Empire" that Kreia spoke of.

However, observing from a distance, they were aware of their "weak" brethren being conquered and subjugated by the fallen Jedi, and from then on they wished to destroy the Sith Lords, believing them heretics. They would soon return to destroy the Sith order, having no cares for the Jedi or the Republic whatsoever; but if they be destroyed in the process for getting in the way, then so be it. This was the threat to the galaxy that Revan and the Exile went off to battle.

So this way, we would have a completely new incarnation of the Sith, completely unique and unlike anything we've ever seen up till now. Instead of hating the Jedi, they hate the other Sith; and there could have been a galaxy-wise war between the two great dark side organizations.

Unfortunately, LucasArts gave handed the reigns over to Bioware, and the "true Sith" they are giving us are not unique at all. They are the same old Sith all over again. Now, I have nothing against Bioware. I love their games, particularly Mass Effect and Dragon Age; but I feel that the story of the "true Sith" should have been left with Obsidian because they would have gotten it right.

mstr kenobi
03-17-2011, 09:28 PM
Well, i can't really blame Lucasarts for making the "true Sith" just like the Sith we saw in the movies, and in all of the EU.

If they make the "true Sith" something entirely different from what we saw (specially in their philosophy) in the movies...
That would make the Sith that we all know and love/hate followers of the "fake" Sith philosophy!!!

Which is why Obsidian's un-Starwarsy mumbo-jumbo was doomed from the beggining.

Zerimar Nyliram
03-17-2011, 10:23 PM
No, it doesn't. It just presents a completely different breed of Sith with a completely different philosophy. It doesn't make one side or the other "true" or "fake," despite the fact that Kreia believed one of them to be "true." Both sides would have considered themselves "true" and the other "false."

It just would have brought something new and fresh to Star Wars. There's nothing wrong with going the extra mile and introducing something that is not the norm. Sometimes it works out for the better (see the Yuuzhan Vong).

Would you rather be brave, or would you rather play it safe? Personally, I'd rather be brave. Sure, there's a big chance that the fans may find it too far of a departure from the norm, but playing it safe can get very, very old and boring sometimes.

mstr kenobi
03-17-2011, 11:36 PM
As far as i'm concerned TSL already stepped over the line, big time, with the whole kill the force business and the force vacuum cleaner.

Kreia make a very good point when talking about the Sith, the Sith is a belief, the Sith are not the soldiers, the ships, and not their whole empire (nor the peanut butter lol).

And again, as far as i'm concerned at least, that belief is that the dark side of the force is stronger, and that the Jedi are the enemy and they will hunt them down to extinction.
That's the Sith for me, it's already been established in the franchise and i like it to stay that way, wanna do something different? Get another name, this one's taken.

Again, it's down to preference, for me this is an established thing in the franchise and i don't like seeing it changed around.
Kotor was regarded as a copy/ripoff/homage to the films and i loved it, TSL was original and left me with a "that doesn't really fit" feeling at various times.

Regarding the Vong, in the GFFA at least, life can't exist without the force.

TKA-001
03-17-2011, 11:45 PM
Sometimes it works out for the better (see the Yuuzhan Vong).
Er, right.

Tommycat
03-18-2011, 12:33 AM
Sometimes it works out for the better (see the Yuuzhan Vong).

Um... I think you're mistaken... the Yuuzhan Vong are considered a change for the worse by most SW fans.... Just sayin...

Zerimar Nyliram
03-18-2011, 03:50 PM
Well, I think it was great. In fact, it would have been a great place to end the post-Return of the Jedi EU. I wish they hadn't written past that because now it's just old and stale.

DarthMuffin
03-20-2011, 08:02 PM
I'm going with a tentative "yea".

I should point out that I would have preferred a proper KotOR III, but I think an MMO does have its advantages and if anything I'm curious to see how it turns out.

What I'm mostly looking forward to is the scope. I really like how you can visit different planets in KotOR, but sometimes it feels too restrictive. Or rather, it made me wish I could explore more of the Galaxy. I haven't read that much about SWTOR, but I think it's safe to assume that the world should be pretty large and I'm looking forward to hitting all those planets. I'm a long-time fan of the Warcraft universe and what I liked the most in WoW was being able to explore the whole of Azeroth. I'm hoping to get a similar feeling in SWTOR.

It should also allow us to see the Galaxy from the eyes of a grunt. Most Star Wars games put us in the shoes of a larger-than-life hero - which is in accordance with the source material and is fine with me. But SWTOR should allow us to see things with a different perspective and I'm looking forward to it.

I'm a bit disappointed that they're basically sticking to the holy trinity approach (there are variations, but it remains a trinity), but to be honest I've yet to see a different system that truly works. It might not be glamorous to wish for no innovation in the core gameplay, but I forgive them for playing it safe in that area.

Their focus on story and dialogues naturally appeals to me, though I often wonder how the average MMO player will react. From my experience in other MMOs, I don't think the bulk of the player base is really interested in interacting with dialogues and such. Sometimes I get the feeling that they're aiming the game at a very niche market, which might not work in their favour.

The biggest downside for me is that my free time is extremely limited (and nearly non-existent for some extended periods of time), and that obviously doesn't go well with MMOs. It's still possible to enjoy one, but you don't really get the feeling that you get your money's worth. Also, it's rather hard to get involved in the end-game and with guilds when you lapse every 2 months. When I was actively playing WoW, it was common for me to play a month or 2, then go on a break for 3 months; that doesn't do wonders to the community aspect.

So overall, I'm looking forward to it. I know I won't be able to experience it fully because of my time constraints, but I think it should provide me with a decent amount of fun. I have to say that I'm really starving for some Star Wars entertainment right now, and at this point in time the game would have to be really bad for me not to enjoy it.

Primogen
03-21-2011, 06:41 PM
The Yuuzhan Vong were the most over the top villains I've -ever- seen, and that's saying something.

That said, I'm pleased with TOR. I honestly think that TSL should never have been made, or at least, it shouldn't have been a nearly direct followup to Knights of the Old Republic. We've got 4000 years of history to work with, there's no reason to restrict yourself to that same block. It's not like Knights of the Old Republic didn't wrap everything up with a nice neat bow at the end - the Sith were defeated/dominant, and Revan was awesome. Roll credits.