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Jae Onasi
05-01-2011, 11:00 PM
Finally.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/05/01/Report-Osama-bin-Laden-dead/UPI-93121304304908/

Keep it semi-civil, please, and no bashing religions here. Thanks.

ZimmMaster
05-01-2011, 11:03 PM
Damn, Jae beat me to it. But YES! Good Riddance. President Obama is giving a speech as I type.

Boba Rhett
05-01-2011, 11:07 PM
Amazing news. Has anybody heard more of the circumstances?

Jae Onasi
05-01-2011, 11:08 PM
Initial reports say either a missile or bomb, possibly from a drone, got him. CNN is saying he was killed in a mansion outside of Islamabad in Pakistan. I hope al-Qaeda falls apart after this.

mimartin
05-01-2011, 11:11 PM
And just who told Jae to turn on the TV! :xp:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/images/1030-02.jpg

8 years to the day since President Bush gave the mission accoplished speech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Mission_Accomplished_Speech) aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln.


According to NBC News the US has his (Osama's that is) body.

Jae Onasi
05-01-2011, 11:12 PM
And just who told Jae to turn on the TV! :xp:

mimartin did! And boy, am I ever glad!!

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
05-01-2011, 11:20 PM
Al quaeda has probably been conducting cloning experiments in middleofnowhereistan.. :p

I hope al-Qaeda falls apart after this.

I personally doubt it.. Im sure they have had leadership contingency plans for some time.

Canderis
05-01-2011, 11:24 PM
http://c0219802.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/regular/f13087_1244314219.jpg

Jae Onasi
05-01-2011, 11:34 PM
Heh--from my twitter feed:
darthvader Darth Vader
Yeeeeeesssssss! #binLadendead
8 minutes ago

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
05-01-2011, 11:35 PM
Live stream from the White House: http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whitehouse.gov%2Flive%3Fu tm_source%3Dwh.gov%26utm_medium%3Dshorturl%26utm_c ampaign%3Dshorturl&h=cbf12

Ctrl Alt Del
05-01-2011, 11:41 PM
I hope al-Qaeda falls apart after this.

I hope not. God knows if the next impending threat will be more... threatening.

Working Class Hero
05-01-2011, 11:46 PM
Meh, it isn't really going to change anything. Al-Queda will still be bat**** crazy and still want to bomb the **** out of everybody else.

I'm just waiting for the Pakistani Muslims to whine about the Americans killing a Muslim on Pakistani soil. That'll be a nice bellylaugh. :xp:

Totenkopf
05-01-2011, 11:50 PM
Just finished watching BO's mercifully short speech (decent one for a change). Congrats to the US Special Forces guys who pulled it off. I don't believe al-qaeda is going to disappear very soon, but it has been dealt a big blow.....regardless of how they try to spin it. Perhaps OBL should have operated out of Tehran or Pyongyang (or at least not screwed w/Pakistan).

Arannor
05-02-2011, 12:13 AM
The Pakistani Muslims can whine all they want, we found Bin Ladin went in and got the job done.

Job well done to the soldiers that were apart of the operation.

mimartin
05-02-2011, 12:20 AM
Job well done to the soldiers that were apart of the operation. No, job well done by all the soldiers from all the countries that have served, scarified and died to fight this war against al-Qaeda and terrorism. Be it abroad or here at home.

Arannor
05-02-2011, 12:22 AM
No, job well done by all the soldiers from all the countries that have served, scarified and died to fight this war against al-Qaeda and terrorism. Be it abroad or here at home.

Yes, yes. Thank you for correcting me!!!

Working Class Hero
05-02-2011, 12:26 AM
I'd say it has much less to do with the military than the Pakistani officials who had the balls to tell them where Bin Laden was hiding.

Is anybody else finding it disturbing that intelligence regarding this operation appears to have been confined to the military and Obama? We don't know how many compounds they've blown up until now on faulty intelligence and not heard one peep about it, but now they all get to wave their dicks and the air and take credit for going into another country and committing assassination?

Jae Onasi
05-02-2011, 12:28 AM
Job well done to the soldiers that were apart of the operation.

No, job well done by all the soldiers from all the countries that have served, scarified and died to fight this war against al-Qaeda and terrorism. Be it abroad or here at home.

Job well done to all!
Point Man says thank you, too.

Oh, we're having ham tomorrow night in honor of the big event.

Primogen
05-02-2011, 12:39 AM
May he rot unmourned.

I wonder who's getting the $25,000,000 bounty the government put on his head?

mimartin
05-02-2011, 12:41 AM
I'd say it has much less to do with the military than the Pakistani officials who had the balls to tell them where Bin Laden was hiding. And just why was Osama Bin Laden hiding in Pakistani for the Pakistani official to tell the US where he was hiding? Could it have something to do with those soldiers in Afghanistan putting Bin Laden on the run, forcing him to find a different hiding place that was not as secret?

Edit Sounds like he may have been there close to 5 years.
Is anybody else finding it disturbing that intelligence regarding this operation appears to have been confined to the military and Obama? Nope and with the way information exchanged today, I'm not really sure why it bothers anyone. They could not even keep Bin Ladin death a secret for 1 hour to allow the President to inform the nation. If the US had been destroying innocent compounds I'm sure Al Jazeera would have been all over it.

Totenkopf
05-02-2011, 01:28 AM
I'd say it has much less to do with the military than the Pakistani officials who had the balls to tell them where Bin Laden was hiding.
And just why was Osama Bin Laden hiding in Pakistani for the Pakistani official to tell the US where he was hiding? Could it have something to do with those soldiers in Afghanistan putting Bin Laden on the run, forcing him to find a different hiding place that was not as secret?

It's nice that there some w/in the Pakistani govt that are cooperating with us, but w/o the military operation OBL would still be alive, wch. Mim is quite right, but if you wish to extend some credit to the Pakistani's, that's not unreasonable.


Is anybody else finding it disturbing that intelligence regarding this operation appears to have been confined to the military and Obama?

Not remotely. It WAS a covert op, which means by its very nature it's SECRET. But given the importance of the news, it isn't something that would have remained so for very long.

Sabretooth
05-02-2011, 01:56 AM
I'm just waiting for the Pakistani Muslims to whine about the Americans killing a Muslim on Pakistani soil. That'll be a nice bellylaugh. :xp:
For killing Osama? No, not happening.

Is anybody else finding it disturbing that intelligence regarding this operation appears to have been confined to the military and Obama? We don't know how many compounds they've blown up until now on faulty intelligence and not heard one peep about it, but now they all get to wave their dicks and the air and take credit for going into another country and committing assassination?
The compound was being monitored for weeks before the operation. And this is Pakistan, not Afghanistan - the media is strong here. If faulty compounds were being blown up, it would have been all over the Muslim world's news channels.

I've been following Pakistani news channels for a while now, things are interesting. The operation was apparently conducted at 12:30 and was completed in 40 minutes. Curiously, the helicopter crash was reported at about 01:20 - 01:30. I'm guessing it was a diversion for the US forces to move the body.

Amusingly, the Pakistan Military Academy is located near Abbottabad. How convenient for them to not know who lives in oh-so-super-high-security compound. :indif:

It's nice that there some w/in the Pakistani govt that are cooperating with us, but w/o the military operation OBL would still be alive, wch. Mim is quite right, but if you wish to extend some credit to the Pakistani's, that's not unreasonable
For what, not investigating this super-high-security compound where Osama bin Laden was hiding? Pakistan could have taken care of this whole problem years ago if they wanted to.

Lord of Hunger
05-02-2011, 02:05 AM
Reaction to this event: THANK ****ING GOD THAT **** IS DEAD!!!

My salute to the covert operatives that pulled this off. I'd shake their hand and by them each a drink, but that would compromise their secrecy.

Not to be political, but a friend and I agree that this is going to be firepower for the 2012 Obama Campaign. He thinks it'll be part of the momentum Obama needs to turn his presidency around.

Mav
05-02-2011, 02:05 AM
I wonder who's getting the $25,000,000 bounty the government put on his head?If it was a US operation by US military, then nobody gets a bounty, at least that's how I understand it.

hrmm this is what it takes to get me to post in Kavar's, may it never happen again.

Totenkopf
05-02-2011, 02:07 AM
For what, not investigating this super-high-security compound where Osama bin Laden was hiding? Pakistan could have taken care of this whole problem years ago if they wanted to.

In light of more info having come out about the whole operation, it seems that waterboarding had more to do with the success of this mission than anything the Pakistanis may have done. Apparently, the name of the courier that they traced to find OBL was gotten through enhanced interrogation of KSM and then later confirmed by same w/another terrorist had payoffs farther down the road. Not telling Pakistan anything till after the fact likely had more to do with its success than any co-op we'd have gotten from their fractured govt players (ISI in particular).

Sabretooth
05-02-2011, 02:37 AM
I really doubt Pakistan had much of a role to play in this, and Obama's statements about their help could really just be to hold off the fallout in Pakistan (i.e. the US can just storm in and kill random people in Pakistan if they wanted to). Reports show that Pakistani forces arrived on scene long after the Americans did.

Besides, this compound is a stone's throw away from the Pakistan Military Academy, the Pakistani equivalent of America's West Point. Conveniently they never bothered to wonder who lives behind the eighteen-foot-walls topped with barbed wire.

Liverandbacon
05-02-2011, 02:38 AM
About time. This was largely a symbolic victory, there are people out there currently who are a far larger threat than Osama has been for quite some time. Time to move on and do the same to them.

I hope al-Qaeda falls apart after this.

They aren't going to. Far too organized not to be prepared for something like this. Also, I hope they don't, since this is definitely a situation where it's better to have a known evil than an unknown one, as it makes gathering intelligence easier. If Al Qaeda completely disintegrated, its various parts would form new groups, or latch on to others.

No, job well done by all the soldiers from all the countries that have served, scarified and died to fight this war against al-Qaeda and terrorism. Be it abroad or here at home.

Thanks. I'd just recommend adding intelligence agencies to that list.

Is anybody else finding it disturbing that intelligence regarding this operation appears to have been confined to the military and Obama? We don't know how many compounds they've blown up until now on faulty intelligence and not heard one peep about it, but now they all get to wave their dicks and the air and take credit for going into another country and committing assassination?

Transparency would be disastrous for a covert operation. Any information shared with the public can be seen by our enemies, and it's pretty obvious that sharing info regarding this mission before completion would have defeated the entire purpose. As well as crippling intelligence agencies' ability to get anything done, that sort of change would result in mass resignations. I don't know many people who would be willing to dramatically increase their likelihood of getting killed, just so that Joe Average can feel a little bit more in the loop.

adamqd
05-02-2011, 03:41 AM
Amazing news. Has anybody heard more of the circumstances?

Initial reports say either a missile or bomb, possibly from a drone, got him. CNN is saying he was killed in a mansion outside of Islamabad in Pakistan. I hope al-Qaeda falls apart after this.

News reports this side of the Pond are reporting a single gunshot to the head, American Bullet... Apparently they have Photos of the Body, but obviously too graphic for TV.

Astor
05-02-2011, 03:43 AM
Apparently they've disposed of his body at sea.

While it is of course good news, and a massive story at that, I can't see it affecting things much.

Liverandbacon
05-02-2011, 03:48 AM
Ugh, apparently they're doing the sea-burial in accordance with Muslim tradition. Screw that. Wrap him in a pig skin and feed him to some other pigs, a la Snatch.

The idea that all people deserve respect in death is absurd.

Astor
05-02-2011, 03:58 AM
Ugh, apparently they're doing the sea-burial in accordance with Muslim tradition. Screw that. Wrap him in a pig skin and feed him to some other pigs, a la Snatch.

The idea that all people deserve respect in death is absurd.

I agree, especially with the person in question, but I can understand the burial at sea, though. It'd make finding and retrieving his body near impossible.

But then again, they did that in Transformers, and they could have easily incinerated the body.

And apparently there are some pictures of his body doing the rounds on the internet. Obviously I can't link to them here, but they should be easy enough to find for anyone determined to see for themselves, or just morbidly curious.

EDIT: I wonder, was this one of the important things Obama mentioned during his Birth Certificate speech? :p

Darth_Calo
05-02-2011, 04:06 AM
US army breached and cleared the mansion he was hiding in. crossfire ensued. four dead, no american lives lost. Osama Bin Laden personally fired at American troops but was killed by a single assault rifle round to the head. Also dead, One of Bin Laden's sons, as well as his top courier and the courier's brother. Quick, clean, and simple. Body was photographed, identified, and disposed of in accordance to Muslim traditions with a burial at sea. good riddance.

adamqd
05-02-2011, 04:19 AM
I think the burial at sea was to avoid some kind of extremist shrine if he were buried, or left in the hands of his family. Throw him in the sea, a drop in the Ocean... I think the Muslim tradition part is the "Disposal within 24 hours" rather than the Method, which could of course just be public relations or coincidence, rather than respect for the body.

Darth_Calo
05-02-2011, 04:24 AM
I think the burial at sea was to avoid some kind of extremist shrine if he were buried, or left in the hands of his family. Throw him in the sea, a drop in the Ocean... Good riddance.

probably. I personally think they should have burned the body but hey what do I know

Primogen
05-02-2011, 04:25 AM
It's one last finger given to the extremists - we terminated our enemy, and now we're treating him with -respect-. Just one more sign that we're better than them in every way that matters.

Pho3nix
05-02-2011, 04:46 AM
Oh dang, I always imagined bumping into him somewhere and getting the bounty. I'd rather have him alive than dead.

Alexrd
05-02-2011, 06:03 AM
Obama just assured his re-election.

Anyway, one less terrorist in the world.

Astor
05-02-2011, 06:11 AM
Obama just assured his re-election.



I don't know. I'm sure people might have thought the same about Bush Snr. and the first Gulf War.

Besides, a lot can happen between now and election day. Just look at what's happened so far this year, and it's only just May.

Alexrd
05-02-2011, 06:20 AM
I don't know. I'm sure people might have thought the same about Bush Snr. and the first Gulf War.

Besides, a lot can happen between now and election day. Just look at what's happened so far this year, and it's only just May.

No, you're right. My comment was more like a small joke to his presidential campaign, since (IIRC) he promised to end the fight against Bin Laden & Co.

Q
05-02-2011, 08:35 AM
Oh dang, I always imagined bumping into him somewhere and getting the bounty. I'd rather have him alive than dead.
It's actually much simpler and cleaner this way. No opportunity for him to grandstand and attention-whore during the media circus that his trial would become.

I also like that they took him out the old-fashioned way, with a bullet to the head in a firefight, instead of with a missile from a drone. If I were him, I'd want to go down swinging like that, too, so it actually worked out well for both sides, IMO.

jrrtoken
05-02-2011, 08:39 AM
http://www.lucasforums.com/picture.php?albumid=742&pictureid=8120

I have to admit, I thought this was pretty much an April Fool's joke; but after a while it was pretty disarming that this actually happened. Honestly, I'd thought that he'd just end up like Jimmy Hoffa in a netherworld of eternal obscurity. P. cool.

Though, I have to admit, most of the images of Americans celebrating gives off a really overly-jingoistic vibe. Unfortunately, it reinforces the stereotype of Americans as debased, aggressive (DEY DOOK ER JOBS) ignoramuses. I guess you can just say "Well, they're New Yorkers", but whatever.

I think the burial at sea was to avoid some kind of extremist shrine if he were buried, or left in the hands of his family. Throw him in the sea, a drop in the Ocean... I think the Muslim tradition part is the "Disposal within 24 hours" rather than the Method, which could of course just be public relations or coincidence, rather than respect for the body.Pretty much; it's as much a Muslim tradition as cremation is a Hindu one. Really, most Muslims are good ol' fashioned, buried-in-the-ground; there's nothing particularly exclusively Muslim (read: exotic paganism) about it.

mimartin
05-02-2011, 09:18 AM
Though, I have to admit, most of the images of Americans celebrating gives off a really overly-jingoistic vibe. Unfortunately, it reinforces the stereotype of Americans as debased, aggressive (DEY DOOK ER JOBS) ignoramuses. I guess you can just say "Well, they're New Yorkers", but whatever.Kind of puts Americans on the same level of those that took to the street celebrating 9/11/2001. Only Bin Ladin was the aggressor that started it.

I’ll admit celebrating a death, any death irks me, but celebrating the death of what Bin Ladin has come to symbolize is understandable in my opinion.
Thanks. I'd just recommend adding intelligence agencies to that list.
Very true! Could even add the politicians to the list for at last letting the intelligence agencies and military define the information gathered instead of the politicians putting their own spin on it and having the military invade Fiji.

Mandalorian Knight
05-02-2011, 11:27 AM
As an Army guy, I'm jealous of the SEALs that got to pull this off. Congrats to them though, those DEVGRU guys don't mess around.

It'll be interesting to see how this affects Al Queada (sorry about the spelling). I think that the best we can hope for is for them to splinter and begin infighting. Still dangerous, but their capability to plan an execute attacks would be significantly diminished.

Primogen
05-02-2011, 02:44 PM
If it were anyone else, I'd agree with the sentiment that celebrating is a little messed up. But this is Osama Bin Laden - public enemy #1. With him dead, the world has a little bit less of a cause to be fearful. And I hope it's the beginning of the end for the people of the United States and our fellow nations having to be afraid every time they go into an airport or train stations.

Liverandbacon
05-02-2011, 04:51 PM
I think the burial at sea was to avoid some kind of extremist shrine if he were buried, or left in the hands of his family. Throw him in the sea, a drop in the Ocean... I think the Muslim tradition part is the "Disposal within 24 hours" rather than the Method, which could of course just be public relations or coincidence, rather than respect for the body.

No, it's the method too. Prayers were recited, the body was washed and wrapped in cloth, etc. It'd be just as impossible to turn his body into a shrine if he was wrapped in a pigskin and fed to starving hogs, or even just wrapped and burned, or dumped into the ocean without ceremony. Public relations for who? The people who think he deserves dignity? We shouldn't pander to that sort of person.

It's one last finger given to the extremists - we terminated our enemy, and now we're treating him with -respect-. Just one more sign that we're better than them in every way that matters.

We have enough of those 'signs'. Anyone who doesn't see who's better isn't going to change their mind.

Obama just assured his re-election.

Although he had little to nothing to do with this, other than signing a piece of paper he was presented with. What president wouldn't sign that particular order? The number of people talking about this as proof of how great Obama is, and how clearly Democrats get things done, pisses me off. No political figure deserves any credit for this, left or right.

Though, I have to admit, most of the images of Americans celebrating gives off a really overly-jingoistic vibe. Unfortunately, it reinforces the stereotype of Americans as debased, aggressive (DEY DOOK ER JOBS) ignoramuses. I guess you can just say "Well, they're New Yorkers", but whatever.

Kind of puts Americans on the same level of those that took to the street celebrating 9/11/2001.

If someone can't see how celebrating the groundless murder of thousands of innocents is entirely different from celebrating the killing of a man responsible for the deaths of thousands, who wanted to kill more, and had become a symbol to like-minded individuals, they're beyond help.

Osama killed thousands of my countrymen. This included family friends and almost my own father. He attacked my country without provocation. He was a symbol to those who have tried to kill me, and killed many of my friends over the last 10 years. He gloated about all this, and wanted to attack again. He very likely could have. If celebrating his death makes me overly jingoistic, debased, aggressive, racist, and ignorant, those words must have changed their definition since I last checked. The truly ignorant thing is criticizing people for celebrating the death of the man who wanted to kill them, did all of this, and planned to do more.

Very true! Could even add the politicians to the list for at last letting the intelligence agencies and military define the information gathered instead of the politicians putting their own spin on it and having the military invade Fiji.

I'm hesitant to praise politicians just for being less incompetent and arrogant than they ordinarily are. Congress' attempts to hamstring the US intelligence community over the past 40 years or so, as a power grab in the endless tug of war between the branches of government, have been over the top and shameful. The fact that politicians backing off a little for one mission is seen as them being generous illustrates how institutionalized this crippling has become. I'll stop here, to avoid getting too off topic and going off on a rant about the many flaws in Congressional oversight.

As an Army guy, I'm jealous of the SEALs that got to pull this off. Congrats to them though, those DEVGRU guys don't mess around.

It'll be interesting to see how this affects Al Queada (sorry about the spelling). I think that the best we can hope for is for them to splinter and begin infighting. Still dangerous, but their capability to plan an execute attacks would be significantly diminished.

One thing you'll learn: The media always gives the SEALs credit. I really have no clue why, but according to the news, there've been things I've participated in that were apparently done by the SEALs, not the 75th or anything else I've been involved with. That's news to me. However, considering the info that it was a joint CIA + SEAL attack is coming from the government in this case, it's actually accurate. No hate here for the SEALs, they're excellent warriors, just bemusement at their higher media profile.

I'd say infighting is unlikely, as is any kind of disintegration. Osama was in hiding, and his influence on AQ's day to day operation was very limited. The people who have been actually leading AQ for quite a while now are still around. Honestly, I almost prefer that to a bunch of splinter groups, since the more well known a terrorist group is, the harder it is for them to put any plans into action without information about them getting to us.

Astor
05-02-2011, 05:24 PM
I don't personally understand celebrating Bin Laden's death. He ceased to have much importance a while ago, even if he did remain an important symbol for AQ. That said, though, I'm not an American, and nothing he's done has really affected me in any meaningful way.

I'm more interested now in how Pakistan's Government and Security Forces answer some pretty serious questions.

mimartin
05-02-2011, 05:57 PM
If someone can't see how celebrating the groundless murder of thousands of innocents is entirely different from celebrating the killing of a man responsible for the deaths of thousands, who wanted to kill more, and had become a symbol to like-minded individuals, they're beyond help.Let's look at the rest of what I wrote in that same post....;) I guess it has just become a habit in Kavar's to quote a line and ignore the rest of what someone wrote. Which is the reason I'm done posting in Kavars. Only this topic lead me to believe this thread would be safe. For what it is worth, like I wrote above I understand people celebrating.

Liverandbacon
05-02-2011, 06:13 PM
Let's look at the rest of what I wrote in that same post....;) I guess it has just become a habit in Kavar's to quote a line and ignore the rest of what someone wrote. Which is the reason I'm done posting in Kavars. Only this topic lead me to believe this thread would be safe. For what it is worth, like I wrote above I understand people celebrating.

I was mainly objecting to PastramiX's post. TBH your post just confused me because you said it was understandable, yet you also said it put our citizens on the same level as the enemy. I wasn't really sure which you saw as the primary point, the sort of thing that would be easier to interpret if I knew the 'tone of voice' that you were typing each part with, sadly impossible to communicate with text.

I try to avoid taking things out of context (which I agree is done far too often here), but I really didn't know how to make sense of two seemingly contradictory points you were making. TBH, I still can't figure out whether you understand it but think it puts them on the same level, or understand it but see why some people might think it puts them on the same level (subtly but importantly different). It's my fault for not making my confusion clearer.

I'm sorry that this misunderstanding has contributed to your decision to stop posting in Kavar's. For what it's worth, I valued your posts, because although we didn't always agree (didn't always disagree either), you tended to argue your points in a rational manner, using real evidence, and not just baseless 'you're wrong because you're wrong' opinions.

Lord of Hunger
05-02-2011, 06:34 PM
I don't personally understand celebrating Bin Laden's death. He ceased to have much importance a while ago, even if he did remain an important symbol for AQ. That said, though, I'm not an American, and nothing he's done has really affected me in any meaningful way.
In the USA, symbolism is a big deal. Americans on average have most of their basic material needs assured (relative to the third world at least), so we tend to get excited about things that are often purely emotional. It's why we have a lot of religious and spiritual individuals in spite of our consumerist culture, for example. We know water is going to come out of the tap, so we make sure the flag is safe instead. It's also why we sue each other for the most trivial reasons. :D

Yeah, symbolism is everything here in the US. Bin Laden may not have any strategic value in the war on terror, but we'll still feel really good from the closure provided by the SEAL that put a bullet in his head.

SITH LORD 872
05-02-2011, 07:11 PM
I hope he has fun swimming with the fishes, However in my opinion it doesn't justify the thousands of innocent lives lost, 9/11 should have never happened.

But we still need to stay focused, and our minds sharp, where there is one trying to cause death and suffering there is another, That could do far more damage!!

VeniVidiVicous
05-02-2011, 08:02 PM
But we still need to stay focused, and our minds sharp, where there is one trying to cause death and suffering there is another, That could do far more damage!!

So the US should maintain their aggressive foreign policies incase someone (somewhere) may try to do "damage"?

You realise this habit the US has of involving itself in all the worlds affairs is the reason why it's such a hated country right?

mimartin
05-02-2011, 08:13 PM
, yet you also said it put our citizens on the same level as the enemyBecause I don't see all the Muslims dancing in the streets after 9/11/2001 as our enemy. I can see the reasons some of them were happy to see bad things happen to us beyond them being our enemy. I did not like it, but I could understand it.

Also no problem Liverandbacon, you have nothing to do with my limiting my exposure to Kavars in the furture. You just hit upon the reason.

On slightly unrelated question: Is it proper to wave a nations flag (the USA in the case) back and forth as hard as you can? Like cheerleader would a school flag at a football game. Saw a few people doing it last night and I kind of felt the same way I do when I see someone burn the American flag. I can accept it, but I don't like it.

Mandalorian Knight
05-02-2011, 08:14 PM
One thing you'll learn: The media always gives the SEALs credit. I really have no clue why, but according to the news, there've been things I've participated in that were apparently done by the SEALs, not the 75th or anything else I've been involved with. That's news to me. However, considering the info that it was a joint CIA + SEAL attack is coming from the government in this case, it's actually accurate. No hate here for the SEALs, they're excellent warriors, just bemusement at their higher media profile.

I'd say infighting is unlikely, as is any kind of disintegration. Osama was in hiding, and his influence on AQ's day to day operation was very limited. The people who have been actually leading AQ for quite a while now are still around. Honestly, I almost prefer that to a bunch of splinter groups, since the more well known a terrorist group is, the harder it is for them to put any plans into action without information about them getting to us.

Good point. I may have underestimated the integrity of their chain command; but at the same time I feel like infighting is a possibility. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the majority of AQ leadership under Bin Laden Saudi? Isn't there a possibility that another group would seize power?

I'm still in college with an ROTC scholarship, so I have limited experience, but everything I've read from sources on the ground makes it seem like it was a hassle to make all the factions (the various tribes, ethnicities, nationalities, etc.) in AQ work together.

Also, wouldn't infighting give us some advantage? True, we'd have less actionable intelligence, but wouldn't the overall weakening of our enemy be advantageous?

Slightly off topic: 75th would be Rangers, correct? They won't let me go to Ranger School until I graduate :P

Blix
05-02-2011, 08:29 PM
*Wonders how long it will take for people to demand to see a death certificate...

mimartin
05-02-2011, 08:36 PM
*Wonders how long it will take for people to demand to see a death certificate...

I'll only accept the long form death certificate. :xp:

GeneralPloKoon
05-02-2011, 08:46 PM
Sure the guy was a bad man, but it is puzzling to me seeing everyone(or at least many Americans) celebrating the death of a fellow human being. I mean it makes people look like death is a good thing, I dunno...I suppose to many people affected by 9/11 it is some relief. But to everyone else....I dunno I will shut up now. :p

Mandalorian Knight
05-02-2011, 08:52 PM
Sure the guy was a bad man, but it is puzzling to me seeing everyone(or at least many Americans) celebrating the death of a fellow human being. I mean it makes people look like death is a good thing, I dunno...I suppose to many people affected by 9/11 it is some relief. But to everyone else....I dunno I will shut up now. :p

It isn't a celebration of the death of some random guy. It's celebrating the death of someone who orchestrated multiple terrorist attacks that resulted in the deaths of thousands of innocent people; and who would have killed many more if he had the capability. Its different. Celebrating the death of someone who has been responsible for the death of my countryman and who would have killed me if he had the chance is not, in my opinion, morally wrong in any way.

jrrtoken
05-02-2011, 08:57 PM
If someone can't see how celebrating the groundless murder of thousands of innocents is entirely different from celebrating the killing of a man responsible for the deaths of thousands, who wanted to kill more, and had become a symbol to like-minded individuals, they're beyond help.I wasn't drawing any correlation between the supposed jubilation of "Muslims" on 9/11 with what was experienced today, simply because the situation is incomparable. Quite frankly, there isn't much reason to celebrate here, as irrespective of bin Laden's death, there still remains a considerable threat; a threat that during the manhunt for bin Laden has probably increased to a new level of prominence. Even with the figurehead toppled, there's still the fragmentary cells that will follow the power vacuum, as well as the semi-independent al-Qaeda offshoots that have been operating without direct administration from bin Laden prior to his passing. Quite frankly, it's as monumental as the execution of Saddam Hussein (i.e. of petty consequence).If celebrating his death makes me overly jingoistic, debased, aggressive, racist, and ignorant, those words must have changed their definition since I last checked.I never claimed any of that; I was just saying that the celebrations could be perceived simply as such. One could compare it to the foolhardiness of "Mission Accomplished", in that it's a gross mischaracterization of a "victory".The truly ignorant thing is criticizing people for celebrating the death of the man who wanted to kill them, did all of this, and planned to do more.As I've pointed out, I'm criticizing the fanfare that has been made by some; the insistence that this is a game-changing, tide-turning victory in the War on Terror. The resignation of Mubarak is in many ways more celebratory in terms of against-the-odds, "the bigger they are, the mightier they fall" circumstances that makes this incident seem more like the execution of an obscure ideologue who has little absolute authority to make a tremendous difference.

Tommycat
05-02-2011, 09:38 PM
It's called closure. To many this is all the closure they needed. It's a relief to know that we finally got him. Sure, he was more a figurehead or whatever, but it feels good to those who lost loved ones on 9/11. To some extent, it was what people criticized Bush for. "We didn't get Bin Laden, but we got 5 of his second in commands." So here we have the top man. Now the next time we take out one of Bin Laden's second in commands, we actually take out the leader. It's also a psychological boost. Bin Laden is the name we know. It's the name the world knows.

Totenkopf
05-02-2011, 09:52 PM
I wasn't drawing any correlation between the supposed jubilation of "Muslims" on 9/11 with what was experienced today, simply because the situation is incomparable.

So, those people in the "arab street" who were unmistakably jubilant about the Towers attack weren't muslims?


Quite frankly, there isn't much reason to celebrate here, as irrespective of bin Laden's death, there still remains a considerable threat; a threat that during the manhunt for bin Laden has probably increased to a new level of prominence. Even with the figurehead toppled, there's still the fragmentary cells that will follow the power vacuum, as well as the semi-independent al-Qaeda offshoots that have been operating without direct administration from bin Laden prior to his passing. Quite frankly, it's as monumental as the execution of Saddam Hussein (i.e. of petty consequence).

Depending on how one spins the meaning of "celebrate", it is noteworthy in and of itself b/c he was such an important figure to jihadis in general. However, I'd agree that it is premature to say "well, now that we've bagged bin laden, let's call it a day". Will be interesting to see just how much info about AQ and affiliates is gleaned from the intelligence cache they got on this mission


As I've pointed out, I'm criticizing the fanfare that has been made by some; the insistence that this is a game-changing, tide-turning victory in the War on Terror. The resignation of Mubarak is in many ways more celebratory in terms of against-the-odds, "the bigger they are, the mightier they fall" circumstances that makes this incident seem more like the execution of an obscure ideologue who has little absolute authority to make a tremendous difference.

It is game changing, not game ending. Sort of a "you can run, but you can't hide" to terrorists worldwide. Still, unseating Mubarak, will likely prove more destabilizing than OBL's death. Two words: Muslim Brotherhood (and no, they are a legitimate concern, not some toothless boogeyman).

SITH LORD 872
05-02-2011, 10:26 PM
He had no regard for human life, He even used children for target practice, He started this war to see us Americans cower in fear, Did it work NO!!, I'm am very proud to be American do i believe in violence and death no, However when someone comes to my country and kills with no remorse or regard for human life, yes i have a problem, I come from a very good family, I was born and raised Catholic. I hold my morales and values with a lot of pride.

Am i glad he's gone yes, However i never said it was ok to take a life from someone, I really wished this war never started and i wish that there could have been a peaceful situation.

We did what had to be done to prevent another 9/11, Some may agree or disagree with how i feel, But i have a lot of friends from different country's, Just because someone is from the same country as him, Doesn't make them terrorist, Even after 9/11 i never looked at other people the way some did. I admit we don't all ways think before we react, There are a lot of good people in this world, it's too bad that some try to make others look bad!!

jrrtoken
05-02-2011, 11:02 PM
So, those people in the "arab street" who were unmistakably jubilant about the Towers attack weren't muslims?I was referring to the coverage that depicted "Muslims celebrating 9/11" was simply that; "Muslims celebrating 9/11". The connotation that was displayed when media showed those scenes is that "Muslims" includes Muslims anywhere and everywhere, and that they are all are jubilant at the mass murder of Americans. My quotes weren't a question of self-identity and faith vis-a-vis questionable ethics, but rather a criticism of the overgeneralization and homogenization of Muslim-majority societies that was present in the scenes of 9/11-fest. Anything else is simply reading too much into it, frankly.It is game changing, not game ending. Sort of a "you can run, but you can't hide" to terrorists worldwide. Still, unseating Mubarak, will likely prove more destabilizing than OBL's death. Two words: Muslim Brotherhood (and no, they are a legitimate concern, not some toothless boogeyman).I wasn't really making a correlation between a rise of radical Islamism and the downfall of Mubarak, but rather illustrating the point that bin Laden's death isn't the ragtag Rebel Alliance taking down the expansive Galactic Empire here; hell, someone can probably argue that it's the opposite. :D My point was that it's hardly some grand triumph of good over evil with insurmountable odds factored in; it's more like a cat catching a mouse. I sure don't like vermin in my house any day, but it's not like the cat took on a pack of wolves here: it's just a goddamn mouse, even if it is a big one.

The Doctor
05-02-2011, 11:49 PM
http://artoftrolling.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/chatroulette-trolling-osama-bin-trolling.jpg

Liverandbacon
05-02-2011, 11:52 PM
Good point. I may have underestimated the integrity of their chain command; but at the same time I feel like infighting is a possibility. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the majority of AQ leadership under Bin Laden Saudi? Isn't there a possibility that another group would seize power?

I'm still in college with an ROTC scholarship, so I have limited experience, but everything I've read from sources on the ground makes it seem like it was a hassle to make all the factions (the various tribes, ethnicities, nationalities, etc.) in AQ work together.

Also, wouldn't infighting give us some advantage? True, we'd have less actionable intelligence, but wouldn't the overall weakening of our enemy be advantageous?

This is true to a certain extent. Whether or not infighting or ordinary splintering would help or hinder our side depends largely on amount. For instance, very significant infighting would be helpful, while more minor infighting wouldn't be enough to counterbalance the problems splintering would cause us. I just suspect that due to Osama's significantly reduced role in the organization, any such changes won't be very large, since most have already occurred. The main change I can see would be the Pakistan branch receding in importance a bit, as the Yemen branch continues to grow in importance.

I wasn't drawing any correlation between the supposed jubilation of "Muslims" on 9/11 with what was experienced today, simply because the situation is incomparable. Quite frankly, there isn't much reason to celebrate here, as irrespective of bin Laden's death, there still remains a considerable threat; a threat that during the manhunt for bin Laden has probably increased to a new level of prominence. Even with the figurehead toppled, there's still the fragmentary cells that will follow the power vacuum, as well as the semi-independent al-Qaeda offshoots that have been operating without direct administration from bin Laden prior to his passing. Quite frankly, it's as monumental as the execution of Saddam Hussein (i.e. of petty consequence).I never claimed any of that; I was just saying that the celebrations could be perceived simply as such. One could compare it to the foolhardiness of "Mission Accomplished", in that it's a gross mischaracterization of a "victory".As I've pointed out, I'm criticizing the fanfare that has been made by some; the insistence that this is a game-changing, tide-turning victory in the War on Terror. The resignation of Mubarak is in many ways more celebratory in terms of against-the-odds, "the bigger they are, the mightier they fall" circumstances that makes this incident seem more like the execution of an obscure ideologue who has little absolute authority to make a tremendous difference.

We're actually in agreement that anyone who sees this as anything more than a symbolic victory is being way overoptimistic. I'm still not sure where 'violent', 'debased', and 'overly jingoistic' come into that, but I guess I just misinterpreted you or something.

SITH LORD 872
05-03-2011, 12:52 AM
Sure the guy was a bad man, but it is puzzling to me seeing everyone(or at least many Americans) celebrating the death of a fellow human being. I mean it makes people look like death is a good thing, I dunno...I suppose to many people affected by 9/11 it is some relief. But to everyone else....I dunno I will shut up now. :p

Death is never a solution, You're right about your statement, And yes many were celebrating, What bothers me the most with some peoples attitudes or statements is, America was not the only country hurt by 9/11, that's why we called it the WORLD TRADE CENTER, meaning that all races and religion's were affected by this event, Meaning that all races worked in the same buildings and offices together.

He was clearly a mad man, and evil in it's purest form, He was given the choice of surrender and denied that option, I really wish we could all wish upon a star and wish away war, violence, and hatred, But clearly that is living in a fantasy world, We alll live int his world together, Hopefully someday we can all live in Peace with out violence!

Totenkopf
05-03-2011, 12:54 AM
I was referring to the coverage that depicted "Muslims celebrating 9/11" was simply that; "Muslims celebrating 9/11". The connotation that was displayed when media showed those scenes is that "Muslims" includes Muslims anywhere and everywhere, and that they are all are jubilant at the mass murder of Americans. My quotes weren't a question of self-identity and faith vis-a-vis questionable ethics, but rather a criticism of the overgeneralization and homogenization of Muslim-majority societies that was present in the scenes of 9/11-fest. Anything else is simply reading too much into it, frankly.

That's fine. Wasn't initially sure what you're point was, but agree that oversimplification only tends to muddy the picture. Given that muslims border on 20+/- % of global population, I never took those pics to really be anything more than anti-American arab-muslims or radicalized muslims outside the ME.



I wasn't really making a correlation between a rise of radical Islamism and the downfall of Mubarak, but rather illustrating the point that bin Laden's death isn't the ragtag Rebel Alliance taking down the expansive Galactic Empire here; hell, someone can probably argue that it's the opposite. :D My point was that it's hardly some grand triumph of good over evil with insurmountable odds factored in; it's more like a cat catching a mouse. I sure don't like vermin in my house any day, but it's not like the cat took on a pack of wolves here: it's just a goddamn mouse, even if it is a big one.

No, I understood the basic analogy in terms of power imbalance between OBL vs the US and protestors vs an autocratic govt. Just didn't buy the Egyptian "revolution" to be something to really celebrate b/c I think that the MB will eclipse the "secular" forces that wanted to remove HM and replace him with a more "democratic" regime. I'd agree that taking OBL out, while necessary, was just one more operation in a long war with no real end in sight.

SITH LORD 872
05-03-2011, 12:57 AM
That's fine. Wasn't initially sure what you're point was, but agree that oversimplification only tends to muddy the picture. Given that muslims border on 20+/- % of global population, I never took those pics to really be anything more than anti-American arab-muslims or radicalized muslims outside the ME.




No, I understood the basic analogy in terms of power imbalance between OBL vs the US and protestors vs an autocratic govt. Just didn't buy the Egyptian "revolution" to be something to really celebrate b/c I think that the MB will eclipse the "secular" forces that wanted to remove HM and replace him with a more "democratic" regime. I'd agree that taking OBL out, while necessary, was just one more operation in a long war with no real end in sight.

Meaning this war is another Vietnam, Lives lost with no real directive!

Liverandbacon
05-03-2011, 02:09 AM
Meaning this war is another Vietnam, Lives lost with no real directive!

No.

Rabish Bini
05-03-2011, 02:53 AM
I love the picture of Americans celebrating, where this guy in the background is holding up a sign saying: 'Obama 1 - 0 Osama'

That is all I have to say on this topic

Lynk Former
05-03-2011, 04:00 AM
....................I don't like this place and try not to come in here... but I have to ask.

Why did they go in and kill him instead of capturing him? I know a lot of people see this as "justice" but since I'm Australian and we don't have a death penalty here... it doesn't seem like "justice" to me...

Mandalorian Knight
05-03-2011, 04:15 AM
Meaning this war is another Vietnam, Lives lost with no real directive!

That really isn't an accurate statement for several reasons. First, the nature of our enemy is different. AQ is a multi ethnic and multinational force; the VC and NVA were Vietnamese. Some of the tactics are similar, but the motivation behind each group is different. The VC were fighting because (depending on who you ask) they wanted to unify or free their country. AQ, however, is an international terrorist group. The motivations differ widely upon joining, from anger at western interference (real or perceived) to religious fundamentalists who are just following the orders of their religious leaders. Some would argue that the US didn't have a clear objective upon entering Vietnam, we have clear objectives for each of current fights, including Afghanistan, Iraq (it varies depending on who you ask), and the international pursuit of terrorists.

We have had over 30 years to analyze Vietnam. I feel like we've learned from the mistakes. This isn't a conventional war; there aren't many huge straight up battles to show to the media and boost public opinion. Operations like the one that killed Bin Laden are a key part of this war; the only reason we know about this one is because he is such a symbol.

There are a few parallels, but it's important to draw distinctions.

Taak Farst
05-03-2011, 07:35 AM
I have never believed that Al Qaeda exists, nor have I ever believed Bin Laden was their leader. However that's a big arguement I could write essays on, but this isn't about 9/11 or anything, it's about the death of Bin Laden. But let's look at this a minute;

Us british have just had the Royal Wedding, taking the attention off of the Americans, which, as much as I hate to admit it, because I despise America as a whole, is THE power in the world at the moment.

Obama is up for re-election very soon, and this has no doubt given him a ton of popularity points.

So...it's managed to put the spotlight back on America AND grant Obama popularity++ right before the election. How convenient...

Astor
05-03-2011, 07:52 AM
Obama is up for re-election very soon, and this has no doubt given him a ton of popularity points.

So...it's managed to put the spotlight back on America AND grant Obama popularity++ right before the election. How convenient...

The next US Presidential elections aren't till November 2012. And as I mentioned earlier in this thread, a year and a half is a very long time regarding these things.

This year alone has seen two Middle East Governments fall, one in what I hope are it's death throes, and countless others scrambling to prevent that happening to them, and we've only just reached May.

And while I'm sure this will no doubt give Obama a popularity boost (and let's face it, he needed it), it will by no means make his re-election in 2012 a certainty.

EDIT: And I have to agree with Mim when it comes to the Royal Wedding (not the crap bit, though :p). It might have been a big event here, but it ranked pretty low on the agenda for the rest of the world.

mimartin
05-03-2011, 08:58 AM
I have never believed that Al Qaeda exists, nor have I ever believed Bin Laden was their leader.

Big surprises since you also do not believe in the moon landing.

The only thing surprising about the timing is the fact that they found him at all after almost 10 years. However, the reason it took so long is because the U.S. diverted resources in the wrong direction, Iraq and a “so-called” ally knew where Bin Laden was, but kept feeding the U.S. B.S. for intelligence.

Also no one was paying attention to the Royal Wedding, but the media. The rest of us were wearing out our remotes from having to change the channel every time that that crap came onto the air.

Why did they go in and kill him instead of capturing him? Bin Ladin and his people had guns too and was shooting back.

Sabretooth
05-03-2011, 09:41 AM
Why did they go in and kill him instead of capturing him? I know a lot of people see this as "justice" but since I'm Australian and we don't have a death penalty here... it doesn't seem like "justice" to me...

There seems to be a bit of a mix-up regarding the mission's objectives.

White House Homeland Security Adviser John O. Brennan stated after the raid that "If we had the opportunity to take bin Laden alive, if he didn't present any threat, the individuals involved were able and prepared to do that."

I guessing him so much as mock roaring would probably be interpreted a threat by the SEALs.

But there's two reports vouching for the 'kill order' statement. If I were a SEAL with a capture order though, I'd still "accidentally" headshot him. Just sayin'. :indif:

Taak Farst
05-03-2011, 10:27 AM
Big surprises since you also do not believe in the moon landing.


The Government are lying, corrupt, greedy bastards.

That's my opinion. I think I'm entitled to it. just as you are.

Sabretooth
05-03-2011, 10:33 AM
However, the reason it took so long is because the U.S. diverted recourses in the wrong direction, Iraq and a “so-called” ally knew where Bin Laden was, but kept the U.S. feeding the U.S. B.S. for intelligence.

I say they be punished with a $250 billion aid package. :carms:

Totenkopf
05-03-2011, 11:44 AM
Big surprises since you also do not believe in the moon landing.
too true.


The only thing surprising about the timing is the fact that they found him at all after almost 10 years. However, the reason it took so long is because the U.S. diverted recourses in the wrong direction, Iraq and a “so-called” ally knew where Bin Laden was, but kept the U.S. feeding the U.S. B.S. for intelligence.

Maybe, maybe not. The US has and had had enough overall resources to fight in Iraq and still do other things. Finding OBL has been a bit like finding Waldo. Didn't help that Pakistan was "hiding him in the open" like that and someone there didn't tell us.


Also no one was paying attention to the Royal Wedding, but the media. The rest of us were wearing out our remotes from having to change the channel every time that that crap came onto the air.

Yeah, tried to avoid that like the plague. Did catch a segment of SKY news where one of the people referenced Honk Kong Fooey w/regard to some other story. Kind of funny.


Bin Ladin and his people had guns too and was shooting back.

I guess that's an inconvenient fact, mim. Never figured the guy would allow himself to be taken alive if he could avoid it anyway.

I guessing him so much as mock roaring would probably be interpreted a threat by the SEALs.

But there's two reports vouching for the 'kill order' statement. If I were a SEAL with a capture order though, I'd still "accidentally" headshot him. Just sayin'.

I'm sure the SEALs know the diff, but don't doubt that there are some that might feel the way you're saying.

mimartin
05-03-2011, 11:45 AM
The Government are lying, corrupt, greedy bastards.

That's my opinion. I think I'm entitled to it. just as you are. I've never said you were not entitled to your opinion. :confused: I can kind of agree with your statement above, but I just would rather look at facts rather than opinions. Even lairs tell the truth once in awhile.

Personally I don’t see how justice could be served no matter the outcome. Capturing Osama alive was not going to bring back any of the victims. I also can’t see asking a soldiers risk themselves further to capture Bin Laden alive just so we can have media spectacle of a trial for the next five or so years. A bullet to the brain and sparing the victims’ families from having to relive 09/11/2001 over and over seems to me the best thing. No it isn’t justice, but I’m of the opinion that justice is a made up concept. The best anyone could ask for in the case is giving the family a little closure.

Mandalorian Knight
05-03-2011, 01:50 PM
Why did they go in and kill him instead of capturing him? I know a lot of people see this as "justice" but since I'm Australian and we don't have a death penalty here... it doesn't seem like "justice" to me...

It may not be official policy, but unofficially the word has been to shoot to kill. There is a book called "Kill Bin Laden: A Delta Force Commander's Account of the Hunt for the World's Most Wanted Man" that is about hunting him in Tora Bora in 2004. He says he was told by command to kill him if they found him. I think the reasoning behind that has to do with avoiding a media spectacle of a trial and the morale boost it would give to a large number of Americans (as seen on the news).

As far as justice goes, I can understand an aversion to the death penalty when dealing with a murder or homicide. However, Bin Laden planned multiple terrorist operations as well as calling for attacks on the United States. Capital punishment may not be the answer to the man who stabbed his wife in a fit of anger, but Bin Laden was responsible, either directly or indirectly, for the death of thousands.
This is the wrong thread to bring up a debate about capital punishment, so I won't say anymore. I'm just trying to explain how some people see it as justice.

Tommycat
05-03-2011, 02:23 PM
From what I understand, they gave him the opportunity to surrender. That was when he grabbed a woman as a shield. BOOM! HEADSHOT!

Sabretooth
05-03-2011, 02:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxnx-YypfbM

Totenkopf
05-03-2011, 02:59 PM
Talk about a fatal case of Stockholm syndrome. :D

Mandalorian Knight
05-03-2011, 03:41 PM
From what I understand, they gave him the opportunity to surrender. That was when he grabbed a woman as a shield. BOOM! HEADSHOT!

I had read that one of the targets used a woman as a shield; that's why there was one civilian casualty. I didn't see anything about Osama grabbing a shield, though. I doubt that anyone except for the SEALs clearing his room knows the exact circumstances, so I will concede that is a possibility. That being said, I believe that they were ordered not to take him alive and that reports to the contrary are just attempting to save political face. That's just my belief though, I'm only going off of what I read in the book.

I will say that I've seen it reported that he was killed by a double-tap. Which would be more along the lines of BOOMBOOM! ;)

SITH LORD 872
05-03-2011, 03:49 PM
That really isn't an accurate statement for several reasons. First, the nature of our enemy is different. AQ is a multi ethnic and multinational force; the VC and NVA were Vietnamese. Some of the tactics are similar, but the motivation behind each group is different. The VC were fighting because (depending on who you ask) they wanted to unify or free their country. AQ, however, is an international terrorist group. The motivations differ widely upon joining, from anger at western interference (real or perceived) to religious fundamentalists who are just following the orders of their religious leaders. Some would argue that the US didn't have a clear objective upon entering Vietnam, we have clear objectives for each of current fights, including Afghanistan, Iraq (it varies depending on who you ask), and the international pursuit of terrorists.

We have had over 30 years to analyze Vietnam. I feel like we've learned from the mistakes. This isn't a conventional war; there aren't many huge straight up battles to show to the media and boost public opinion. Operations like the one that killed Bin Laden are a key part of this war; the only reason we know about this one is because he is such a symbol.

There are a few parallels, but it's important to draw distinctions.

I shouldn't have said it was exactly like Vietnam but in some ways it feels like it, Like i have said yes I'm glad he's been removed, How ever i wished there could have been a better solution, I came on these forums to meet new people, But since this i have only realized that there are a lot of people that come on here and say how they hate us, I don't know what to think, I may be from America in witch I'm very proud to be, Doesn't mean i all ways believe in our ideals, or actions when it comes to these sort of things!!:confused:

Lynk Former
05-03-2011, 04:25 PM
It may not be official policy, but unofficially the word has been to shoot to kill. There is a book called "Kill Bin Laden: A Delta Force Commander's Account of the Hunt for the World's Most Wanted Man" that is about hunting him in Tora Bora in 2004. He says he was told by command to kill him if they found him. I think the reasoning behind that has to do with avoiding a media spectacle of a trial and the morale boost it would give to a large number of Americans (as seen on the news).

As far as justice goes, I can understand an aversion to the death penalty when dealing with a murder or homicide. However, Bin Laden planned multiple terrorist operations as well as calling for attacks on the United States. Capital punishment may not be the answer to the man who stabbed his wife in a fit of anger, but Bin Laden was responsible, either directly or indirectly, for the death of thousands.
This is the wrong thread to bring up a debate about capital punishment, so I won't say anymore. I'm just trying to explain how some people see it as justice.
But it's revenge, not justice. That's the thing... people are saying this is justice but what it really is is revenge when it really comes down to it.

Also he never planned those attacks. It was a bunch of Egyptian and Saudi dudes in their own separate cell(s). Bin Laden has only ever really been a figurehead for the organisation. Whatever happened during 9/11 was masterminded by a group who were part of the greater terrorist organisation but people make it seem like Bin Laden picked up a red phone, called the guys who carried out the attack and said "you have a go" like you see in the movies with a US President doing something similar.


From what I understand, they gave him the opportunity to surrender. That was when he grabbed a woman as a shield. BOOM! HEADSHOT!
Except it didn't happen like that. It was thought that's how it happened, but new info was released that says that never happened. One of his wives actually rushed the soldiers and they shot her in the leg. Bin Laden himself wasn't armed with anything.




Actually, I'm stopping here, this'll be my last post in here.

I can understand why things ended up the way they did and why people feel the way they do. But to me, what happened was a revenge killing. I guess that's what really gets to me the most in a more general sense. In a lot of situations people still feel that if a certain person dies, they'll feel better.

Mandalorian Knight
05-03-2011, 04:55 PM
My personal interpretation is that it was motivated by politics and not justice. Regardless, it's done now.
And from what I understand, Bin Laden was the overall leader of AQ. While he may not have personally given the go-ahead for a different cell, as the leader he has been held accountable for the actions undertaken by his organization. I'm trying to observe this on a strategic level, but it is clear that isn't the case for everyone. You make a good point regarding people's feeling of catharsis (weather real or perceived).

And I'm sorry to hear that you won't post again. However, given Kavar's reputation, I understand your decision.

mimartin
05-03-2011, 05:11 PM
Like I wrote earlier, I don’t agree with the celebration, but I can understand it. Since 2001, the United States taxpayers have spent over 1,189,087,400,000 on wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Of that the U.S. has spent more than $400,902,500,000 in Afghanistan alone. More importantly the U.S. has lost 6018 military personal in both Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention how many more that have been wounded. We were told that Bin Ladin was the mastermind behind the attacks of 9/11/2001 by our leaders and his capture/death was the our #1 priority (of course these were the same leaders that said Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was working with Al –Qadea). So after almost ten years, over 1,189,087,000 dollars and 6018 lives, I hope you can understand our frustration over not being able to locate this one man. That is why I can understand the celebrations; to me it was more like a huge weight had been taken off this nation shoulders. It wasn’t ding-dong the witch is dead; it was more like we finally after almost 10 years have achieved our goal.


And I'm sorry to hear that you won't post again. However, given Kavar's reputation, I understand your decision.Don’t encourage him. ;)

Tommycat
05-03-2011, 06:52 PM
Personally, I'm less happy about his death than I am about all of the juicy intel they will get from all that hardware. Multiple computers that OBL couldn't have wiped in time...

SITH LORD 872
05-03-2011, 07:09 PM
Like I wrote earlier, I don’t agree with the celebration, but I can understand it. Since 2001, the United States taxpayers have spent over 1,189,087,400,000 on wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Of that the U.S. has spent more than $400,902,500,000 in Afghanistan alone. More importantly the U.S. has lost 6018 military personal in both Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention how many more that have been wounded. We were told that Bin Ladin was the mastermind behind the attacks of 9/11/2001 by our leaders and his capture/death was the our #1 priority (of course these were the same leaders that said Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was working with Al –Qadea). So after almost ten years, over 1,189,087,000 dollars and 6018 lives, I hope you can understand our frustration over not being able to locate this one man. That is why I can understand the celebrations; to me it was more like a huge weight had been taken off this nation shoulders. It wasn’t ding-dong the witch is dead; it was more like we finally after almost 10 years we have achieved our goal.


Don’t encourage him. ;)

I fear for our future with the recent events that have taken place, I really do!!

Qui-Gon Glenn
05-03-2011, 08:16 PM
...because I despise America as a whole...Well, that's enlightening. Uncle Sam punch ya in the nose all the way across the Atlantic?
My question for you is, do you hate the country, the people, or both? I suppose that is better sent via PM, or ignored, depending on how willing you are to discuss that topic. Really though, I am not interested in changing your opinion, just trying to get a grasp of your POV.... which is a distinct one on many subjects

-------

Martyrdom is my only fear on OBL's death.

Shameful how the "celebration" turned out, but as mim said, kinda understandable, just as I kinda understood the jubilant crowds of arabs on 9/11/2001. People are people, regardless of faith or faction.

It would have been better to capture him, juice him for information, then execute him by court order. Not as good for ratings though....

mimartin
05-03-2011, 08:27 PM
Personally, I'm less happy about his death than I am about all of the juicy intel they will get from all that hardware. Multiple computers that OBL couldn't have wiped in time...

The computers were just filled with porn. :xp:

Sample
http://www.ihavenothing.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/burka1.jpg In Bin Ladin defense the women were wearing burkas.

Q
05-03-2011, 08:37 PM
I have never believed that Al Qaeda exists, nor have I ever believed Bin Laden was their leader. However that's a big arguement I could write essays on, but this isn't about 9/11 or anything, it's about the death of Bin Laden. But let's look at this a minute;
Who flew the airliners into the twin towers, then? The bogeyman?
Big surprises since you also do not believe in the moon landing.
LOL.
Us british have just had the Royal Wedding, taking the attention off of the Americans, which, as much as I hate to admit it, because I despise America as a whole, is THE power in the world at the moment.
What has given you cause to despise America? Did we pee on your toffee crisp, or something?
Obama is up for re-election very soon, and this has no doubt given him a ton of popularity points.

So...it's managed to put the spotlight back on America AND grant Obama popularity++ right before the election. How convenient...
Nope, he's up for reelection in a year and a half. In American politics, that's an eternity. Just ask Bush Sr. ;)
I say they be punished with a $250 billion aid package. :carms:
How about a full-scale invasion followed by several years of occupation to restore order and sow the seeds of democracy? We could use a hand. Wanna help? :devsmoke:

Salzella
05-03-2011, 09:25 PM
Am i the only one who doesn't really care? However much America may have turned him into the bogeyman, he was never more than a bogeyman, and one that in the last decade, i would be sceptical as the how much influence he really had. his reputation is wholly the west's making, and for all the terrible things he did, the triumphalism is frankly rather pathetic.

Totenkopf
05-03-2011, 09:27 PM
-------
It would have been better to capture him, juice him for information, then execute him by court order. Not as good for ratings though....

I think the guy they really want to wring for intel is Ayman al-Zawahri, who I recall being labeled one of the masterminds of AlQ. But I think TC is likely correct. The trove of info they got will likely be worth more than having gotten him alive. Still, ashame this admin is woefully less competent at handling the press on the "hit" than the SEALs that performed it.

Primogen
05-03-2011, 09:39 PM
Let's...let's not talk to Taak about his beliefs. I'd lay $5 he links to Loose Change next. I mean for the love of God, man. Apollo 11 was a hoax, okay, that I can...ignore, but Al-Qaeda doesn't exist? What next? The Taliban doesn't exist? The Soviet Union didn't exist? Nazi Germany didn't exist? Did the Thirty Years War actually take place? What about the War of 1812? The American Revolution? IS ANYTHING TRUE!? Aaaaaaaaagh!

SITH LORD 872
05-03-2011, 10:18 PM
Let's...let's not talk to Taak about his beliefs. I'd lay $5 he links to Loose Change next. I mean for the love of God, man. Apollo 11 was a hoax, okay, that I can...ignore, but Al-Qaeda doesn't exist? What next? The Taliban doesn't exist? The Soviet Union didn't exist? Nazi Germany didn't exist? Did the Thirty Years War actually take place? What about the War of 1812? The American Revolution? IS ANYTHING TRUE!? Aaaaaaaaagh!

Wow you sound like your head is going to explode!!

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
05-03-2011, 10:25 PM
I was musing: If you were a military operations planner and/or a government that has spent an extreme amount of resources in a war started by one man, wouldn't it be more logical to have a priority to take him alive if possible?

Now, doing so would cause an incredible amount of fanfare, and cause the very likely threat of retaliatory action in the form of reverse-hostage blackmail, as is characteristic of the enemy you face. So, it would make sense to have operation representatives to make a statement to the entire world that the target has been eliminated, as the gravity of such an action would generally rule out the possibility of untruth in the minds of most people.

A logical plan would be to order the ground soldiers to disable the target, and kill everyone around him, civilian or not (in order to not jeapardize the public report of the operation with conflicting information from civilians that were present). Then quickly extract the target with the utmost security and speed your 700 billion dollar military country can muster, to a specifically prepared political prison at a truly undisclosed location. There, it would make sense to interrogate the **** out of him, and then kill him.

Now, i'm not the conspiracy theorist type, and as i said, im just musing here (no one really has any evidence to dispute the claims of the US government concerning this) But, i mean, 400 billion dollars, and 6000 lives.. You'd think they'd wanna get more bang for their buck than an insta-kill bullet to the head...

Liverandbacon
05-03-2011, 11:38 PM
Finding Bin Laden was never the main goal of the GWOT. The money spent on the war in Afghanistan and Iraq cannot be called the cost of finding Bin Laden.

I have never believed that Al Qaeda exists, nor have I ever believed Bin Laden was their leader. However that's a big arguement I could write essays on

I can tell you with complete certainty, stemming from serious research and first-hand experience, that you are wrong. Their existence is very well documented.

Us british have just had the Royal Wedding, taking the attention off of the Americans, which, as much as I hate to admit it, because I despise America as a whole, is THE power in the world at the moment.

Obama is up for re-election very soon, and this has no doubt given him a ton of popularity points.

So...it's managed to put the spotlight back on America AND grant Obama popularity++ right before the election. How convenient...

As has already been pointed out, Obama isn't even past the 2/3 done mark on his presidency. That's far from 'right before the election'.

The insinuation that it's a move to put America back in the worlds spotlight is absurd for a few reasons:
1. The royal wedding didn't take attention away from the US to begin with. The only non-British people I've encountered who cared at all were a few Americans. Also, if the polls I've seen, and the feelings many of my friends from university have expressed, are at all representative, there's a large portion of the British population that didn't care either.
2. The US isn't a 15 year old girl, living and dying based on how much attention others give it. If anything, I suspect the country might prefer not to be in the spotlight, since that always comes hand in hand with whining from those outside it. Anyway, when all foreigners stop paying attention to/complaining about every little thing the US and/or its citizenry does, it'll be out of the world spotlight. You choose to put it there.

You might want to reconsider despising the US. If your hate is due to actions you perceive as morally wrong on this country's part, do a little digging and you'll find that there isn't a country in existence without some serious skeletons in the closet. I could go off on a very long tangent about how I think assigning moral values to nations is futile, and how such large bodies have no responsibility to anything but their citizens safety and well-being, but that would be very off topic.

The Government are lying, corrupt, greedy bastards.

That's my opinion. I think I'm entitled to it. just as you are.

Many (IMO the vast majority) politicians are lying, corrupt, and greedy. Some to a very minor degree, some to a huge one. However, the government is not only politicians. Technically, I'm part of 'The Government', and while I suppose I lie, I don't think of myself as corrupt, and my willingness to take a government job that pays far less than I could gain in the private sector with my degree and military experience hopefully demonstrates a certain lack of greed. Even if the entire government were greedy and corrupt liars, it still wouldn't lie in situations where either there's not enough benefit to them, or it's grossly impractical. Most of your theories are invalidated anyway, by indisputable facts, that came from nongovernmental sources.

You may be entitled to an opinion, but it doesn't mean it has the same value or credibility as another person's. I try to avoid internet snobbishness, but I'm going to need to lay things out here, even if it makes me sound like an arrogant dick. Your opinions on this subject come from an education up to the early High School level (unless you're a child prodigy, attending university at the age of 14, but that's pretty statistically improbable), along with whatever reading you've managed to find online and in libraries. My opinions on this subject come from the reading I've done online and in libraries, a PPE degree from a university consistently ranked as one of the best in the world, and 8 (and counting) years of work (military and otherwise) involving these issues and national defense/international relations as a whole. Admittedly, I come to this site to relax (I know, stupid me), so my arguments aren't quite as structured as they might be if I were doing this formally, but do not mistake casual language for lack of experience.

On something where we might have similar levels of experience, i.e. video games, your opinion has just as much intrinsic value as mine. In cases like this, I really don't think it does. You did succeed in making me go into full-on arrogant internet ******* mode though, which is something I'm normally good at avoiding, so I guess you get some credit for that.

Why did they go in and kill him instead of capturing him? I know a lot of people see this as "justice" but since I'm Australian and we don't have a death penalty here... it doesn't seem like "justice" to me...

But it's revenge, not justice. That's the thing... people are saying this is justice but what it really is is revenge when it really comes down to it.

Except it didn't happen like that. It was thought that's how it happened, but new info was released that says that never happened. One of his wives actually rushed the soldiers and they shot her in the leg. Bin Laden himself wasn't armed with anything.

I can understand why things ended up the way they did and why people feel the way they do. But to me, what happened was a revenge killing.

Whether or not it fulfills some nebulous concept of "justice" has nothing to do with it, nor should it. This is not part of a criminal proceeding. It is a war. Osama was a dangerous enemy combatant, therefore he was killed. In a battle, you don't try an enemy soldier before a judge and jury before you pull the trigger, but you don't consider it a revenge killing either. Capturing him alive would have put the team at greater risk, and killing him served valid military purposes. Look at as killing an enemy general (but even more OK, since he was an unlawful combatant).

It would have been better to capture him, juice him for information, then execute him by court order. Not as good for ratings though....

Not really. It would create a media circus that, among other things, terrorists could use to their advantage. Also, it would shift this from being the killing of a dangerous enemy combatant in a war, to being a criminal proceeding. It would set all sorts of precedents best avoided.

However much America may have turned him into the bogeyman, he was never more than a bogeyman, ... his reputation is wholly the west's making

While his power was reduced in the last decade, that's only because we turned a lot of resources towards the seat of that power. If we'd considered him nothing but a bogeyman, we wouldn't have done that, and he'd still command significant resources. A powerful figure in a large and effective terrorist organization is far more than just a bogeyman, and his reputation was gained through his actions, not some Western manufacture.

IS ANYTHING TRUE!? Aaaaaaaaagh!

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted. Now put your ring finger out on that chopping block, ok?

Sabretooth
05-03-2011, 11:57 PM
The newest story is that Osama was unarmed, and resisted arrest before being double-tapped (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13274176).

mimartin
05-04-2011, 12:55 AM
Finding Bin Laden was never the main goal of the GWOT. The money spent on the war in Afghanistan and Iraq cannot be called the cost of finding Bin Laden.?Of course he wasn't the main goal, but that wasn't what we were told by our leader at the time. (http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2011/05/02/lkl.bush.osama.cnn.html) Personally I don't think terrorism was the main goal either or if it was we would not have attacked Iraq.

Salzella
05-04-2011, 01:43 AM
The newest story is that Osama was unarmed, and resisted arrest before being double-tapped (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13274176).

Being unarmed has never stopped the US military before, why now?

Sabretooth
05-04-2011, 02:52 AM
I think trying to save time may have been a priority. Pakistan hadn't been made aware of the operation and they had begun scrambling fighter jets. Perhaps the last thing they wanted was the place to be surrounded by Pakistani forces by the time they're done with Osama.

Remember that the PMA was at walking distance from the house, not only would it be an important target for attacks (terrorist ones or otherwise), but it would be easy to scramble troops if Pakistan catches wind of what's going on the compound. The US wanted a quick in, quick out.

Liverandbacon
05-04-2011, 03:00 AM
Being unarmed has never stopped the US military before, why now?

How about not making sweeping statements on subjects you know nothing about?

If I'd been allowed to shoot anyone I pleased, my job would've been a whole lot easier. Morally indefensible, sure, but definitely easier. I'm assuming that you're referring to civilians as well as unarmed known combatants.

Osama did not surrender, and was with a bunch of his buddies who were armed. There were obviously guns in the room that he could easily grab, given the chance. It would be insane to require a US soldier to wait for him to grab a nearby gun before shooting him, all the while being shot at by Osama's friends. It's not like they waltzed into the building, found poor defenseless Osama, and shot him in the head before he could open his mouth.

Astor
05-04-2011, 04:50 AM
The newest story is that Osama was unarmed, and resisted arrest before being double-tapped (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13274176).

I don't think there was ever any real intention of taking him alive. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I think he would have been shot pretty soon after surrendering anyway. The temptation would probably have proved too great to someone.

Primogen
05-04-2011, 05:28 AM
What a tragedy. I might shed a tear. Wait, no, that's orange juice.

Miltiades
05-04-2011, 07:39 AM
I was musing: If you were a military operations planner and/or a government that has spent an extreme amount of resources in a war started by one man, wouldn't it be more logical to have a priority to take him alive if possible?

Now, doing so would cause an incredible amount of fanfare, and cause the very likely threat of retaliatory action in the form of reverse-hostage blackmail, as is characteristic of the enemy you face. So, it would make sense to have operation representatives to make a statement to the entire world that the target has been eliminated, as the gravity of such an action would generally rule out the possibility of untruth in the minds of most people. I can almost imagine if Bin Laden was captured, America would go Roman Empire style and make him walk through the streets of NY chained to a car or something. Public humiliation and all that.

In any case, I can understand the satisfaction people have gotten for Bin Laden's death (whether it's revenge, justice or something else), but the cheering in the streets I find ridiculous. Then again, Americans are weird.

@Qui-Gon: I'm guessing there are a lot of reasons why someone might hate the US, depending on where you live. Me, I don't hate it, but I don't like it either. What I do think is that in more than a few ways, it's a backwater country. No offense.

Totenkopf
05-04-2011, 02:58 PM
Don't know how long this will last (esp given how this admin has been a bit all over the map post-op, so to speak): http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110504/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden

Paging Donald Trump.....Donald Trump..... :D

Q
05-04-2011, 05:19 PM
Being unarmed has never stopped the US military before, why now?
Care to add anything constructive to the discussion, or are you merely here to troll, troll? :dozey:

You're just jealous because we're not an Orwellian nanny-state with video cameras on every street corner. :p


Yet. :¬:

SITH LORD 872
05-04-2011, 05:49 PM
I personally think they should stop bringing it up on the news, And every Talk show, And just be done with it, it's over and done with!!

jawathehutt
05-04-2011, 06:25 PM
I personally think they should stop bringing it up on the news, And every Talk show, And just be done with it, it's over and done with!!
Its this or the wedding. You pick

The Doctor
05-04-2011, 06:55 PM
I don't think that any of us should kid ourselves about Osama ever being brought into custody. I personally don't think any soldier fighting in the region would have been able to resist killing him, regardless of orders - standing or otherwise. Maybe within the first year or so after 9/11, but not after nearly a decade of evading and essentially taunting his pursuers.

He was always going to be killed upon discovery, if you ask me. And really - and this is one of the few times I feel no need to criticise the American military - I don't think there's a damned thing wrong with that.

SITH LORD 872
05-04-2011, 07:04 PM
Its this or the wedding. You pick

LOL! In all honesty i would rather hear about the wedding!!

Mandalorian Knight
05-04-2011, 07:45 PM
Being unarmed has never stopped the US military before, why now?

Contribute to the discussion. Give facts, make an argument. Don't just insult the whole of the US military without at least attempting to back it up, its a low blow to those of us who have or are preparing to put our lives on the line for our country.

Bin Laden was a legitimate combatant, armed or not. The point of rapidly storming a building is to tilt the odds in your favor. If the enemy doesn't even have time to pick up a rifle, then those SEALs did an excellent job.

Sabretooth
05-04-2011, 11:20 PM
Being unarmed has never stopped the US military before, why now?

As opposed to what, the British military (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre)? :p

Mandalorian Knight
05-04-2011, 11:26 PM
As opposed to what, the British military (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre)? :p

Good thing they couldn't fit the armored cars in...

Tommycat
05-05-2011, 07:54 PM
Also it should be noted that it was a distinct possibility he had a suicide vest on... I mean it's not like terrorists have been opposed to blowing themselves up to take people out.

I say Bravo Zulu SEALs, on a job well done.

SITH LORD 872
05-06-2011, 04:47 PM
All i have to say is, Those SEALS have balls of steel!!

Primogen
05-06-2011, 05:25 PM
Of course they do, they're -SEALS-. The whole organization is hardcore as hell.

Mandalorian Knight
05-06-2011, 06:51 PM
Don't forget those SOAR pilots. Helicopters aren't exactly aerodynamic when something goes wrong. A hard landing with no casualties? That's the kind of pilot I'd like to fly me around.

Hell, all those SOF guys are hardcore.

mimartin
05-06-2011, 08:27 PM
Also it should be noted that it was a distinct possibility he had a suicide vest on... I mean it's not like terrorists have been opposed to blowing themselves up to take people out. I really don't see Bin Ladin wearing a suicide vest as a distinct possibility. He always seemed more like let the other guy wear the vest type of guy.

Please don’t take that as an attack on the Seal that shot Bin Ladin because it is not. In life Bin Ladin seemed to approve of killing unarmed people, so I’m sure he would have approve of the Seal’s actions too.

Jae Onasi
05-06-2011, 09:45 PM
@ Taak Farst: 67 of your United Kingdom compatriots died in the 9/11 attacks, along with 24 Canadians, 11 Australians, and 271 other foreign nationals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_September_11_attacks).

The families of your fellow citizens who died at the word of Bin Laden have finally received some measure of justice. I apologize to them on behalf of the US military and the gov't for it taking nearly 10 years.

Qui-Gon Glenn
05-07-2011, 03:09 AM
@Milt: I think you know my politics a little better than that... I am a big criticizer of my country of origin, and think that we have done things that are downright despicable. I still love the land where I live... it is home, the only one I have known. But I am no nationalist.

That makes us no different than all of the "powerful" nations or states in human history. Big power == big bad decisions, power plays, dirty pool, etc.

@Liverandbacon: fair point on why killing him was the better and more logical choice. I am a philosopher, not a tactician, and I have no experience as a soldier. I fight CQC, and well, but in a gunfight I am screwed. I do like Stratego though.

@Jae's post right above mine: great point - it was not simply Americans who suffered loss in that attack. Every one of those foreign nationals had families in there homeland who suffered a great deal. It was a tragedy that truly affected people around the world.

Salzella
05-07-2011, 02:47 PM
Being unarmed has never stopped the US military before, why now?

Erm, sorry about that. Don't remember writing it but i assume i was trolling yah.

kids, don't drink and debate.

Q
05-07-2011, 04:44 PM
I've been guilty of Debating Under the Influence, myself. :p

Totenkopf
05-14-2011, 11:50 AM
The computers were just filled with porn. :xp:

Sample
http://www.ihavenothing.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/burka1.jpg In Bin Ladin defense the women were wearing burkas.

Well, I guess it's "official" now: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/exclusive-pornography-found-bin-laden-hideout-officials-162214194.html But, hey, I guess if you were locked away in Pakistan w/his wives (judging from the pics).....porn might seem like an attractive distraction. :xp:

Liverandbacon
05-16-2011, 11:41 AM
kids, don't drink and debate.

Learnt that particular life lesson at uni. It all goes well at first, until people get pennied a few times, everyone's a few more pints in, and the debate gets steadily less logical and/or civil. But exponentially more entertaining to watch.

Well, I guess it's "official" now: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/exclusive-pornography-found-bin-laden-hideout-officials-162214194.html But, hey, I guess if you were locked away in Pakistan w/his wives (judging from the pics).....porn might seem like an attractive distraction. :xp:

Religious fanatic terrorists often have copious amounts of porn (rather amusingly, it's mostly Western or messed up Japanese ****). I'm not a psychologist, but I'd wager some serious self-loathing is a not insignificant contributing factor to their habit of blowing themselves up in the name of righteousness.

mimartin
05-26-2011, 02:02 PM
Religious fanatic terrorists often have copious amounts of porn (rather amusingly, it's mostly Western or messed up Japanese ****). I'm not a psychologist, but I'd wager some serious self-loathing is a not insignificant contributing factor to their habit of blowing themselves up in the name of righteousness.Just imagine how many things would get blown up if they were promised 72 American style strippers instead of 72 virgins. :D

Tommycat
05-26-2011, 07:22 PM
Just imagine how many things would get blown up if they were promised 72 American style strippers instead of 72 virgins. :D

I might convert :D

Primogen
05-26-2011, 08:37 PM
American strippers?

I'd be -less- enticed. Strippers typically don't look all that great in decent light.

Tommycat
05-28-2011, 10:57 AM
American strippers?

I'd be -less- enticed. Strippers typically don't look all that great in decent light.

Agree with mim...
If you go to the strip clubs at night on a weekend, and it's not Joe McSloppy's you might actually see a few strippers that look pretty dang nice. Don't get me wrong, I know lots of strippers are fugly in broad daylight, but if you go to a better club you'll see better strippers...

Brotherhood
05-28-2011, 01:24 PM
Only a bunch of sickos, hobos and fugly people would go to a worn out pub full of pervs and strippers at night//get married :mad:

And back to the whole point of the discussion no one can prove bin laden is dead
It could be an entire political hoax and that bin ladens colleges are saying hes dead so he can lie low "safely"

SHOW US THE PROOF OBAMA SHOW US PICTURES SHOW US THE SCENE

SHOW US THE TRUTH

This conversation has gone bad

Q
05-28-2011, 02:45 PM
Well, Al Qaeda's had its say, now.

We should feel honored. I didn't know LF was that important.

Sabretooth
05-28-2011, 03:22 PM
It could be an entire political hoax and that bin ladens colleges are saying hes dead so he can lie low "safely"

Declaring a cover-up that their leader, icon and messiah is dead and capped shamefully by American elite soldiers in his own home, sounds like beyond shooting oneself in the foot.

While in the short term, reprisal attacks are expected from jehadi organisations worldwide, Osama's death is going to significantly demoralise the movement in the long run and the Al Qaeda knows it.

Besides, Osama was lying "safely" enough before his demise.

Q
05-28-2011, 03:50 PM
Why is my government giving billions of dollars to ****ing Pakistan?!

Primogen
05-28-2011, 03:55 PM
Because politicians are stupid, Q.

mimartin
05-28-2011, 04:47 PM
Why is my government giving billions of dollars to ****ing Pakistan?!
To keep Bin Ladin safe?

Weren't some Americans critical of candidate Obama when he said as president he would strike al Qaeda targets inside Pakistan (http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/01/us-usa-politics-obama-idUSN0132206420070801)? Oh no, we can’t do that to a ally.

Isaac Clarke
05-28-2011, 07:38 PM
nvm

Sabretooth
05-29-2011, 12:40 AM
Why is my government giving billions of dollars to ****ing Pakistan?!

Because Pakistan will implode without them / military coup, causing an added headache for India and essentially creating a fresh new Afghanistan scenario.

Speaking of which, this is a really good article about what's wrong with the ISI (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/12/isi-bin-laden-death-pakistan-alqaida?INTCMP=SRCH).

Brotherhood
05-29-2011, 02:44 AM
Because politicians are stupid, Q.

So true--------so true

Liverandbacon
05-29-2011, 07:36 PM
Only a bunch of sickos, hobos and fugly people would go to a worn out pub full of pervs and strippers at night//get married :mad:

And back to the whole point of the discussion no one can prove bin laden is dead
It could be an entire political hoax and that bin ladens colleges are saying hes dead so he can lie low "safely"

SHOW US THE PROOF OBAMA SHOW US PICTURES SHOW US THE SCENE

SHOW US THE TRUTH

This conversation has gone bad

Obama isn't dumb enough to fake Osama's death. If it were faked, Osama could just release another tape proving he's alive, and score a big propaganda victory. Getting caught in that lie would kill any chance of Obama getting reelected. Osama was lying low pretty safely anyway, and many thought he was already dead.

It wasn't a hoax.

VegetableMonster
05-30-2011, 10:19 AM
Because politicians are stupid, Q.

i agree with that



and no offense to the president but it woudnt suprise me if he was tht dumb. of all the politicians ive seen hes the worst (in my opinion of course. its just that he is against all of my views and his solutions to problems seem to cause more problems)

Sabretooth
05-30-2011, 01:03 PM
and no offense to the president but it woudnt suprise me if he was tht dumb. of all the politicians ive seen hes the worst

You need to see more politicians. Lots more politicians.

Liverandbacon
05-30-2011, 04:52 PM
Faking Osama's death would be a very bad idea for any President. The problems with the idea are obvious. Politicians generally make their painfully stupid decisions on issues that are highly divisive, will greatly help their reelection, or both. Faking Osama's death isn't in the interests of either political party, and would be disastrous for a politician's reelection goals if the truth came out (and it would be next to impossible to conceal the truth). Even if Obama was the mental equivalent of a vegetable (which he isn't), one of his advisers would catch the flaws in the plan, and it would be rejected.

Also, I think it's a mistake to assume that Obama is stupid. Is he wrong on a number of issues? That's open to opinion (I disagree with him on many issues, agree with him on others). However, he is not a stupid man. If university taught me anything, it's that people can be extraordinarily smart, while also being extraordinarily wrong.

He's dead, Jim.

Tommycat
05-31-2011, 03:43 PM
I for one believe he's dead. If the government claims he's dead, and the military claims he's dead, I believe it. Why? Simple. The military gains only a small bump in "ATTA BOY's" by saying he's gone. It would make more sense to have him dead and pretend he's alive. Maintaining a ruse that he's still alive would actually give them more reason to maintain business as usual and keep funding at current levels. He made an excellent "boogyman" for the government to scare us with.

It's too early in the election cycle for it to be for a re-election campaign. Americans are on the whole relatively fickle. A month or so and it's out of the news. A couple months later, and it's nearly forgotten. A whole year and a half and you might as well be talking about 8-track cassettes.

Besides, if you want to take some of the credit away from President Obama on this, just understand that it was information gathered from people he told the American people there was no reason to question, in prison camps that he said he would get rid of. That should keep the righties happy.

Mandalorian Knight
06-01-2011, 01:43 AM
Only a bunch of sickos, hobos and fugly people would go to a worn out pub full of pervs and strippers at night//get married :mad:

And back to the whole point of the discussion no one can prove bin laden is dead
It could be an entire political hoax and that bin ladens colleges are saying hes dead so he can lie low "safely"

SHOW US THE PROOF OBAMA SHOW US PICTURES SHOW US THE SCENE

SHOW US THE TRUTH

This conversation has gone bad

What? DNA evidence isn't enough? The word of some of the best warriors America has to offer isn't enough?

I cannot comprehend this position at all. If DNA evidence, witnesses, and AQ saying that he's dead isn't enough, then a picture won't be either. If pictures were were released, there would just be cries of how they were photo shopped.

And as far as political motivations go, this isn't something that *could* be faked, much less actually pulled off. There are too many parties involved, each of the stories would have to match perfectly. Moreover, something on this scale couldn't just be called a little white lie. Even if you could fake an operation of this size, the dangers far outweigh the benefits.

Tommycat
06-01-2011, 03:27 PM
Pics or it didn't happen!

<show pics>

Shopped

mimartin
06-01-2011, 04:34 PM
I for one don't want to see no pics of a dead man, now if they want to release the porn he had on his computer then I would give that a look.:dev14:

Totenkopf
06-01-2011, 04:40 PM
And as far as political motivations go, this isn't something that *could* be faked, much less actually pulled off. There are too many parties involved, each of the stories would have to match perfectly. Moreover, something on this scale couldn't just be called a little white lie. Even if you could fake an operation of this size, the dangers far outweigh the benefits.

To the conspiritorially minded, nothing is impossible. The problem is, though, *pics, or it didn't happen*. If someone believes in the 911 truther stuff, how beyond the pale would this seem. :giveup: I think enough people have become increasingly disillusioned with lying pols that they want some kind of proof beyond assurances and press releases. As has been pointed out, though, they might not accept such pics as definitive proof anyway. That Eagle won't land either....at least in their eyes. ;)

Working Class Hero
06-01-2011, 09:38 PM
I think that you guys are missing something: you aren't considering that there are people like me who want to see the pictures and won't immediately cry photoshop. From visual proof, to seeing the effects of war, there are legit reasons to seeing pics like this.

Refusing to release them because you're afraid of the reactions of batty people is just catering to fear and hurts those, like me, do want visual proof and are mature enough to handle it. If you don't want to look at pictures of war, fine, but it's offensive to me to restrict other people from seeing them.

Tommycat
06-02-2011, 12:31 AM
I think that you guys are missing something: you aren't considering that there are people like me who want to see the pictures and won't immediately cry photoshop. From visual proof, to seeing the effects of war, there are legit reasons to seeing pics like this.

Refusing to release them because you're afraid of the reactions of batty people is just catering to fear and hurts those, like me, do want visual proof and are mature enough to handle it. If you don't want to look at pictures of war, fine, but it's offensive to me to restrict other people from seeing them.

Why do you NEED to see them? Why would the pics be more believable than the government, The US military AND Al Queda saying that he's dead? It's pretty hard to get some form of consensus between the US and a terrorist group. As I said before, it makes no sense to fake it.

mimartin
06-02-2011, 01:27 AM
Why do you NEED to see them? Morbid curiosity?

I don’t need to see them, but yet I believe. Of course I also believe man landed on the moon, Oswald shot Kennedy, Elvis is dead, vaccination are design to immunize and Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in 2002 -2003. Oh wait. :xp:

Tommycat
06-02-2011, 12:38 PM
Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in 2002 -2003. Oh wait. :xp:
Yeah but that one they had pictures of lol... Pics don't really prove anything.

Of course I'm sure that some people would never believe. I mean we could have Bin Laden's corpse dangling like a piñata in front of the white house and someone would still claim we didn't get him. But when your enemy says you got their leader and you claim you got their leader, it's hard to find a counter to that.

You know I'm no fan of Obama, but I believe that in this instance he got it right.

Mandalorian Knight
06-02-2011, 04:51 PM
I think that you guys are missing something: you aren't considering that there are people like me who want to see the pictures and won't immediately cry photoshop. From visual proof, to seeing the effects of war, there are legit reasons to seeing pics like this.

Refusing to release them because you're afraid of the reactions of batty people is just catering to fear and hurts those, like me, do want visual proof and are mature enough to handle it. If you don't want to look at pictures of war, fine, but it's offensive to me to restrict other people from seeing them.

Speaking for myself, my comments were directed towards those claiming that pictures would be proof, despite all the evidence that already exists.

That being said, I don't think that the pictures need to be released. While I can understand a desire to see the body, with all the evidence pointing towards his death already, I believe that he's dead. Would I look at the picture is they were released? Yes. Does the fact that they aren't released make me think that Bin Laden is still alive somewhere? No.

Q
06-03-2011, 06:56 PM
To keep Bin Ladin safe?

Weren't some Americans critical of candidate Obama when he said as president he would strike al Qaeda targets inside Pakistan (http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/01/us-usa-politics-obama-idUSN0132206420070801)? Oh no, we can’t do that to a ally.
This is one of the few times that an American politician has kept a campaign promise; and to the letter, it seems. Kudos to the president for that.

A brilliant quote, there. Irrefutable.

Taak Farst
07-25-2011, 09:11 PM
Who flew the airliners into the twin towers, then? The bogeyman?

sorry for being so late to the party here.

but.


the illumaniti.

The Doctor
07-25-2011, 11:44 PM
sorry for being so late to the party here.

but.


the illumaniti.

One day, you're gonna look back on these posts and be embarrassed by your younger self. I guarantee it.

purifier
07-26-2011, 01:04 AM
sorry for being so late to the party here.

but.


the illumaniti.


No, no, no...that's not possible. Laura Croft destroyed most of the Illuminati members in the Tomb Raider incident, remember? :raise:

It was your buddies, NASA. They found out about a large group of people working in the Twin Towers that day, with the help of remote viewers, who were about to reveal the truth about the fake moon landing. So they asked the HAARP project team to secretly tune HAARP's frequency into controlling the minds of poor Muslim extremist into taking over the planes. Therefore, NASA gave instructions to HAARP to program the minds of these poor Muslim extremist, who where about to become peaceful muslims before this happened, into crashing those airplanes into the Twin Towers. They did all this because they know you know, that they didn't put a man on the moon. But if the truth ever came out, they didn't want you to be able to say "see...I told you so."


:fist: Stick to your convictions, man, don't let NASA get away with it!

Astor
07-26-2011, 05:59 AM
sorry for being so late to the party here.

but.


the illumaniti.

Now he's just trolling.

And besides, you mean to say it wasn't a fiendish combination of the Bush Administration, CIA, FBI, ATF, WTF and the US Post Office?

Mandalorian Knight
07-26-2011, 03:16 PM
Now he's just trolling.

And besides, you mean to say it wasn't a fiendish combination of the Bush Administration, CIA, FBI, ATF, WTF and the US Post Office?

Yes, the post office. That secret evil that has been destroying the United States for decades.

Or, y'know, not.

jawathehutt
07-28-2011, 12:21 AM
You ignorant sheeple have left out the true masterminds, the U.S. Board on Geographic Names and the The Committee for the Implementation of Textile Agreements (CITA). It appears their satanic goals have finally been realized. Somehow.

Q
07-30-2011, 05:45 AM
sorry for being so late to the party here.

but.


the illumaniti.
1/10.

CptPriceless
05-06-2012, 12:43 AM
Osama's "last words". (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2113848,00.html)

Q
05-06-2012, 08:22 AM
And I thought it was "BRB. Someone's at the door. I think it's the pizza."