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HK-42
05-23-2011, 01:19 AM
I may be late in finding this, if it is common knowledge then I am ready for embarrassment. In light of the failed prophecy of the Rapture I did some searching and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes

Apparently a catholic saint named St. Malachy has predicted every Pope since 1143, with a few mistakes. The book was published in 1595, having been lost for over 400 years. For each of his prophecy's has a small phrase, the popes name, and in most cases an explanation of the phrase. It seems from reading that he was spot on.

Even more interesting, the last pope he predicted I could gather comes after the current Pope Benedict XVI. He said the church would end with this next pope.

The Book screenshot:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3766/lignumvitae1page1.jpg
Fake? Wrong? I don't know.

PS: I am not Catholic, don't jump on me :indif: In fact I am more antagonistic than Christian. And If this needs to be in Kavar's Corner it can be moved.

Sabretooth
05-23-2011, 01:32 AM
After the next pope, the Holy Roman Empire is reinstated replacing the European Union and the Pope is renamed to well, you know what.

Jae Onasi
05-23-2011, 10:32 AM
Moved to Kavar's.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
05-23-2011, 11:38 AM
12 Peter the Roman, who will nourish the sheep in many tribulations; when they are finished, the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the fearsome Judge will judge His people. The End.

I'm not familiar with Catholic theology, but i'm guessing fearsome Judge refers to the Biblical prophecy of Jesus Christ judging mankind, which is understood to happen at history's endgame.

...which means, that this is another 'end of the world' prophecy.

Take that as you will, but i'm finding it somewhat strange that there seems to be a surge of these 'ancient apocalyptic prophecies', at a time where there is prominent political turmoil (more so than usual), dire economic crises, and an increasing frequency of natural disasters around the globe (also, strange phenomena such as dying animals, and increased rate of shifting of the Earth's magnetic poles).
Its almost as if theres some kernel of truth hidden in the legends...

But don't mind me; i'm just religious. :p

Astor
05-23-2011, 11:55 AM
at a time where there is prominent political turmoil (more so than usual),

You'd need to define 'usual' for that to be true.

dire economic crises,

Again, the current economic situations aren't as severe as previous ones.

and an increasing frequency of natural disasters around the globe (also, strange phenomena such as dying animals, and increased rate of shifting of the Earth's magnetic poles).

Can't comment on the dying animals or magnetic poles, but with regard to the natural disasters, I'm not sure that they are actually happening more often, just being reported more often in a world that's starting to rely on 24 hour rolling news coverage.

mimartin
05-23-2011, 12:26 PM
Take that as you will, but i'm finding it somewhat strange that there seems to be a surge of these 'ancient apocalyptic prophecies', at a time where there is prominent political turmoil (more so than usual), dire economic crises, and an increasing frequency of natural disasters around the globe (also, strange phenomena such as dying animals, and increased rate of shifting of the Earth's magnetic poles).
Its almost as if theres some kernel of truth hidden in the legends...
"The Grass is always greener...."

It always looks worse when it is happening to you. There have been doomsayers since the dawn of time. At least now "most of us" are smart enough not to kill goats to appease the gods.

Political turmoil isn't that prominent. The economy isn't great, but it has been worse in my lifetime than this and what so strange about dying animals when we pump so many poisons into the air in the name of progress? The strange part is it doesn’t happen more often. ;)

Darth InSidious
05-23-2011, 03:22 PM
As a general rule of thumb, if it's on wikipedia, it's not that obscure. ;)

As to the prophecies themselves, it's curious that the book crops up about 1590, and that, before then, the prophecies fit very naturally, but after tend to be rather vague and have to be manipulated to fit the figure.

Let's take the 91st on the list, Benedict XIII, for an example. He reigned 1724-1730. The 'prophecy' is: "miles in bello", "a soldier in war". Benedict XIII was 75 when he became Pope. He was an elderly aristocrat and ascetic, who, according to Cardinal Lambertini (the future Benedict XIV, 1740-1758) had no idea about how to govern the Church. Supposedly he didn't even want to be a cardinal. He appears to have presided over war of no sort, been involved in nothing remotely war-like, and died (presumably of old age) in 1730, aged 81.

The prophecy doesn't seem to fit at all.

There was an Antipope Benedict XIII during the Western Schism, but his only connection to warfare was that the Papal palace he occupied in Avignon was besieged for three years at one point.

Let's take another example: #98, Leo XII (1823-1829). His prophecy reads "dog and adder". The only real justification for this is that both can be terms of abuse, and he was, apparently, widely hated.

Or more recent popes. Pope John Paul I, born Albino Luciani. Reigned 33 days in 1978. His prophecy is "from the midst of the moon". Here's the explanations wiki tries out:


Albino Luciani, who later became Pope John Paul I, was born in Canale d'Agordo, diocese of Belluno, which name is similar to bella luna or beautiful moon.

He was elected on August 26, 1978, the day after the moon reached its last quarter, and reigned for 33 days, approximately five days longer than a lunar cycle. He died the day before the new moon.

However, a much simpler explanation might be that he was born on the day of the half moon: on October 17, 1912, the moon was in its first quarter.

Others point to his name before becoming pope, Albino Luciani. Albino is related to "albus", white, and "Luciani", derived from "Lucius", is ultimately related to the Latin word lux "light", whence "white light". Still others have linked "half-moon" to the smile often exhibited by John Paul I, who is remembered by many as the "smiling Pope."


The only point which would fit is the third one, and that's still hardly conclusive: the prophecy is so vague you could twist it any way you want.

Or we could take the example of Benedict XVI. His prophecy is "glory of the olive". The only halfway-sensible explanations are that he was Cardinal-bishop of Velletri-Segni, and Velletri has a coat of arms with olive trees on it, and that he chose the name Benedict. A minor subset of the order of St Benedict are called the Olivetans (because there monastery is at Monte Oliveto, in Tuscany). Neither of these is exactly a great link. Particularly since the Pope made clear at the time of his election that he chose the name in particular to recall Pope Benedict XV, who was pope during the First World War.


I'm not familiar with Catholic theology, but i'm guessing fearsome Judge refers to the Biblical prophecy of Jesus Christ judging mankind, which is understood to happen at history's endgame.
Probably. One of the things which used to be recited at the Requiem Mass was called the "dies irae" (day of anger), which is a long mediaeval poem. It makes numerous references to the Judge who will come at the end of time.

In English, the second stanza reads:

How much tremor there will be,
when the judge will come,
investigating everything strictly!

Of course, this also fits with the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed, which toward the end says: "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end."

...which means, that this is another 'end of the world' prophecy.
Pretty much. This one just happens to be Early Modern-pretending-to-be-early-mediaeval. Which is odd, because AFAIK people in mediaeval times expected the end of the world to practically around the corner, not in another thousand years.

Take that as you will, but i'm finding it somewhat strange that there seems to be a surge of these 'ancient apocalyptic prophecies', at a time where there is prominent political turmoil (more so than usual), dire economic crises, and an increasing frequency of natural disasters around the globe (also, strange phenomena such as dying animals, and increased rate of shifting of the Earth's magnetic poles).
Its almost as if theres some kernel of truth hidden in the legends...
I'm not sure that there has been a surge as such, TBH. The Prophecy of the Popes is sort of evidence of that: it's over 400 years old.

People are looking to them more often, but I don't think that proves much except that people always tend to think the world is getting worse with each succeeding generation (Bernard of Cluny in the early 12th Century wrote a poem beginning with the line "the newest hours are the worst times - let us keep watch").

And millenialist (?) and rapture-based "end of the world" prophecies have been around since at least the 19th Century. If we were looking for signs of the times, the two World Wars would seem more likely indicators than any recent international conflict, most of which, by contrast, has been pretty piffling.

As an aside, I don't really understand Christians who predict a specific time for the end of the world. Considering Matthew 24:36 ("But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."), and Acts 1:7 ("He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority."), I find it really odd that it's often (though not always), those who talk most about 'Biblical' Christianity who then go in for this sort of guess-the-date apocalypticism.

"The Grass is always greener...."

It always looks worse when it is happening to you. There have been doomsayers since the dawn of time. At least now "most of us" are smart enough not to kill goats to appease the gods.

Political turmoil isn't that prominent. The economy isn't great, but it has been worse in my lifetime than this and what so strange about dying animals when we pump so many poisons into the air in the name of progress? The strange part is it doesn’t happen more often. ;)

QFT.

Tommycat
05-23-2011, 03:26 PM
"The Grass is always greener...."

It always looks worse when it is happening to you. There have been doomsayers since the dawn of time. At least now "most of us" are smart enough not to kill goats to appease the gods.
Yeah... Besides, everyone knows that God prefers Twinkies instead. and you must drink from it's heart as you devour it's flesh :D
Political turmoil isn't that prominent. The economy isn't great, but it has been worse in my lifetime than this and what so strange about dying animals when we pump so many poisons into the air in the name of progress? The strange part is it doesn’t happen more often. ;)
Political turmoil can't be near as bad as, say... 1860-1861. There were many times in just America's short history that were worse than today. Let alone going as far back as European history. But lets face it, as you said earlier, there have been doomsayers all through history. Heck there was even a cult in the late 1800's that believed the turn of the century would bring about the end of the world... Someone's always saying the end of the world is coming.

Of course I think the end of the world is coming, I just happen to think it's a few million years out.

JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
05-26-2011, 09:37 PM
You'd need to define 'usual' for that to be true.



Again, the current economic situations aren't as severe as previous ones.



Can't comment on the dying animals or magnetic poles, but with regard to the natural disasters, I'm not sure that they are actually happening more often, just being reported more often in a world that's starting to rely on 24 hour rolling news coverage.

"The Grass is always greener...."

It always looks worse when it is happening to you. There have been doomsayers since the dawn of time. At least now "most of us" are smart enough not to kill goats to appease the gods.

Political turmoil isn't that prominent. The economy isn't great, but it has been worse in my lifetime than this and what so strange about dying animals when we pump so many poisons into the air in the name of progress? The strange part is it doesn’t happen more often. ;)
As a general rule of thumb, if it's on wikipedia, it's not that obscure. ;)

I'm not sure that there has been a surge as such, TBH. The Prophecy of the Popes is sort of evidence of that: it's over 400 years old.

People are looking to them more often, but I don't think that proves much except that people always tend to think the world is getting worse with each succeeding generation (Bernard of Cluny in the early 12th Century wrote a poem beginning with the line "the newest hours are the worst times - let us keep watch").

And millenialist (?) and rapture-based "end of the world" prophecies have been around since at least the 19th Century. If we were looking for signs of the times, the two World Wars would seem more likely indicators than any recent international conflict, most of which, by contrast, has been pretty piffling.
Just idle musing. ;) I'm quite aware things have been far worse in history, and the world hasn't ended.
As for the natural disasters, we've had constant news coverage for the past 10 years at least, and it seems to me that the rate of reported disasters in the past 6 months or so is higher than the what's has been for the previous years in the last decade. But, as i said, i am content to simply raise my eyebrow at it and call it odd, rather than proclaim the end of the world, as some Christians do.


As an aside, I don't really understand Christians who predict a specific time for the end of the world. Considering Matthew 24:36 ("But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."), and Acts 1:7 ("He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority."), I find it really odd that it's often (though not always), those who talk most about 'Biblical' Christianity who then go in for this sort of guess-the-date apocalypticism.


I'm not sure why they do it either.
I don't think its for attention.. i mean, look at Camping. Why would you want to make yourself an object of ridicule of the entire civilized world?

Perhaps it's born out of a sense of paranoia caused by Jesus' other statements about the end, such as the parable of the budding fig tree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_budding_fig_tree).
That is to say, some Christians are in a constant state of nervousness; jumping at every sound, as it were, and exclaiming "Look! It's the fig tree!!".
I think this is what also causes the phenomena of "every currently elected U.S. President being 'the antichrist.'"

Primogen
05-26-2011, 10:49 PM
Especially since 'The Antichrist' is not from the Bible. Not in the form of being the Devil in human form - no, in the Bible, it's just anyone who denies Christ.

Pavlos
05-27-2011, 05:50 AM
Just idle musing. ;) I'm quite aware things have been far worse in history, and the world hasn't ended.
As for the natural disasters, we've had constant news coverage for the past 10 years at least, and it seems to me that the rate of reported disasters in the past 6 months or so is higher than the what's has been for the previous years in the last decade. But, as i said, i am content to simply raise my eyebrow at it and call it odd, rather than proclaim the end of the world, as some Christians do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_bias

I will just say that the Revelation of St. John the Divine has been a thorn in the side of Western theologians since it was added (very late in the day) to the biblical canon. Mostly because it seems absurd after all those books on love and forgiveness to return to an Old Testament form of divine vengeance and wrath. The only thing that can be said in favour of it is that it adds a nice circularity to the book, bringing the end into concord with the beginning.

Darth InSidious
05-27-2011, 02:53 PM
I'm not sure why they do it either.
I don't think its for attention.. i mean, look at Camping. Why would you want to make yourself an object of ridicule of the entire civilized world?

Perhaps it's born out of a sense of paranoia caused by Jesus' other statements about the end, such as the parable of the budding fig tree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_budding_fig_tree).
That is to say, some Christians are in a constant state of nervousness; jumping at every sound, as it were, and exclaiming "Look! It's the fig tree!!".
I think this is what also causes the phenomena of "every currently elected U.S. President being 'the antichrist.'"

I don't think it's for attention, either - I think most of them feel something between indifference and contempt for what they view as the World which rejected Christ (see also: John 1:10). But with that said... given how clear the "you won't know when it comes" message of the Gospels is, I still find it odd. Then again, these are people who interpolate a 'mystical' meaning into Mt 16:18 and the synoptic institution narratives and John 6:35-70 (not to mention Rev. 12 and Luke 1:28 - these do tend to be the people most likely to go on about the evilness of Christ's mother), so perhaps it's no surprise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_bias

I will just say that the Revelation of St. John the Divine has been a thorn in the side of Western theologians since it was added (very late in the day) to the biblical canon. Mostly because it seems absurd after all those books on love and forgiveness to return to an Old Testament form of divine vengeance and wrath. The only thing that can be said in favour of it is that it adds a nice circularity to the book, bringing the end into concord with the beginning.
Well, that and that it is quite, quite beautiful in its terrifying-ness. :p

et post haec vidi, et ecce apertum est templum tabernaculi testimonii in caelo et exierunt septem angeli habentes septem plagas de templo vestiti lapide mundo candido et praecincti circa pectora zonis aureis et unus ex quattuor animalibus dedit septem angelis septem fialas aureas plenas iracundiae Dei viventis in saecula saeculorum et impletum est templum fumo a maiestate Dei et de virtute eius et nemo poterat introire in templum donec consummarentur septem plagae septem angelorum .