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mimartin
06-27-2011, 01:06 PM
I really don't know if I ever read a more bias article in my life.

U.S. Veteran Faces Legal Action for Flying American Flag in Front Yard (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/27/us-veteran-faces-legal-action-for-flying-american-flag/)

First off, no he does not face legal action for flying an American Flag. He faces legal action from his Homeowners Association for not following the rules set forth by the HOA. Rules he knew about when he purchased the home. It has nothing to do with the flag being American, but has only to do with the flag pole being used.

So does being a "retired U.S. Army chaplain" give someone the right to violate the rules?

“If they can dictate to me that I cannot fly an American flag in America, then, to me, the country is lost,” Mr. Quigley told the paper.

The HOA rules state that a flag can only be displayed if affixed to the home, but that would mean Quigley would have to remove the flagpole and put up a smaller flag.

The association has offered to fly the flag at the entrance of the building development, but Quigley refused the offer. I'm sorry just where does it say that Mr. Quigley cannot fly an American flag on his property? I guess Mr. Quigley could fight to change the rules about the flag pole, but then how would he feel if a neighbor put up a flag pole and flew a Mexican flag?

:patriot: God Bless America where rules only apply to the other guy.

ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/vietnam-vet-fighting-fly-glory/story?id=13923366)

WEWS 5 (http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/flag-controversey-sparks-protest)

The Columbus Dispatch (http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/06/23/ohio-veteran-battles-homeowners-association-over-flagpole.html?sid=101) What is that I see in the picture? American Flags displayed per the HOA rules flown proudly on other home in the neighborhood.

Totenkopf
06-27-2011, 02:55 PM
Interestingly, it seems that the HOA has violated Ohio law, so I guess that rules are meant to be broken by both sides.

mimartin
06-27-2011, 03:22 PM
Like I wrote the article is one of the most bias I've ever seen right down to leaving out the part of the Ohio Revised Code - Title LIII Real Property - Section 5301.072 Deed restrictions prohibiting placement of flag unenforceable covering that.

Ohio Revised Code - Title LIII Real Property - Section 5301.072 Deed restrictions prohibiting placement of flag unenforceable.

Legal Research Home > Ohio Laws > Real Property > Ohio Revised Code - Title LIII Real Property - Section 5301.072 Deed restrictions prohibiting placement of flag unenforceable.

(A) No covenant, condition, or restriction set forth in a deed, and no rule, regulation, bylaw, or other governing document or agreement of a homeowners, neighborhood, civic, or other association, shall prohibit or be construed to prohibit the placement on any property of a flagpole that is to be used for the purpose of displaying, or shall prohibit or be construed to prohibit the display on any property of, the flag of the United States if the flag is displayed in accordance with any of the following:

(1) The patriotic customs set forth in 4 U.S.C.A. 5-10, as amended, governing the display and use of the flag of the United States;

(2) The consent of the property's owner or of any person having lawful control of the property;

(3) The recommended flagpole standards set forth in "Our Flag," published pursuant to S.C.R. 61 of the 105th Congress, 1st Session (1998);

(4) Any federal law, proclamation of the president of the United States or the governor, section of the Revised Code, or local ordinance or resolution.

(B) A covenant, condition, restriction, rule, regulation, bylaw, governing document, or agreement or a construction of any of these items that violates division (A) of this section is against public policy and unenforceable in any court of this state to the extent it violates that division.

Effective Date: 04-07-2003HOAs by law have limited control over the property. So as much as I hate Homeowner Associations, it seems at least to me that they are not violating the Ohio Law quoted by the FoxNews article to me. At least not when I read the entire statute. Also by purchasing the home, Mr. Quigley entered an legal agreement with the HOA.

Totenkopf
06-27-2011, 07:32 PM
Yes, but if you read the Div A provisions closely, it doesn't state that all 4 conditions must be met, just any of them. If the flag is displayed according to any of the 4, then Div B seems to apply. The other three stories either seem to address the issue (of the statute) or ignore it altogether (the really short Dispatch piece). So, it will be interesting to see what a court decides. As to HOAs, I'd agree with your general sentiment about them.

Darth333
06-27-2011, 09:58 PM
As to HOAs, I'd agree with your general sentiment about them.
Why?

If the rules don't suit one's tastes, then this person can always buy elsewhere. At least the neighbors know what to expect and that their property won't lose value because a stupid neighbor decided to place cheap reproductions of antique roman statues or a multitude of garden gnomes on his front yard, paint his garage door with the logo of his favorite hockey team, let the grass grow so high you feel like you're in the jungle and, as a normal garbage bin is not enough, has an industrial garbage container in his driveway (my parents are actually stuck with such a neighbor doing the latter two while the city doesn't care and the only way to get rid of that is to go to court, which is very inconvenient, stressful, time consuming and expensive).

When I bought my house, I was actually happy to see such rules into place (fine is 100$/day per default) and an association to take care of the tasteless morons (dealing with the garden gnomes invasion was a breeze). (As for flags, they are prohibited).

mimartin
06-27-2011, 10:22 PM
Why? My problem with HOA have to do with my own stupidity. I believed the president of a HOA would actually honor a handshake agreement like I would. He didnít. My advice is read the agreement, ask questions and always ask for any variance in writing. Also if you come to an agreement make them honor their side of the agreement before you spend money honoring your side of it.

A HOA beats ending up looking outside at purple house with a pink fense.

Darth333
06-27-2011, 10:57 PM
My problem with HOA have to do with my own stupidity. :xp: An affliction which affects all of us from time to time it seems...

I believed the president of a HOA would actually honor a handshake agreement like I would. He didn’t. My advice is read the agreement, ask questions and always ask for any variance in writing. Also if you come to an agreement make them honor their side of the agreement before you spend money honoring your side of it. Writing...writing...writing...this is the key (I wish the engineers at my workplace would understand this...the piles of paper on my desk would be much smaller)...but still the person giving you this has to have authority to do so, otherwise it's useless. One of my neighbors asked me for permission to put a "lattice" ( not sure if this is the proper word) on top of the common fence in the backyard (the HOA won't move for backyard modifications unless the concerned neighbors complain or if it infringes municipal by-laws): I gave him my permission subject to certain conditions but I also asked him to sign a document saying that if I ever sold my house, he may be requested to remove it.

Totenkopf
06-27-2011, 11:41 PM
Why?

If the rules don't suit one's tastes, then this person can always buy elsewhere. At least the neighbors know what to expect and that their property won't lose value because a stupid neighbor decided to place cheap reproductions of antique roman statues or a multitude of garden gnomes on his front yard, paint his garage door with the logo of his favorite hockey team, let the grass grow so high you feel like you're in the jungle and, as a normal garbage bin is not enough, has an industrial garbage container in his driveway (my parents are actually stuck with such a neighbor doing the latter two while the city doesn't care and the only way to get rid of that is to go to court, which is very inconvenient, stressful, time consuming and expensive).

When I bought my house, I was actually happy to see such rules into place (fine is 100$/day per default) and an association to take care of the tasteless morons (dealing with the garden gnomes invasion was a breeze). (As for flags, they are prohibited).

I don't dispute their right to exist, just that the rules can be arbitrary and sometimes stupid. However, I also agree that there is a "to each his own/caveat emptor" aspect to HOAs. As both of you point out in your posts, be familiar with the rules of the area you wish to move in and then act accordingly. If you feel an HOA property is too restrictive for your tastes... live elsewhere.

Working Class Hero
06-28-2011, 12:43 PM
Seriously, why is this being reported by anything other than the local newspaper?

Totenkopf
06-28-2011, 02:39 PM
Slow news cycle? Need to fill the 24 hour void?.....

mimartin
06-29-2011, 01:34 PM
Everyone does know if they don't want to discuss the topic they can ignore the topic?

Tommycat
06-29-2011, 06:34 PM
I gotta agree with mim on this one. The article make sit out as if the HOA is somehow unpatriotic, however they offered a way to display his flag and a way for him to show his pride on his home as well.

I personally despise HOA's. I will never buy a home with an HOA. The last one I had(and last one I will ever have) was made up of busybodies who go around claiming that you've done something that is outside the lines of their guidelines, and now you have to pay a random fine. I work on cars as my hobby, so once in a while I had an oil spot on my driveway. Those buggers measured an oil spot to verify it was larger than 3 inches. In fact the two drops that were there were if measured from the top to the bottom got to 3.5 inches, but width was less than an inch. They fined me $200 for those oil spots.

A friend of mine had the HOA revise the rules because of his pit bulls. They specifically revised them to try to drive him out. It did not work and the HOA had to allow him to live there even with his dogs because he got the dogs prior to the revision. They took him to court over it and LOST big time. He countered, and got himself completely exempted from the HOA because of their attempts to force him out(there's more to it but I won't go into it).

Besides, I like having the houses not look completely cookie cutter where the only thing that differentiates yours from the next is the house number.

Darth Avlectus
07-04-2011, 01:53 AM
Never had to deal with a home owner's association directly though I can imagine what a pain they might be. It really depends on the HOA, the neighborhood, and the issues in question.

I've worked for an HOA, not as any official member but more as one of their maintenance people. However we worked as handy folks for a few of those (very wealthy) residents first. This one was actually rather easy going so I consider myself lucky. However I have seen some which throw a hissy fit if the housekeepers or guests so much as park the least bit out onto the sude if the road.

mimartin
07-05-2011, 01:31 PM
Well the evil HOA bowed to public support. (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/07/03/vietnam-war-veteran-wins-fight-to-fly-american-flag-on-front-lawn/)

ABC (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/fourth-july-victory-vet-fly-flag/story?id=13975134)

It only proves it isn't who is in the right that always wins the battle, but it is the person that cries the loudest that taste victory.

:usa: Rules really are made to be broken...

Totenkopf
07-06-2011, 03:10 PM
It only proves it isn't who is in the right that always wins the battle, but it is the person that cries the loudest that taste victory. ...

Not sure about the right or wrong in this, but you're correct that it does reinforce the notion that the man with the biggest megaphone/pulpit often carries the day.