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View Full Version : KOTOR 2 Storyline questions [SPOILERS]


arsenalforever
04-01-2012, 09:23 AM
Vrook to Exile on Dantooine:

"Somehow they [the Sith] have learned their hunger from you"

But I thought that they had learned all this from the Sith teachings in the Trayus Academy? Why does Vrook think that the Exile educated the Sith in feeding on the Force from others?

And I think the Masters tried to cut the Exile from the Force on Dantooine because they feared that if he fell to the Dark side, he too will become like Nihilius in order to satisfy his hunger. Am I right?

Another thing I want to understand is, Nihilius learned to feed on other Force sensitives from the Sith teachings, but where did the Exile learn to do this? The Masters call him the "Death of the Force" even though he has not caused any harm. The Exile simply motivates others to stand with him and fight alongside him. He influences their decisions but where does he *FEED* on others?

Another thing, why doesn't the Exile die when he kills Kreia at the Trayus Core? They have a strong force bond between them, don't they?

TKA-001
04-01-2012, 09:32 AM
"Somehow they [the Sith] have learned their hunger from you"

But I thought that they had learned all this from the Sith teachings in the Trayus Academy? Why does Vrook think that the Exile educated the Sith in feeding on the Force from others?
I'm unsure of his exact meaning. Perhaps he think that the Sith learned this power by observing the Exile?

And I think the Masters tried to cut the Exile from the Force on Dantooine because they feared that if he fell to the Dark side, he too will become like Nihilius in order to satisfy his hunger. Am I right?
Yes. The problem, however, is that the Jedi don't know that because the Exile is of the same condition as Nihilus, she is the only one who could confront and have any chance of killing him in a straight-up fight.

Another thing I want to understand is, Nihilius learned to feed on other Force sensitives from the Sith teachings, but where did the Exile learn to do this? The Masters call him the "Death of the Force" even though he has not caused any harm. The Exile simply motivates others to stand with him and fight alongside him. He influences their decisions but where does he *FEED* on others?
The Jedi explain this elsewhere in this conversation. And Nihilus himself did not learn his draining power from the Sith, it is a consequence of his status as a wound in the Force and attunement to the dark side (the other Sith learned that from Trayus or wherever). Regarding the Exile herself, as the Jedi explain, she feeds off of the energy of her companions via their bonds (though evidently as a consequence of her light-side alignment, the only potentially negative side-effect is her unconscious affecting of their minds), and Zez-Kai Ell says that the Exile actually feeds off of everyone she kills (hence why she becomes more and more powerful as the game goes on; this is a clever way of explaining the level-up gameplay feature within the context of the story).

arsenalforever
04-01-2012, 09:48 AM
The problem, however, is that the Jedi don't know that because the Exile is of the same condition as Nihilus, she is the only one who could confront and have any chance of killing him in a straight-up fight.


Why is the Exile the only one who can kill Nihilius in a straight up fight?

The Jedi Masters cut the Exile off from the force because they fear that she might fall to the Dark side and become like Nihilius. But why would the Exile fall to the Dark side? She worked tirelessly and moved from planet to planet to save the Jedi Masters. If she would have been Dark sided, wouldn't she have killed the Jedi Masters?

Rtas Vadum
04-01-2012, 11:33 AM
Vrook to Exile on Dantooine:

"Somehow they [the Sith] have learned their hunger from you"

But I thought that they had learned all this from the Sith teachings in the Trayus Academy? Why does Vrook think that the Exile educated the Sith in feeding on the Force from others?

Because that is the simple answer. They don't know about Nihlius, only about the general Sith threat, and so they blame the one person who can do what they think is causing the problem.


Another thing, why doesn't the Exile die when he kills Kreia at the Trayus Core? They have a strong force bond between them, don't they?

At that point, it is more like they did. Though the game does make mention of the idea that, if severed, it would kill them both. But when it is, it is either that it was severed because it was no longer between the same people(i.e between Kreia and the Exile), or because it was a bond, inevitably, between teacher and student, so when she says "I will teach you no longer. Our bond remains, but that is all." The bond likely breaks with the utterance of that first part, and the second is a lie(as Kreia is known to do), though it is possible she would not have known about it.

Why is the Exile the only one who can kill Nihilius in a straight up fight?

The Jedi Masters cut the Exile off from the force because they fear that she might fall to the Dark side and become like Nihilius. But why would the Exile fall to the Dark side? She worked tirelessly and moved from planet to planet to save the Jedi Masters. If she would have been Dark sided, wouldn't she have killed the Jedi Masters?

They view the Exile's and Nihilus's power in a simplistic manner, and so they believed them the same. But there is a big difference between the two, the most obvious being that Nihilus knows full well that he is doing this, and that he needs to, while the Exile might have some idea, at no point in the game does he/she ever mention needing to feed of someone else. Beyond the Jedi masters in a DS play-through, anyone you do feed off of, you aren't taking enough to drain them completely.

Though as to why it is only the Exile that can deal with Nihilus? Any other Jedi, he would have drained and it would be done. But with the Exile, having so similar a power, trying to drain the Exile is like trying to drink water from a bowl that is full of holes - it isn't going to work. And since he came to Telos to feed, he is already weak. Then he tries to feed on the exile, which doesn't work, which might be why that fight is so easy.

But in truth, the whole idea of killing to increase strength? A bit of satire on how the game engine itself works. The main source of experience obviously comes from killing enemies, the same way the exile apparently gains experience.

JCarter426
04-01-2012, 07:17 PM
Vrook to Exile on Dantooine:

"Somehow they [the Sith] have learned their hunger from you"

But I thought that they had learned all this from the Sith teachings in the Trayus Academy? Why does Vrook think that the Exile educated the Sith in feeding on the Force from others?
They learned it from Malachor, ultimately - from the wound that the Exile created there. The masters are kind of right, even if you don't agree with their interpretation of events. Same with Kreia.
And I think the Masters tried to cut the Exile from the Force on Dantooine because they feared that if he fell to the Dark side, he too will become like Nihilius in order to satisfy his hunger. Am I right?
That's only part of it. They were afraid of the Exile for other reasons, too - and I don't think they all shared the same reasons for what they did. But generally, I think they saw the Exile as a wound in the Force, not a person - and Jedi teachings dictate that wounds in the Force are bad things that should be destroyed or avoided.
Another thing I want to understand is, Nihilius learned to feed on other Force sensitives from the Sith teachings, but where did the Exile learn to do this? The Masters call him the "Death of the Force" even though he has not caused any harm. The Exile simply motivates others to stand with him and fight alongside him. He influences their decisions but where does he *FEED* on others?
The Exile is the "Death of the Force" for a few reasons. First, the Exile is proof that life can exist without the Force, something that goes against the teachings of the Jedi. Second, the Exile draws power from something other than the Force - basically, the Exile is a threat to the establishment. But more than that, the Exile has the power to make people question their believes and influence their choices, and could force people to make one critical choice - to turn away from the Force.

As for the feeding thing, that's how the Exile is able to use the Force, with the bonding ability. This seems mostly harmless on its own, but when taken to extremes it can be used to drain the life from other people. This is what Nihilus does, this is what a dark sided Exile does to the masters after killing them, and it's possible even a light-sided Exile does this subconsciously, gaining strength from fallen enemies. Or as we call it, XP.
Another thing, why doesn't the Exile die when he kills Kreia at the Trayus Core? They have a strong force bond between them, don't they?
This is probably more complicated than all the previous questions combined. It's open to interpretation, but there are two main points I can see:

1. Bonds are between people, and people's relationships can change. When Kreia betrays the Exile, the Exile's feelings for her change, which could result in the dissolution of the bond.

2. What complicates the matter is that even if a normal bond would fade via #1, the Exile's bonds aren't normal. The Exile needs these bonds to feel the Force, through other people. Now, Kreia hates the Force. She criticizes the Jedi and Sith for using the Force as a crutch. Nihilus has the same power as the Exile, but let the hunger consume him. She doesn't want that to happen to the Exile; she wants the Exile to be able to use these bonds without relying on them for survival. So in forcing the Exile to kill her, she achieves this.

But as I said, it's pretty open, like most things in the game. We don't actually know that the Exile could die from one of these bonds, because this never happens. It very well could be a lie told by Kreia to further her schemes, but all her lies tend to have a bit of truth.

arsenalforever
04-02-2012, 06:16 AM
If any of you have played the M4-78 droid planet via a mod or something, Master Lonna Vash says that the bond between herself and her student broke when the student fell to the dark side. Is that what happened between the Exile and Kreia? The bond was between the Exile and *KRIEA*, not between the Exile and *DARTH TRAYA*, if you know what I mean?

Another thing, wasn't the Levelling up and XP thing there in KOTOR as well? Does that mean that even Revan fed on other force sensitives?

Blix
04-02-2012, 07:33 PM
^
Revan was polar opposite to Exile; he was revered as the life of the force, Exile was feared as the death of the force [I don't remember the EXACT quote but it's from dialogue between the Exile and Kreia (aboard the Ebon Hawk)].

TKA-001
04-02-2012, 08:51 PM
Why is the Exile the only one who can kill Nihilius in a straight up fight?
Because, as a wound in the Force, she is immune to his drainage power. When she confronts him on the Ravager he tries to use it on her, but only exhausts himself in the process.

The Jedi Masters cut the Exile off from the force because they fear that she might fall to the Dark side and become like Nihilius. But why would the Exile fall to the Dark side? She worked tirelessly and moved from planet to planet to save the Jedi Masters. If she would have been Dark sided, wouldn't she have killed the Jedi Masters?
Keep in mind that they haven't seen all of her good deeds; and since we know from both the movies and other parts of the EU that dark-siders can mask their alignment, they can't be sure whether she's deceiving them or not. And as others have noted, her status as a wound is bound to affect their judgement of her character a great deal.

Though the game does make mention of the idea that, if severed, it would kill them both. But when it is, it is either that it was severed because it was no longer between the same people(i.e between Kreia and the Exile), or because it was a bond, inevitably, between teacher and student, so when she says "I will teach you no longer. Our bond remains, but that is all." The bond likely breaks with the utterance of that first part, and the second is a lie(as Kreia is known to do), though it is possible she would not have known about it.
I call it a plot hole.

JCarter426
04-02-2012, 09:40 PM
Another thing, wasn't the Levelling up and XP thing there in KOTOR as well? Does that mean that even Revan fed on other force sensitives?[/QUOTE]
Nah, the game mechanics shouldn't be taken too seriously, down that path lies madness. This is just a bit of metafiction to make you think... just don't think about it too much. ;)
I call it a plot hole.
It's not really a plot hole... there are valid explanations present in the story, it's just not stated clearly and unilaterally.

TKA-001
04-03-2012, 08:37 PM
It is a plot hole. What Rtas says, which I quoted, is baseless, for he implies (and you outright state above) that the bond can be broken just because Kreia wants it to be broken - this allegation is contrary to what we learn about it from the first time it's spoken (that it was formed by accident, that it's dangerous, and that they can't get rid of it as far as they know).

To say that the game does not explain it clearly is putting it mildly. The bond is never even mentioned in the game past Telos (that is, Telos after the Jedi are killed on Dantooine), and even then only if the Exile kills Atris, prompting Kreia to contact her and tell her that she has to go to Malachor (since Atris, being dead, can't tell her). What everything about the Force bond that we are told in the actual game adds up to is "If one dies, so does the other." The only part of the game which even suggested that there is a way to get rid of it is the conversation with Vash on M4-78 (or wherever the hell you were supposed to encounter her), and even then, it's hardly comprehensive and leads to plenty of other unanswered questions (IIRC she says that if one turns to the dark side, a bond gets weakened/broken/whatever. But if that's the case, what happens if both members of a bond turn to the dark side at the same time, or if both are dark-sided at the beginning and one starts to drift to the light? And how does this make sense if we consider the fact that Kreia was attuned to the dark side from the beginning?). And, of course, the whole thing got cut from the game anyway.

Thus, during the final conversation at Malachor, neither the Exile nor Kreia even mention the bond (not even in cut dialogue, as far as I've heard, which makes me wonder whether the writers ever even thought of what would actually happen in the ending). The Exile's survival (which technically we don't even see if we go by the light-sided version, only the Ebon Hawk appearing nearby and then flying off) goes without explanation in relation to the Force bond, which is a major aspect of the plot from the beginning of the game. Plot hole.

JCarter426
04-04-2012, 06:03 PM
First, just because it isn't explained doesn't make it a plot hole; obviously Avellone and the other writers did consider this matter, since they wrote material hinting at an explanation but unfortunately got cut from the final game. So at the very least there is an explanation, it just didn't make it in. That's not a plot hole, that's just unfortunate.

Second, you seem to be ignoring or forgetting certain bits of dialogue that are still in the game that still hints at possible explanations - and indeed, there's always "Kreia was lying", but I'll admit that's not much better than "a wizard did it". But anyway, here's a bit of dialogue:
A bond between two living beings is not something easily broken. It is not a choice... it is like breaking a feeling. Like turning away from the Force. To break a bond, your feelings would have to change, or one of you would have to die - but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply... it would simply be empty, a wound.
Now consider:

1. He says breaking a bond is not a choice, like turning away from the Force, and yet the Exile did this already.

2. It's not the act of falling to the dark side that would break the bond, it's the feelings that form the bond changing, causing it to break; Kreia betrays the Exile, the Exile's feelings about her change, simple. What complicates it, as I mentioned earlier, is that the Exile needs these bonds to survive. Kreia talks a lot about how she wants to make the Exile overcome Malachor, become stronger than her, and so on - and killing her is the final test.

Obi-Wan Bologna
04-05-2012, 11:47 AM
Yeah, except Zez Kai Ell always says that last part twice haha

Hassat Hunter
04-05-2012, 12:13 PM
Yeah, except Zez Kai Ell always says that last part twice haha
*cough* TSLRCM *cough*
:D

arsenalforever
04-07-2012, 11:31 PM
Also if the Exile chooses the dark sided path in the game, isn't it possible to ally with the Sith?

Don't dark sided masters and padawans share force bonds? JCarter makes sense.

TKA-001
04-08-2012, 09:36 AM
First, just because it isn't explained doesn't make it a plot hole; obviously Avellone and the other writers did consider this matter, since they wrote material hinting at an explanation but unfortunately got cut from the final game. So at the very least there is an explanation, it just didn't make it in. That's not a plot hole, that's just unfortunate.
Firstly, yes, lack of explanation in the game does make it a plot hole (regardless what amounts of careless design and unfortunate happenstance may or may not be responsible). Take AotC as an example: if the two scenes where Obi-Wan takes the poison dart used by Jango and where he shows it to Dexter - thus establishing Kamino's connection to the assassination plot - were inexplicably not in the film, yet he just showed up at Kamino anyway later on, we would call that a plot hole, wouldn't we?

Better yet, if in KotOR I the player-character's true identity as Revan was to go completely unmentioned after the player leaves the Leviathan, even unto the end of the game - or if Carth's personal connection to Saul Karath was present in your conversations with him but went completely unmentioned on the Leviathan itself - would we not call that a plot hole?

The exact same thing is done with the Exile and Kreia's Force bond here. Past a certain point it is neither mentioned nor seen again.

dialogue that are still in the game that still hints at possible explanations - and indeed, there's always "Kreia was lying", but I'll admit that's not much better than "a wizard did it".
I'm glad that you're willing to admit that, but please in any future debates be courteous enough to not even mention the "Kreia = Liar" card, even conjecturally, unless you're willing to bring up a potential motive for her lying in the case of whatever we're talking about.

1. He says breaking a bond is not a choice, like turning away from the Force, and yet the Exile did this already.
What is this supposed to prove? So because the Exile from a certain point of view did one thing that was said to be sort of impossible, she can do another? Furthermore, the Exile did not choose to turn from the Force. The Jedi explain that she involuntarily deafened herself to it to defend herself from what happened at Malachor; and Kreia sums it up (depending on your alignment, I think) as either "you were afraid" or "you had no choice".

"A bond between two living beings is not something easily broken. It is not a choice... it is like breaking a feeling. Like turning away from the Force. To break a bond, your feelings would have to change, or one of you would have to die - but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply... it would simply be empty, a wound."
2. It's not the act of falling to the dark side that would break the bond, it's the feelings that form the bond changing, causing it to break; Kreia betrays the Exile, the Exile's feelings about her change, simple.
But everyone in the game after Kreia's betrayal still acts as though the bond is there and completely intact. The Exile's still like "****, if I don't go after her Atris'll kill her and I'll die"; and if she kills Atris, Kreia still contacts her as strongly through their bond as ever, and tells her that she'll kill herself if the Exile doesn't follow her to Malachor.

Further, this entire viewpoint of yours hinges on the assumption that an actual trusting relationship with emotional, that is, feeling-based connections (hence the emphasis above) developed between the Exile and Kreia; but nowhere in the game is this actually a guarantee (not even in the canon timeline, as influence with Kreia is independent of alignment and I don't recall the Revan novel ever weighing in on the matter). It's just as easy for the Exile, from the beginning to the end, to stay away from her as much as possible during the journey, or to never do anything that raises influence with her, or to do all the things that piss her off (which, incidentally, include the majority of the game's light-sided choices) because they don't conform to her teachings - and the bond is still as there as ever, regardless of which path is taken; the same whether Kreia approves or disapproves of you. Isn't that the entire narrative point of the bond - that you, the Exile, are stuck with Kreia no matter how much you hate her or don't trust her? That you can't kill her or get rid of her, and that you have to find a way to get rid of the bond first?

You say that the bond is weakened/broken by the changing of the feelings that formed the bond - but this bond was never formed by feelings in the first place. It was formed unconsciously, unnaturally quickly, and in a completely non-standard manner while both of them were lying comatose in the Peragus Facility's sickbay.

JCarter426
04-09-2012, 04:49 AM
Firstly, yes, lack of explanation in the game does make it a plot hole (regardless what amounts of careless design and unfortunate happenstance may or may not be responsible). Take AotC as an example: if the two scenes where Obi-Wan takes the poison dart used by Jango and where he shows it to Dexter - thus establishing Kamino's connection to the assassination plot - were inexplicably not in the film, yet he just showed up at Kamino anyway later on, we would call that a plot hole, wouldn't we?

Better yet, if in KotOR I the player-character's true identity as Revan was to go completely unmentioned after the player leaves the Leviathan, even unto the end of the game - or if Carth's personal connection to Saul Karath was present in your conversations with him but went completely unmentioned on the Leviathan itself - would we not call that a plot hole?

The exact same thing is done with the Exile and Kreia's Force bond here. Past a certain point it is neither mentioned nor seen again.
It's not the same scenario at all because the explanation is already there. It's just not stated in as clear terms at the end of the game. Like a lot of things, it's left open to your interpretation. Your interpretation seems to be "there is no possible interpretation", but I don't agree with that. There are clues throughout the game.
I'm glad that you're willing to admit that, but please in any future debates be courteous enough to not even mention the "Kreia = Liar" card, even conjecturally, unless you're willing to bring up a potential motive for her lying in the case of whatever we're talking about.
She has plenty of motive, but that's beside the point since this is simply one possible explanation, and I don't think it explains everything myself.

What is this supposed to prove? So because the Exile from a certain point of view did one thing that was said to be sort of impossible, she can do another?
I'm just pointing out that no one in the game really seems to know how the Force works, and you're basing your argument on the fact that because the certain characters can't explain certain events means there is no possible explanation, when that's clearly not true.
Furthermore, the Exile did not choose to turn from the Force. The Jedi explain that she involuntarily deafened herself to it to defend herself from what happened at Malachor; and Kreia sums it up (depending on your alignment, I think) as either "you were afraid" or "you had no choice".
Wait, wait, wait. The only line that suggests it was not a choice is the one you mentioned, which is only for the dark sided Exile anyway - and that version if the story is filled with so many plot holes that there's no point in arguing about it. In any case, it is repeatedly referred to as the Exile's choice, by everyone in the game - Kreia, the masters, Atris, even Sion. It may have been an unconscious choice, but it was still a choice.
But everyone in the game after Kreia's betrayal still acts as though the bond is there and completely intact. The Exile's still like "****, if I don't go after her Atris'll kill her and I'll die"
Yes, but... well, Kreia lies. And yes, there is a motivation for it - as you said, she manipulates the Exile with this information.
and if she kills Atris, Kreia still contacts her as strongly through their bond as ever, and tells her that she'll kill herself if the Exile doesn't follow her to Malachor.
No, this is incorrect. In the scene you are thinking of, this is just a projection of Kreia from Atris' Sith holocrons; Kreia specifically says she is not contacting the Exile through the bond. This might mean the bond is already weaker at this point.

But I don't see how this is relevant. The threat is only meant to get you to Malachor; by then, Kreia has you where she wants you. So even if killing Kreia will kill you, you don't really have a choice because she'll kill you if you don't anyway. So the Exile's survival is the only issue.

Second, at no point is it suggested that you'll die if you kill Kreia; the only concern is someone else killing Kreia and the Exile feeling Kreia's pain so strongly that it would be lethal. Note that it only happens once in the game (and once more in cut content) and it only happens when it does because the Exile is caught by surprise. Kreia explains that when they are in battle, their minds are more focused. So if they are battling each other, it shouldn't be any different. In short, Kreia threatens to kill herself if you won't come to Malachor to fight her; this very well might kill you. However, this doesn't prevent you from killing her yourself.
Further, this entire viewpoint of yours hinges on the assumption that an actual trusting relationship with emotional, that is, feeling-based connections (hence the emphasis above) developed between the Exile and Kreia; but nowhere in the game is this actually a guarantee (not even in the canon timeline, as influence with Kreia is independent of alignment and I don't recall the Revan novel ever weighing in on the matter). It's just as easy for the Exile, from the beginning to the end, to stay away from her as much as possible during the journey, or to never do anything that raises influence with her, or to do all the things that piss her off (which, incidentally, include the majority of the game's light-sided choices) because they don't conform to her teachings - and the bond is still as there as ever, regardless of which path is taken; the same whether Kreia approves or disapproves of you. Isn't that the entire narrative point of the bond - that you, the Exile, are stuck with Kreia no matter how much you hate her or don't trust her? That you can't kill her or get rid of her, and that you have to find a way to get rid of the bond first?

You say that the bond is weakened/broken by the changing of the feelings that formed the bond - but this bond was never formed by feelings in the first place. It was formed unconsciously, unnaturally quickly, and in a completely non-standard manner while both of them were lying comatose in the Peragus Facility's sickbay.
First, that's not the entire basis of my viewpoint. The entire basis of my viewpoint is that there are several explanations for how the bond could have broken, based on hints that are present in the game. Just because it isn't clearly stated doesn't mean it isn't there.

Second, while that's an interesting point, this isn't something that's established in the game. We don't know that the bond doesn't act any differently from a normal bond - at least, what little we are told about how normal bonds work to begin with - apart from the fact that it was formed more quickly and appears stronger than normal bonds. Neither of these facts precludes it from behaving like a normal bond in any other respect - i.e. based on the feelings between the bonded individuals. The Exile's ability is unusual, not necessarily unnatural.

In any case, there are a lot of possible explanations that are present in the game. If you want to ignore them, that's your business.

arsenalforever
04-09-2012, 12:07 PM
Kreia wants to use the Exile to end the force and start echoes which never reach the end, and which keep echoing throughout the galaxy. But this doesn't make sense?


I understand that the Exile was a strong user of the Force and she DID cut herself off from the Force at Malachor because if she would not have done so, she would have died due to the number of bonds she had formed.

But what I don't understand is, how Kreia wants to use this trait of the Exile to end the Force? And if the bond never really existed between the Exile and Kreia, why did the Exile feel the pain when Sion cut Kreia's hand off? I really don't understand what Kreia achieved by doing what she did with the Exile

Rtas Vadum
04-09-2012, 08:05 PM
But what I don't understand is, how Kreia wants to use this trait of the Exile to end the Force? And if the bond never really existed between the Exile and Kreia, why did the Exile feel the pain when Sion cut Kreia's hand off? I really don't understand what Kreia achieved by doing what she did with the Exile

In the instance that Sion cuts her hand off, the Exile couldn't possibly be prepared, nor could he/she have known it was going to happen. Where at any other point in the game that the Exile has Kreia in the party, it is obvious from the start that she might be injured, along with it being obvious to Kreia that the Exile might take a few hits(which, in most cases it isn't grievous wounds, but still...). Kreia explains this when you first talk to her aboard the Hawk.

The only instances which might not make sense with this logic, are the one(or two) times which the party is supposed to believe the Exile is dead. Either way, it is likely either Kreia would be able to prepare herself in some way, or in the instance within the Enclave(if that is one of the instances), then, in some way, Kreia was prepared for it to happen, even if the Exile wasn't.

As for her goal, if it can be achieved as such, who knows. For one, the very reason that she wanted to do something like that, is purely because she viewed it like a disease, something that might not kill her, but still something that is going to dictate her actions. Consider that she was a Sith Lord, and a Jedi Master, and that both sides exiled her at some point. Through this, she didn't look at the sides to hate, she looked at what stands at the core of both - the force itself. But that isn't it. Another goal she has, is to dispose of the current Jedi/Sith, so their ideals will fade, as new ones rise to replace them. The reason you have to kill her, even as a Jedi, is because her very nature has her do the things she hates, because she is still part of the Jedi/Sith that she wishes to eliminate.

arsenalforever
04-10-2012, 11:33 PM
And how does she exactly plan to end the Force using the Exile?

Obi-Wan Bologna
04-11-2012, 03:03 PM
*cough* TSLRCM *cough*
:D

Sorry, I've only played the xbox version. lol

Rtas Vadum
04-11-2012, 07:13 PM
And how does she exactly plan to end the Force using the Exile?

The same thing that happened to the Exile, but to force it on anyone who can feel/use the force. To create an echo so large, it is felt by all, forcing them to either sever their connection to the force, or die in the attempt.

As for what an echo is, it seems to be almost any event, but the sort wanted here is of the traumatic sort. Such as Malachor, when the Exile stood on the bridge of a ship, watching as those around Malachor where sucked into the planet's gravity well, destroying them and killing their occupants. Being so close, being able to hear it so loudly, the Exile needed to abandon the force, to survive, if nothing else.

arsenalforever
04-13-2012, 07:28 AM
I understand that echoes and disturbances occur in the Force when many deaths take place at once or due to mass destruction. But these echoes could be created by Nihilius and the other Sith who were capable of mass destruction. What I don't understand is why Kreia couldn't achieve what she wanted WITHOUT the Exile?

Also I found this bit on Wookiepedia:

Traya then returned to Malachor V, where she intended to sacrifice herself to open up the larger wound in the Force in order to destroy it

What does the above line mean?

Also there is a cut scene in which Kreia expresses her disgust for machines and electrocutes T3-M4. What is the significance of this scene in the story

Another thing which comes in my mind is, how did Kreia and T3-M4 reunite and take possession of the Ebon Hawk in the first place?

Rtas Vadum
04-13-2012, 02:04 PM
I understand that echoes and disturbances occur in the Force when many deaths take place at once or due to mass destruction. But these echoes could be created by Nihilius and the other Sith who were capable of mass destruction. What I don't understand is why Kreia couldn't achieve what she wanted WITHOUT the Exile?

The Exile is an open wound. Where Nihilus might be as well, the idea that she could approach him for such a task is unlikely. But since the Exile is obviously more open to influence, more susceptible to being pointed in the direction Kreia wanted, it makes it somewhat obvious who she would chose.


Also there is a cut scene in which Kreia expresses her disgust for machines and electrocutes T3-M4. What is the significance of this scene in the story


You can't influence a machine, like you can a man. Where it would be easy for her to direct a human or alien to do as she wished, with a machine, she could not. She lacks knowledge on the inner workings of droids and the like, though she might have some base knowledge of piloting, if nothing else. But as to why she would attack T3, is due to the fact that she hates that the Exile would rely on something she cannot completely understand and control. When you obtain her help in learning to read thoughts, she mentions that she cannot hear anything from the droids, where the exile could 'hear' a catch in the hyper-drive, due to he or she having some knowledge of machines.


Another thing which comes in my mind is, how did Kreia and T3-M4 reunite and take possession of the Ebon Hawk in the first place?

Kreia says that Revan left "the Hawk and it's machines" behind(presumably on Malachor, though where is anyone's guess). I'd guess that Kreia would've simply found the hawk after she was betrayed by the Sith, and left the planet on it.

arsenalforever
04-15-2012, 02:53 AM
Okay so the Exile is an open wound in the Force but how does making the Exile kill her at Malachor help her achieve what she wanted? How does all this create echoes in the Force?

Another thing, was it the mass destruction and loss of countless lives at Malachor the reason for the echoes in the Force, or was it the the action of the Exile which cut her off from the Force responsible for the echoes?

What would have happened if the Exile had died at the Trayus Academy? Would Kreia's mission be accomplished?


The Force existed in all life, and when many lives were extinguished, especially in a short period of time, a wound was created.

But Kreia's plan did NOT involve the loss of many lives in a short period of time. It only involved battling the Exile at the Malachor. But how would such a battle create an echo?

Rtas Vadum
04-15-2012, 03:52 AM
Okay so the Exile is an open wound in the Force but how does making the Exile kill her at Malachor help her achieve what she wanted? How does all this create echoes in the Force?

By that point, her goal had changed, though it was a simplified version of her previous one. Having the Exile kill her on Malachor is for one reason - she is the last remaining member of the Jedi Order, and of the Sith. With her death, the ideals that destroyed the Jedi, and tore apart the Sith(even though Sith rarely change) would die with her.


Another thing, was it the mass destruction and loss of countless lives at Malachor the reason for the echoes in the Force, or was it the the action of the Exile which cut her off from the Force responsible for the echoes?

It isn't just Malachor. Dantooine, Telos, and even Taris(even if this isn't a location in the game) are places in which an echo can be felt. However, the echo caused by Malachor is different, in it can be felt within the Exile.


What would have happened if the Exile had died at the Trayus Academy? Would Kreia's mission be accomplished?

No, since she would still be alive. Her wish to destroy the force does go along with the fact that she holds on to ideals of the Jedi and the Sith, and if she does not die, either by the Exile's hand, or with the death of the force, her entire plan fails. It might still be successful if no one could use the force, but I don't think it goes that far.


But Kreia's plan did NOT involve the loss of many lives in a short period of time. It only involved battling the Exile at the Malachor. But how would such a battle create an echo?

Beyond Jedi or Sith in hiding, or those who have given up the force, she and the Exile are similar. By that, I mean that Kreia has been a part of the Jedi and the Sith, while the Exile, is the last of the Jedi(even if it is just in name only). Either of their deaths is going to cause an echo, and one of them must die. With the Exile, the Jedi falls, and Kreia would see the end of the force, if such a thing is possible. And of course, with Kreia's death, again, the former order, and ideals of the Jedi and Sith die, while a new order is allowed to replace them, perhaps avoiding the failings which were so prevalent.

arsenalforever
04-15-2012, 05:48 AM
No, since she would still be alive. Her wish to destroy the force does go along with the fact that she holds on to ideals of the Jedi and the Sith, and if she does not die, either by the Exile's hand, or with the death of the force, her entire plan fails. It might still be successful if no one could use the force, but I don't think it goes that far.


Why would her plan fail if someone other than the Exile kills her?


Either of their deaths is going to cause an echo,

But echoes are caused when many lives are extinguished at once. Kenobi felt it when Darth Vader destroyed Alderaan, The Jedi on Dantooine felt it when Malak destroyed Taris but how could the death of a single individual like the Exile or Kreia send an echo in the force?

The Exile is not the last of the Jedi, what about the Lost Jedi like Atton, Bao-Dur, Mical, Visas, Mira?

RevMg
04-15-2012, 06:28 AM
Why would her plan fail if someone other than the Exile kills her?




But echoes are caused when many lives are extinguished at once. Kenobi felt it when Darth Vader destroyed Alderaan, The Jedi on Dantooine felt it when Malak destroyed Taris but how could the death of a single individual like the Exile or Kreia send an echo in the force?

The Exile is not the last of the Jedi, what about the Lost Jedi like Atton, Bao-Dur, Mical, Visas, Mira?

I feel we need to clarify. Echoes and wounds are not the same. Echoes are created by the latter but not only. It was underlined in TSL that even small things can leave the mark upon the galaxy and the death of powerful force user would qualify for that. (like Sidious's death was felt across the Galaxy by those attuned to the Force)

The Exile is the last of the Jedi from certain point of view. In other words (s)he is the last from the old Order, while his/her students will create a new Order. Or to be more specific, Exile has ties to the old order but (s)he is not rooted in it like Kreia.

arsenalforever
04-15-2012, 07:36 AM
And why would Kreia's plan fail if she was killed by someone other than the Exile? So echoes are created when a strong force user dies? Suppose an echo is sent when a strong force user dies, say the Exile, how would you compare the magnitude of this echo with that of the wound created when a planet, say Katarr is devastated? Kreia wanted a WOUND right?

And can we draw any points of similarity in the bonds shared by Kreia and the Exile and that shared by Nihilius and Visas Marr? Did the bond between the latter break when Visas' alignment changed?

The Exile is termed as a wound in the force because he was able to (involuntarily) give up the Force while other Jedi who fought in the Mandalorian wars didn't NEED to break their connection to the force because they didn't have the ability to form such strong bonds with companions like the Exile did and even if they DID form strong bonds with companions, they had become so dependent on the Force that they couldn't break their connection to it, right?


After Surik defeated Traya, she ordered the generator's activation, destroying the planet and sealing the wound, once and for all


The Exile herself was the wound, then how does destroying Malachor seal the wound?


You are a breach that must be closed. You transmit your pain, your suffering through the Force. Within you we see something worse than the teachings of the Sith. What you carry may mean the death of the Force… and the death of the Jedi.


How does the exile transmit pain and suffering through the Force?


Thereafter, Surik was deafened to the Force, but she continued to project the echoes of the suffering that she had witnessed


Is there any example of Surik (The Exile) projecting the echoes of the suffering that she had witnessed?

Rtas Vadum
04-15-2012, 04:17 PM
And why would Kreia's plan fail if she was killed by someone other than the Exile? So echoes are created when a strong force user dies? Suppose an echo is sent when a strong force user dies, say the Exile, how would you compare the magnitude of this echo with that of the wound created when a planet, say Katarr is devastated? Kreia wanted a WOUND right?

You do realize that there is literally no one else to kill her? Sion? He knows he can't, and doesn't even seem to try. The Jedi you've trained? They try that, and it doesn't work. So the Exile is the only one who can, mostly because she is the only one around that can.

As for the echo, it is simple. With her death, the ideals of the old Jedi order die with her. Thus, an echo.


The Exile is termed as a wound in the force because he was able to (involuntarily) give up the Force while other Jedi who fought in the Mandalorian wars didn't NEED to break their connection to the force because they didn't have the ability to form such strong bonds with companions like the Exile did and even if they DID form strong bonds with companions, they had become so dependent on the Force that they couldn't break their connection to it, right?

Imagine the the Exile forming these bonds as her making friends. Perhaps not good friends, but still people that she would know enough about to care, perhaps even some of them Jedi she would be close with, etc. Then imagine the deaths at Malachor, these Jedi that she has connections to, are killed, almost before her eyes(admittedly it was that she watched from the bridge of a ship, but still...). As this happens, not only does she feel it, she feels their emotions, their screams, their pain.

arsenalforever
04-16-2012, 10:58 AM
Kreia could have allowed herself to be killed by Sion on the Harbinger. I don't understand why she underwent the pain of befriending the Exile, teaching her stuff, and finally betraying her.

I know she has a grudge with the Force as she was exiled by BOTH the Jedi and the Sith, and it is the Force which drives both these parties.

As for the echo, it is simple. With her death, the ideals of the old Jedi order die with her. Thus, an echo.

So Kreia's death will cause echoes as you mentioned because the ideals of the old Jedi Order would die with her, but how does dying at the hands of the Exile increase the magnitude of the echoes?

Wouldn't echoes by generated if she died at the hands of someone else like Sion on the Harbinger?

After Surik defeated Traya, she ordered the generator's activation, destroying the planet and sealing the wound, once and for all

The Exile herself was the wound, then how does destroying Malachor seal the wound?

Rtas Vadum
04-20-2012, 02:40 PM
Kreia could have allowed herself to be killed by Sion on the Harbinger. I don't understand why she underwent the pain of befriending the Exile, teaching her stuff, and finally betraying her.

If she had allowed Sion to kill her there, it would have been foolish. What would've stopped him from tracking the Exile down and killing her, since at that point(even if it would be some time after escaping Peragus), it is doubtful the Exile could take him on and win. There is also the possibliy of the Exile dying along with her, but that is obvious at this point. Also, with Kreia gone, the Exile has no teacher, and also no direction. No notion of where the other Jedi are, much less a reason to seek them out.


So Kreia's death will cause echoes as you mentioned because the ideals of the old Jedi Order would die with her, but how does dying at the hands of the Exile increase the magnitude of the echoes?

With her death at the hands of the Exile, at that point on Malachor, it allows for things that it wouldn't otherwise. Say if the Exile finds out about her being a Sith on the Ebon Hawk, and kills her right there. That still leaves Nihilus, Sion, along with Atris and any other Jedi that remain, all set in their views of the force, and the galaxy. Perhaps it would work out the same way, but the Enclave scenes would not, especially if playing a LS Exile.


The Exile herself was the wound, then how does destroying Malachor seal the wound?

If it does, or if sealing them is possible, I can't say. It is just like real places that have had tragic events happen. So long as there is anyone to tell the story, or someone to know of it, the event doesn't fade from memory, even if it might be from the memory of someone who only learned of the event from a book, or a teacher. Even if Malachor is destroyed, that does not change the fact that people died there, nor does it change what happened. But the main reason for the Planet's destruction is the Sith presence, along with the knowledge that is within the Academy.

RevMg
04-24-2012, 04:26 AM
Hmm, anyone knows when Kreia meet with Revan for the last time? It was before he left for the Mandalorian Wars, right? Or is there a chance they met on Malachor V? Before Revan left for Unknown Regions. My memories about that are bit clouded. (yea i know, that according to the new canon he wasn't even there but let's stick to what's in the game;p)

Rtas Vadum
04-24-2012, 06:45 AM
Hmm, anyone knows when Kreia meet with Revan for the last time? It was before he left for the Mandalorian Wars, right? Or is there a chance they met on Malachor V? Before Revan left for Unknown Regions. My memories about that are bit clouded. (yea i know, that according to the new canon he wasn't even there but let's stick to what's in the game;p)

Probably before the Mandalorian wars, due to him going to her, to find out "how one would best leave the order". It is possible that she gained power as a Sith, just as Revan would've began remembering what he'd forgotten, though it happening just after he'd left the Ebon Hawk and T3 on Malachor seems more probable, since it would be sometime after the end of K1 that she becomes such, and sometime before the start of TSL that she is betrayed by the Sith.

As for him not being on Malachor in TOR's canon, it has to leave much of TSL in the dust, aside from the Exile, namely the very thing that almost runs the plot of TSL, or is at least, an integral part of it. What is that? Not the Exile, but the Ebon Hawk. If the idea is, that if Revan left it and T3 on Malachor, Kreia would've used it after her betrayal by Sion and Nihilus, to leave Malachor and seek out the Exile. Also, if it means he'd never set foot on Malachor(during or after the Mandalorian wars, or even after the end of the Jedi Civil war, when he would've remembered the planet), only viewing it from a ship, how could he possibly know about the real threat, since that is where TSL says he learned of it? But either way, I can't see how it fits, if Revan was never on Malachor.

arsenalforever
04-24-2012, 08:00 AM
Kreia's lucky that Sion and Nihlius let her leave out of Malachor alive. The Sith are not known for such acts of kindness lol

Kreia only wants to die to create echoes doesn't she? It doesn't matter who kills her as long as she ends up dead right? No matter who kills her, the ideals of the Old Jedi Order die with her right?


After Surik defeated Traya, she ordered the generator's activation, destroying the planet and sealing the wound, once and for all


I got this line from Wookiepedia.

And Rtas Vadum, what is your opinion on the bond shared by Visas Marr and Nihilius?

JCarter426
04-25-2012, 04:34 PM
Kreia's lucky that Sion and Nihlius let her leave out of Malachor alive. The Sith are not known for such acts of kindness lol
They didn't let her live. They thought they had killed her. She is difficult to kill.
Kreia only wants to die to create echoes doesn't she? It doesn't matter who kills her as long as she ends up dead right? No matter who kills her, the ideals of the Old Jedi Order die with her right?
No, she wants her apprentice to kill her - that's the way of the Sith, and fits with her philosophy of learning through conflict. The Exile gave up the Force and Kreia respects that, she wants the Exile to grow stronger. And it's also a bit of an ego trip, because none of her other apprentices could kill her, which would suggest she's a horrible teacher who, without the Exile, would leave behind no legacy.

arsenalforever
04-28-2012, 06:30 AM
Wounds in the Force were created whenever a massive loss of life occurred. All life in the galaxy was interconnected and when a significant number of lives were suddenly ended, the Force sustained a localized injury much like a sentient who had lost a limb. The epicenter of the wound became a dark place, filled with the reverberating echoes of the pain, terror, and suffering of the life forms who had lost their lives. Wounds in the Force were most often centered in astrographical locations where traumatic events took place, such as Malachor V or Alderaan, but they could also form within individuals such as Meetra Surik or Darth Nihilus.


So the death of Kreia at the hands of the Exile would create echoes because with her death die the ideals of the old jedi order right? And she wants to continue the "tradition" of the Sith in which the apprentice kills the master once the former is stronger?

And why does Wookiepedia say that the final destruction of Malachor "sealed" the wound?


It seems that at the times of stress - and pain, if it catches us unawares, then the pain is transmitted between us


Kreia says the above line to the Exile on the Ebon Hawk. She wasn't lying this time and at Malachor, the two of them were not caught unaware, thus Kreia's death DID NOT lead to the Exile's death.

Another thing, when Moza the Ithorian visits us on Telos for the first time in Residential Module 082 he says that upon the Exile's arrival, Chodo Habat felt a "disturbance or echo in the force"

So does even a simple thing like the Exile's arrival on Telos create echoes in the Force? Just because of what the Exile went through at Malachor V, his arrival on planets can be sensed by other Force sensitives?

Obi-Wan Bologna
04-28-2012, 03:14 PM
So the death of Kreia at the hands of the Exile would create echoes because with her death die the ideals of the old jedi order right? And she wants to continue the "tradition" of the Sith in which the apprentice kills the master once the former is stronger?

And why does Wookiepedia say that the final destruction of Malachor "sealed" the wound?



Kreia says the above line to the Exile on the Ebon Hawk. She wasn't lying this time and at Malachor, the two of them were not caught unaware, thus Kreia's death DID NOT lead to the Exile's death.

Another thing, when Moza the Ithorian visits us on Telos for the first time in Residential Module 082 he says that upon the Exile's arrival, Chodo Habat felt a "disturbance or echo in the force"

So does even a simple thing like the Exile's arrival on Telos create echoes in the Force? Just because of what the Exile went through at Malachor V, his arrival on planets can be sensed by other Force sensitives?

Well that is nothing new, we knew of that in the first Star Wars movie where Vader senses Obi-Wan on board the Death Star

arsenalforever
04-29-2012, 10:05 AM
I wanted to ask something about Nihilius too. He showed something to Visas which ruined her ability to see through the Force. What did he show her? Did her eyes function normally before?

And what does she do to the Exile's eyes when we first encounter and fight with her? I asked Kreia but she says that Visas didn't do anything.

And just because she lost to the Exile, Visas stopped serving Nihilus? How come?

Is there a way to use her Force sight in the game? I tried looking using Visas in first person mode but wasn't able to see anything special?

TKA-001
04-29-2012, 02:32 PM
And what does she do to the Exile's eyes when we first encounter and fight with her? I asked Kreia but she says that Visas didn't do anything.
As I understand it, during your fight with Visas she's supposed to hit you with some Force power that makes it so you see everything through the funky technicolor Force sight effect; but it was cut or they forgot to actually put that part in, but the dialogue where you discuss it with Kreia still remains.

And just because she lost to the Exile, Visas stopped serving Nihilus? How come?
I don't quite remember it all, but I figure that she got screwed up in the head when she fails to capture you, and you don't kill her. And if you're male, then after the Jedi get killed on Dantooine she gives you some sappy talk about how she loved you ever since she felt you through the Force or some ****. I only remember bits and pieces.

Furthermore, Nihilus told Visas to bring you to her; so I imagine that in some sense Visas considers herself to be fulfilling that assignment by protecting you, and you plan on running into Nihilus eventually anyway.

Is there a way to use her Force sight in the game? I tried looking using Visas in first person mode but wasn't able to see anything special?
It should work when you use first-person mode as either Visas or Kreia; I think that it doesn't work unless the game is patched or something, but I don't remember. I also think that if you have high enough influence with Visas you can ask her to teach you the Force sight thingy, and it's like a power you can activate which, while it does create the visual effect, doesn't actually do anything.

arsenalforever
05-02-2012, 07:38 AM
Taken aboard Nihilus's ship, she awoke to find that the flesh where her eyes would have been had been removed. Distraught, she sought out the Dark Lord, questioning why she alone had been spared.

Fractured and vulnerable at best, overwhelmed by the dark power surrounding him, Marr allowed Nihilus to take her for his own. In an attempt to make her believe in his cause, Nihilus showed her a vision, forcing her to see the galaxy in a way that her people never could; sentient beings on other planets, disconnected from the life surrounding them, unable to feel the Force.

The vision severely damaged Marr's Force Sight—which she, as a Miraluka, had to solely rely on, having no physical sight—and she became convinced that all life must die.




I found the above lines on Wookiepedia but they don't seem to make any sense? What did Nihilus show Visas?

And I believe that the Exile's reconnection to the Force sent out echoes which was the reason that Nihilus and Visas sensed her in the first place? Am I right?

Rtas Vadum
05-03-2012, 03:09 AM
I found the above lines on Wookiepedia but they don't seem to make any sense? What did Nihilus show Visas?

He would show her the world(likely universe in this case) as he saw it. As she likely was at that point, a sole survivor on a decimated planet, it would have been bad enough to see the world through the force, and subsequently see every flame of life around you suddenly extinguished, is bad enough(along with having a certain resemblance to the Exile). But then to have Nihilus find her, and open her eyes to the dead world, likely far worse than she had been able to see it otherwise, is likely what damaged her sight.


And I believe that the Exile's reconnection to the Force sent out echoes which was the reason that Nihilus and Visas sensed her in the first place? Am I right?

Yes, and no. Everything in the galaxy feels the force, but it takes something to be able to perceive it in a way that one can make use of it. The sort that occurs when the Exile first regains the force can almost be seen like the birth of a child - as much as they might be tied to the force, it is hard to tell how well. However, the point that Nihlius realizes that you might be a threat to him, is when the Exile obtains a sufficient alignment(I'm not sure exactly when this is, likely about 25% either way shows the cut-scenes that prelude Visas' arrival).

arsenalforever
05-03-2012, 06:08 AM
The vision severely damaged Marr's Force Sight—which she, as a Miraluka, had to solely rely on, having no physical sight—and she became convinced that all life must die.


In an attempt to make her believe in his cause, Nihilus showed her a vision, forcing her to see the galaxy in a way that her people never could; sentient beings on other planets, disconnected from the life surrounding them, unable to feel the Force.

He showed her people living without the Force and this damaged her vision? And she became convinced that all life must die?


But then why did she pledge herself to the Exile after being given mercy? What did she see in the Exile? She just sensed the Exile through the force but nothing more right?

JCarter426
05-03-2012, 01:19 PM
Yes, and no. Everything in the galaxy feels the force, but it takes something to be able to perceive it in a way that one can make use of it. The sort that occurs when the Exile first regains the force can almost be seen like the birth of a child - as much as they might be tied to the force, it is hard to tell how well. However, the point that Nihlius realizes that you might be a threat to him, is when the Exile obtains a sufficient alignment(I'm not sure exactly when this is, likely about 25% either way shows the cut-scenes that prelude Visas' arrival).
It triggers when you alignment reaches 25 or 75 (75% dark or light), or you've gained 50 total alignment points, or after you find your third master. At least that's what the script says it's supposed to do; it also says it doesn't fire until after you have left Telos and arrived on another planet, but I'm pretty sure that's not true.

They're able to sense the Exile at this because the Exile casts such strong echoes in the Force - basically, the more stuff you do, the stronger your presence becomes, more noticeable. It's not really that they couldn't sense it before... they just couldn't discern the Exile from the rest of the universe. Nihilus seems especially blind to it, because they're both wounds in the Force; he's blinded by all his power, which casts the same kind of echo. Visas, however, is able to sense a subtle difference between them, and so she could track down the Exile.
He showed her people living without the Force and this damaged her vision? And she became convinced that all life must die?
No, it's... it's a bit more complicated than that. The Jedi - all Force users, really - believe that nothing can exist without the Force, at least not in this form. It's as part of the universe as gravity, electromagnetism, or the nuclear forces. It always has been and it always will be. But Nihilus exists only to feed on the Force, to destroy life. He's like a black hole - a point where the laws of the universe as we understand them cease to function. Nihilus showed Visas the universe as he sees it... the echo that he was creating, to devour the universe. And it scares the hell out of her. I think it drives her a big crazy, she gets Stockholm syndrome on a galactic scale. She clings to the belief that such a being must exist for a reason, that he's bigger than the universe, that the universe needs to die to feed his hunger.
But then why did she pledge herself to the Exile after being given mercy? What did she see in the Exile? She just sensed the Exile through the force but nothing more right?
The Exile is proof that life can exist without the Force, and she sees in this a power that rivals Nihilus.

arsenalforever
05-06-2012, 07:45 AM
Thanks a lot.

Another thing, GOTO wanted the Jedi alive in order to stabilize the Republic. He himself said that they were no use to him dead, but the HK-50's we encounter always want to kill the Exile, why?

And if we have G0-T0 in our party whilst encountering the HK-50's will he tell them to stop hunting me? I tried that but he doesn't say anything to the HK-50's.

And Zez Kai Ell himself said to the Exile that he/she was right in going to the war and that he had lost belief in Jedi Teachings. He laments the Council's decision to exile us and says that the Jedi Council was very arrogant, but when we return to Dantooine, he seems to be looking forward to cutting the Exile off from the Force and all the other masters behave just like Vrook. Doesn't that piss you off?

EDIT:

Ooh and another thing, why are the HK-50's interested in obtaining Vogga's Launch Codes from T3-M4 in Vogga's Warehouse?

TKA-001
05-06-2012, 09:56 AM
Another thing, GOTO wanted the Jedi alive in order to stabilize the Republic. He himself said that they were no use to him dead, but the HK-50's we encounter always want to kill the Exile, why?
Frankly, I think it's a plot hole. He wants you to help him preserve the Republic, so he sends a ****ton of droids and people (why not just messengers?) to kill you so that he can hire you. The bounty hunters are constantly telling you that "no one will care as long as I bring them your carcass", so clearly he didn't do a very good job at emphasizing the "alive" part.

And if we have G0-T0 in our party whilst encountering the HK-50's will he tell them to stop hunting me? I tried that but he doesn't say anything to the HK-50's.
I don't remember ever being attacked by HK-50s (after Telos) in an unmodded game.

And Zez Kai Ell himself said to the Exile that he/she was right in going to the war and that he had lost belief in Jedi Teachings. He laments the Council's decision to exile us and says that the Jedi Council was very arrogant, but when we return to Dantooine, he seems to be looking forward to cutting the Exile off from the Force and all the other masters behave just like Vrook. Doesn't that piss you off?
Technically Zez never (I think) says that she were right to join the war, just that the Council made a grave mistake in showing her the door instead of trying to understand why their Jedi kept falling to the dark side (or something).

As for his apparent change of mind, it is presumed that Vrook and Kavar spoke to him off-screen and convinced him to go along with their sentencing of the Exile (assuming he was every actually against it in the first place).

Ooh and another thing, why are the HK-50's interested in obtaining Vogga's Launch Codes from T3-M4 in Vogga's Warehouse?
Because the HK-50s work for Goto (though this is never confirmed in an unmodded game) and Goto uses the codes to locate and hijack Vogga's ships.

On another note, I wonder why the HKs need to steal the launch codes from T3 if Goto's apparently been hijacking the freighters for some time. And why Vogga's one-story warehouse is literally next-door to his apartmen- I mean, his "palace". :tophat1:

JCarter426
05-06-2012, 10:00 PM
Another thing, GOTO wanted the Jedi alive in order to stabilize the Republic. He himself said that they were no use to him dead, but the HK-50's we encounter always want to kill the Exile, why?
Frankly, I think it's a plot hole. He wants you to help him preserve the Republic, so he sends a ****ton of droids and people (why not just messengers?) to kill you so that he can hire you. The bounty hunters are constantly telling you that "no one will care as long as I bring them your carcass", so clearly he didn't do a very good job at emphasizing the "alive" part.
The HKs don't want to kill the Exile. They are quite clear about this. They don't have any problem seriously wounding the Exile in the process, but their intent is not to kill.

On the other hand, the HKs probably like killing as much as their predecessor, so they could just be lying; the bounty hunters in general seem to be looking for an excuse to kill the Exile, even if that's against Goto's orders. So it's not a plot hole; Goto explicitly says they are going against his orders, but that he doesn't mind much because any Jedi who could be killed by bounty hunters is worthless to him.
And Zez Kai Ell himself said to the Exile that he/she was right in going to the war and that he had lost belief in Jedi Teachings. He laments the Council's decision to exile us and says that the Jedi Council was very arrogant, but when we return to Dantooine, he seems to be looking forward to cutting the Exile off from the Force and all the other masters behave just like Vrook. Doesn't that piss you off?
Technically Zez never (I think) says that she were right to join the war, just that the Council made a grave mistake in showing her the door instead of trying to understand why their Jedi kept falling to the dark side (or something).
Nah, he flat out says "You were right to do what you did. Everything you did."
As for his apparent change of mind, it is presumed that Vrook and Kavar spoke to him off-screen and convinced him to go along with their sentencing of the Exile (assuming he was every actually against it in the first place).
I don't really think changed his mind, he was just a hypocrite. I agree the others likely coaxed him - particularly Kavar, since he seems to do whatever Kavar says - but I don't think he ever had a change of heart. He and Vrook are rather consistent in their feelings... it's Kavar who stabs you in the back.
Because the HK-50s work for Goto (though this is never confirmed in an unmodded game) and Goto uses the codes to locate and hijack Vogga's ships.
No mods needed, he'll admit to it if you have enough influence to ask him about his operations. They don't work exclusively for Goto, though.
On another note, I wonder why the HKs need to steal the launch codes from T3 if Goto's apparently been hijacking the freighters for some time.
They never say they were stealing them, just that they wouldn't let T3 leave with them. However, I can't recall if they're among the bounty hunters who board Goto's yacht. Perhaps they did want the codes, to use as leverage against Goto.
And why Vogga's one-story warehouse is literally next-door to his apartmen- I mean, his "palace". :tophat1:
That wasn't his usual abode. All the hijacking made him so paranoid he moved in right next door to his warehouse to keep an eye on it.

arsenalforever
05-07-2012, 01:09 PM
If you see the Exile's conversation with Zez on Nar Shaddaa, you'll clearly see him taking the Exile's side and talking about his decision to leave the Council on the very day the Exile was cast out. He also said that it wasn't the Exile's fault that he went to war and that he had lost Padawans who joined the war too. I really thought he was different from Vrook but then again on Dantooine he finally turns out to be as cranky and stingy as Vrook and possesses the same "arrogance" which he detests so much. Hypocrite alert lol.

Atleast Vrook is honest about hating the Exile from the beginning, but Zez really pissed me off lol.

Rtas Vadum
05-13-2012, 05:23 AM
If you see the Exile's conversation with Zez on Nar Shaddaa, you'll clearly see him taking the Exile's side and talking about his decision to leave the Council on the very day the Exile was cast out. He also said that it wasn't the Exile's fault that he went to war and that he had lost Padawans who joined the war too. I really thought he was different from Vrook but then again on Dantooine he finally turns out to be as cranky and stingy as Vrook and possesses the same "arrogance" which he detests so much. Hypocrite alert lol.

Atleast Vrook is honest about hating the Exile from the beginning, but Zez really pissed me off lol.

The answer is, somewhat simple. I think this was said before, but I can't be sure. But the reason they all take a stance against you? They think the Exile's power is exactly like Nihlius' power, even if they don't know of him specifically. The best way to explain it, is to see people like a container of water. While Nihlius will drain it completely, and stop it from being refilled, the Exile takes the excess, whatever spills over when it is already full. It is interesting that they fail to take into consideration anything the the Exile says, even when she went so far as to prove many times over just how much of a Jedi they are(barring Kreia's explanation of the whole thing, mind you, but they don't know that). But them being hypocritical somewhat makes sense. The have firm ideals on what a Jedi is, and when the Exile doesn't fit this, they might not exactly consider them a Sith, but in the least, a threat to what being a Jedi is/means.

arsenalforever
05-15-2012, 03:16 AM
Also another thing, when we speak to Kavar on Onderon after the Civil War, he says that the Jedi in order to hide themselves, went to planets touched by war because it would be difficult for the Sith to detect them through the Force in such planets right? But later he says

"Worlds touched by war, or great tragedies, can be felt within the Force...strongly"

Isn't this a contradiction to what he says earlier?

Also, he says that the echoes they felt from the Exile were similar to those they felt from the Sith threat, so how does cutting the Exile off from the Force help them achieve anything?

Here's a list of all the things the Exile did for the Republic:

1. Aided in the restoration effort on Telos by helping the Ithorians
2. Offered help against the Sith threat to Atris and the Masters
3. Crippled the Exchange (On Telos and Nar Shaddaa)
4. Destroyed Goto's yatch.
5. Helped the settlers on Dantooine and protected Khoonda from the mercenary attack.
6. Helped Queen Talia on Onderon

Zez himself admitted that he saw the Exile run around Nar Shaddaa helping those in the Refugee Sector, etc. and felt ashamed that he didn't try to help people. He commended the Exile for his efforts, and what does he do on Dantooine?

Even after seeing the Exile do so much, why do the Masters still believe him/her to be the threat to them? Just because he turned away from the Force? Just because he didn't rely on the Force as heavily as they did? Atleast he/she helped the Republic, the Jedi Masters were just hiding and doing nothing.

Rtas Vadum
05-15-2012, 05:26 AM
Also another thing, when we speak to Kavar on Onderon after the Civil War, he says that the Jedi in order to hide themselves, went to planets touched by war because it would be difficult for the Sith to detect them through the Force in such planets right? But later he says

"Worlds touched by war, or great tragedies, can be felt within the Force...strongly"

Isn't this a contradiction to what he says earlier?

It seems to be, but the problem is that, those who do feel echos of the tragedies that occurred, find only that it is difficult to feel anything else. So on these worlds, touched by war, those looking would find only these echos, while the Masters remain hidden behind it.

Also, he says that the echoes they felt from the Exile were similar to those they felt from the Sith threat, so how does cutting the Exile off from the Force help them achieve anything?

It obviously doesn't, or rather it wouldn't have, if it was possible to go through with it. But they don't see that. They care little for how much of a help you have been to the galaxy. All that matters to them are the fact that the Exile forms bonds with others, in order to strengthen herself. Here, there seems to be no problem. However, they believe that the Exile leeches far more than excess, and therein is the problem. They take the Exile for what they seem to be, nothing more.


Zez himself admitted that he saw the Exile run around Nar Shaddaa helping those in the Refugee Sector, etc. and felt ashamed that he didn't try to help people. He commended the Exile for his efforts, and what does he do on Dantooine?

He, and the rest of the Jedi Masters were trying to hide from the Sith. If they acted themselves, they would've drew their attention, and been unable to fight them off, especially alone. However, despite what he says, he is still a Jedi, and obviously a Master at that. Even if he did gain some truth in his exile, upon returning to being the thing he had been avoiding, along with it comes the same bloody problems, as it caused before.

Even after seeing the Exile do so much, why do the Masters still believe him/her to be the threat to them? Just because he turned away from the Force? Just because he didn't rely on the Force as heavily as they did? Atleast he/she helped the Republic, the Jedi Masters were just hiding and doing nothing.

One problem that exists within the Jedi, and the Sith. Both groups are hell bent on the mantra of "There is No life without the Force". As Jedi, they are already arrogant enough to think, One, that they, as Jedi, can learn all the secrets the force holds(without ever having to feel the dark side), and two, that the dark side is a perversion of the force, and not at all what it should be. What they not only fail to realize, but refuse to, is that the force is not simply a power in which a user can chose a single side, and expect to understand it.

However, it comes down to a single thing, said a few times over: her unique connection, her ability to form bonds(or his, of course). It isn't something they can understand, and thus, when one finds something they cannot understand, what is the first emotion to arise? Fear. Even beyond that, how could they possibly learn to feel the force as the Exile does? In the moment Kreia shows them this, they die. So they, in another display of their arrogance, decide to break her connection, and nothing else. They expect that the Sith will show themselves, that there will be ground to fight on, planned and understood by all. But they should've understood then, that after Katar, that isn't how it works, or how it is going to work. Even Kavar, who almost seems to have known that Vaklu was getting help from the Sith, and what does he do? Act as a bodyguard for Queen Talia. Nothing else.

arsenalforever
05-15-2012, 06:03 AM
So just because the Exile doesn't rely heavily on the force, she doesn't NEED the Force anymore.

Was this the theory of the Jedi Masters or did they fear that if in the future, if the Exile turned to the dark side, she would get people to follow her with ease and aid in her cause to destroy the Jedi/Republic?

And another thing, when Kreia steps in, she says that Revan knew dark places in the galaxy where Jedi were corrupted and where he made them believe in his cause, was she referring to Korriban?

EDIT:
And another thing, Revan left Onderon intact didn't he? Onderon was not touched by war?

JCarter426
05-20-2012, 10:53 PM
So just because the Exile doesn't rely heavily on the force, she doesn't NEED the Force anymore.
Yes, that's correct. Well, sort of.
Was this the theory of the Jedi Masters or did they fear that if in the future, if the Exile turned to the dark side, she would get people to follow her with ease and aid in her cause to destroy the Jedi/Republic?
The Exile cast echoes that made them doubt their belief in the Force. It wasn't something of the dark side, it was just a wound, an absence of the Force. Back during the Exile's trial, they didn't understand it; they thought it was some kind of fluke that couldn't be replicated. But then they felt it again from the Sith who were hunting them. So yes, they were afraid that this ability could be taught, that the echo was spreading, and when touched by the dark side it was capable of terrible things. But frankly I think these are all just excuses; they feared the echo itself, not just its effects. There was nothing the Exile could do to change their minds, they didn't see the Exile as a person, just a hole that had to be plugged.
And another thing, when Kreia steps in, she says that Revan knew dark places in the galaxy where Jedi were corrupted and where he made them believe in his cause, was she referring to Korriban?
She was referring to Malachor, but Korriban is one of those place also.
And another thing, Revan left Onderon intact didn't he? Onderon was not touched by war?
Onderon was invaded during the Mandalorian Wars, but wasn't a major part of the Jedi Civil War because Revan thought it was important to the Republic's infrastructure. Onderon was a nasty place even before the Mandalorian Wars, though, what with Freedon Nadd and all the Beast Wars.

arsenalforever
05-21-2012, 08:37 AM
You know HK-47 says that Revan used going to war against the Mandalorians as an excuse to convert the Jedi and soldiers who had joined him and turn them against the Republic and Dark Jedi. Do you think this was the case or did Revan have true intentions of stopping the Mandalorians?

If he DID plan to attack the Republic, what made him do so, the Sith teachings from the ruins on Dantooine from KOTOR 1?


Why did he leave Onderon intact in the Jedi Civil War? Was his grudge only against the Jedi and not the Republic?

Kavar says that the Jedi chose to hide on worlds touched by war in order to prevent themselves from being detected, but he hid on Onderon, which was not touched by the Jedi Civil War?


So yes, they were afraid that this ability could be taught, that the echo was spreading, and when touched by the dark side it was capable of terrible things. But frankly I think these are all just excuses; they feared the echo itself, not just its effects.

Isn't the echo ITSELF the effect of terrible things? Terrible things cause echoes, not the other way around right? So they feared the terrible things which caused the echoes right?

The Exile had a natural ability to influence others and be leader, but instead of appreciating this, the Masters criticized him. Is this because they think that if the Exile falls to the Dark Side, he will influence others and make them do his bidding? Is that what they fear? They think that after all he has done to help them he'll fall to the Dark Side? If the Exile would have been affiliated with the Dark Side, would he have not killed them on their respective planets?

In the end, the Exile destroys Malachor because of the Sith Academy there but does its destruction in any way seal the wound? After its destruction would the Exile still not carry the cries of the people he slayed there?

And by saying that he carries the cries of the people he slayed, the Masters mean that he cannot be sensed through the Force and appears void of the Force right? Then how does Chodo Habat sense him on Telos?

JCarter426
05-22-2012, 12:46 PM
You know HK-47 says that Revan used going to war against the Mandalorians as an excuse to convert the Jedi and soldiers who had joined him and turn them against the Republic and Dark Jedi. Do you think this was the case or did Revan have true intentions of stopping the Mandalorians?
I don't believe he ever says this. This is what the Jedi Civil War was about. Atton also mentions it, but according to him it didn't start until after Malachor.
If he DID plan to attack the Republic, what made him do so, the Sith teachings from the ruins on Dantooine from KOTOR 1?
He learned that the Sith - the True Sith - still exist, from Sith records he discovered on Malachor. Supposedly his whole plan was to conquer the Republic in order to strengthen it for the inevitable Sith invasion. Personally I think Kreia is wrong, that Revan truly fell to the dark side; his motives may have been pure, but the war still corrupted him.
Why did he leave Onderon intact in the Jedi Civil War? Was his grudge only against the Jedi and not the Republic?
Yes, he doesn't want to destroy the Republic, he wants to protect it. He left Onderon alone for the same reason Goto asks you to stabilize it - it's an important part of the Republic's infrastructure.
Kavar says that the Jedi chose to hide on worlds touched by war in order to prevent themselves from being detected, but he hid on Onderon, which was not touched by the Jedi Civil War?
War in general, not specifically the Jedi Civil War. The Jedi Civil War itself was a direct result of the Mandalorian Wars, part of the same echo.
Isn't the echo ITSELF the effect of terrible things? Terrible things cause echoes, not the other way around right? So they feared the terrible things which caused the echoes right?
Well, no, they're specifically afraid of the echo and what it does. It could mean the end of the Force, and as Jedi they don't know anything other than the Force. Whether it's a bad thing is a matter of opinion; that's certainly what the Jedi believe. However, as Kreia points out, their perspective is very limited; they have only sensed the echo, not experienced it. They don't understand it as well as those who have, because they have only felt its effects. It's obviously capable of great evil, but despite everything it does to the Exile, he/she becomes a stronger person for it.

Remember that Jedi aren't supposed to fear anything, and they've been fighting wars for a long, long time. In the past their enemy was the dark side, but the echo is... something new. In the past, wars have left wounds in the Force, but for the most part these wounds don't do anything; they're just places that Jedi have learned to avoid. They aren't necessarily evil, just unnerving. The wound at Malachor, however, somehow resonates with all the other wounds in the galaxy, and even with the people who fought there. This is likely connected to the Exile's bonding ability, as well as the choice to turn away from the Force.
The Exile had a natural ability to influence others and be leader, but instead of appreciating this, the Masters criticized him. Is this because they think that if the Exile falls to the Dark Side, he will influence others and make them do his bidding? Is that what they fear? They think that after all he has done to help them he'll fall to the Dark Side? If the Exile would have been affiliated with the Dark Side, would he have not killed them on their respective planets?
It's the power itself they fear, not how it could be used. They fear its inherent nature, that it comes from something other than the Force. Well, they fear how it could be used too, but that's only ancillary. I don't believe they're afraid the Exile will fall to the dark side; they're simply afraid of what the Exile is, a wound in the Force. They think the wound is evil, no matter what it does.
In the end, the Exile destroys Malachor because of the Sith Academy there but does its destruction in any way seal the wound? After its destruction would the Exile still not carry the cries of the people he slayed there?
Well, it's more like the Exile coming to terms with what happened there. That's both the reason for destroying Malachor and the reason the echo is healed.
And by saying that he carries the cries of the people he slayed, the Masters mean that he cannot be sensed through the Force and appears void of the Force right? Then how does Chodo Habat sense him on Telos?
No, they can sense the Exile, quite strongly. They might be sensing different than they would normally expect to sense from a person, but they still can sense him. It's Nihilus who has trouble sensing the Exile because - I believe - he and the Exile are both wounds in the Force; he can't discern the Exile's presence from his own.

arsenalforever
05-22-2012, 02:20 PM
HK-47 does tell the Exile this when he/she asks him if Revan was training Jedi and converting them at Malachor.

I don't understand the difference between a Wound and an Echo. What do you mean when you say it "resonates with other wounds"? And you said the echoes do something to the Exile but he/she only becomes stronger. What does that mean? Kreia thinks the echoes can do good things too? What do these echoes have to do with the Exile's bonding ability? He was good at bonding even before Malachor right? Did he drain the Force from the others then too?

If Nihilius has difficulty in sensing the Exile and the converse is also true, then in the game why does Kreia ask us, "Have you felt it?" And we reply, "Yes, it's Visas' master", and then choose our prestige class?

TKA-001
05-22-2012, 06:39 PM
You know HK-47 says that Revan used going to war against the Mandalorians as an excuse to convert the Jedi and soldiers who had joined him and turn them against the Republic and Dark Jedi. Do you think this was the case or did Revan have true intentions of stopping the Mandalorians? If he DID plan to attack the Republic, what made him do so, the Sith teachings from the ruins on Dantooine from KOTOR 1?
I figure that the way it went was, Revan entered the war with pretty pure intentions; the only thing wrong with his methods was that he was causing a split in the Jedi Order by taking charge herself. I then figure that over the course of the war he and his Jedi gradually became more and more ruthless, partly by making un-Jedi-like decisions (re; the sort of things the computer guarding the Kashyyyk Star Map alludes to) and being enthralled by the sort of power that commanding fleets and armies brings.

I then figure that the turn to the dark side, for Revan, was completed when he came across Trayus Academy, where he learned about the "True" Sith in the Unknown Regions, and embraced the Sith teachings and the dark side. Past that point, he intended to eradicate and replace the Republic and Jedi Order with his own Sith. He did truly believe that the galaxy would be better off with him and his Empire in charge, and that any steps taken toward that end were justified, but this was really nothing more than a self-serving rationalization (which is nothing new to the Sith; to name a few, Darths Plagueis, Sidious, Caedus, and Krayt all believed the same thing about themselves). His master, Kreia, unable to stomach the thought that her greatest student had in fact become merely another in a long line of Dark Lords who wanted to dominate the galaxy, also adopted this rationalization.

That's my interpretation, anyways. I'm pretty sure it agrees with most of what the KotOR games say.

arsenalforever
05-23-2012, 02:56 AM
But Jimmy Carter says that Revan didn't want to harm te Republic. Why else would he have left Onderon intact?

RevMg
05-23-2012, 03:22 AM
But Jimmy Carter says that Revan didn't want to harm te Republic. Why else would he have left Onderon intact?

Hmm it's more like he didn't want to harm the people(sort of) but wanted to destory the political system. Also he did not want to depend on the Forge so it wouldn't do to him what it did to Malak, so he needed infrastructure to wage a further war with True Sith.

JCarter426
05-23-2012, 05:50 AM
HK-47 does tell the Exile this when he/she asks him if Revan was training Jedi and converting them at Malachor.
That was during the Jedi Civil War, after the Mandalorian Wars. Malachor was one of the centers of Revan's Sith Empire, as it continued to be even after his supposed death, Malak's death, and Revan's disappearance. My theory is that Malak and most of the other Sith didn't actually know about it, at least not to the fullest extent, and that's how it survived the Jedi Civil War. It is said in the loading screen hints - and in "Chronicles of the Old Republic", though while technically canon it's full of continuity errors - that the Sith rediscovered Malachor by following the echo to its source, or something along those lines. This is pretty much the same thing the Exile does at the end of the game, incidentally.
I don't understand the difference between a Wound and an Echo.
A wound in the Force is just an absence, a hole. It's described as a place where it's difficult to sense the Force. Wounds are formed from pain and suffering, such as when death takes place on a great scale - either all at once like Malachor, or slowly over time like Korriban. And they can form inside a person as well, under the right conditions.

An echo, as best I can describe it, is a ripple in the Force. Everything is connected by the Force, so everything affects everything else in some small way, through these echoes. When Vader says he senses "a tremor in the Force" from Obi-Wan, that's what he's talking about; Obi-Wan is strong in the Force, and the Force connects everything, so Obi-Wan affects everything in the universe in some small way, which Vader can sense.

The echoes caused by wounds in the Force are ones that never seem to stop; they're ripples that keep on rippling, without purpose and with no final destination. Kind of like an incomplete story.
What do you mean when you say it "resonates with other wounds"?
I mean it's connected to the other wounds, and they draw strength from each other. Their echoes overlap, resonate, and grow.
And you said the echoes do something to the Exile but he/she only becomes stronger. What does that mean? Kreia thinks the echoes can do good things too?
Kreia thinks the Force is bad, because you can't have free will if there is a Force that has a will of its own and the means to control you. So she believes the Exile becomes a stronger person for turning away from the Force. But more generally, she believes in learning through conflict, that good can come from bad.

Whether you agree with her about the Force is irrelevant; just look at how the Exile progresses in the game. The Exile was said to be a mediocre student, and yet even Vrook is impressed at how quickly he/she is able to learn - to the point where this terrifies them in the dark side version - and draw so many followers, drawing strength from them all as well. They explain that it's because the Exile's bonding ability has grown stronger; the war essentially unlocked the Exile's potential. Good or bad, Malachor was a learning experience.
What do these echoes have to do with the Exile's bonding ability?
Well, this is more my theory than anything directly stated in the game - well, most everything is with this game, really. The Exile formed bonds with all the soldiers under him/her, that's established. And it's the pain of their deaths that forces the Exile to turn away from the Force. We also know that the wound at Malachor is different from previous wounds in the Force. I believe it's a direct result of the Exile's bonding ability; the Exile is still connected to all those dead soldiers and Jedi on Malachor, Dxun, Serroco and wherever else they fought together. And all of them were, in a much smaller way, connected to others who died on other planets, and so on. Traditionally a bond is seen as a connection between two people, but in this case the Exile is connected to whole planets - Malachor, Dxun, Serroco, etc. This means the wounds are all connected, bonded; they strengthen each other, their echoes resonate and grow in strength. It's the Exile that's the link.
He was good at bonding even before Malachor right?
Yes, that's correct.
Did he drain the Force from the others then too?
No, not exactly. A Force bond is seen as positive energy that flows both ways. The Exile and Nihilus - and the Sith assassins to a lesser extent - have learned to channel it in one direction. As I said, it's a preexisting ability that grows stronger, and in some ways different.
If Nihilius has difficulty in sensing the Exile and the converse is also true, then in the game why does Kreia ask us, "Have you felt it?" And we reply, "Yes, it's Visas' master", and then choose our prestige class?
Er... what? I said the Nihilus has difficulty sensing the Exile, not Kreia or the Exile have difficulty sensing Nihilus. However, I should point out that Nihilus does start to sense the Exile - otherwise he would never send Visas, obviously - as the Exile grows stronger in the Force. In a sense the Exile stops being part of the echo - or blending in with the echo, whichever you prefer - and becomes something new, which Nihilus certainly can sense. Part of this is because the Exile is regaining and reasserting his/her identity, and in so doing his/her presence in the Force becomes unique once again.

Also, the Exile probably wasn't sensing anything before, what with not being able to feel the Force anymore. But I still think it's much more one way, due to Nihilus' nature; he's blind power. He can only see himself, and what he hungers for.
But Jimmy Carter says that Revan didn't want to harm te Republic. Why else would he have left Onderon intact?
Er... my name isn't Jimmy Carter. :xp: But I agree with the others, Revan intended to replace the Republic, not destroy it; he thought the other Jedi weren't prepared to defend it, due to their refusal to go to war against the Mandalorians. He attacks the Republic, but only parts that he believes are weak; he leaves parts that are key to the Republic's survival, such as Onderon, alone. And I think he shares Kreia's philosophy, that he believes even if he loses the Republic will be stronger for it. Though I also believe he's very wrong in this case, considering the state of the Republic after the Jedi Civil War. Somewhere along the line the dark side twisted his morality, and his judgement.

TKA-001
05-23-2012, 09:17 AM
But I agree with the others, Revan intended to replace the Republic, not destroy it
Hmm it's more like he didn't want to harm the people(sort of) but wanted to destory the political system.
But Jimmy Carter says that Revan didn't want to harm te Republic. Why else would he have left Onderon intact?
This is the part that puzzles me - particularly the part that Goto in TSL literally says that the idea of Revan wanting to destroy the Republic is "a common misconception, not supported by facts". The Republic is a government. Revan declared war on that government with the aim of dismantling and replacing it - what part of that doesn't mean "destroy the Republic"? What he chooses to do with the industrial infrastructure is a strategic concern, not a political one; and whether he wants to preserve its people is a, ethical concern, because their existence is not directly tied to the existence of one government or another.

Also he did not want to depend on the Forge so it wouldn't do to him what it did to Malak, so he needed infrastructure to wage a further war with True Sith.
I'm also not sure why people rip on Malak so much for supposedly using the Star Forge more than Revan - we've never seen any evidence that it had any negative side-effects on Malak (seeing as he's already on the dark side and can't be corrupted much more by it), and the thing was winning the war even before he took the helm. From all indications, the Star Forge was worth an entire Empire's worth of military production, so Revan's decision to make sure he still had large infrastructure was really just a precaution.

arsenalforever
05-23-2012, 12:57 PM
Sorry JCarter, for calling you Jimmy Carter.

I remember one of the masters saying that even if one of the members sharing a bond die, the bond would still exist but it would be empty, like a wound. So THIS is the reason why the Exile is called a wound in the Force. He carries the empty bonds of the people who he knew and wro died at Malachor. But why did the incident at Malachor specifically "strengthen" the Exile's bonding ability? And how does the Exile "blend with the echoes"?



Vader extinguished lives at Alderan while the Exile did so at Malachor but the reason Vader is NOT CONSIDERED a Wound is that he didn't have strong bonds with the people he killed at Alderan, while the Exile did. Can you explain why Sidious is a Wound in the Force?

TKA-001
05-23-2012, 11:07 PM
Can you explain why Sidious is a Wound in the Force?
Where does this idea come from? I know some of the EU (like Darth Plagueis and the RotS novelization) calls him a "singularity" or "black hole in the Force", but I don't think it means the same thing as what it means in TSL.

JCarter426
05-24-2012, 11:25 AM
I remember one of the masters saying that even if one of the members sharing a bond die, the bond would still exist but it would be empty, like a wound. So THIS is the reason why the Exile is called a wound in the Force. He carries the empty bonds of the people who he knew and wro died at Malachor.
That's about it, yes. They kept piling on and on until the Exile became a living wound in the Force. If a part of you dies when you lose someone with whom you're bonded, imagine what happens when almost everyone you know dies, and you were bonded to them all.
But why did the incident at Malachor specifically "strengthen" the Exile's bonding ability?
Well, why is a question that is never specifically answered. I'd say the most likely reason is that the Exile no longer feels the Force naturally, using bonds with other Force users in order to do so; the bonding ability grew stronger in order to adapt for the greater demand.

Or if you want to look at it in a less technical - and perhaps more idealistic - manner, the Exile's ability to lead was the only thing left; everything else died at Malachor. The Exile is a strong individual, and clung to his/her remaining strength. Rather than drawing on the Force, the Exile drew strength from within, from untapped potential.
And how does the Exile "blend with the echoes"?
Well, for a lot of reasons the Exile is intrinsically tied to the wound at Malachor. So the Exile feels the same to Force users, at least until the Exile starts reconnecting with the Force. Nihilus is especially blind because he's also tied to the wound; his own power overshadows the Exile.
Vader extinguished lives at Alderan while the Exile did so at Malachor but the reason Vader is NOT CONSIDERED a Wound is that he didn't have strong bonds with the people he killed at Alderan, while the Exile did. Can you explain why Sidious is a Wound in the Force?
Where does this idea come from? I know some of the EU (like Darth Plagueis and the RotS novelization) calls him a "singularity" or "black hole in the Force", but I don't think it means the same thing as what it means in TSL.
Yeah, that's the first I've heard of this as well. While wounds in the Force still exist after K2 - the whole concept being based on the destruction of Alderaan, of course - I don't believe anything like Malachor will ever happen again, a wound connected to every other wound. And certainly not a wound in a person.

arsenalforever
05-25-2012, 12:47 AM
Thanks a lot. And can you tell me about the bond shared by Visas and Nihilus? We have an option to sacrifice Visas aboard the Ravager when fighting Nihilus.

I don't understand what Revan's main objective was during the Jedi Civil War. Why did he leave planets intact? Why did he tell Malak not to use the Star Forge excessively?

JCarter426
05-25-2012, 04:02 AM
Thanks a lot. And can you tell me about the bond shared by Visas and Nihilus? We have an option to sacrifice Visas aboard the Ravager when fighting Nihilus.
Well this is perhaps an even trickier question... I believe it's because Nihilus let Visas live that they become bonded in the traditional manner - albeit more extreme, like Exile and Kreia's bond - rather than his usual method of leeching the life off people, unilaterally. He made Visas his apprentice and emissary, so harming her will harm him. Nihilus is sort of the opposite of the Exile; the Exile generally forms good bonds (i.e. beneficial to both parties, but potentially harmful to both) but is capable of forming bad ones (i.e. beneficial to one and harmful to another) and Nihilus generally forms bad ones but in one case forms a good one.
I don't understand what Revan's main objective was during the Jedi Civil War. Why did he leave planets intact?
He wanted to replace the Jedi Order with his Sith Empire. Simple as that. Everything else was second to that objective, and most importantly he didn't want to weaken the Republic in any way. He left certain worlds like Onderon alone, but he also attacked others so that they would have to rely on the Republic's aide; he assassinated Yusanis so the Echani wouldn't become independent enough to break away from the Republic, and instigated a civil war on Praven Prime so it would be forced to secede and later reenter, on more favorable terms for the Republic. In short, he ruthlessly helped the Republic, which is rather strange considering he was technically at war with them; this is why Goto and others theorize Revan had some larger plan that never came to fruition due to Malak's betrayal. According to Kreia, Revan was trying to protect the Republic from an unseen Sith threat.
Why did he tell Malak not to use the Star Forge excessively?
It's implied that the Star Forge directly caused the collapse of the Infinite Empire; it corrupted the user to the point of insanity, or something along those lines... much in the same way that Nihilus is consumed by his own hunger. Malak either didn't know the danger, or didn't care. Obviously they had differing opinions on a lot of things, but it could be explained by Revan keeping him in the dark. Revan likely never expected Malak to overthrow him, so it would make sense if he never told him everything. I don't believe Revan ever told Malak about the Truth Sith, his real reason for attacking the Republic, or, as I mentioned earlier, Malachor.

RevMg
05-25-2012, 11:22 AM
It's implied that the Star Forge directly caused the collapse of the Infinite Empire; it corrupted the user to the point of insanity, or something along those lines... much in the same way that Nihilus is consumed by his own hunger. Malak either didn't know the danger, or didn't care. Obviously they had differing opinions on a lot of things, but it could be explained by Revan keeping him in the dark. Revan likely never expected Malak to overthrow him, so it would make sense if he never told him everything. I don't believe Revan ever told Malak about the Truth Sith, his real reason for attacking the Republic, or, as I mentioned earlier, Malachor.

It was stated in the Chronicles (that were until TOR still considered canon by Lucasfilm to my knowledge even though they introduced some mistakes on their own) that Malak did not know about Trayus Academy.

The problem with new canon is that the whole deal with Trayus Academy might have been retconned out of existence which is sad, bc without Trayus, KotOR 2 makes no sense...



I'm also not sure why people rip on Malak so much for supposedly using the Star Forge more than Revan - we've never seen any evidence that it had any negative side-effects on Malak (seeing as he's already on the dark side and can't be corrupted much more by it), and the thing was winning the war even before he took the helm. From all indications, the Star Forge was worth an entire Empire's worth of military production, so Revan's decision to make sure he still had large infrastructure was really just a precaution.

You can always be corrupted more, look at Nihilus;P The simple thing is Star Forge speeds up the process. Revan wanted to avoid it, Malak embraced it, and the game wants us to believe that part of what Malak become is due to Star Forge's influence.

We have not seen direct evidence in KotOR bc there is so much you can show in one game.

Not to mention it sits well with what Kreia says about Revan and what makes his image in TOR miss the point imo.

JCarter426
05-25-2012, 03:44 PM
It was stated in the Chronicles (that were until TOR still considered canon by Lucasfilm to my knowledge even though they introduced some mistakes on their own) that Malak did not know about Trayus Academy.
Ah, it's been a while since I read them, thanks. They're still canon, as far as I'm aware though. Apparently it's ok that Star Wars canon doesn't make sense. :xp:
The problem with new canon is that the whole deal with Trayus Academy might have been retconned out of existence which is sad, bc without Trayus, KotOR 2 makes no sense...
Frankly I'd rather ignore anything other than the two games, if only for the sake of discussion. The expanded media introduce so many problems, though I have to fault MMOTOR most of all considering the circumstances. So best ignore it.

arsenalforever
06-07-2012, 01:10 AM
Also, after the Exile defeats Visas on the Ebon Hawk, she says "Kill me, I beg you. It was not my wish to challenge you" And Nihilius force chokes her aboard the Ravager when she asks him if the echo (the Exile) is a threat. Why?

JCarter426
06-07-2012, 05:17 PM
Also, after the Exile defeats Visas on the Ebon Hawk, she says "Kill me, I beg you. It was not my wish to challenge you"
She wanted to die. I thought we established that. You probably would too, if you were Nihilus' mistress.
And Nihilius force chokes her aboard the Ravager when she asks him if the echo (the Exile) is a threat. Why?
Because he's supposed to be the darkness that feeds on all life or whatever she mumbles about all the time... echoes? Nothing is supposed to be a threat to him, I guess is the point.

arsenalforever
06-15-2012, 09:08 AM
Another thing:

When Visquis calls the Exile to meet him in the Jekk Jekk Tarr, why does the Bounty Hunter truce break? Why does everyone start attacking the Exile? Didn't Visquis want the Exile's help? Why would he want everyone to start attacking him?

Rtas Vadum
06-15-2012, 05:12 PM
When Visquis calls the Exile to meet him in the Jekk Jekk Tarr, why does the Bounty Hunter truce break?
They were supposed to wait. To see if the Exile would draw out another Jedi. When Visquis decides to contact the exile to meet with them, they think something is going on, and decide to do something. Though they still followed goto's orders, and did not attack the Exile.
Why does everyone start attacking the Exile?
That's just it. They don't. The truce was off after the Twin Suns attacked Atton, and that is just the point. They didn't go for the Exile, they went for the party members,

Didn't Visquis want the Exile's help?

Nope. Perhaps he did plan on having a serious meeting with her, but likely the Exile would have fallen into the same trap that Mira found herself in. Even when the Exile does arrive, what does he do first? Try to knock her out with gas. (admittedly what is in the bar anyway, but still...)

Why would he want everyone to start attacking him?

He didn't. He wanted to capture the Exile himself, and deliver her to Goto, all so he could try...something to get rid of him. Also, the main reason he wanted to do that, was due to his deal with Vogga. Since Vogga couldn't get his suppiles of fuel out of the system without Goto snapping them up, Visquis allied with the hutt to get rid of Goto.

JCarter426
06-15-2012, 10:56 PM
Another thing:

When Visquis calls the Exile to meet him in the Jekk Jekk Tarr, why does the Bounty Hunter truce break? Why does everyone start attacking the Exile? Didn't Visquis want the Exile's help? Why would he want everyone to start attacking him?

The bounty hunters don't work for Visquis; everyone works for Goto or the Hutts, directly or indirectly. Visquis betrayed Goto by setting up his trap for the Exile; he wanted to use the Exile to draw Goto out of hiding and kill him - of course, it was completely unknown to him that Goto was just a hologram. The bounty hunters also betrayed Goto by going after Atton and the other party members when they were told to leave the Exile alone - on a technicality that Goto never really said anything about the party members specifically. They actually thought Goto had betrayed them first; Visquis works for Goto, so they assume he is acting under Goto's orders when he arranges a meeting with the Exile. This is compounded by their preexisting suspicions, as Goto had quite clearly told them to not capture the Exile, after they did all the work in drawing him/her to Nar Shaddaa. This bit of cut content should help:
Zhug #1
The scout has reported back with very strange news. The Exchange has arranged a meeting with the Jeedai.

Zhug #2
I do not understand why they would do that. I had thought they wanted to watch the Jeedai. See if the Jeedai could attract other Jeedai.

Zhug #3
Perhaps the Jeedai caused so much trouble, Goto get tired of it.

Zhug #1
Maybe they find other Jeedai.

Zhug #2
No, it is obvious what Goto intends to do. Goto intended to hire us to drive the Jeedai to Nar Shaddaa. Now that the Jeedai is here, Goto doesn't need to pay us anymore. He will try to capture the Jeedai himself.

Zhug #3
But we cannot attack the Jeedai. Goto would put bounties on all our heads.

Zhug #3
Then we will take the Jeedai's companions and the Jeedai's ship hostage.
Presumably Atton deduced all of this... frankly I think it's unclear. They are still hunting the same targets - the Exile and his/her companions - so the truce should still be on. But I guess the bounty hunters never really cared about the code anyway; now that it's not longer technically a bounty, as they have all betrayed their client, they're free to do whatever they want.

Q
06-16-2012, 12:20 AM
This thread delivers. :thumbsup:

arsenalforever
06-17-2012, 10:11 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VvS5MLnG0Y

This vid pretty much answers my questions.


But after this scene, the Exile goes into the Ebon Hawk, where Atton says that the Handmaiden has taken Kreia to Atris. The Exile then answers, "Then we will have to go to there - the Sith will attack Telos"

1. How did the Handmaiden take Kreia to Atris without a flaming ship?
2. Who told the Exile that the Sith were about to attack Telos?

JCarter426
06-17-2012, 10:47 AM
1. How did the Handmaiden take Kreia to Atris without a flaming ship?
Though it's been a long, long while since I've played that part of the game, unmodified, I seem to recall a cutscene showing the other handmaidens arriving.

In any case, does it matter? Space travel is commonplace in Star Wars (that's one of the things that really annoys me about The Phantom Menace) and Kreia wanted to be taken to Atris and... she's Kreia, she has her ways.
2. Who told the Exile that the Sith were about to attack Telos?
Perhaps because Atris is the only other Jedi, the Exile assumes they'll go after her. I don't know... the whole battle of Telos is really off.

Rtas Vadum
06-17-2012, 08:03 PM
Perhaps because Atris is the only other Jedi, the Exile assumes they'll go after her. I don't know... the whole battle of Telos is really off.

I don't know if she will say it for sure every time(especially if you spare Atris), but Kreia(or at least, the impression of her in the holocrons), mentions...

"One of the Sith Lords has come to Telos. You know why he has come here. And if he is not stopped, here, now, then he shall lay waste to the planet."

That could mean Sion, but it's lilely Sion would only be after Jedi, and would not concern himself with the station. Which leaves only Nihilus, who is obviously more likely to lay waste to the planet, given what the Exile would know of Katar.

arsenalforever
06-18-2012, 02:54 AM
The Exile tells Atton that they must go to Telos because the Sith are planning to attack it even before they leave Dantooine for the Academy. But I don't understand how they even come to know that Telos is going to be under attack?

And how did the Ebon Hawk even reach the Academy? I thought the codes were only with the Handmaiden?

If we side with the Queen on Onderon, there is a cut scene of Kreia telling Colonel Tobin to tell Nihilus to attack Telos and that there is a Jedi Academy there, but if we side with General Vaklu, who tells Nihilus to attack Telos? And why would Kreia want Nihilus to attack Telos?

Nihilus could not sense the Jedi Council meeting on Dantooine (when they tried to strip the Exile of the Force) because it was difficult to sense Force Sensitives on such worlds, then does that make Telos any different?

And when Atris asks Kreia who she is, Kreia says "I am the one who ordered him to be exiled". Is this true?

Atris also says: "These Sith are spawned of you, spawned of the Mandalorian Wars... all those deaths, all those Jedi"

So the Sith DID learn those techniques from the Exile?

Atris said that Kreia was waiting at Malachor for the Exile, where she intended to create another echo that would deafen and kill all Force Sensitives. I wanted to ask, that how she intended to trigger another echo? By making the Exile kill her at the heart of Malachor? Then she succeeded didn't she?

And Atris said that if the Exile did not follow her to Malachor, she will kill herself, resulting in the death of the Exile as well. Did she mean this or was it another one of her lies? I think she was speaking the truth, because if she killed herself on Malachor, the Exile would be caught unprepared and would die of the pain too (like on Dantooine (dark side version))

Rtas Vadum
06-18-2012, 06:26 AM
The Exile tells Atton that they must go to Telos because the Sith are planning to attack it even before they leave Dantooine for the Academy. But I don't understand how they even come to know that Telos is going to be under attack?

Where else would it be? It might be suspect at that point, but in some ways, where else would Nihilus choose to attack? As far as the game itself goes, you only hear about Katar, and that's it. He hasn't went after anywhere else, to to anything similar. So he obviously had the need to quell his hunger, along with needing a place to do so. How exactly he would've heard about Telos(beyond Tobin specifically telling him), I can't say, but it's either that Kreia actually tells Tobin the information regardless of who the Exile sides with, or...well else I don't know.


And how did the Ebon Hawk even reach the Academy? I thought the codes were only with the Handmaiden?

"She said you would come here, to this place"

Atris was expecting you. Regardless of your alignment, she wants to be rid of you. You could say that it's like this - if you want to fix a problem, and it happens to be coming close enough to do so on it's own, why stop it?


If we side with the Queen on Onderon, there is a cut scene of Kreia telling Colonel Tobin to tell Nihilus to attack Telos and that there is a Jedi Academy there, but if we side with General Vaklu, who tells Nihilus to attack Telos? And why would Kreia want Nihilus to attack Telos?

I think Tobin(aboard the Ravager) mentions that she told him, no matter who the Exile sides with. As for the reason Kreia wanted that? Two reasons. The first is, that it brings him out into the open, allowing himself to be attacked. And the second is, that he is already lacking in places to sate his hunger. Trying to feed on Telos, is like trying to save oneself from death in a desert, with naught but a few drops of water.


Nihilus could not sense the Jedi Council meeting on Dantooine (when they tried to strip the Exile of the Force) because it was difficult to sense Force Sensitives on such worlds, then does that make Telos any different?

There is a difference in being able to sense where something is, and knowing that it's there. Why try scouring the galaxy for something, when you know exactly where it is?


And when Atris asks Kreia who she is, Kreia says "I am the one who ordered him to be exiled". Is this true?

It could be, but either way, it makes sense. If the Exile goes to the Council, and they listen, then there is ample reason for trust. If the Exile goes to them, and they not only don't listen, but they wish to Exile her, then there is reason for the Exile to doubt them, if she hadn't before.


Atris also says: "These Sith are spawned of you, spawned of the Mandalorian Wars... all those deaths, all those Jedi"

So the Sith DID learn those techniques from the Exile?

When exactly did the Exile give lessons on this? But then again, Atris is just like the rest of the Council. She does not know about Nihlius(never-mind the advertising), and if there are Sith that have a power similar to the Exile's, who do you think she is going to mention first?


Atris said that Kreia was waiting at Malachor for the Exile, where she intended to create another echo that would deafen and kill all Force Sensitives. I wanted to ask, that how she intended to trigger another echo? By making the Exile kill her at the heart of Malachor? Then she succeeded didn't she?

Yes, and no. Her, and obviously the Exile's action's changed things, but the force still exists.


And Atris said that if the Exile did not follow her to Malachor, she will kill herself, resulting in the death of the Exile as well. Did she mean this or was it another one of her lies? I think she was speaking the truth, because if she killed herself on Malachor, the Exile would be caught unprepared and would die of the pain too (like on Dantooine (dark side version))

For what reason, at that point, would the Exile have to not go to Malachor? Beyond the fact that the game forces you to, there isn't much to that thinking, since even if you could travel to Malachor just like the other planets, having a scene where Kreia actually does it(say if you take a certain amount of time finishing quests, etc), it would be interesting, but annoying.

Also, Kreia does specifically tell the Exile that she will kill herself if they don't come to Malachor. The possibility might not make one prepared for something, but if you know it might happen, you are better off than not knowing at all.

arsenalforever
06-18-2012, 08:27 AM
I think Tobin(aboard the Ravager) mentions that she told him, no matter who the Exile sides with.

The cutscene plays only if we side with the Queen.

And from the video, can you please tell me what Kreia means between 4:32 to 4:39?

Yes, and no. Her, and obviously the Exile's action's changed things, but the force still exists.

Well Kreia said that if echoes like the one the Exile created were created in succession, it would lead to the death of all Force sensitives. But I think the magnitude of these echoes are not all the same.

Obviously, the magnitude of the echo created by the activation of the MSG is much larger than ones created by small acts of charity or cruelty.

In order to kill these Force sensitives, an echo of a magnitude similar to the one created by the Exile at Malachor must be triggered, and Kreia thought that the magnitude of the echoes created due to her death at the hands of the Exile at Malachor would be enough to kill the Force Sensitives? Surely not?

If she wants to kill Force Sensitives, she would have to come up with a better plan that would create echoes of a larger magnitude right? If she wanted echoes, she could've just let Nihilus consume Telos lol

And when asked why Kreia chose the Exile when there were many other Jedi, she says

"No Jedi ever made the choice you did. To sever ties so completely, so utterly, that it leaves a wound in the Force. It was mistake to make you try and feel it again, I see that now. There is no truth in the Force. But there is truth in you exile, and that is why I chose you"

1. It was the loss of lives that left a wound in the Force, not the severance of ties by the Exile.

2. Why was it a mistake to make the Exile try and feel the Force again? Didn't Kreia get what she wanted?

Rtas Vadum
06-18-2012, 11:34 AM
The cutscene plays only if we side with the Queen.

Yes, but I didn't mean that scene. I mean when you speak with Tobin aboard the Ravager, he mentions that Kreia told him about Telos, regardless if you side with the Queen or Vaklu.


And from the video, can you please tell me what Kreia means between 4:32 to 4:39?
"The destruction of the Order, the Masters, was not an end in itself. I did not expect them to still live."

It simply means that she was unaware that they were still alive. It wasn't in her original goal to find them, but given that they were still alive, it would've been foolish for her to ignore them.


1. It was the loss of lives that left a wound in the Force, not the severance of ties by the Exile.

Yes, but it is because of those lost lives that she had to do it.[/quote]


2. Why was it a mistake to make the Exile try and feel the Force again? Didn't Kreia get what she wanted?

Yes, but with her goal of getting rid of the force, she teaches her student to use it. Perhaps it does go along with her ideal of using the force like a poison, but given that the Exile would rely heavily on the force, it should be obvious to anyone that the Exile would fight against such a goal, dark or light.

JCarter426
06-18-2012, 08:50 PM
I don't know if she will say it for sure every time(especially if you spare Atris), but Kreia(or at least, the impression of her in the holocrons), mentions...

"One of the Sith Lords has come to Telos. You know why he has come here. And if he is not stopped, here, now, then he shall lay waste to the planet."

That could mean Sion, but it's lilely Sion would only be after Jedi, and would not concern himself with the station. Which leaves only Nihilus, who is obviously more likely to lay waste to the planet, given what the Exile would know of Katar.
That happens after you've already gone to Telos in the first place.
Where else would it be? It might be suspect at that point, but in some ways, where else would Nihilus choose to attack? As far as the game itself goes, you only hear about Katar, and that's it. He hasn't went after anywhere else, to to anything similar. So he obviously had the need to quell his hunger, along with needing a place to do so. How exactly he would've heard about Telos(beyond Tobin specifically telling him), I can't say, but it's either that Kreia actually tells Tobin the information regardless of who the Exile sides with, or...well else I don't know.
Kreia only tells the Exile the Sith are even going to attack at all in the dark side version. Obviously the Sith have been destroying worlds and such, but the line suggests a certain, imminent attack, and there really isn't any evidence for it.
And how did the Ebon Hawk even reach the Academy? I thought the codes were only with the Handmaiden?
I think the codes are part of a cut subplot, like the HK factory; best ignore the whole thing. And I agree Atris probably wanted the Exile to come to her anyway.
If we side with the Queen on Onderon, there is a cut scene of Kreia telling Colonel Tobin to tell Nihilus to attack Telos and that there is a Jedi Academy there, but if we side with General Vaklu, who tells Nihilus to attack Telos? And why would Kreia want Nihilus to attack Telos?
The scene isn't in the game at all, it was cut. So I don't get your question.
Nihilus could not sense the Jedi Council meeting on Dantooine (when they tried to strip the Exile of the Force) because it was difficult to sense Force Sensitives on such worlds, then does that make Telos any different?
In all likeliness, yes. Kreia describes it as "a place hidden from the galaxy, like the academy on Dantooine" and calls Atris clever for choosing it.
And when Atris asks Kreia who she is, Kreia says "I am the one who ordered him to be exiled". Is this true?
That was also cut from the game. I believe it was cut for a reason, rather than due to time constraints like many of the other cuts; Avellone has admitted they went through several different drafts of the story and removed things they didn't feel were working. Kreia and Atris were completely different characters, originally.
It was the loss of lives that left a wound in the Force, not the severance of ties by the Exile.
Wounds happen all the time, it's how you react to them that matters. The Exile chose to sever their connection to the Force, rather than succumb to the wound's corrupting power. It may have been a subconscious choice, but it was still a choice. Kreia sees it as the Exile choosing to retain his/her identity rather than become a pawn of the dark side. A light sided Exile chose to turn away from the force out of fear of what the dark side would do to him/her, and a dark sided Exile had no choice but to give up his/her power in the same way the ancient Sith Lords chose not to develop Nihilus' hunger.
Atris also says: "These Sith are spawned of you, spawned of the Mandalorian Wars... all those deaths, all those Jedi"

So the Sith DID learn those techniques from the Exile?
Atris blames the Exile for everything that happened in the Mandalorian Wars. And she's right to some extent; had the Exile not entered the war, the course of events would have turned in a different direction. That doesn't mean the Exile is personally responsible for everything that happened, though. Even if the Exile is - indirectly - responsible for creating the wound at Malachor, the wound that Nihilus and the other Sith feed on, to blame the Exile for everything they do with that power is still not fair. The Exile could have done the same thing, but chose not to.
Atris said that Kreia was waiting at Malachor for the Exile, where she intended to create another echo that would deafen and kill all Force Sensitives. I wanted to ask, that how she intended to trigger another echo? By making the Exile kill her at the heart of Malachor? Then she succeeded didn't she?
No, by then she just wanted the Exile to kill her to succeed her; the master must kill the apprentice.
In order to kill these Force sensitives, an echo of a magnitude similar to the one created by the Exile at Malachor must be triggered, and Kreia thought that the magnitude of the echoes created due to her death at the hands of the Exile at Malachor would be enough to kill the Force Sensitives? Surely not?
No, I don't believe so. Her death might have been necessary for the sealing of the wound at Malachor, but I don't believe it was ever part of her plan for destroying the Force.
And Atris said that if the Exile did not follow her to Malachor, she will kill herself, resulting in the death of the Exile as well. Did she mean this or was it another one of her lies? I think she was speaking the truth, because if she killed herself on Malachor, the Exile would be caught unprepared and would die of the pain too (like on Dantooine (dark side version))
Who knows? Kreia's obviously a hypocrite and a liar, but what she does takes some serious guts. Would she kill herself just to prove a point? Wouldn't surprise me.
Well Kreia said that if echoes like the one the Exile created were created in succession, it would lead to the death of all Force sensitives. But I think the magnitude of these echoes are not all the same.

Obviously, the magnitude of the echo created by the activation of the MSG is much larger than ones created by small acts of charity or cruelty.
"From the smallest of actions, the smallest of cruelties and kindnesses, great tragedies are made."
If she wants to kill Force Sensitives, she would have to come up with a better plan that would create echoes of a larger magnitude right? If she wanted echoes, she could've just let Nihilus consume Telos lol
That uh... that was the plan. The fate of the Republic depends on Telos. The fate of the galaxy depends on the Republic.

But I don't think she really had a plan to destroy the Force. The galaxy isn't ready to give up the Force, and there's nothing she can do about it. Hell, even Kreia couldn't give up the Force. But she can help the only person who has made the choice to do so. Perhaps it's just that - a choice. You can't force it upon anyone, let alone the whole galaxy. And perhaps the galaxy will choose to give up the Force due to the Exile's influence. Someday.

arsenalforever
06-19-2012, 01:22 AM
Even if the Exile is - indirectly - responsible for creating the wound at Malachor, the wound that Nihilus and the other Sith feed on, to blame the Exile for everything they do with that power is still not fair. The Exile could have done the same thing, but chose not to.

Nihilus and the Sith feed on Force sensitives, not the wound created by the Exile right? They themselves are wounds.


Her death WAS a part of her plans to end the Force right? She wanted the Exile to kill her, which would send out echoes (whether this plan was a sound one or not is a different matter).


Her death might have been necessary for the sealing of the wound at Malachor, but I don't believe it was ever part of her plan for destroying the Force.

Why would HER death seal the wound at Malachor? She has nothing to do with Malachor right? It's the Exile who's related to Malachor. And it is the destruction of Malachor that sealed the wound, not Kreia's death right?

JCarter426
06-19-2012, 01:42 AM
Nihilus and the Sith feed on Force sensitives, not the wound created by the Exile right? They themselves are wounds.
I only meant it in the metaphorical sense. They learned their power to feed on Jedi from the wound.
Her death WAS a part of her plans to end the Force right? She wanted the Exile to kill her, which would send out echoes (whether this plan was a sound one or not is a different matter).
No, I don't believe so. I believe she wanted the Exile to kill her because she views that as an apprentice's final test. Even if she wants to kill the Force, Kreia believes in the Sith teachings to some extent. It's also a bit of an ego trip, as it's the goal of any teacher for their student to surpass them; when you're someone who can kill people with your brain, killing you is the only possible proof. Twisted, I know.
Why would HER death seal the wound at Malachor? She has nothing to do with Malachor right? It's the Exile who's related to Malachor.
She was Darth Traya once. She was the headmistress of the Trayus Academy. She taught Sion and Nihlius there. She taught Revan, who designed the wound there, the wound that corrupted all his followers. She's very much connected to Malachor.
And it is the destruction of Malachor that sealed the wound, not Kreia's death right?
Well no... mainly it's the Exile facing Malachor. The destruction might be a part of it as a final act to completely wipe out the memory of what happened there, to forget the past and look to the future. But Kreia's death serves the same purpose, on a more personal level.

arsenalforever
06-19-2012, 08:50 AM
Kreia says " I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve so measure of balance, when countless lives are lost"

What does this mean?


Yes, but with her goal of getting rid of the force, she teaches her student to use it. Perhaps it does go along with her ideal of using the force like a poison, but given that the Exile would rely heavily on the force, it should be obvious to anyone that the Exile would fight against such a goal, dark or light.

But the Exile does not rely heavily on the Force? If he did, he wouldn't have been able to sever his connection?

JCarter426
06-19-2012, 09:03 AM
Kreia says " I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve so measure of balance, when countless lives are lost"

What does this mean?
Well, what is Star Wars about? Wars. IN SPACE. With Jedi. For thousands of years, powerful Force users have fought each other in horrible wars on a galactic scale. The Jedi claim the Force controls everything, that it's trying to reach a balance.

The Force must be a real ****, surely.

I also think that Kreia doesn't like the idea of being manipulated in any way, since she takes pride in her ability to manipulate others. But the Force uses everyone. If you believe in an energy field that connects everyone, and controls their destinies, it can seem like the universe is conspiring against you. In a sense, everyone in the galaxy is manipulating Kreia! Must drive her wacko.

Tharr
08-16-2013, 07:55 AM
Hello
I have a question ... I read somewhere that when you return to meet with the Jedi Masters on Dantooine , if you killed 2 of them and remain only one there is another plot then if you killed all ore none , it is true?

What happen if there are 2 of them, same like 3 I suspect.

I played TSL many times but this option(remain only 1 jedi master) did not crossed my mind ...

Codeluke
08-16-2013, 12:33 PM
The storyline of TSL never fails to disappoint me. Just finished another DS playthrough and it's such an incredible journey. The Death of the Force; mind=blown. Just the sheer depth of Kreia's lectures and endless possibilities have me coming back for more. Man KotOR III would have been so flippin good.

MsFicwriter
08-20-2013, 10:06 PM
Somewhere I read that Kreia was Chris Avellone's attempt to flesh out his "beefs" with the Star Wars universe. Am I insane? Was this only a figment of my imagination? If not, where can I read this [article] again?

Also, if you're a Dark Side Exile and you choose to remain on Malachor V, letting the planet remain intact, then what? Do you keep on trying to feed off of Force Sensitives and the galaxy? Do you continue your attempts to wound the Force and make more echoes? With the Sith Triumvirate dead, who can possibly defeat you in these goals?

You're shown hurling Kreia's dead body into the Trayus Core in the Dark Side ending, but what happens to her corpse if you're Light Side? Do you carry it with you on the Ebon Hawk so you can give her a proper burial on some other planet, or cremate her instead?

One more question: What happens to Kreia's soul after she dies? Jedi become one with the Force, as Vader did at the end of "Return of the Jedi", but what of her? Is she simply extinguished, so that she can't ever come back as a Force ghost?

Bob Saget
08-21-2013, 12:28 AM
Somewhere I read that Kreia was Chris Avellone's attempt to flesh out his "beefs" with the Star Wars universe. Am I insane? Was this only a figment of my imagination? If not, where can I read this [article] again?


No, she represented the Anti-Jedi. Basically, she showed how the world in star wars shouldn't/isn't as black and white as the sith and jedi make it to look. Avellone used her to create a more dynamic Dark Side/Light side dichotomy.


Also, if you're a Dark Side Exile and you choose to remain on Malachor V, letting the planet remain intact, then what? Do you keep on trying to feed off of Force Sensitives and the galaxy? Do you continue your attempts to wound the Force and make more echoes? With the Sith Triumvirate dead, who can possibly defeat you in these goals?


Presumably you're awaiting the arrival of the true sith. That ending wasn't exactly well thought out and we just assume it's out to our imaginations

You're shown hurling Kreia's dead body into the Trayus Core in the Dark Side ending, but what happens to her corpse if you're Light Side? Do you carry it with you on the Ebon Hawk so you can give her a proper burial on some other planet, or cremate her instead?


No, her death was cut due to time constraints. In both endings she died by falling into the core

MsFicwriter
08-21-2013, 11:49 PM
I have a few questions about Visas Marr:

1. Out of all the Miraluka on Katarr that Darth Nihilus slaughtered, why did he choose Visas as his apprentice? Was her ability to "see" through the Force more keen than those of her people?

2. If Visas remains on the Dark Side of the Force, Kreia says after her defeat: "The blind one shall return to her home planet, and see what she was meant to see." What does this mean? What was Visas meant to see if she stayed on the path of revenge and hatred?

3. I know that Kreia is definitely not a fan of any of the Exile's companions, but as for Visas, I don't quite understand why our favorite "teacher" dislikes her. Sure, she has ties to Nihilus, but is that the only reason Kreia's wary of her?

Nick Vader
08-22-2013, 09:41 AM
Hello
I have a question ... I read somewhere that when you return to meet with the Jedi Masters on Dantooine , if you killed 2 of them and remain only one there is another plot then if you killed all ore none , it is true?

What happen if there are 2 of them, same like 3 I suspect.

I played TSL many times but this option(remain only 1 jedi master) did not crossed my mind ...

During one of my playthroughs of this game, I killed Zez and Vrook, but let Kavar live.

Intrestingly enough, when I arrived at Dantooine Kavar immediately spoke of my betrial to the Jedi and attacked me. No conversation was available.

Hope I helped.

Rtas Vadum
08-22-2013, 05:09 PM
I have a few questions about Visas Marr:

1. Out of all the Miraluka on Katarr that Darth Nihilus slaughtered, why did he choose Visas as his apprentice? Was her ability to "see" through the Force more keen than those of her people?

I'd imagine that it's a similar situation to the Exile and Kreia, in that a bond was forged between the two, likely when he walked on the planet's surface(if that image on her wiki page is true). Although the reason he would've done so, is because he likely saw a flicker of life on a dead world, and was curious.


2. If Visas remains on the Dark Side of the Force, Kreia says after her defeat: "The blind one shall return to her home planet, and see what she was meant to see." What does this mean? What was Visas meant to see if she stayed on the path of revenge and hatred?

Depends on if you mean in Nihilus' view, or her view after she travels with a DS Exile. Considering Nihilus, it would've been her simply believing to the end, as he did. Perhaps in some respects she already did(and in a way still does just after she joins the party), but to the point were she would see no more than a dead world, and believe things are as they should be. As for her views after traveling with a DS exile, she might not see things that differently, save for the fact that she would stand on the sight of tragedy, knowing that, at least as much as could be done, she has taken revenge on the one responsible - even if she didn't land the killing blow herself.


3. I know that Kreia is definitely not a fan of any of the Exile's companions, but as for Visas, I don't quite understand why our favorite "teacher" dislikes her. Sure, she has ties to Nihilus, but is that the only reason Kreia's wary of her?

Presumably because she is the only other that has come close to "seeing" in the same manner as Kreia and the Exile. But where the exile can be manipulated, as can some of the other party members, Visas, as it seems, might understand how to resist it. And thus, it comes down to her not liking the fact that it is someone that she cannot manipulate. Plus, unlike the Exile, who doesn't see the truth about Kreia until late in the game, Visas is likely aware on some level. After all, she is the one who confronts Kreia after the Enclave scene.

Here is an interesting thought - the Character menu is how the Exile sees the party. For most, it likely provides the truth. But for Kreia? It lies. Or that is how the Exile is forced to see her.