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Tommycat
11-07-2012, 01:42 PM
Following this election I have heard numerous people claim that "Republicans need to do something to woo more Latinos and African Americans to their side."

But HOW? African Americans vote Democrat by a VAST majority. Generally above 90%. This in spite of the fact that we DO have quite a few prominent African Americans in the party. Personally I loved Herman Cain for the primary, then the blah blah woof woof about his sexual conduct. Here in AZ we have Vernon Parker, an African American. But he isn't drawing the black vote. No matter what we do, we get called the racist party. I think that's pretty well a lost cause.

I honestly think that we really need to take a step back and review our priorities instead. Many people actually agreed with Mitt on fiscal matters, but I think it's the social matters that really turned the tides. Here are the things that I think need to be changed by the Republican Party:

1) DROP THE OVERLY RELIGIOUS! Seriously! Yes, we were founded on Christian Ideals. BUT we are not just a Christian nation. We are especially not a hard core evangelical nation.

2) Support ending the war on drugs! It's a huge financial drain that produces very little if any results. It jails many people who otherwise would be upstanding citizens. It also adds to the unemployed and those who are on the government dole, as a conviction for a drug related offense now has his job options severely limited. It's like Prohibition. All it did was create a new criminal organization.

3) ABORTION IS LEGAL, GET OVER IT! Really... this is a losing proposition for Republicans. Support only ensuring that they are safe for the mother. I don't think it should be free, but it should be available.

4) Stop opposing safe sex education. For heaven's sake... You cannot just teach abstinence only. It does not work for everyone. Inform kids that yes, abstinence is the best way to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, but by no means is it the only way. You don't want abortions, but oppose safe sex education? SERIOUSLY???! Education is the best defense. Yes, ideally it should be the parents, but they are not doing their job, so let the schools do it.

5) Along those lines... Stay out of people's bedrooms. If Adam and Steve want to get married. SO BLOODY WHAT! Let them. I don't want the federal or local governments in my bedroom. Neither do same sex couples.

That's my 5 point plan to get the Republican party back on track. What are your ideas?

(And don't bother posting if you are simply going to say that the Republicans need to go away. Unless you are saying that both parties should... But This is more for what would be CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, not essentially "Go away you racist republicans")

Q
11-07-2012, 04:12 PM
I agree with everything you're saying.

The GOP is just clueless when it comes to social issues, and I really don't see that changing until the older generation dies off.

kyrie
11-07-2012, 05:06 PM
I agree with everything you say about what needs to change in the GOP, get the batsh!t crazy people out. There is such a thing as being too far right, the ultra right wing are boarderline fascists just as the ultra left wing are boarderline socialists. Yes fascism and socialism are 2 different political views. Until the GOP embraces the ideals of the party of Lincoln, T.R. and Ike they will continue to slip into the history of our country.I have heard all about the GOP before Nixon. What happened to the party that embraced the building of our infrastructure, or the trust busters that they were before the 1920's? Ike in the 1950's who believed in the idea of the rich sacrificing more money to the betterment of our country as a whole. I am an old school republican who has been pushed out by the ideas of the party. I am a fiscal conservative who actually embraces true fiscal responsibility. It is possible to keep a strong military but do we really need to be the policeman of the world and spend twice as much as the rest of the world combined?

mur'phon
11-07-2012, 05:08 PM
Not a big fan of the Republicans, but it's fun to discuss how to make them electable. Oh, and my suggestions are strictly what I think will help them get elected, not what I would like them to do.

Things they could do to win votes (regarding the next presidential election).

1: Support immigration reform. Yes, it'll be controversial within the party, however, those Latinos are going to keep increasing their share of the vote, so you better find something to woo them. That and the business wing will love it.

2: The day Obamacare takes effect in earnest is the day getting rid of it is going to be nigh on impossible. Sure, reform it if you want, but remember why you where terrified of touching health care for the elderly, the same applies here to a large extent. Bonus: this will also help with the Latinos.

3: You are on the wrong side of the electorate when it comes to abortion. Do something about it but remain more restrictive than the democrats (to keep social conservatives from deserting). Bonus: women will like this.

4: Gay marriage is so far almost a tie, but it'll get worse, so either do something about it now or after the next election.

5: Leave drugs alone, you are on the side of the majority of the electorate for now (and among your voters especially so). Really wish it was different. Alternatively, do not prosecute those using drugs where said drugs are legal, while being officially against it.

6: Don't bother with the blacks, they are not increasing their share, are mainly located in safe states, and are going to be a nightmare to persuade.

Pho3nix
11-07-2012, 05:21 PM
I agree with everything you're saying.

The GOP is just clueless when it comes to social issues, and I really don't see that changing until the older generation dies off.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/Pho3nix-/1329853034857.jpg

Though looking back at human history, new generations never guarantee anything. Here's to hoping for a change in human consciousness for the better.

Tommycat
11-07-2012, 05:52 PM
mur'phon
1) The thing about immigration reform is we DO support reform, but not amnesty. Granted it would win us a large majority of hispanics to do so, it just loses those of us in border states. For getting elected, it might be a good idea though.

2) As a more moderate Republican, I know exactly where we went wrong on the Obamacare issue. We should have offered a better alternative. People get a bit scared when you talk about getting rid of something like that. But you need to have some form of health care reform, because the prior system was not working.

3) Yep. Abortion should be off the Republican platform. Or if it remains, move more towards regulation to make it safer and more consistent.

4) As I said, get outta people's bedrooms. Those that are heterosexual(outside the extremes) could care less about gays. It's not an issue that they think about. Those that are gay, it's a pretty big issue.

5) My point on the war on drugs is that it's working it from the wrong angle. Rather than trying to cut the heads off the hydra, simply treat the people who have the addiction. regulate and tax the ever lovin poop outta recreational pharmaceuticals like we do with ciggies and booze. Gives people the opportunity to enjoy themselves, adds to the revenue, cuts spending(by BILLIONS). If nothing else stop prosecuting specific drugs like pot.

6) Sadly, I know. Probably better than you do. It's probably going to take getting the african american population to actually listen to Republicans first before we can get even a chance of bringing them to our side. That wouldn't happen with a rich white guy candidate going against a black president. So this time there was almost zero chance of winning them this time.

thejman217
11-07-2012, 06:29 PM
My five point plan:

1.) Keep abortion legal. I don't believe abortion should be made illegal. This would be very inconvenient for the women who are raped and those with SERIOUS health concerns. One senator (can't remember for the life of me) even went as far as to say: "Being impregnated, no matter which method in which it occurs, is god's will." Another more unusual comment, in my opinion, was: "The body of a woman has the ability to keep the sperm from creating an infant once it enters the body" which is why i believe he lost his senator position in one of the states in one of the Michigan/Cleveland/Indiana/Illinois areas. I feel that the woman should make her own decision, and then live with the consequences no matter what they may be.

2.) Tell Bill O'Reilly to stop calling the whites in America now the minority. I know that the Republican party holds no REAL power over the Fox News Network (which is a republican station), but America is still two-thirds white (66%), so they could ask him to tone it down.

3.) Bring production back to America along with energy independence, and stop exporting jobs to China and other places. Governor Romney is a big fan of this, though he denies it.

4.) Reconsider beliefs on the right to bear arms without registration (do I have to list the reasons and consequences?).

5.) Keep gay marriage legal. Most versions of the bible state that gay marriage is intolerable/wrong/etc. Romney wanted to make gay marriage illegal. I don't know about what others here think, but it sounds to me like he's trying to impose his religion on the country, whether he is doing it on purpose or not.

Alexrd
11-07-2012, 06:36 PM
I'm not American, but I am conservative. From an outsider POV, I need to ask a couple of questions before supporting your statement:

1) DROP THE OVERLY RELIGIOUS! Seriously! Yes, we were founded on Christian Ideals. BUT we are not just a Christian nation. We are especially not a hard core evangelical nation.

I would agree. Being a christian myself, I think there is an excessive "bad rep" around the Republicans that they are "a bunch of fundamentalists". Religion is important, but it shouldn't be the center focus of a political party.

2) Support ending the war on drugs! It's a huge financial drain that produces very little if any results. It jails many people who otherwise would be upstanding citizens. It also adds to the unemployed and those who are on the government dole, as a conviction for a drug related offense now has his job options severely limited. It's like Prohibition. All it did was create a new criminal organization.

I don't know how it works there, but arrest should be used only for cases with heavy drugs. The rest should be dealt with with fines.

3) ABORTION IS LEGAL, GET OVER IT! Really... this is a losing proposition for Republicans. Support only ensuring that they are safe for the mother. I don't think it should be free, but it should be available.

If it still is under discussion, I think abortion should only be legal in cases of rape, malformation of the fetus, or when the mother's life is at risk. I believe people should be responsible for their actions. Everyone is free to do whatever they want, as long as they accept the consequences. If you have sex, there is an high risk that you can get pregnant. If you use protection, there is a much smaller chance of that happening (but there is a chance nonetheless). If people know this, how can they act surprised when it happens? How can they claim that "we" are telling a woman what to do with her body, when she was the one who decided that?

This is just my view on the abortion issue (I know it may have flaws), and I don't expect everyone or anyone to agree with me.

4) Stop opposing safe sex education. For heaven's sake... You cannot just teach abstinence only. It does not work for everyone. Inform kids that yes, abstinence is the best way to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, but by no means is it the only way. You don't want abortions, but oppose safe sex education? SERIOUSLY???! Education is the best defense. Yes, ideally it should be the parents, but they are not doing their job, so let the schools do it.

Agreed. That is essential.

P.S:
No matter what we do, we get called the racist party. I think that's pretty well a lost cause.

It's a bit ironic how some of the media pass that idea out, but don't mention the amount of people who vote for Obama (or support him) based on his skin colour. And a lot of people do. To me, that's racism aswell. Ideally, the colour of one person' skin should be irrelevant. The end.

thejman217
11-07-2012, 06:57 PM
It's a bit ironic how some of the media pass that idea out, but don't mention the amount of people who vote for Obama (or support him) based on his skin colour. And a lot of people do. To me, that's racism aswell. Ideally, the colour of one person' skin should be irrelevant. The end.

I am a Democrat (and yes, there are many flaws within our party, as well as the Republicans'), but I also find it very strange that the Republican party is considered a racist party. If I'm not mistaken, there are several African-American politicians holding very high positions in the Republican party.

On the other hand, many, many people's political views are based off of what TV political stations say. NBC calls the Republican party racist because they claim that the Republicans said that they are "shocked" that so many white voters cast their vote for Obama.

It is a sad thing when I see people in my school base their political views based on what Fox, NBC, CNN, and others say. People should form their opinions on the Presidential candidates based on what they believe in, not what others (their parents, or news stations) believe in. For example, conservatives that regularly watch Fox claim that Obama is a socialist/communist, he wasn't born in the U.S., or that he is a Muslim because his middle name is Hussein. On the other hand, Democrats who regularly watch NBC claim that that Romney, Ryan, and the rest of the Republican party are racist.

It both confuses me and intrigues me to no end.

Alexrd
11-07-2012, 07:21 PM
I am a Democrat (and yes, there are many flaws within our party, as well as the Republicans'), but I also find it very strange that the Republican party is considered a racist party. If I'm not mistaken, there are several African-American politicians holding very high positions in the Republican party.

On the other hand, many, many people's political views are based off of what TV political stations say. NBC calls the Republican party racist because they claim that the Republicans said that they are "shocked" that so many white voters cast their vote for Obama.

It is a sad thing when I see people in my school base their political views based on what Fox, NBC, CNN, and others say. People should form their opinions on the Presidential candidates based on what they believe in, not what others (their parents, or news stations) believe in. For example, conservatives that regularly watch Fox claim that Obama is a socialist/communist, he wasn't born in the U.S., or that he is a Muslim because his middle name is Hussein. On the other hand, Democrats who regularly watch NBC claim that that Romney, Ryan, and the rest of the Republican party are racist.

It both confuses me and intrigues me to no end.

True.

In my country there aren't many party-related newspapers or TV channels. But when something happens to the media sector (either cuts in salary, or the government privatizing some media companies that cost too much) they can forget their deontology and ethics and become a bunch of sensationalists whose news and opinions end up affecting the public's view (it's happening right now, unfortunately).

Canderis
11-07-2012, 07:21 PM
Honestly, i wish we never saw what the politicians looked like. If we never knew what color they were or religion or what, and only judged them on what they stood for i think our country would be quite a bit better off.

mur'phon
11-07-2012, 08:03 PM
@: Tommy: My suggestions was for wining votes, not things I'm in favor of. If I was to list how I want the republicans to change, I'd have different suggestions.
Also, on immigration, it might be enough to simply put a "path to citizenship" bill in front of Obama before he can present one himself. Of course this probably won't happen. Sure make the illegals work to get citizenship, but right now, the only thing that has proven effective for keeping them out is a tanking economy.

Originally posted by thejman217 .3) Bring production back to America along with energy independence, and stop exporting jobs to China and other places. Governor Romney is a big fan of this, though he denies it.

There is a reason why every politician say they'll do it but never does, so I'm kinda curious how you want to achieve this without hurting the average american.

thejman217
11-07-2012, 09:48 PM
There is a reason why every politician say they'll do it but never does, so I'm kinda curious how you want to achieve this without hurting the average american.

How would bringing back production to the U.S. (giving back jobs to the laid off Americans) and making us energy independent (giving back even more jobs) hurt the average American. I'm no politician, but how would it harm us?

how you want to achieve this

Hah. I am not the president, or any other politician for that matter! XD

Tommycat
11-07-2012, 10:41 PM
For my perspective, the reason I would not limit abortion only to rape is to prevent people from feeling like they have to cry rape to get an abortion. It's also to prevent someone who may have been traumatized from having to explain it to cops. Sure, a woman who is raped should report it immediately, but sometimes they hurt too much. Another thing is that some men actually use pregnancy to tie down their women. Keeping them barefoot and pregnant blah blah woof woof.

mur'phon: This is a wish list essentially. It's not like it's going to affect policy, or really change the party, so feel free to point out what you would have the Republican party strive for.

As for the immigration reform, I actually kinda like the DREAM act. BUT I did not like that it was back doored in. Right when AZ wins the right to check people's citizenship, Obama fired that off... But I'm a little close to that issue. It's also why my land down near the border is essentially a biological hazard. Thanks to the president several more illegal border crossers died in the southern AZ desert. (as I said, I'm a little too close to the issue)

How would bringing back production to the U.S. (giving back jobs to the laid off Americans) and making us energy independent (giving back even more jobs) hurt the average American. I'm no politician, but how would it harm us?
Um... shipping jobs overseas was AFTER Romney left Bain. Or are you talking about the external company that moved the phone bank overseas...(source (http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-outsourcer-overreach/)) You might want to be a bit more specific.... But really sending jobs overseas or not is NOT the job of the president. You can provide incentives, tax breaks, write offs, or even grants to businesses that hire within the US, but then that would be "Giving money to the wealthiest 1%"

OR you could up the spending and spend a boatload more cash on weapons development which must be done within the US by US citizens to prevent foreign persons from getting the designs to your latest military hardware... I mean it's not like we're worried about a budget crisis or anything.

mur'phon
11-08-2012, 09:46 AM
How would bringing back production to the U.S. (giving back jobs to the laid off Americans) and making us energy independent (giving back even more jobs) hurt the average American. I'm no politician, but how would it harm us?

Because the tools for doing so tend to hurt the average american. Take the "moving jobs back part". If politicians put a massive toll on foreign goods to bring back production, that'll A:make those goods way more expensive, hurting the average american and B: make the rest of the world retaliate by putting a massive toll on american goods, killing exports. Same applies to most conventional ways of getting jobs back/energy independence.

Oh, and regarding abortion, another reason for keeping the law liberal is that plenty of women will take illegal (and dangerous) abortions if the law is restrictive.

Alright, now for the wishlist.

1: Taxes are a means to an end, not the devil himself. Identify the ends you want then check which taxes you can live with/concede while negotiating with the democrats, because lets face it, if you want to balance the books, you need to do it with one messy compromise.

2: There is no big scientists conspiracy. Scientific consensus is not a perfect guide to the truth, but it's the best we have.

3: The military isn't sacred, an the world is not filled with large foes who plot your destruction. More butter, less guns (or heck less guns lover taxes if that sounds nicer).

4: Keep in mind your own interests in the middle east, put some serious pressure on both Israel and the Palestinians to get a permanent solution to that conflict (and do it before you risk having Israels neighbors turn hostile). Seriously, there are few things as responsible (fairly or not) for Americas problems with other nations and motivating terrorists. This applies to the democrats too.

5: Cut ties with the social conservatives.

6: Point one and two from my first post.

Sabretooth
11-08-2012, 11:07 AM
tl;dr version of thread:

Be more like the Democrats to win the elections.

kyrie
11-08-2012, 12:39 PM
Um... shipping jobs overseas was AFTER Romney left Bain. Or are you talking about the external company that moved the phone bank overseas...(source (http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-outsourcer-overreach/))

There is a video out there on the internets when Mitt was at Bain talking about how they moved production to China to make more money for his shareholders

Because the tools for doing so tend to hurt the average american. Take the "moving jobs back part". If politicians put a massive toll on foreign goods to bring back production, that'll A:make those goods way more expensive, hurting the average american and B: make the rest of the world retaliate by putting a massive toll on american goods, killing exports. Same applies to most conventional ways of getting jobs back/energy independence.

Our exports already have huge tariffs on them going to countries that we have free trade agreements with, why do you think Jeep is moving their production for the Chinese market to China? Most of the free trade agreements that this country has only work 1 way, what we need are fair trade agreements then products coming into this country from others will have tariffs just like our products going elsewhere. We have a $41.5 billion export deficit according to the US census stats, which means we bring 41.5 billion dollars more worth of goods into this country than goes out to the rest of the world. That is huge. A good reason to bring alot of domestic production back to the states is this: What if China all of a sudden decides it doesn't need to deal with us anymore and calls in the $1.4 trillion in debt it owns of ours and shuts us off on goods being imported by us? This is a national security issue as well. If we ever end up in a world war again we are totaly screwed most of the factories that would be needed for us to build everything we would need no longer exist, we are not the powerhouse in manufacturing we once were.

(source (http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2012/10/02/how-income-inequality-is-damaging-the-u-s/)) Here is an article from a very conservative magazine called Forbes about the income inequality in this country and how it is damaging us.

(source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_high-income_effective_tax_rates.png/) A chart showing tax rates on the wealthiest Americans from 1945 to 2009.

(source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CEO_pay_v._average_slub.png/) CEO pay growth from 1966 to 2009

(source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Union_membership_in_us_1930-2010.png/) union membership 1930 to 2010

(source (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-02/top-1-got-93-of-income-growth-as-rich-poor-gap-widened.html/) article from Bloomberg about income gap

Tommycat
11-08-2012, 01:05 PM
There is a video out there on the internets when Mitt was at Bain talking about how they moved production to China to make more money for his shareholders.

I provided my source. So please give me some kind of cite. I mean Fact Check was kind enough to disprove it, so now you are calling the fact checking site wrong...

kyrie
11-08-2012, 02:40 PM
I provided my source. So please give me some kind of cite. I mean Fact Check was kind enough to disprove it, so now you are calling the fact checking site wrong...

No I am not, and I am man enough to admit when I get my facts wrong too.

thejman217
11-08-2012, 05:08 PM
Please don't turn this into a series of accusational posts and a bunch of "You're Wrong"s.....I am just merely asking questions and looking for answers to those questions.

"Kavar's Corner: A place for friendly discussion of serious topics."

kyrie
11-08-2012, 05:55 PM
I had no problem with being told I was wrong on that, I admit I was wrong.

Tommycat
11-08-2012, 06:03 PM
I thought this was a rather civil discussion. We asked for a rather important detail.

The point was, some of what you ask for is out of the party's hands. Or even to a degree are what the party wanted(Bringing overseas jobs back home was IN this year's platform), and it didn't help because people like yourself believe the party was for the opposite(not an accusation, just an observation). Perhaps Romney saying it in every stump speech wasn't enough. But I think the message wasn't powerful enough in people's minds.

At any rate, I was pointing out to you that while it sounds nice to say all that, the president really has little to do with it(might be why he failed as well). Here's what he can do. Make suggestions to Congress who will either listen to him, or ignore him. That's as far as he is able to go for the creation of a bill. There's a huge disconnect about HOW to bring those jobs back.

kyrie
11-08-2012, 08:00 PM
I have an idea about how to do it, give financial incentives to the companies that open businesses here in the US. For every dollar spent on payroll they get a dollar off their tax liabilty on profits, also lower the business tax rate to 18% instead of the 25% it is currently to give the true small businesses an incentive to claim the money as profits instead of as personal income. Also every dollar spent on new equipment made here comes off their tax liability instead of being treated as profits because those dollars are not profit they are a re-investment in their business and their workers. Thas is my opinions feel free to point out any flaws in my thinking.

Q
11-08-2012, 08:26 PM
tl;dr version of thread:

Be more like the Democrats to win the elections.
Except for the government takeover of private industry, regulating everything and quadrupling the debt part.

In other words, be more like Libertarians. :D

thejman217
11-08-2012, 10:28 PM
Actually, Kavar's was created so that a certain group of people could troll with impunity and pull rank on anyone who called them on it.

Are you being serious or sarcastic?

Ping
11-08-2012, 10:39 PM
All Republicans have to do is stop appealing to the Christian Right and become more moderate. People in general are more likely to vote for a moderate rather than an evangelical politician.

Q
11-08-2012, 10:56 PM
Tell that to my parents. :p

Tommycat
11-09-2012, 10:09 AM
I have an idea about how to do it, give financial incentives to the companies that open businesses here in the US. For every dollar spent on payroll they get a dollar off their tax liabilty on profits, also lower the business tax rate to 18% instead of the 25% it is currently to give the true small businesses an incentive to claim the money as profits instead of as personal income. Also every dollar spent on new equipment made here comes off their tax liability instead of being treated as profits because those dollars are not profit they are a re-investment in their business and their workers. Thas is my opinions feel free to point out any flaws in my thinking.

And then you hear "TAX CUTS FOR THE WEALTHIEST 1%!!!!111eleventy!!1"

mimartin
11-09-2012, 12:43 PM
I haven’t posted in Kavar’s in a non-moderator way in almost a year, but this is one topic that semi-interests me. However, I am not here to debate or discuss, you have your opinions and I am not here to convince you that you are right or wrong. I also care less about equal time or if my example of something shows bias...In other words I don’t care what you think about me, you do not know me.

These first few mainly go to both parties let’s face it neither party has a juggernaut hold on the electorate. Obama got 61,300,988 votes to Romney’s 58,228,478the country is divided. It swings back and forth with every election. This election I was really proud about the turn out, but when you look at the reasons for the turnout then the elation I feel for the turn out goes away quickly. I don’t pretend to know everyone’s motivation, but it is clear that some voted just to get rid of President Obama and would have voted for anyone to get the President out of office. It was also clear that some that were not overly happy with the President, still voted and contributed money to him just because of the extent some went to make his term a failure. We went through a downgrade in our credit for no other reason than to make the President a failure. Leadership in Congress implies that the President does not respect their equal power, yet wants to blame the President for their own failures. Americans are not that stupid.

1. Both sides need to quit the blame game and focus on their plans to make thing better. Quit saying stupid thing. No, Bush is not to blame for everything wrong with the economy now, but without the financial meltdown we wouldn’t have to dig ourselves out of the biggest hole since the Great Depression. The President isn’t total to blame either, had Congress done their job we would not have had our credit status downgraded which caused a further slow down to our economy.

2. Compromise is not a dirty word. Politicians are not there to line their own pockets or to let their petty power hungry pride cloud their duty. They are there to do the people’s business. Just because Speaker Boehner or President Obama are for something does not mean the other side has to be automatically against it. There is a middle ground and that is where national elections are won and lost. Even in a state like Texas where anyone with an R next to their name will win a statewide election Obama sill got 41.4% of the vote. This isn’t the Red and Blue states of America; this is the United States of America, so both sides need to act like it.

3. Quit making your only augment that anyone that disagrees with you is stupid, lazy, racist, communist, redneck, socialist, fascist, or on welfare… Quit saying anyone on the opposite side does not love their county. People can passionately love their county and want what they think is best for it, but have completely different ideas what that is.

Quit turning blind eyes to your sides’ extremist and quit making huge generalizations to support your side. Not all Republican are racist (some are and some democrats are too), Not all liberals hate their country (some do, but so do some conservatives do too). When someone from your party says something inheritably stupid and offensive, don’t defend them if you disagree, speak out how that is untrue. Don’t wait three days for the polls to tell you the people are unhappy with what he/she said to distance yourself and your party from the stupidity. It makes it look like you did agree with the statement and only moving now because the polls say you have to.

4. This is not a sporting event…Just because you win does not mean the American people win, sometime you are winning and the only losers are the American people.

5. When negotiating, negotiate honestly. This country is in deep and this is because of both parties. Everything must be on the table. When the liberals come in saying that Medicare is off the table, or the Republican come in saying defense is off the table they are both just being stupid. The only 2 things that should be off the table is Social Security because that isn’t the government’s money, but the people that paid into its money and veteran/soldiers benefits. These people kept their promise to us, we must keep our promises to them. Other defense spending should be on the table as should all entitlements.

Sure I could come up with more, like quit being hypocrites. Both parties do it and I am thinking of where they state something is a core belief, but then turn around and their biggest platform issue states just the opposite. Tommycat even used the Republican example in his list.

Enough...maybe I can wait another year before I post again.

Tommycat
11-09-2012, 01:35 PM
Both parties do it and I am thinking of where they state something is a core belief, but then turn around and their biggest platform issue states just the opposite. Tommycat even used the Republican example in his list.

Just for clarification, are you talking about how Republicans say they are for smaller government, and less government involvement in people's lives but are for restricting what a woman can do with her body, and telling people who they can or cannot marry? or pretty much my whole point about the war on Drugs where they are for fiscal responsibility and smaller government but waste billions on stopping people from doing what they want with their own bodies?

Other than that, I couldn't agree more. We are a nation of many views. More centrist. If anything, socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

mur'phon
11-09-2012, 01:56 PM
Our exports already have huge tariffs on them going to countries that we have free trade agreements with, why do you think Jeep is moving their production for the Chinese market to China? Most of the free trade agreements that this country has only work 1 way, what we need are fair trade agreements then products coming into this country from others will have tariffs just like our products going elsewhere.

Hardly, most free trade agreements concern industrial goods true, but that's because it is in the interest of the industrial countries (it's what we export). Thing is, almost all free trade agreements the US participate in are tilted towards it simply because getting an agreement is more important for (insert country) than the US. Sure, China has several mercantilistic policies in place, like just about every other country who was in a process of industrialization (with some semi exceptions). However even those are being curbed by its WTO membership.
Thing is, said shift in industrial production would A: have happened eventually (just like China is now loosing its clothing industry to cheaper countries) and B: benefits the US by making those industrial goods far cheaper for consumers. The US simply can't compete with the Chinese when it comes to producing many goods (and vice versa) trying to get those noncompetitive jobs back would be very costly just ask the (insert European country with massive subsidies for industry here).

That is huge. A good reason to bring alot of domestic production back to the states is this: What if China all of a sudden decides it doesn't need to deal with us anymore and calls in the $1.4 trillion in debt it owns of ours and shuts us off on goods being imported by us?

And why on earth would China do that? They buy bonds, which means they can't demand you pay it all back tomorrow. They can of course stop buying more debt, but that would make the debt they already own loose most of its value (and the US would probably just default, leaving China with nothing).
Yes they can stop exporting to you, but again motive? It would hurt them as much as it would hurt you, and even if they did, China doesn't have a monopoly on terribly many essentials, so buy from someone else.

This is a national security issue as well. If we ever end up in a world war again we are totaly screwed most of the factories that would be needed for us to build everything we would need no longer exist, we are not the powerhouse in manufacturing we once were.

If you end up in a world war again, nukes kinda makes that a non-issue.


I actually agree that income inequality is a bad thing (being a socialist Scandinavian and all). I just fail to see what it has to do with subsidizing jobs in noncompetitive industries.



I have an idea about how to do it, give financial incentives to the companies that open businesses here in the US. For every dollar spent on payroll they get a dollar off their tax liabilty on profits, also lower the business tax rate to 18% instead of the 25% it is currently to give the true small businesses an incentive to claim the money as profits instead of as personal income.

Depends on what you want to achieve, if you want to stimulate the service sector then fine, if you want to bring industry back, eh, less fine. Also, lowering the tax rate by such a massive amount on all businesses will have to be paid for somehow, and given the deficit...

mimartin
11-09-2012, 02:37 PM
Just for clarification. Yes... Was mainly thinking about telling women what to do.

However I will site a more personal one that applies to both parties which is also more personal to me as strongly support the freedom of speech. I also do not believe the flag should be burned in protest. I would never do it no matter what the government is. To me the flag does not represent the government of the United States, it represent all its people and it especially represents those that have fought, struggled and died to help this country preserver. However I have seen these some democrats and republicans that tout freedom of speech making this country great, propose supporting an amendment to outlaw flag burning. So as much as I respect the flag and everything it stands for including our freedom of speech, I would fight and die to defend those idiots that want to burn the flag while exercising their freedom of speech. The flag is merely a symbol of our freedom, the burning the flag as sickening as that is to me, is actually showing more respect to those that have fought, struggled and died to give them that freedom.

The thing about freedom is when you give people freedom they may choice to use that freedom in different ways. However, if they do not have that choice, then they really don't have the freedom.

Tommycat
11-09-2012, 03:20 PM
Couldn't agree more on the flag burning. My forefathers fought to defend the rights of those jerks to burn the flag that represents that freedom. And as much as it pains me to see it done, it's still their right.

It's why I oppose the "Hate Speech" laws as well. I detest it, but step back from outlawing it.

kyrie
11-09-2012, 03:40 PM
mimartin: Medicare should be off the table too seeing as it is taken out of our pay in payroll taxes same as social security, other than that I agree with what you are saying.

mimartin
11-09-2012, 04:38 PM
mimartin: Medicare should be off the table too seeing as it is taken out of our pay in payroll taxes same as social security, other than that I agree with what you are saying.nope medicare is a insurance and insurance has to change with the times. I am not saying get rid of it, but I am saying charging those that can afford it more, making it start later or cutting certain benefits is appropriate. Just think of this way, when Medicare started in 1965, the life expectancy was females 73.80, males 66.70. 2012 it is Females 81.73 and Males 75.94. In 1965 the average male only live 1.70 years after they qualified, now we are living almost 10 years into it.

Totenkopf
11-09-2012, 04:53 PM
Frankly, NOTHING should be off the table b/c of the severity of the crisis. No point sparing anyone from getting haircuts in their funding b/c we wanna play the scared cow game. The question isn't if, but by how much. People would be a lot more willing, even if grudgingly so, to pay a higher tax bill if they knew the money was only going to pay down the debt and not for special interest pet projects or misguided Keynesian boondoggles.

As to the Republicans, they need to better convey to people how bad the alternative is (at least from their POV) and stop taking a knife to a gunfight. Politics is dirty business and, unfortunately, that MO works (hell, Jefferson once claimed that Adams was a mentally unbalanced hermaphrodite and that was around 200 years ago). I've heard different dems push the demographic line, but that doesn't explain it as almost 12-15 million people fewer voted this time around than in 2008 (http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2008G.html). This was Romney's to lose......and he did. Also, confirms Robert's gambit to defeat obamacare at the ballot box a bad decision.

....Obama got 6,173,859 votes to Romney’s 5,8171,551...
wow, voter disinterest really must have been high this cycle. Not even sure if that second number is real. Must be mathematics...Biden style. :xp:

Also, regarding mim's point above, the same is true of Social Security.

mimartin
11-09-2012, 05:08 PM
wow, voter disinterest really must have been high this cycle. Not even sure if that second number is real. Must be mathematics...Biden style. :xp: yeah I went to the George W Bush school of mathematics....sorry.

Also, regarding mim's point above, the same is true of Social Security. Yeah, but neither side is going to touch it. It is political suicide, it is also different in the amount of money that the employee and the employer puts into it.

The Doctor
11-09-2012, 09:42 PM
Granted I haven't read the entirety of this thread yet, but I'm deeply grateful to see that there are actually still reasonable, rational Republicans and/or conservatives out there. You don't see many such individuals actively participating in North-American politics anymore.

From what I've seen north of the border in the last three elections I've been old enough to follow, the issues that are most bitterly disputed and used by both American parties to vilify the other are the major social issues - specifically things like abortion, marriage equality, etc. Matters that one would think should be easily resolved by a basic examination of America's foundation are dragged out, overblown, and used to paint the other guy as hating their country and/or its people.

So, in my mind, the single biggest thing modern right-wing American (and even to a somewhat lesser extent, other western) politicians need to do to become feasible and electable again is join the 21st century on the big social matters. There reaches a point where you're no longer the nation's social conscience, you're an impediment to much needed progress and advancement. And the only way to really avoid becoming such is (ironically) look backwards, and accept and promote the separation of Church and state as outlined by their own Constitution.

The United States were founded on the basis of morals and ethics that happen to be shared by Christianity. That's purely because Christianity was the predominant religion of the generation of European colonists who founded the nation. The same ethical guidelines are also shared by countless other religions throughout history. But the Union was not founded as a Christian state, and thus should not be governed by Christian law. The separation of Church and state is a massive part of what enables the very freedom of religion and expression that's been a staple element of American culture from day one, yet the same right-wing groups that cling so tightly to the "founding elements of [their] great nation" do all they can to impose their own religious beliefs on the government and thus the rest of the nation. I've never understood how one can cling to two such conflicting ideologies simultaneously.

Consider for a moment the matter of abortion. There has yet to be a sensible, non-religious argument for outright banning abortion. And these arguments and beliefs are perfectly fine, so long as you can freely admit that you oppose it because of your religious beliefs. But when you try to force the government into legislating and "validating" (for lack of a better term) your religious belief by outlawing the practice in line with your beliefs, you're intruding on the religious and expressive freedom of those who do not share your opinion. But by permitting and legislating the practice, no one's rights or freedoms are being compromised - those opposed to abortion are not going to be forced to get one. And the very same applies to the topic of marriage equality, as well - permitting open and equal marriage opportunities intrudes on no one's rights, but introducing legislation against it does.

Once the Republican party comes to terms with this basic fact - or, alternatively, those that do understand this toss out the crazies that refuse to come to terms with it - then the matters that really matter, such as the country's massive debt crisis, can be properly discussed and resolved by both parties, and an action plan that both parties have made compromises for will be able to pass the desk of any President, regardless of his party.

Totenkopf
11-09-2012, 09:44 PM
Yeah, but neither side is going to touch it. It is political suicide, it is also different in the amount of money that the employee and the employer puts into it.
Yeah, but it's still just as true nonetheless. Social Security wasn't designed as a retirement plan and there are fewer and fewer people now shouldering the burden of supporting the baby boomers. Damn shame any of that money was ever mixed in w/the general fund. O'course I guess Tim and Benny could keep the presses running so the old folks don't run out of their promised SS $$......(though given the size of that unfunded liability, hyperinflation would likely result).

yeah I went to the George W Bush school of mathematics....sorry.
I think Obama graduated from that alma mater a bit ahead of you. ;)

kyrie
11-09-2012, 11:35 PM
Granted I haven't read the entirety of this thread yet, but I'm deeply grateful to see that there are actually still reasonable, rational Republicans and/or conservatives out there. You don't see many such individuals actively participating in North-American politics anymore.

From what I've seen north of the border in the last three elections I've been old enough to follow, the issues that are most bitterly disputed and used by both American parties to vilify the other are the major social issues - specifically things like abortion, marriage equality, etc. Matters that one would think should be easily resolved by a basic examination of America's foundation are dragged out, overblown, and used to paint the other guy as hating their country and/or its people.

So, in my mind, the single biggest thing modern right-wing American (and even to a somewhat lesser extent, other western) politicians need to do to become feasible and electable again is join the 21st century on the big social matters. There reaches a point where you're no longer the nation's social conscience, you're an impediment to much needed progress and advancement. And the only way to really avoid becoming such is (ironically) look backwards, and accept and promote the separation of Church and state as outlined by their own Constitution.

The United States were founded on the basis of morals and ethics that happen to be shared by Christianity. That's purely because Christianity was the predominant religion of the generation of European colonists who founded the nation. The same ethical guidelines are also shared by countless other religions throughout history. But the Union was not founded as a Christian state, and thus should not be governed by Christian law. The separation of Church and state is a massive part of what enables the very freedom of religion and expression that's been a staple element of American culture from day one, yet the same right-wing groups that cling so tightly to the "founding elements of [their] great nation" do all they can to impose their own religious beliefs on the government and thus the rest of the nation. I've never understood how one can cling to two such conflicting ideologies simultaneously.

Consider for a moment the matter of abortion. There has yet to be a sensible, non-religious argument for outright banning abortion. And these arguments and beliefs are perfectly fine, so long as you can freely admit that you oppose it because of your religious beliefs. But when you try to force the government into legislating and "validating" (for lack of a better term) your religious belief by outlawing the practice in line with your beliefs, you're intruding on the religious and expressive freedom of those who do not share your opinion. But by permitting and legislating the practice, no one's rights or freedoms are being compromised - those opposed to abortion are not going to be forced to get one. And the very same applies to the topic of marriage equality, as well - permitting open and equal marriage opportunities intrudes on no one's rights, but introducing legislation against it does.

Once the Republican party comes to terms with this basic fact - or, alternatively, those that do understand this toss out the crazies that refuse to come to terms with it - then the matters that really matter, such as the country's massive debt crisis, can be properly discussed and resolved by both parties, and an action plan that both parties have made compromises for will be able to pass the desk of any President, regardless of his party.

I applaud you good sir, I couldn't agree more.

Totenkopf
11-10-2012, 11:22 AM
http://amarillo.com/opinion/opinion-columnist/weekly-opinion-columnist/2012-11-09/krauthammer-republicans-can-still-be

Qui-Gon Glenn
11-10-2012, 04:19 PM
Wearing magic underwear won't help their cause, methinks.

I have been away a long time, but I am pretty sure I played ME3MP with TOTENK0PF last night (?) and saw his post here, so I had to contribute a mindless add-on.

@OP: I would consider changing my voting allegiance were the GOP to implement your points. My Dad's head would also exploded that day, so it would be bittersweet.

Tommycat
11-11-2012, 12:33 AM
http://amarillo.com/opinion/opinion-columnist/weekly-opinion-columnist/2012-11-09/krauthammer-republicans-can-still-be

No offense to him(or you), but he's wrong. There comes a point when certain arguments are no longer in favor with the general public. For instance he says most women are against abortion, but the truth is that while someone may be against something it doesn't mean they are for the banning of it.

He talks about how the majority of the public feels the government does interfere too much... Well getting involved in people's sex lives goes even further. Bothering people about what they want to do with their own body goes too far(drugs for instance).

I was talking with my girlfriend today, and she's further to the right than I am, and even she agrees that we need to drop the war on drugs. Granted that was when I pointed out that it was capitalism in itself. While I don't do any drugs(I'm actually allergic to weed), I understand that much like cigarettes and alcohol, people will want to pay for their drugs. We should provide education and ways to get clean, but by no means force one type of business to underground.

We can still follow our core platform of smaller government. I think it's pretty important. We just need to expand what we mean by smaller government. People don't want the government telling them what to do with their bodies, or who they can or cannot marry.

Oh and The Doctor:
There has yet to be a sensible, non-religious argument for outright banning abortion.
I disagree. You may not have heard it, but I believe there have been a few. Not the least of which is that it is simply the expansion of the laws against murder, since the DNA is that of a human, distinctly divergent from the parent. The product of conception between sperm and egg of two humans is a new human that should have the same equal treatment as that of a full term human. Much as we do not(or at least should not) discriminate between a person of a different ethnic background we should not discriminate based on age.

But again, my reason for support of legal abortion comes from a purely compassionate source. I would not want a person to be forced to carry a child to term who was raped. In some cases forcing that woman to carry the child(or rather girl as in the cases of children who are raped) can in fact lead to the death of the woman(girl). That in my estimation is unconscionable. But again, purely emotional. Logically, it would still amount to murder of an innocent. But I am willing to take that hit for the sanity of the other victim.

Totenkopf
11-11-2012, 02:04 AM
I have been away a long time, but I am pretty sure I played ME3MP with TOTENK0PF last night (?) and saw his post here, so I had to contribute a mindless add-on.

Actually, don't do MP anything. Haven't even gotten TOR b/c of that (though w/F2P I might reconsider it in near future).

@TC--Well, as regards the war on drugs, it seems the Libretarians are the only ones I've seen seriously call for an end to that (maybe members of both of the other parties, but not so much the parties themselves). Re abortion, it seemed to me that Krauthammer was mostly allowing for rape/incest (hence the moron comment), but not abortion on demand (statistically 95%+ of all cases). In cases where it comes do to the health of the mother (ie only one party can be saved), it should be up to her. Some mothers have made that sacrifice. As to gay marriage, it should not be decided by judges, but rather by referendum (at the very least it'd likely be legal in the "blue" states in the not too distant future) as has been the case most recently.

War on drugs, though, is kind of tricky. Lots of money interests involved (govt, cartels, prisons, etc..). Don't think much of marijuana use personally, but the jails really shouldn't be full of small time users, there are better ways to handle that. However, should we go the route of legalization for all types of drugs, I say we throw he book at them like we do drunk drivers when they fall afoul of the law and not let their usage be an excuse.

Q
11-12-2012, 12:51 AM
^You should read this (http://old.nationalreview.com/12feb96/drug.html).

The war on drugs is complete bull****, as is the "defense of marriage" act.

Totenkopf
11-12-2012, 04:10 AM
Actually, Buckley was one of the people I'd had in mind.

Q
11-19-2012, 02:11 AM
And the wisest Republican in Congress is retiring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvGB9JXN2k8

There isn't a single point that he makes in this speech that I disagree with. He gets it, which is why there was no chance of his being elected president. :dozey:

Sylthar
12-16-2012, 08:33 PM
Following this election I have heard numerous people claim that "Republicans need to do something to woo more Latinos and African Americans to their side."

Yes, because adding a few "insignificant votes" will sway those who do the true voting. :rolleyes: Ideally, mass vote determines the Electoral College's vote, but in reality it doesn't. I'm not saying mass vote doesn't have some play in it, but if we went by mass vote, Romney probably would be in office right now.

But HOW? African Americans vote Democrat by a VAST majority. Generally above 90%. This in spite of the fact that we DO have quite a few prominent African Americans in the party. Personally I loved Herman Cain for the primary, then the blah blah woof woof about his sexual conduct. Here in AZ we have Vernon Parker, an African American. But he isn't drawing the black vote. No matter what we do, we get called the racist party. I think that's pretty well a lost cause.

I don't quite think it's our younger generation of Republicans (i.e. me and half the other students... or younger workers...) that feel this way. I think it's just that African Americans always play the "Black" card when they're arrested or whatever... it kind of makes our older crowd (which is the majority currently) slightly prejudiced. African Americans see our elders and assume that everyone in our party is like that... it's human nature to lump everyone that claims one set of beliefs to say we're all like that.

I honestly think that we really need to take a step back and review our priorities instead. Many people actually agreed with Mitt on fiscal matters, but I think it's the social matters that really turned the tides. Here are the things that I think need to be changed by the Republican Party:

Aye. I will admit that though I didn't like Romney to begin with, I did agree with him on a few issues. Then on almost all of his social issues I said a big hell no. Another thing is Romney was truly a big question mark to me. He did say a bunch of things that contradicted his earlier statements. I realize Obama's did too, but I've seen him in office for the past 4 years, so I know more about him than I truly did about Romney. (Yea, I voted for Obama as a Republican... shocker. :xp: )

1) DROP THE OVERLY RELIGIOUS! Seriously! Yes, we were founded on Christian Ideals. BUT we are not just a Christian nation. We are especially not a hard core evangelical nation.

I agree and yet I disagree with you on this statement. If the Republicans dropped their religious stance, then that puts them so much closer to being Democratic. That is one of the big things that distinguishes us from our... competitors, I guess you would call them. Does that mean that we have to base our social issues on Christianity? Of course not. We do have other members of other religions. Romney himself is proof of that... though Mormonism is incredibly similar to Christianity to a degree... but I know a bunch of Athiest and Buddist Republicans... in essence, I don't think they should go about saying "Oh Christianity is the best, everyone should be one of us..." and crap, but I do think that religion (any religion) as a whole makes Republicans what we are.

That being said, Democrats aren't exactly religious, but they do have their religions too and some of their beliefs go with the majority of their religion too...

2) Support ending the war on drugs! It's a huge financial drain that produces very little if any results. It jails many people who otherwise would be upstanding citizens. It also adds to the unemployed and those who are on the government dole, as a conviction for a drug related offense now has his job options severely limited. It's like Prohibition. All it did was create a new criminal organization.

I have no comment on this.

3) ABORTION IS LEGAL, GET OVER IT! Really... this is a losing proposition for Republicans. Support only ensuring that they are safe for the mother. I don't think it should be free, but it should be available.

I'm about as left handed a Republican as you'll find, but I do not agree with this. I believe under certain circumstances if there's a chance that at least one of them will survive, then abortion might be okay, but for the majority I believe that Abortion should be illegal. It is taking an innocent life. From the moment the sperm fertalizes that egg, it stops being an egg, it becomes a human, even if it has not fully formed yet. I see abortion as being equal to murdering a random innocent bystander. Self defense/self preservation of course should factor in, like if the mother will die if she gives birth, ect, I believe she should have that choice... but if someone gets pregnant and has the abortion just because... well she could have at least given birth (to that which she had a part in making, because she was a willing subject) and passed it up for adoption.

4) Stop opposing safe sex education. For heaven's sake... You cannot just teach abstinence only. It does not work for everyone. Inform kids that yes, abstinence is the best way to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, but by no means is it the only way. You don't want abortions, but oppose safe sex education? SERIOUSLY???! Education is the best defense. Yes, ideally it should be the parents, but they are not doing their job, so let the schools do it.


All I have to say about this is... AMEN. xD

5) Along those lines... Stay out of people's bedrooms. If Adam and Steve want to get married. SO BLOODY WHAT! Let them. I don't want the federal or local governments in my bedroom. Neither do same sex couples.

Hmm. I always hated that biblical analogy. Because, to be honest, God didn't even make Adam and Eve... he made Adam to be a stand alone person... then when he saw that Adam was lonely he created another person from his ribs. He didn't create Adam and Eve equally... he didn't make them at the same time. So really, if you go Bible wise, God made man to be asexual. :) (And just so we're clear, I'm a Christian... if you find this offensive, you honestly shouldn't... I wasn't attacking Christianity. :xp: )

However, I agree. I much liked it when the Military had the don't ask, don't tell policy (however they revoked that and as far as I know, homosexual men and women are no longer allowed to serve, though I could be wrong on that... I haven't really kept up with the military lately)... it would be better for everyone if the entire country was like that.

Tommycat
12-17-2012, 01:20 PM
Religion: I'm not saying drop religion altogether. Just don't base the majority of policy on religion. Don't place it on some stylite as if we must obey Christianity.

War on Drugs: At a minimum stop opposing Medical Marijuana, and even recreational.

Abortion: The problem is not abortion per se, it's the liberal application of it. IF it were really Safe and rare, as it is often touted, many of us wouldn't have a problem with it. But sometimes it's important to have it legal for reasons other than just rape, or the life of the mother. I mean my ex had 4 abortions because her prior boyfriend used pregnancy as a chain to keep her in the house. Besides, I don't want to have women forced to claim rape when the boyfriend breaks up with her after he finds out she's pregnant.

Safe Sex: We agree... nothing to add.

Adam and Eve/Steve: Technically, both Adam and Eve were created together.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Though Genesis 2 kind of contradicts that, as it then talks of making woman of man blah blah... Either way, I'm from a Christian background, but not Christian. Kind of like the nation. I have (mostly) Christian morals, but not tied to the Christian religion.

DADT: the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell was coupled with the military no longer caring about the answer to the question. If you're gay and admit it, there is no retribution from the military.

Sylthar
12-17-2012, 04:13 PM
War on Drugs: Aye, my great aunt had cancer an she smoke medical majiuana and it made the pain disappear according to my grandma. I agree for medicinal reasons it should be allowed...

Aye, I was basing it off of Genesis 2. But that's the Bible for you. Just like everything else, it contradicts itself. Honestly though, I'm not a 100% Bible devout follower. It was written by man for man. I realize they were Prophets, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone wrote what the did because of God. I mean for one there are a bunch of people who wrote more books of the Bible, but man dictated what went in the Bible.

Ah I was unaware of that regarding DADT. I'm glad that's the fact. :)