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Moses
09-23-2001, 04:06 PM
I just had a good idea on how to change force speed! :cool: You activate it and it constantly takes up mana until you stop running. You could use it to quickly run through a room but it may take up a large amount of force. Or (more likely) you could use it in a fight to parry and strike. It at least would stop people from (as someone said earlier) running around at Mach 4 the whole time.

Syndrix
09-23-2001, 04:38 PM
I like the idea, gives the user more control over Kyle and his powers. Although I would probably suggest being able to turn force speed off with the same button or way you turned it on. You shouldnt have to come to a complete stop if you dont want to, especially if your in the open.

While on the topic of force speed again, I hope it actually speeds up saber attacks and blocks also, which it rightfully should.

Obi Kwan
09-23-2001, 05:01 PM
I think that Force Speed would be best implimented if everyone and everything around you slowed down while you remained at normal speed. This would not be like bullet time because....wait, it would be just like bullet time. Never mind :)

ReAcToR
09-23-2001, 07:41 PM
You activate it and it constantly takes up mana until you stop running. You could use it to quickly run through a room but it may take up a large amount of force.

If the levels are very large, and I expect them to be, I think your idea would be a bad one. If the levels were small arena's, it would be a decent idea.


It at least would stop people from (as someone said earlier) running around at Mach 4 the whole time.


I don't see how "running around at Mach 4 the whole time" is a bad thing. Speed was a wonderful asset in JK/MotS and was easily countered by good players who learned to predict their opponents movement. While it could be argued that JK/MotS allowed you to use speed for too long, I would think that your idea is more of a penalty than an effective way to issue mana. They shouldn't tone down speed from JK/MotS too much, if at all, but maybe they could make it easier for newbians to get kills on good players who use speed. Such as splash damage or a way to hold them still, such as grip or pull. I also liked how, in JK/MotS, if you forced a player into a wall while he/she was traveling at a fast speed, it would increase the amount of damage on that player. Another good way to deal with speed in JK2.


I like the idea, gives the user more control over Kyle and his powers.


I think that it gives the user less control over Kyle and his powers.


I think that Force Speed would be best implimented if everyone and everything around you slowed down while you remained at normal speed.


Although this might be a decent idea for singleplayer, I think that it's a horrible idea for multiplayer. The reason alot of hardcore DMers play JK/MotS and Q3 is because of the hardcore/fast-paced gameplay. This would simply slow down gameplay.

Kurgan
09-23-2001, 09:49 PM
Despite what people are saying, I'd much rather be able to run around at "uncontrollabel speeds" than have everyone around me slow down or do a "bullet time" type of thing in JK2.

Besides, I would think it would be far easier to implement in MP.

Kurgan

SlowbieOne
09-24-2001, 02:54 PM
I liked how Force Speed was in JK. I don't think they should make it so it can be toggled.

However, there is one thing about Force Speed that should be changed, THAT ANNOYING SOUND. Not only does it hurt your ears after awhile, but it gives away your position.

Kettch
09-24-2001, 06:41 PM
Force Speed (and most of the other forces) are already toggleable in SBX2 for JK (MotS version is in work) and speeds drains much more mana than in the originak. It is a wonderful idea to make all (or almost all) forces toggleable. Mana recharging is speeded up to 2x in SBX2 too. And the annoying sounds are deleted in this mod =)

Attacking and blocking with the saber should drain the force too.

Krayt Tion
09-24-2001, 07:17 PM
I had no qualms with force speed in JK and MotS, in fact I very muched liked it.

I was very disappointed with the ex PC Obi-Wan approach where they were going to slow everything down in single player when Force Speed was activated; I don't think they were even going to have force speed in multiplayer.

Force speed too fast in JK? Don't put so many stars into it, I say.

CaptainRAVE
09-24-2001, 07:31 PM
I thought it was very good. Sometimes you had to use force speed to get to a door quickly which took some skill. If they slowed everything down then you could just walk along at your own pace which would take no skill.

Kurgan
09-24-2001, 07:51 PM
but it gives away your position.

I think that's the point.. but at least you can get away fast! ; )

The sounds of the force powers served to help balance it, because you knew when somebody using X power was getting close. So you could use stealth, or sacrifice it to use a power, etc. I enjoyed the strategy.

Kurgan

Moses
09-24-2001, 09:31 PM
You know, that sound IS annoying, and even if it is still in the game, I hope other players can not hear it, just you. I mean, true it gives off your position, which running around at incredible speed should, but maybe that could be done by footstep sounds instead. When in the movie did you hear "SSSSSSSSSSSS" when Obi-Wan was running? I also think this should be done for force seeing, jump, etc. The sounds may be useful to you by letting you know it is still on, but I don't feel it's necessary for opponents to hear it too.

Speaking of force speed by the way, if you want an example of it in the movies, right after Obi and Qui-Gon start fighting the first destroyer droids and Qui-Gon says "It's a standoff" or something of the sort, they bolt down the hallway with INCREDIBLE speed. In fact, the destroyer droid shoots a laser and by the time it gets there Qui-Gon isn't anymore.

And yeah, I like the idea of speeding up all your actions (blocks, attacks, parries, etc) along with your physical movement.

Syndrix
09-24-2001, 10:50 PM
I hardly think the sounds the force powers made added "strategy" to thier usage, and while they were intended as a counter balance,they wern't needed. The force powers where the sounds mattered (speed, persuasion) wern't strong enough to warrant balancing. Both had easy counters.

As for:
I think that it gives the user less control over Kyle and his powers.

How? I commented on that because is JK/MotS when you activated speed it was for a set period of time and drained a set amount of mana. With that suggestion it allows not only the user to control the time he runs for, but also if it subtracts mana while speed is "on" then you can control your mana easier in case you need to save some. I see how that gives less control.

Moses
09-25-2001, 02:16 AM
It just seems to me that as a Jedi, you shouldn't be limited to a 15 second burst of speed or a 20 second use of persuasion. Who remembers sense, alter, CONTROL. (ME! :D) A Jedi is able to control how long he sustains a burst of speed or how long he affects the minds of others to allow him to get by unnoticed. Likewise, we should be able to control Kyle's force powers. As someone said a while ago, the Force is not black and white. There is not a set amount of things you can do with the Force. There should be a way to activate speed (or any other time based force power) for shorter or longer than 15 seconds.

toms
09-25-2001, 08:40 AM
i actually quite liked the idea of the "slowing down" force speed in single player (i am getting fed up of the term bullet time though!) it worked well in Requiem, as it was cool to dodge slow moving projectiles etc... however i won't be too miffed if it isn't in there.

Force speed in JK did seem a bit too much..since the running speed was fast anyway. It made it very hard to use some weapons with my slow modem. Toggling it seems a much better idea, possibly even with you having to slow to a walk for a few seconds after using it for a long time.. might stop the game degenerating into people running and bouncing around like headless chickens on speed... ;-)

Red_XIIII
09-26-2001, 10:18 PM
Force Speed+ Force Push+ WALL= Dead
if there close enough anyway, insanely effective if u pusem into a corner, dunno how mots calculates that but u F push jus about anythin into a corner they=dead

Kurt Plummer
09-27-2001, 03:04 AM
Hey Ho,

Forgive this fairly hefty first post but I've been thinking about this for a longish while and I think I've got some ideas that deserve a discussion of merit.

***FORCE SPEED***

1. WHAT DOES IT /MEAN/?
IMO, when you use force speed it is to do one of two things. Either to enter/exit a fight _very rapidly_ ('getting out of a bad situation') or to move across large areas of open LOS space with minimum exposure to fire or possibly even 'as their backs are turned' without detection at all.

2. HOW DOES IT /WORK/?
IMO, non combat (i.e. saber swing, trigger pull etc.) 'speed' is less of an acceleration of footsteps than it is an accordian like compression-spring effect of the _distance_ travelled, per increment (stride), of motion.

It is also less a singular function of 2D 'running' motion than simply a 'wishing I was _there_' kind of translation in any axis you chose.

Look at Luke popping up out of the carbonite well. Not a jump because there is no real flex (his body is completely straight even as he clears the rim) and he continues to /accelerate/ as he goes up.

Look at Luke moving up to the overhead walkway of the Emperors Chamber in ROTJ. Not as fast (presumeably because he has to change vectors of motion) but still there is NO way he is going to enhanced-muscle-twitch going to make that kind of a move without some added 'Force' of motion.

Lastly, look at Quigon and Obiwan. Do you see them scrunch down for a 'long jump' OR make 'many small steps' when they leave the area around the command center blast door as the Destroyers roll up?

NO.

By comparison and again, IMO, the 'Force Speed' looks dorky like one of those cartoons where the character is caught on a treadmill or gerbil wheel with something chasing him and he has to keep going faster to just stay in place.

So _fix it_.

3. THE ALTERNATIVE: INTEGRATED MOTION.
If TRUE speed is not how many steps your feet make but how few /strides/ they take in getting to any given destination, then the ability to 'move fast' is the ability to warp space or at least push/pull accelerate the inertial effects through it, in longer hops of faster-than-eye translation.

With this in mind, I would like to see a single key, near the movement keys (TAB or ~ come to mind), that is the equivalent to 'E' for enter/exit fight and which allows you to either automatically or by _designator_ (flashing available areas) move to a place either horizontally or vertically displaced from your current position, SNAP! like that.

A further key (togglable) key could be used for 'contiguous/continuous motion' whereby you again designate a point of distance or obstacle (doors, walls, etc.) as much as axis of travel and then as long as you hold down the key, MOVE with similar leopard-lunge like grace in fewer and fewer total hops as your LEVEL (Jedi Rank) experience grows.

Where presumeably 'normal people' (non Force users) lead-fire upon targets by periods between of strided motion and boundaries of total distance available prediction, the traditional 'fast jog' animation of the DFII is not viable because you are still taking-steps and they can see the length and interval of those steps to judge your timing.

Also, the _relative speed_ you are doing so at is fully catchable with autofire weapons.

BUT, if you can more or less blur-translate between /random/ intervals of 'gotta touch down now' placement, then the enemy can ONLY catch you at these recompress-the-spring periods. And a Master Jedi, be he a 4ft nothin' of a 400year old Yoda, is going to move across that same distance in a SINGLE stride because his MIND can envelope the total space of travel distance involved.

Thus being less likely to be hit by missile/DE weapons (allowing stormtroopers to be far more base-accurate) and more able to prepare for another round of saber strokes vs. another Jedi.

If there is an interest, in a separate post, I'll deal with what I think needs to be improved in 'combat mode' saber work.


Thanks for Your Time- Kurt Plummer