View Full Version : Fighting Stances
09-27-2001, 03:39 AM
I know it is still early, but from the screens we have it seems as if Kyle has the same fighting stance as the dark Jedi.
I know it's a small detail but don't you think most Jedi would have different fighting stances? Then that leads to the possibility of different fighting styles and moves.
I wonder if Raven has anything like this planned. It would be cool to choose between a few stances or styles (something tells me Raven will include the notorious double saber).
Again, it's a small detail, but it depends on how you look at it. It could add great depth to the saber duels.
09-27-2001, 05:19 AM
That's a very interesting suggestion. I liiiiike it. Might be one of those things we only get for a mod, though...
09-27-2001, 10:04 AM
Perhaps each MP character will have a predefined stance for when they aren't doing much, or what would be even better..... is when we are setting up our characters, we can choose preset stance animations or positions for our characters..... say.... out of maybe 10? Just to add a bit of variety to pre-fight confrontations. It may not be the most essential part of the game, but I'm sure a lot of you agree, the way in which you stand with your saber adds a little flavour to the game.
What I always found rather amusing was that in Jediknight, if you let your character stand there for too long with the saber, they seemed to begin to scratch themselves with it, like their shoulder and their neck. It just seemed rather amusing :)
09-27-2001, 05:45 PM
Good idea Gonk!
I'm all up for different fighting stances! That will rock!
Each character should move individually as well. I mean different animations for different skins. Different characters should walk, run and jump a little differnt from eachother. I think games are finally reaching a stage where this kind of thing can be done. Kyle isn't gonna have the same walking/running style as JAn Ors for example. Sure the animators can be lazy and chuck the same action animations for every character..but thats crap!
It's getting boring ! When is a game company gonna jump out from the pack and do something like that!
[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Darth Lunatic ]
All of which leads us nicely back to the old thread about some elemts of martial arts being included in the game.
I would like to see all of this (martial arts/fighting stances/different movements for different skins) included, and have my fingers crossed 24/7 that Raven will have different martial arts techniques for each character/type of character.
For example, Kyle might be a hybrid of Jedi/mercenary i.e. tranied in saber fighting, back alley style brawls, and martial arts, and mostly opt for stunning/knocking out over killing.
Jan Ors might be a more graceful fighter, but have less power, and therefore not be as proficient a fighter as Kyle.
Dark Jedi would be much the same as Kyle, except have more expertise in death-inducing blows.
Pilots that you would encounter should only have the barest of training, more suited to blaster fighting or space battles.
Officers and security guards would be a cross between Kyle, Dark Jedi and pilots, but not outstanding in any of the styles.
Properly trained Jedi should be very, very proficient in almost all imaginable styles of fighting, but rely more on the use of the Force. Trainee Jedi would be less Force-reliant, and possibly a little over-zealous.
This is a lot to ask, and I expect maybe a quarter of it to actually be incorporated into the game, but I can dream, can't I?
09-28-2001, 06:58 AM
Come to think of it, even in original JK many of the Dark Jedi had different fighting styles. Yun's stance and swings were different from what Kyle or Jerec used, and it goes without saying that Boc had a different approach. :)
09-28-2001, 11:11 AM
As did Maw...
09-28-2001, 03:16 PM
maw doesnt count :) he only had a half a stance
09-28-2001, 07:16 PM
Saber dueling in JK was so shallow, the fighting stances and styles were BARELY different.
09-28-2001, 11:09 PM
Yeah, well, I don't expect too much improvement in that regard. Ask much, expect little, and thus never be disappointed. Heh. :)
Anyway, what I was doing was establishing precedent for the idea, not saying "JK did it well enough"... :p
[ September 28, 2001: Message edited by: Denise ]
09-28-2001, 11:49 PM
Over on the Millenium Falcon technical page there is a short discourse on Sabre Fighting and I think it mentions that Vader fought from one opening stance (Hahn? Can't find the dang page!:``( that was lateral with the blade up close to his paulette because of the limits of his armor and his injured shoulders.
Another method was behind the back to hide the 'intent' of the first blow and prevent the blade from being trapped and a third, which was more chi/style showoff depedent was 'high over head'.
Apparently, as the reduction of horse and armored battle continued through the 18th/19th centuries and weapons like the Dai Katana also went the way of the dino, fighting became so very fast that there was really only one efficient form of stance and that was basically as you see it: Blade forward at an angle to keep from being batted away or pushed back and covering as much as possible of the body.
To be honest, the robes and carriage style of the sabre (usually through a hook) which we 'inherited' from EP.4 and never really improved upon in later movies inhibit a lot of what I would assume to be the basics of Kendo and especially Iado in a Star Wars universe, your blade first, their bolt second, hide the legs but don't bind the shoulders with useless (ugly) hoods and robes.
Given a choice, I would never use a 'staff' saber if only because it is /massively/ inefficient for what it forces you to predictive-shoulder-hunch do to push the weapon into guard while keeping your own own legs clear.
Even as it denies the ability to move to quarter-length thrusting or swinging positions.
Almost laughable in the way you see it 'swishing' around Maul's legs (watch close and you'll /know/ he caught his own clothing at least once) and moving side to side without really pushing the cutting ends forward to force Obi Wan off his centered position.
Spin Swings are SO predictable!
What use a weapon with twice the length when you can't USE it? Accept from the middle moving the ends less than 2ft each side?
Half the movie theatre was looking at me funny as I was yelling at Obi Wan/Quigon to strike at his center from the opening moment!
Darth Maul would have been much more impressive fighting with TWO blades, not like
Boc but rather like Tonfa or Tsai or even Dirk+Rapier users in say the _original_ 3&4 Musketeers movies.
The sabre would be very adept for this because presumably that big, 'solid' blade has a lot of drag factor but _NO MASS_ which means that there will never be what could be termed inertia magnification of blade impacts and so no option to break blades or really to push them back into their user except by virtue of what the muscles applied.
Shorter Blade=Knife Fight Speed from Open Arcs.
This leaves LOTS of opportunities to use 'sliding' tactics, up and down the length of the blades with blade index twists, close up, to drive a shorter weapon in deep or burning along the weapon arm.
It also makes sense for a short+long or short +short to use repetitive batting tactics to move the battle dynamically and then a long lunge or close up for a vertical head tap/gut stab.
Where it was clear that Boc was 'trying hard' just to keep his blades clear of themselves and did a lot of stupid things in-process (crossed blades and both tips down for instance) you can still cover your center with SHORT weapons while simply moving their respective sweep paths away from each other, vertically or on the diagonal, to keep them free for independent strokes.
Static Kendo is pretty 'vanilla' for stances because it has been refined to such an extent that everything is in the basic opening movement and raw force of what is a fairly hefty blade.
There ain't a lot of 'fancy' options against another good player with an equivalent weapon, if you want to win (admittedly battle will change a lot of the encounter rules for geometry and swing directions...).
If you want to go to bizarre opening stances try Tai Chi Chen lion/dragon swords or allow secondary weapons to move out the attack axis so that you are guarding against multiple directions.
A Tonfa style (modern cop nightstick) handle with an extended (exotic metal presumably) back plate along the active 'blade' could useful because you can deflect, sidearm or thrust (springloaded metal) forearm and bat either direction while pushing yourself into the other users inner space.
A cheese-slicer style dirk with TWO blades, at an |/ or \/ angle, could be used to trap the enemy sabre and even, (with a push button close-vee) bring one side back to a nominally longer total blade to punch into flesh from beyond-guard.
Heck, come up with a weighted wrist 'fencing cloak' and force or projectile toss it (snicker, missile air bags...;-) at the goober, stabbing thru or moving around while he starts a fire cutting apart the potentially explosive vision blocker.
It may sound bizarre but devices similar to all these things were made and _worked_ in the French and Spanish fencing schools and aside from the 'poetry of motion' (spin-hop- somersault-kick acrobatic worthlessness to your average heavy caucasian male) were much more efficient, tactically, for what I think you would find to be the sabres primary fighting style.
Faster, with less weight of impact required and so more _forward_ from center or sides rather than slashing from side thru middle or top to bottom.
09-29-2001, 03:53 PM
Questioner:I believe you said that you developed twelve positions for the Jedi fighting style. Traditional theatrical combat has eight. What are the other four?
Nick Gillard: The extra four positions in "Jedi" style fighting are d7th, d8th, v3rd and h3rd. However, during Episode II, I had to add two more. These are h1st and dv7.
To create fight choreography that would demonstrate not just Jedi swordsmanship but also the individual characters of the fighters, Nick studied the Episode I script and storyboards carefully. No two sword masters have exactly the same style, and Nick has woven the subtleties of distinct identities into the choreography of the lightsaber battles. "It was important to me that each character in Episode I have a distinctive fighting style," he says. Some of this shading came from the classic Star Wars Trilogy. For Obi-Wan, he took into account the lightsaber fighting style used in the original trilogy because Obi-Wan Kenobi trained both Anakin and Luke Skywalker. Some of their methods should be reflected in the style we see Kenobi use as a younger man, he says.
10-02-2001, 09:20 PM
For all the hype before JK was released about the saber fighting ability, I found the saber fights very laughable. A bunch of characters trying to run circles around each other. :rolleyes:
I love games that are able to depict fluid martial art styles in them combined w/ natural controls.
Let's hope that the programmers try much harder this time around.
10-02-2001, 09:42 PM
Well, you've got to keep in mind how dated the game really is. Those that do better with melee combat are all newer, most by two or three years. It'll be interesting to see if JK2 remains competitive. :)
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