PDA

View Full Version : Rocket Packs


Bartolo_JCS
10-29-2001, 01:01 AM
In JK I believe a manowar conversion consisted of rocket packs and also Shadows of the Empire had a rocket pack in a few levels for the 3d perspective gaming on the N64.

Will we see rocket packs in JK2?...

acdcfanbill
10-29-2001, 03:25 AM
if in the original game, only on, say a bounty hunter class for multi, a jedi have no need for a jetpack... if not, i am willing to bet that there will be a mod made for it...

Kurgan
10-29-2001, 05:34 AM
As a device for SP, this would be an excellent idea. Also would be great for a mod or mutator (Jet pack arena!).

I would love to see this. I didn't get to play much manowar since it was harder than heck to get enough people for a team game (almost always ended up one on one) back when I was trying to play it. But it was tons of fun to just play around with the grapple and jetpack and see all the hijinks that would ensue with them (especially two players grappling onto each other and jumping around, etc).

As far as a class in MP that had the jetpack, that could introduce some balancing issues. I am guessing Tribes/2 might have addressed this type of thing already. I can see it working like as a pickup that anyone could use, but I dunno about a single class (especially a powerful one like the BH) getting exclusive use of the JP. But I'm not the one who'd have to work out the balancing... perhaps it could be done well, and in that case, I'd love to see something like it.

Similarly, I don't think there is any reason why a Jedi would NOT ever need to use one. It might make perfect sense. I mean in theory a Jedi could make great use of a blaster as well, we just don't see it in the movies, because they're all these honorable guys following traditional rules of their own chivalric code. Games should have more leeway and creativity I think. Explore the road less travelled...

But, I always thought that a Jedi could basically make himself "fly" around with his levitating powers. I mean why not... you can use it to lift star fighters, droids, big hunks of metal and other people, why not your own body? That I'd also like to see (as an option... some people might not like it, as some might not like the jetpack idea either).

Kurgan

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]

StormHammer
10-29-2001, 11:07 AM
I don't know about rocket packs, but I like the idea of levitation.

If it was implemented in the game, though, I suppose it would have to rely on how much Force power you have available. I would imagine something like levitation draining your Force pool fairly quickly - and you may be hanging over a chasm or something when it runs out. Ouch.

I would also think it would be along the lines of Force Grip in JK...where it needs concentration, and if you are hit by blaster fire, that power switches off. So you would have to be careful when and where you used it, which would help with balancing it's usefulness.

Kurgan
10-29-2001, 05:39 PM
Maybe it could be used as a sort of enhancement to Force Jump. Like you could jump super high and then "hang" in the air for a short time, and have full air control.

I don't see how a powerful Jedi couldn't have the outright power of flight (like Superman), I'm just questionining whether or not it could be done in such a way as to be both cool and balanced for MP. I guess if Jedi could fly (with limited mana?) and everybody else could use rocket packs (with limited fuel?), and the host could choose to disable both together if they didn't want people flying around, then it would work out.

Would certainly be interesting... a way to travel long distances in big levels, spy on people, and snipe from the air, etc. Falling and dying would be a nice hazard to counter balance the benefits of the power/device.

Force Far Sight (in MotS) had sort of a levitation ability (not sure if it was just a bug or what, but I liked it) where you could activate the power while in mid-air and it would pause you for a split second (resetting your falling distance), and thus allowing you to soften a long fall that might otherwise have seriously hurt/killed you (useless against bottomless pits, of course). And this only used mana at the point of activation.

I just wonder if in MP you will get to choose your powers, or if everyone will just have the same powers (that might go up in strength with the level, ie: on level 8 everyone has super force, but the same powers as level 1). Hmmm...

Kurgan

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]

wardz
10-29-2001, 06:41 PM
I've just read the PCG UK article dedicated to JK2 and it was quite interesting. I dont have it here at home tho. I think the force powers will be chosen for you but you "earn" them as such, the further you go the more you learn until you get to lightning.

They also said that is why he has been shunned because after MOTS, "his fellow jedi were not pleased at him mastering dark side powers"

or along those lines. Tomorrow I will get the article and tell it in greater detail for those who haven't read it... If you have then perhaps you coud tell us more now?

wardz

Lord_FinnSon
10-30-2001, 10:15 PM
Well, Jedis DO levitate time to time, but not long distances. Obi-Wan's jump in the end of Episode 1(before he slices Maul) looked more like he would have levitated and Vader does the same thing once in ESB(he "jumps" down the stairs, "flying right at" Luke like the original script says). Both of these guys were however fully trained, while Kyle still seems to be searching his "place" and walks the middle way between light and dark in JK2. Besides, I don't like the idea of flying Jedis THAT much... ;) Oh, and the quickest way to get a little air ride in the game might be shooting down that possible Boba Fett-wannabe and use his Rocket Pack.

[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: Lord_FinnSon ]

SlowbieOne
10-30-2001, 11:21 PM
Well we know for a fact Jedi can fly.

One word: MAW

He had no legs, but he didn't have wings or a rocket pack.

Use the Force MAW! :)

I don't see a problem with Jedi flying. After all, the Force is all around us, why can't we use it to guide us?

Think of it this way, using the Force Yoda can lift a X-Wing out of a swamp and place it down safely. He should easily be able to lift himself up and guide himself wherever he wants. He is an object nonetheless.

[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: SlowbieOne ]

Bartolo_JCS
10-31-2001, 01:03 AM
uh, maw didn't fly with the force he had a machine attached to his hip

SlowbieOne
10-31-2001, 04:02 AM
Doesn't look like it. How do you know this?

acdcfanbill
10-31-2001, 04:22 AM
i, too, think he had some sort of repulsor attached to him, thats the way it looked, i dunno where i could find any info on this though... anybody else have and idea??

SlowbieOne
10-31-2001, 04:46 AM
Yes he has something underneath his torso but it looks far from a propeller. I have always thought of it as a cap to cover the bottom of his torso.

If there is no solid information on this, it's just a matter of one's opinon.

StormHammer
10-31-2001, 01:40 PM
This should clear up the debate...this is what it says in the manual that came with JK...

Jedi Knight Manual:
Maw

Only a profound anger and the dark side of the Force have enabled a creature like Maw to live. He was cut in half by Rahn, and what was left is a heavily-muscled levitating incarnation of rage. Etc...

So there you go. Maw officially levitates. Nuff said. ;)

techsurfer
10-31-2001, 04:39 PM
I just hope your legs don't move when you levitate cos that would look rubbish. I think jedi levitation should be degenerative so as your mana decreases your altitude does as well so you slowly start to float down until it runs out and you fall. Also, you should be able to do vertical spins with your lightsaber when its enabled. Then you could barrel roll at enemies and slice them to bits!

Bartolo_JCS
10-31-2001, 08:08 PM
we know he levitates, the question is how

Agen
10-31-2001, 08:58 PM
The fact is that maw was a shabby cration because he has invisible legs. :-) pitch Black in JK is see through and if u change the colour in his legs he walks and it basiclly looks like he's on fly mode. :( the fact is GL and lec think of cool characters and don't really have a reason for them so if i were them i wold make something up like he levitates because of the force strengh he has and the thing at the bottom of him keeps him up to good rates so i think they'd say some crap like there's force boosts at the bottom or they probably will never answer so there for we can make out own opinion!
:D :) ;) :cool: :p

Denise
10-31-2001, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer:
<STRONG>So there you go. Maw officially levitates. Nuff said. ;)</STRONG>

Repulsorlifts "officially levitate", too, and they do so so efficiently that Luke's landspeeder continues to hover even when shut off. We're at an impasse. ;)

Aside from potential balance factors, there's the inherent cheesiness factor of people flying around at will, whether via force powers or rocket packs. Personally I always envisioned the rockets on the Mandalorian armor to be short-burst affairs (indeed, Boba Fett uses his exactly so in ROTJ) that would run out of juice rapidly and then need time to "recharge". Implemented thusly, they'd be a slightly less-capable "force jump" for non Force-sensitives --not a ticket to play Rocketeer or Superman. :)

StormHammer
10-31-2001, 11:07 PM
Hmmm...maybe.

However, according to the dictionary definition...

Collins Paperback Dictionary

Levitate

vb. to rise or cause to rise and float in the air, usually by using supernatural powers.

So, it says usually...but not exclusively. However, I'd opt for the usual meaning. (But then I would, wouldn't I? :D)

*sits back as debate rages on*

SlowbieOne
10-31-2001, 11:59 PM
Thanks for clearing that up Stormhammer, I don't know why I didn't check the manual.

I think they would have said "flies" instead of "levitate" if he had a machine.

Another example along the lines of what Stormie said: When you hear the word levitate, what do you think of?

You think of a "living being" lifting himself off the ground using special powers.

You don't say, "The plane is levitating."

You say, "The plane is flying."

Good enough for me.

Anyway, who cares, he's dead. :)

StormHammer
11-01-2001, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by SlowbieOne:
Anyway, who cares, he's dead. :)

LOL :D

That's the spirit. :)

Bartolo_JCS
11-01-2001, 12:50 AM
Jedi Knight Manual:
Maw
Only a profound anger and the dark side of the Force have enabled a creature like Maw to live. He was cut in half by Rahn, and what was left is a heavily-muscled levitating incarnation of rage. Etc...

when you hit maw a few times in singleplayer he then levitates/flies to the other side and you chase him. He's not levitating while you fight him because if he was and you pushed him off he would fall no? Similar to darth maul's speeder. Let's say you have force push or a force push cog he would definately fall.... So we're both right. He does fly with force but he also has a repulsor lift to walk. If he flew/levitated all day he would get tired of using the force.
:p

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Bart-=[JCS]=- ]

Kurgan
11-01-2001, 01:35 AM
Well, maybe he just adjusted his force flow to compensate for the distance. ; )

Anyway, if he was using a repulsor, it would just allow him to float, he could still use the force to manuver and adjust height, etc.

Though you'll notice he "falls to the ground" when defeated. If he had a repulsor it would still keep him floating upright after he was beaten. Though you could just say it was "damaged" when you hit him with the final blow or something.

But I got the impression that he WAS using the force to make himself hover and fly. Watch the cutscenes and play the level again. I don't think it's out of place at all.

I don't find the idea of him using it all day that tough. I mean he could just be really powerful. But you balance that with the fact that he has to concentrate on doing this ability (which may not require that much mana to begin with) while fighting and using other powers, so he is not as powerful as he COULD be if he had legs and could use that extra force for something else. Just a thought...

Btw, anybody see that program on "Levitation" they had awhile back on either Discovery or History channel? It had the mystical stuff (Mirabelli, flying saints, Indian Rope Trick, psychic fliers, Maharishi U and John Haglin) and scientific stuff (bullet trains, vomit comet, levitation machines, etc). Fun show.

Right now if you want to levitate, it's far easier to levitate a tree frog or a multi-ton train than to levitate a human. You could levitate a human using the levitation machine (sorry I forget the name, it's the one they drop tiny objects into and watch them float in a sphere of empty space), but it would cost more than hitching a ride on the next flight into space.

Kurgan

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]

Denise
11-01-2001, 08:44 AM
The thing that gets me is this: if self-levitation is so all-fired easy for a Jedi, why don't we see it used? One would think it would be tactically advanageous to whirr about beyond a lightsaber's reach (one would think Maw would have done that to begin with rather than let Rahn cut him down). Or perhaps you would halt your fall as you plummet into the Death Star's power core, if you could. **clears throat pointedly** :)

And if it isn't an easy thing, just why is Maw one of Jerec's cronies instead of the one calling the shots? Eh? :D

Kurgan
11-01-2001, 12:41 PM
Hmmf. That's like asking "why didn't Palpy just squarsh everyone's head?"

Because that wouldn't make a very interesting or long storyline!

But in a game setting, that would be perfectly acceptable...

Kurgan

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]

acdcfanbill
11-01-2001, 01:52 PM
well, just because maul's speeder fell off the canyon, and lukes speeder was always a certian height, doesnt mean that Maw's repulsor (go with me here a second) has to be a certian (short) distance from solid ground to keep him up... every small ship (im talking, Millennium Falcon, X-Wing, and other craft which land) has repulsors, and they fly straight, no matter what the terrain does below them... when they are flying low, the manuver to avoid obsticles, but when flying high, they fly straight as an arrow, with repulsors... so it is possible that maw could have something of the same aparatus underneth him...

Agen
11-01-2001, 06:14 PM
Next time i want a debate i'll come here or in other words an agument :D

Denise
11-01-2001, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan:
<STRONG>Hmmf. That's like asking "why didn't Palpy just squarsh everyone's head?"

Because that wouldn't make a very interesting or long storyline!

But in a game setting, that would be perfectly acceptable...</STRONG>

No, Kurgan, my point is that in my opinion it wouldn't be acceptable. Suspension of disbelief is difficult enough when your character has the normal range of Jedi abilities. Lumping the power of flight in with the rest is just too much. As I said before, the cheesiness factor just goes way too high with this one.

And it shatters the atmosphere. Imagine, if you will, trying to conduct (or even control) a lightsaber duel wherein both parties are able to fly. Oooh, what fun, and so accurate to the movies, too. ;)

Kurgan
11-01-2001, 11:31 PM
Well why are so many people talking about bullet time and all that crap? Maybe from one angle it might not be "fun" but from another it could be made to work.

I think it's probably more feasible to implement jedi "flying" into multiplayer than bullet time for example (slow motion that slows everything but the user).

Yes, you would have to do certain things to make it so that it wasn't impossible to hit your opponent (like special mid-air attacks, etc). There would certainly be issues to deal with, but I don't think it's impossible.

Like I said before, if we restrict ourselves simply to what we know and refuse to go forward, then we're just limiting the potential for the game. I say break new ground, doesn't have to be this, but do something cool.

In the EU we have all kinds of ridiculous stuff done with the force (ridiculous, if you assume that the stuff in the movies is all that could possibly come from the most powerful of jedi/sith). In a game setting, I think even more leeway and liscense is given to stretch the "believability." How many games do we have where a normal human has multiple lives or can take far more damage than a person ever could in real life?

How often do we have all sorts of unrealism (I could rattle of a list, but I don't want to waste the time). Star Wars, if anything, has a bigger blank check for fantasy elements than any other franchise out there. Heck, a lot of, might I say "crappy" stuff has been introduced that lots of fans have hated, but all of it has become "canon" (including stuff done by George himself, need I mention Midichlorians? or Anakin being concieved without a father?).

So I would think in a game setting this would not be out of the question. Again, it might be tough to do, it might be better suited as a mod or option. But I think if we can get away with the other stuff, why not levitation ability?

Kurgan

SlowbieOne
11-02-2001, 04:42 AM
The fly cheat in JK was a little weak with the momentum.

If they rid the momentum, and made it easier to manuever I think it could definatley have a place.

If they have personalities in JO, Jedi can use Force Levitate and all non-Jedi could have jetpacks, so it would be equal.

[ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: SlowbieOne ]

Denise
11-02-2001, 04:44 AM
I think you've misunderstood my position a bit. I don't object to "anything new"... just flight (and bullet time, for that matter). Just the cheesy gimmicks that people want added purely because they think they'd be "k3wl", where they haven't even stopped to consider the effects on gameplay. The things that would get old very fast, novelty items that we'd be stuck with throughout the game's lifetime.

Much better off as a mod, yes. That way the people to whom it appeals can play it, the rest of us won't have to put up with it, and development time/resources won't be wasted on it.

Bartolo_JCS
11-02-2001, 05:00 AM
I agree with Denise.

StormHammer
11-02-2001, 12:07 PM
Just to clarify my own position a bit...the way I view levitation is really along the lines of the movies, like when Luke raises the boulders and C3PO, Yoda lifts the ship, etc.

These feats were accomplished comparatively slowly, and for a purpose. I don't see why you can't apply the same forces to your own body, to enable you to cross a chasm (using a combination of levitate and push) or get up to a ledge that is too far to jump (using levitate). The cost in Force mana should be heavy and continuous whilst levitating - so you have to be extra careful that you don't run out of Force power, or suffer the consequences.

As I said in my previous post, a levitation power should demand the utmost concentration (similar to what is reported in real life, where you have to meditate to levitate). Therefore, I don't think you should have the ability to saber-fight while levitating - one hit and you lose your concentration, and fall to the ground. In a similar way, if you get hit with blaster fire, you should be distracted, and fall down - or maybe be able to absorb one or two blasts before you fall.

So it's usefulness is balanced with risk. I don't see how that could be considered cheesy, if it is actually useful in certain circumstances.

I am a bit dubious about actually flying Superman style, though. ;)

As for rocket packs...yes, okay, if used in short bursts. It would certainly enable non-force users to keep up with a Force Jumping Jedi. :)

cossack1812
11-04-2001, 01:45 AM
No flying. Period
Its cheesy and wouldnt really be fun, just tedious
Denise is right, a mod, but not in the real game

StephenG
11-04-2001, 02:01 AM
Rocket packs would be cool in muitlplayer. if there was a class system like MotS. Jedi have sabers and bountyhunters have rocket packs.

$10BOOMBOOM
11-04-2001, 12:25 PM
All this flying stuff just isnt related to any star wars film. " breaking new boundaries" NO! NO! NO! it would be prime cheddar it would be so cheesy. Just picture it...... ** 2 jedis are having a duel on cloud city gantry...they are hacking and blocking, showing controlled strikes making this duel particularly epic.....its been raging for a good 15-20 mins...but whats that?? is it a bird? is it a plane? No, its 2 muppets having their own duel 40 foot above the gantry, flying around doing their attack runs more accustomed to Xwing. The 2 jedis look up and state to each other " isnt this an atmosphereic." They disengage thier sabers, clip them to their belts and go off dragging thier feet in search of another battle ground.** Anyone who likes playing with light sabers on the net ( I spit on those people who insist on using blasters) always want to have long duels with dollops of tension. It is like the RPG games some people play where they actually assign roles to each person in the game to reinact. All this flying business will be completely out of sink.
" COME DOWN HERE SO I CAN FINISH U OFF!!!!"
"NO, I DONT LIKE U ANYMORE"
"FOR GODS SAKE MAN, UR GONNA HAVE TO COME DOWN SOME TIME"
"I DONT CARE, I WILL ONLY COME DOWN IF U LEAVE ME ALONE"

and it continues.........

NO FLYING!!! it would be bloody stupid, and for those with that particular fetish, just make a mod. END OF STORY .

SlowbieOne
11-04-2001, 03:22 PM
I'm sorry but I don't know why everyone thinks that if something didn't happen in one of the movies, it's not possible in the Star Wars universe.

You do know that the movies only shows us fragments of the universe don't you?

Besides, what's the big deal if you can just not use Force Levitate if you don't like it.

Thats what JK was based on, lots of options.

I was playing Star Trek Elite Force Holomatch and came across something I've never seen. In the Hanger level, there is a powerup called the Anti-Grav Pack. I couldn't believe how good the control was. There was no momentum, so you could move any direction quickly, but at the same time, the movements were not jittery. It was almost flawless in my opinion.

I could actually picture saber duels in the air... :)

For those of you who have this game, go try it out and let me know what you think.

For those of you who don't I recommend getting it for a possible taste of what to expect for JO.

I've had the game for over a year now and never really tried the MP only the SP, and I'm twice as excited about JK2 now. :D

[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: SlowbieOne ]

SlowbieOne
11-05-2001, 07:18 PM
Also in EF MP, there is a powerup called the Temporal Accelerator. With this powerup, I say you travel at about the speed of in between 1-2 stars in JK. The frames per second were still great and it felt like I could move more than twice as fast without losing fps.

I can really see Force Speed working well in JO.

Denise
11-06-2001, 02:09 AM
I'm sorry but I don't know why everyone thinks that if something didn't happen in one of the movies, it's not possible in the Star Wars universe.

You do know that the movies only shows us fragments of the universe don't you?

It's not that I don't think it's possible, it's that I most vehemently don't want to see it implemented. I think it's cheesy, corny, an atmosphere stealer bar none, and it would utterly ruin the game's feel for me.

Besides, what's the big deal if you can just not use Force Levitate if you don't like it.

Which is all well and good if you're playing by your lonesome, but the multiplayer scene is not so cooperative. :)

Edit: Ever make a post and find out that you didn't close a tag, but only after the fact? Irksome. :)

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: Denise ]

Azer Nik
11-06-2001, 02:55 PM
Anybody here go see "The One"? excellent use of timewarping stunts/effects. And I think susch things could be done well in games like JK2 but you would have to be careful how you implemented them, it all comes back to the question about ForceSpeed/Bullet Time it would seem so why not have universal slowmotion like in the "lazy matrix" mod for UT, which in my opinion worked well. As for Levitation and Rocketing packs in JK2, bring it on!

Kurgan
11-06-2001, 03:59 PM
That reminds me, and I haven't played EF, but I know that Quake3 (base engine) had both a flight (levitation) powerup and a speedup powerup (haste).

So perhaps EF just took those, or maybe it modified them. Haste sounds about right, the levitation I only used a few times, but it basically allowed you to float around and the control was pretty good (both are time limited).

Also, just like with the Quad Damage, if you kill the person carrying one of them, they drop it, and whatever time is left on it can be used by others. Not sure if that was the way it was in EF...

I could see that working with a rocket pack type deal. The force thing would be different though. Or the rocket pack could recharge itself over time (like in the manowars mods for JK/MotS). Lots of possibilities...

I think the power of flight is very advantagous, so either it should be available to everybody if it is used (as a mod or as the default). Probably as a mod/mutator/mode since it would drastically change the gameplay once people got used to it. If it were just a temporary powerup (jetpack that could be used by all, or some kind of jedi artifact that gives the ability to fly, though that might be too hokey for some people), it would work much like Q3 or perhaps like EF.

If it were a built in ability (ie: non jedi start with jetpacks with limited fuel; jedi start with force levitation and limited mana) then it would be equal as well.

Kurgan

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]

Bartolo_JCS
11-07-2001, 05:15 PM
$10BOOMBOOM your thread is very enilightening and very well thought out.


Thank you for raging. :)

wardz
11-07-2001, 07:06 PM
I dont really want Flying in...

However, If they were then I would like it done like this.

If you're a non Jedi then have a Jetpack, but If you are a Jedi then have Force Jump. Easy : )

However, we have to think about the licensing people here, would they be too pleased to see Jedi flying? You can't just go altering the whole Jedi thing, If they were able to fly why haven't we seen them in ANY of the films?


wardz

SlowbieOne
11-07-2001, 09:52 PM
Well it seems like most of you don't like the flying idea.

With all of us wanting so many different things in this game, it will be hard for Raven to please everyone.

If flying isn't included, I won't lose any sleep over it. :)

With so many people gettig into the editing scene lately, a mod for flying is almost inevitable anyway.

Kurgan
11-07-2001, 10:58 PM
Well there's still a big difference between force jump and a jetpack.. check out manowars. ; )

I just figure that if flight can appear in Quake3 and not "ruin" the game, then why not here? Granted, I'm asking for more implementation, but it's a similar idea.

I've never heard of anyone complaining about it there...

Kurgan

Bartolo_JCS
11-08-2001, 03:46 PM
INDEED PEOPLE THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JUMP/FORCE JUMP AND LEVITATION.

I called someone a hipocrite on another thread for saying juming was cheesy yet he supports the levitation idea. He didn't understand why I called him a hipocrite.

JUMPING IS NOT CHEESY! FLYING IS!.....

Kurgan
11-08-2001, 05:31 PM
If you could fly, in theory you could snipe people from the air. You can't do that with force jump (except by pure luck or using splash damage).

That's one glaring difference.

Bartolo_JCS
11-11-2001, 06:20 AM
yes