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View Full Version : WEAPONS......again


StephenG
09-27-2001, 06:54 AM
I would like to see weapon fire increased sorta. In the second cut scene of Dark Force 2, you know the one were 8T88 is escaping on his shuttle you see Kyle shoot at him with his pistol. The time it takes the laser from Kyleís pistol to 8T88 is fast but in the game when you use the pistol it takes 3-5 seconds to reach the enemy. Anyway the point Iím trying to make is that the pistol fire is to slow, it should be the same speed as it was in the 2nd cut scene of Dark forces 2. Even the pistol fire in the movies reach the target quicker.

Wolf
09-27-2001, 07:11 AM
Yeah i agree i think ??

but realy the bryre pistol is crap
i dont know many ppl that ever use it and i for see the same for jedi K II
+ it realy anoys me when (in the cutsceens) kyle shoots at ppl like 8t88 with his bryre
when you have about a billion storm trooper rifles or even a cross bow

i mean bryer .....common whos he gonna hurt with that??

Sarcastic Saint
09-27-2001, 08:16 AM
Whats also weird/funny is in that same cutscene he gets shot by that Tie-bomber and he can still walk away!!!!
I mean even if he just got scraped then still should his arm been blown straight off.
Mmmm...very very strange.... :D

toms
09-27-2001, 11:58 AM
i quite liked the way they made the bryar useful in SP by making it prety acurate... i actually used it quite a lot in SP.

of course it probably isn't very sensible/realistic to make a pistol more acurate over long range than a rifle..but there you go.

it seems to me that pistols are always cooler weapons (see any john woo film, star wars, max payne etc...) but they are screwed in games because people will always go for the more powerful super guns.. even if in real life you couldn't awnderround with one of those without atracting major attention.

stunnedtodeath
10-02-2001, 09:04 PM
I feel kinda lame for posting this, but I would like to pick up and use two Bryar
Pistols. All the other weapons except grenades seem to be two-handed.
I know, probably watched too much of John Woo lately.

StormHammer
10-02-2001, 11:49 PM
I also agree about the speed of the blast from the Bryar pistol. I used it for accuracy over distances, but it sometimes took so long to reach the target that the target had moved a considerable distance.

What I would like to see changed with the Bryar is to have a secondary fire similar to the BlasTech DL-44 Pistol in MotS. If you held down secondary fire, you could charge that pistol up to a maximum of 4x the blast (4 shots), which was useful for taking enemies down with accuracy at a medium distance. Again, though, the blast moved too slowly for longer distances.

I hope they retain the diminishing damage over long distances, though. I think I'd prefer to have an accurate (and more damaging) rifle with a scope for distance shots.

As for the idea of two Bryar or other pistols, yeah, why not? I use duel Enforcers in UT, and you can get a fairly quick kill up close, with guns akimbo. :D Eats through ammo, though (as it should).

StephenG
10-03-2001, 12:39 AM
Yep, i also think use should beable to use duel bryar.

cossack1812
10-03-2001, 09:23 AM
Yeah, the speed of the pistol was too slow, even the storm trooper rifle's bolt was too slow.
The pistol was mainly incorperated in the first game to be a sp thing. And not mention the fact that the bryre is just plain poor anyway.
And what about the green bolt from the bowcaster? thats not what it looks like in ROTJ.
Not even a jedi would get up after being hit by a tie bomber......well maybe a jedi

stunnedtodeath
10-03-2001, 02:21 PM
Actually, that's not a bad thought, Cossack. Have Kyle run a path that's being bombed by Tie bombers. Either get that Force absorb up or run like hell.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled topic, Weapons... Again. Thank you.

SlowbieOne
10-03-2001, 05:24 PM
I agree ,please speed up the Bryar bolt for the love of all things holy! Much too slow in JK1.

I also like the idea of double bryars like the double enforcers in UT. It could possibly help balance the bryar against other more powerfull weapons. It worked weel in UT anyway.

acdcfanbill
10-04-2001, 02:44 AM
ive always said, one of my fav mods for mots was the dual blastec pistols, that was great!!! id defently like to see dual of them, rather than dual bryars, because kyle has the only bryar, doesnt he? ive never seen others, and i assumed (never assume, you make an... well, you know) that he had it specially made for himself, or something of that sort...

GonkH8er
10-04-2001, 05:26 AM
Duel weapons would be cool, but I doubt it would be bryar. Have you seen the size of that thing? :)

Duel sabers? No, we should have the lightstaff.

Duel Thermals? No, that'd be dumb :)

Duel Bowcaster? nah....

Duel anything else we've heard....... nah.

It'd have to be something we don't know about. I think there's 3 more weapons that are new that we haven't heard about. no, wait........ 2. We'll see.

Kurt Plummer
10-04-2001, 12:01 PM
Dual Bryars shaped like Robocops guns, you could rig an armbrace or something for the weight but as for the lightstaff, I'd really just as soon have two sabers (with adjustable length blades) if you don't mind.

And I still like the idea of an eyemonicle and firelink ala cyberpunk. Hold trigger, fire to limit of 'clip' with eyeblink or pupil dilation controlling firing impulses to the gun in either single or 3-round burst (what it typically takes me to put an imp down) feeds. I can't see a bounty hunter being without one, as much as they're luved.

As long as you make it clear that the pistol IS a pistol and has a limited ammo capacity, (so that you have to recharge or change batteries or whatever) the game balance would not be destroyed and you would have a monster weapon to use against those imps when you walk into a sudden-threat room.

And then there's sabre+gun...


Kurt Plummer

StephenG
10-04-2001, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Kurt:
<STRONG>Dual Bryars shaped like Robocops guns, you could rig an armbrace or something for the weight but as for the lightstaff, I'd really just as soon have two sabers (with adjustable length blades) if you don't mind.

And I still like the idea of an eyemonicle and firelink ala cyberpunk. Hold trigger, fire to limit of 'clip' with eyeblink or pupil dilation controlling firing impulses to the gun in either single or 3-round burst (what it typically takes me to put an imp down) feeds. I can't see a bounty hunter being without one, as much as they're luved.

As long as you make it clear that the pistol IS a pistol and has a limited ammo capacity, (so that you have to recharge or change batteries or whatever) the game balance would not be destroyed and you would have a monster weapon to use against those imps when you walk into a sudden-threat room.

And then there's sabre+gun...


Kurt Plummer</STRONG>

Kurt you bring up a good point about reloading. There has never been reloading in dark forces but i think there should. The guns models have clips on the side so why isn't there reloading

Kurgan
10-04-2001, 05:50 PM
Of course there is reloading! When you run over a clip of ammo on the ground, you automatically reload your gun.

It's not like in Serious Sam, where you have pistols equipped with bullet-makers and automatic reloading (thus de facto infinite ammo).

Or are you asking for a delay in firing and an animation when you reload? I personally don't see much point, except to slow down the action by adding dubious "realism."

Kurgan

StephenG
10-04-2001, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan:
<STRONG>
Or are you asking for a delay in firing and an animation when you reload? I personally don't see much point, except to slow down the action by adding dubious "realism."
Kurgan</STRONG>

this is the type of reloading i would like to see. i think it makes games nicer and also there are clips on the sides of the rifles, therefore i think there should be reloading

StormHammer
10-04-2001, 06:47 PM
A pause to reload your gun works well in Unreal...especially if there is something big and nasty coming at ya. It might also help to balance having duel pistols firing rapidly at you...just enough of a pause to get in a killing shot/sabre thrust.

Kurt Plummer
10-05-2001, 01:46 AM
Depends on how you look at it I suppose, in almost all of the SW novels I've read (admittedly not much post-ROTJ) it is fair to say many scenes are haft to butt or butt to butt 'recharges' (Splinter of the Minds Eye and a couple where Solo recharges his blaster from a Corporate Security weapon before handing off the bigger gun to Chewie) rather than changes.

OTOH, Solo at least /does/ carry a spare on his belt so one has to assume that though the weapon is pretty long lasting in 'normal' use (against non armored targets) it is not so much so that an extra clip/battery isn't appreciated.

What I miss is the fully variable power:range adjustments (without held trigger aim spoiling) and the notion that all Z-function shots come at a fixed capacitance discharge.

If you speed up the basic rate of fire and certainly the distance-travelled SPEED of the bolts you still have to solve for the what-happens-when-it-hits? question.

If it's energy it's gonna lethality-disippate and because it's a game that dissipation curve is gonna be pretty sharp.

But IMO, compensateable for a price.

I think that if you are going to go up against a war robot or some other form of (armored, including Impie) threat you should be able to 'manually' dial up the power, say 1-7.

Now, if it takes three 'normal' blasts to put away the average Storm Trooper and maybe /five/ if he's at any distance, you can have that 20 'round' clip function like it's supposed to and decide not simply whether you want 4 Imps or 10-15 unarmored targets but whether you want a little more 'to be sure' edge when engaging over range.

Tweak it enough and you can change the magazine storage readings so that even a nominally 100 'round' (think more like percentage battery charge) weapon only fires 10-15 times at maximum discharge.

Where this is a function of automated machine-fire you should either be unable to torque up the discharge ('over heated barrel' etc.) or lose an additional one or two battery/clip points for higher rate functioning where the cell is unable to regeneratively recover energy levels between firings and so loses more umph.

At which point, yes, it makes sense to have to _physically change_ power cells or at least plug in any fallen weapon to a quick charger port because it reflects that you may have up to 500% 'rounds' on you but not more than 50-100 in the gun.

Even as it allows you to have more lethal weapons while forcing more caution in picking engagements.

Neat-Other (non-weapon but still enormously useful to find) utility enhancements could then extend to backpack or belt loop driven generator power in some (heavy combat or special opponent) scenarios and also to form double-clip adaptors that effectively serial-feed power from one cell to another (acting like the difference between a 20 and a 30 round M-16 magazine) and/or act like end to end taped or boxframed quick change magdoublers on our guns.

One last thing, I would make the cell-change process graphically unique so that it is NOT 'just like' (too real) standard clip functioning but just a little bit different to reflect SW technology levels.

It should still be relatively fast, but say like loading a shotgun where you drop a cell into a long cylindrical port in the back of the gun and then '**** it' (charge the equivalent of a bolt handle or pump) so that the plugs/prongs are pushed out of their environmental protection packaging and into the firing generator outlet, eventually being ejected and replaced by new in the same way.


Kurt Plummer

JediKnight_114[b]
10-05-2001, 04:13 AM
I'm all for having to stop and reload...just as long as every stormie, gran, rodian, and any other baddies in the game have to as well. I got so sick of the gran's in JK having an unlimited supply of thermals and practically unlimited range. So, as long as it is equal with enemies, I think it would be cool to have to reload.

StormHammer
10-05-2001, 07:36 AM
Speaking of Grans, Rodians and TDs...

I always thought it was strange (and unfair) in JK that some Grans only had blasters, others only had TDs, and some had no weapons other than their fists.

I think all of the enemies should be able to use any of the weapons (except when due to physical limitation). So if you shoot a Gran who's lobbing TDs at you, one of his buddies picks up the remaining TDs and continues lobbing them at you. Or if an enemy runs out of TDs, they whip out their blaster (or pick up one from a fallen comrade) and start firing at you. If they are at close range, then give them a vibroblade, instead of just fists.

Having said that, it was fun trying to get through JK just by boxing with your opponents. ;-)

Back to reloads, again...yes I agree that the enemies should also have to reload/recharge - as long as they don't stand in plain view while doing so. They should duck out of sight or dodge where possible - or switch to an alternative weapon.

StephenG
10-05-2001, 04:04 PM
i know that in SOF2, when a bad guy is out of ammo, they will pull out another gun. they may include this in JK2. i hope they do

GonkH8er
10-05-2001, 04:13 PM
id like to see them toss it away....

or throw it at you and run

btw stephen........ its 3am.......... what are you doing online? :)

[ October 05, 2001: Message edited by: GonkH8er ]

StephenG
10-05-2001, 04:59 PM
i'm up late because i wanna get a good spot in the australia gaming state final thing, thats on sat. starts at 9:00am but have to get on early so i get a spot. the CS state final with use HLTV. I SAY AGAIN, AUSTRALIAN STATE FINALs. i can watch from home using HLTV!!!!! (half-life tv)

its gonna be cool!!!!

[ October 05, 2001: Message edited by: StephenG ]

StephenG
10-05-2001, 05:11 PM
i saw a new SOF2 screenshot and the player 2 guns (one in each hand)but they were different guns. it would be cool if you had a two different guns (one in each hand) just like SOF2.

Kurt Plummer
10-06-2001, 03:44 AM
Use of grenades at /all/ is my question.

I don't care how rough and leathery-thick their skin is, nobody is going to throw a hand grenade at you from bad-breath distances (they /might/ throw a toothbreaker pin-in to scare you pissless though...).

Especially when it's clear from the vocals that the blast is hurting them too.

If you want to employ explosives do it smart with standoff (blooper, high trajectory), around-corner lobs and over-obstacle ambush type tactics.

Make Force-Push work as a shunt against projectiles and droids as a counter.

Once the LOS battle is opened however; I fully support switching to another weapons system (if only for rate of fire considerations) as well as harsh limits on the opfors ability to have 'infinite' weapons regeneration.

Such fun to kill a Gran only to find a grenade or belt with perhaps 1-3 left on it when I know if I had simply let it keep throwing it would have teleported in some more. And some more. And some more.

I would also think that tactics of use should match opponent and remaining ammo. An enemy should fully be ready to spray low-power bolts at you (or a group of you) to startle and suppress a sudden meeting engagement.
Look at Han, nominally 'good with a gun' but alls he did was pit the roof of the Docking Bay entrance when those Imps came in.

A big shielded guy or armored vehicle which practically glows with protection might get group-concentrated, hi-power, shots while low-ammo users should retreat and/or allow pass-thru so as not to be overwhelmed.

In other words, the enemy should be a LOT more _slippery_ and especially where this applies to bots vs. MP, it might be neat to have say Jedi acting as a screening/security force.

'Leaping tall buildings' or going quick/invisible to catch grenade throwers from the flanks or behind and pin them as the main band of heavy weapons carriers come up slow and careful and force them to choose between eating a light blade or maybe an energy mine vs. becoming target practice for very high ROF repeaters (with **PUNCH** for pities sake!).

Btw, speaking of 'big guns' though I _am_ a naturally foul mouthed, ill humored and generally unkind person, when I a say _c_o_*_k_ a weapon I don't mean by ramming my 'gross anatomy' into it. Damn PC idiots.


Kurt Plummer

Kurgan
10-06-2001, 06:20 AM
Btw, again, the Crossbow in JediKnight and MotS is NOT the same as Chewbacca's bowcaster seen in use in Return of the Jedi.

The one in JK/MotS is a weapon that was modified from the Wookie design for use by the Tuskens. It might be shaped similarly, but it's a totally different gun.

Just as the Bryar pistol is a modified weapon (from the Bryar rifle). I agree, the Bryar should be made more powerful than it is. I like the idea of giving the enemies limited ammo and multiple weapons (and the ability to pick up other weapons, etc). Making smart enemies makes sense. Of course I'd like to see them get better aim too and coordinate attacks. Bots in the Q3 engine are pretty good (though they'll need to be taught to saber/force fight), the SP AI could be very good potentially.

As to the issue of reloading, I don't want it to be like Half Life. If it's such an issue, somebody could just make a mod for it or something. Perhaps certain weapons could have manual reloading functions (like a rocket launcher or something), but even the cheesy reload pauses like in Unreal I think are unnecessary outside single player. It just interrupts the action and slows things down. Sure cosmetically it might look cool, but it doesn't HAVE to be in there just because other games (which are usually not taking place in the SW universe anyway) have it.

If I want that kind of game, I can just play that. JK was always about fast action and lots of stuff, but it never slowed down. Will JK2 be as fast? I hope that the team makes a stab at getting close to that level of speed and action...

Anyway, getting late, enough posting for one night. ; )

Kurgan

Yun24
10-08-2001, 03:41 AM
Lasers DO go the speed of light, can go arund the world 7 times in 1 second. :D