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View Full Version : Force Predict, know we must


Lightspeeder
11-22-2001, 07:48 PM
There have been rumours emanating from a certain screenshot, but will there be a form of Force Prediction. In some of the books Luke predicts what people will do. This would be so cool in the game. How would it work and be implemented though.

TrUeFoRcE
11-22-2001, 07:53 PM
i dont think they could put force predict, unless u wanted the game to pause every few seconds and tell u what each guy was thinking, but that would suck in-game

darthraptor52
11-22-2001, 07:58 PM
Maybe there will be the enemy, doing his thing, but when you use force predict, there is a gohst of the enemy doing what the REAL enemy will do next! Understand?

Agen
11-22-2001, 08:08 PM
OR... you could use it and the games pauses and shows u what he's gonna do and it has 50/50 chance of working

CaptainRAVE
11-22-2001, 08:55 PM
I think a cool feature would be bullet time like in Max Payne....lol....that would be real cool, especially when fighting with a lightsaber :)

ZeroXcape
11-22-2001, 09:06 PM
darthraptor52 & Agen_Terminator: Both really good ideas... but it would be extremely hard to implement this force in Multiplayer ;)

Agen
11-22-2001, 09:07 PM
I'd be really annoyed if that happened. it's bad enough all them movies copying the matrix never mind all our games
EDIT: u psoted jsut before so what aobtu it being a single player only thing

[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: Agen_Terminator ]

TrUeFoRcE
11-22-2001, 10:21 PM
its a good idea for a force power, but its not that great of an idea to put in a game i think, jedi knight is suposed to be fast paced anyway so it probably wouldnt fit too well in the game...

Khan Aidan Hall
11-22-2001, 10:46 PM
They already have this in a lot of games, it's called lag prediction...

SotE_Xizor1
11-22-2001, 11:17 PM
This force would only be good in Single Player actually. In multi player it'd be useless. I love the idea. Yup, in some of the novels, Luke read other people's minds and that's how he always saved everybody he was with. I'd like a Force Toss, where you toss enemies against a wall.

StormHammer
11-22-2001, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by Khan Aidan Hall:
They already have this in a lot of games, it's called lag prediction...

LOL :D Nice one.

Hmmm...such a Force power sounds good on paper (so to speak), but I'm not sure it would work in practice.

It would be near impossible in MP, because you don't know what a real player is going to do next...so the only way it could potentially work is by trapping their next move, delaying it, running the 'ghosting' sequence, then running the actual move, while allowing you as the player to respond how you see fit - keeping in mind that the other player could also have the force power turned on. It would slow down the whole game, and potentially introduce even greater lag.

As for SP, well, it might be useful if there was manual rather than auto-blocking. Then it would give you the necessary split-second delay to swing your saber in the right direction to block an attack. But if autoblock is being used like in JK, it would be fairly pointless, IMHO.

I think we have sufficient defensive force powers already to deal with most conventional attacks from non-Jedi enemies in SP, such as Speed, Jump and Mind Tricks etc. ;)

digl
11-22-2001, 11:52 PM
He can see things before they happen...

Khan Aidan Hall
11-23-2001, 02:15 AM
The only way I could see this actually happening in the game would be if it was used as a cutscene in the singleplayer game to advance the overall plot.

Moses
11-23-2001, 03:32 AM
"From a certain screenshot"? Does that mean the one with the Jedi fight and the fading movement of the Dark Jedi? If so, the week that came out a RAVEN guy told us it was a mistake and shouldn't even have been released. And if that's not the one you're talking about, then I say what everyone else has been saying. ;)

Ben_Walker
11-23-2001, 03:38 AM
May be it could work like this, something like the screen flashes a different colour when an enermy or someone is near.

C.H.A.S.
11-23-2001, 04:05 AM
Like Spider Man

"Surf the web, surf the web."

"Spidy sence is tingling."

nykel007
11-23-2001, 10:10 AM
It's a good idea, but for me I won't want to use it it might slow me down when I'm slicing the next man to bits. ;)

Lightspeeder
11-23-2001, 06:55 PM
thanks for the views. I agree that it would be nearly impossible to implement in multi player and hard in single player. But I've had a slightly differnet idea, in the ESB luke sees that leia and co are in danger and speeds off to rescue them. Maybe in the game you have visions of traps or large enemy forces. This could be cool and easy to imple ment but might make it harder to have surprises. To get round this maybe they woul d be scripted or only happen when you have enough mana.

p.s darth raptor, I bet your pleased with the ipswich result

CaptainRAVE
11-23-2001, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by ZeroXcape:
<STRONG>darthraptor52 & Agen_Terminator: Both really good ideas... but it would be extremely hard to implement this force in Multiplayer ;)</STRONG>

Indeed it would be a good idea, but if they had this feature it wouldnt be possible to have multiplayer, and we know they have a small team working on multliplayer....so there is no force predict.

Its like max payne, with bullet time its impossible to have multiplayer, so unfortunatly there was no multiplayer feature.

Agen
11-25-2001, 02:39 PM
it's not completely impossible as Black and White imlemented Bulelt time (if u want to call it that) and it also speeded gampley up...
You jsut had to agree

Emon
11-25-2001, 08:23 PM
Force Prediction = Cheap in SP
Force Prediction = Impossible in MP, if everyone is countering what everone else is going to do, then nothing happens and it cancels out like it never existed.

CaptainRAVE
11-25-2001, 08:33 PM
Thats a very good point,but it would be possible in single player........on the topic of the force...I really like what they've dont with force lightning.....looks incredible :)

Omedarcus
11-25-2001, 08:41 PM
I hope it's just like that force power in MotS where you could fly wherever and see what else was in the level. I just got the JK1 & MotS demo the other day and discovered it with cheat codes :D

Kurgan
11-25-2001, 09:33 PM
Like Spider Man
"Surf the web, surf the web."

"Spidy sence is tingling."


Haha! I love that game, played it on my DC over the past week (those symbiotes are tough ##$#%$$). Although the camera really needed work. I hear the PC version didn't really do much to improve that, but oh well.. still a fun game. Probably the best Super Hero video game I've played. Too bad the sequel won't make it to DC...


... our bad."

"Our bad? OUR BAD??? I'm GONNA KILL YOU!"


Yeah, I don't see a feasible way to put force prediction into practice in MP, without slowing down the entire game and making it dull.

Kurgan

[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]

Kurt Plummer
11-25-2001, 11:35 PM
Three Kinds of Prediction:

1. Intra-Melee.
Totally Automatic and _transparent_ to user sensibilities.

You (pre)-see, you block (few incomings) or you jump out of the way (many incomings).

Activated by something like Force Sabre Fighting (except you don't have to hold the damn key down!) where you become 'locked' into a slower, more deliberate, advance, ala Quigon and Obiwan in the Naboo Hangar scenes.

Concentrating all-ahead, until the Mana runs out.

Saber:Sabre, the key here is the ability to control FACING (always eyes on opponent vs. 'FREE' where you can spin to engage a blaster in any direction or simply run away) as above and to determine multi-attack patterns that break down/past an enemies blocking ability with guile and strength/repetition.

If you can always start 'from center' (balanced across the arch of your feet and hips, facing your opponent) you should have X# of blocks and Y# of attacks.

Using _Keyed Control_ to shift the available total towards offense/defense should then increase the X or Y percentages respectively (and you should be able to walk around with this preset).

_Where Blocking Is Automatic And Perfect_

Based on number of 'strokes per second' between opponents, you then control the engagement by either forcing your enemy literally offbalance (losing a stroke or two of defense per forced movement) through raw power or by eating up blocks and then cutting inside with combinations of your own moves.

Clearly:

1. If a Master takes on an Apprentice, he should have near total dominance of the encounter just based on how many times per second he can hit WHILE STILL DEFENDING.

2. If an Apprentice torques up his defensive energy (the amount of Force Sabre Fight concentration dedicated to blocking) he can block a higher level opponents attacks but without doing much to turn things around.

Player interpretation then being how and where he attacks (see my other posts on an eight sided cut pattern key wheel and programmable katas).

The Combination of skill-level= strokes per second and defensive/offensive combat percentage control is what makes an engagement 'win or lose'. Eventually.

How well you slice and dice with patterned cuts is what makes you /look good/ doing so.

Because sometimes just "Seeing the train coming", doesn't mean you have enough oomph to get off the damn tracks... But you should never just sit there like a deer in the headlight.

2. Meeting/Contact.
Probably the most critical mode not yet handled by JK game engining.

You walk into a room, 'get that funky feeling' and spin+lightoff to counter the incoming round before junior ninja pulls the trigger. The ONLY way to control those first few critical-sniper instants if you are without 'shields' (as everyone should be...).
As with Melee fighting, it is a function of having the weapon in hand and the mind set on reacting to the moment.

i.e. 'Turn on' the Force Sabre Fight equivalent key beforehand.

3. Precognitive/Clairvoyant ISR.
What the military parlance now terms 'Intel, Surveillance & Reconnaisance'.

Where space is time and time is space based on whether you need to know RIGHT NOW or want to /predict/ for 'later'.

If you know people are in a room before you walk into it, there is less 'wow!' but also more confidence because not only can you step in pointed-the-right-way but you can also know if there's two more behind you (in which case you probably take a couple out with Mind Tricks or a grenade, if you go in at all).

Whether this is 'X-Ray Vision' or a little voice nagging you or whatever should be linked to yet another, SEPARATE, Force Power.

Because it is more about projecting an awareness into a detached place nearby or future point that is still someways 'temporally distant' in the timestream than it is knowing what body part the enemy muzzle is going to be pointed at half a millisecond from now as he/she/it pulls the trigger on you.

IMPLEMENTATION
IMO, the key to ALL of this is interpreting how you are going to fight vs. what your 'levels' of extended awareness are relevant to.

In SP, having multiple powers running (say mindtrick stealth and spatial precog and muzzle predictive sabre blocking skill) is going to be **Very Draining**.

Indeed it might actually also 'lock you in place', especially at junior levels, so that you can literally not be engaged in normal motor skills while your mind was off touristing.

As this applies to a 'running fight' (literally, imps nipping at your heels) a well scripted encounter engine might 'force' you into sudden engagements simply because you forgot or had no opportunity to 'look ahead'.

In MP, it's more about how badly you want to get into the sabre duel vs. how much dorking around beforehand you're willing to put up with.

Saber+Blaster (CTF etc.) games could be controlled by the range at which the opfor could be detected (no more than a couple rooms ahead) or the time frame in which that enemy gave you a chance to prepare before he changed configuration or simply set up traps (mines, weakened ceilings or floors, stun fields etc.) that were not 'cancellable' even if you knew they were there.

In any case, you are going to know how the battlefield is level-laid out fairly quickly and this will nullify a lot of the thrill of force prediction/farsight while, if you wanted to provide a countermeasure, the simplest form would again be 'Jedi Mind Tricks' wherein you measured (MP discrete survival) rankings as a function of who saw who and who got 'jammed'.

After which it is simply //Blitz the QB!// with speed and overwhelming firepower.

Given that you should be able to sense someones psyche wandering around the force equivalent to Astral Plane space, too much probe and project might also lead to someone (with JMT active) backtracking you to your physical location while you stood there in a trance and didn't see him 'coming' at all.


Kurt Plummer

Jedi Howell
11-25-2001, 11:48 PM
u hv waaayyy too much free time. i only read half of it(teh other half is for tomorrow or later tonight), but I agree w/ most of what u r saying.

jh