View Full Version : Strong Points in Ravens' Games

11-06-2001, 01:50 AM
The point of this thread is to discuss what you liked from Ravens' other FPS's, namely Soldier of Fortune and Star Trek Elite Force, that you would like ported over to Jedi Outcast.

I can think of a ton of things, but I won't list them all because I would like to hear what you guys liked.

One thing that I liked about Elite Force was the ability to zoom in with any weapon. In my mind it eliminated the need for a sniper rifle and the need for a separate binoculars button.

In Soldier of Fortune, there were two buttons called Weapon Special 1 & 2. They were more like taunts or to "show off". I'm really hoping for visual taunts as well as audio taunts. Maybe you could twirl the saber in you're hand, or kneel into a meditate position.

Another thing that dates back to the Heretic days, and is being used in Soldier of Fortune 2, is the ability to use two hands for two different weapons.

They couldn't possibly be planning this for JO too, or could they? ;)

One thing's for sure, we don't have too much info right now, so I wouldn't put it past them.

Any other old school Raven fans in JK2.net cyberspace?

11-06-2001, 02:24 AM
I for one am really excited about taunts which will be put into JKO. Like you said, they will most likely be geared toward the lightsaber, but I know at least I will use that the most anyway. ;)

11-06-2001, 02:52 AM
Actually the part about zooming with any weapon was simply left in from Quake3. Nothing new or original there.

I always liked the secondary firing functions for the Dark Forces series, because they made the weapons a little more interesting and useful.

I hope very few if any of the weapons in JK2 have zoom functions, but I hope they all have some secondary function. But zooming is just boring (and even in Quake3 it wasn't that useful, except to spy ahead).

The last thing I want is the game to play and feel exactly like another game (even if that game is JK, it should build on the foundation and standard set prior, not just copy it).


Darth Lunatic
11-06-2001, 03:07 AM
OK firstly

Heretic 2
At the time that game was fantastic! I loved the use of the staff, using it to pole vault youself across gaps that couldn't be jumped over. The spells Corvuus had were awesome, it was like diablo 2 in 3rd person mode in a way. The character design was superb, the different levels corvuus journeyed to were all different and had a unique feel to them. The story was pretty good


Soldier of Fortune
The locational damage was what set this game apart from others. Finally, after years of putting up with utter bs, , when i shoot a guy in the head he dies!! When you shoot a guy in the leg he limps, or the limb comes off entirely. There weren't too many memorable scenes in the game. The story wasn't great. It was like a dumb Arnie action film. I never played it multiplayer, and i assume it never reached much popularity either, since you never hear anything about SOF multi!!

Elite Force
I don't think theres been a game with such an authentic feel. It really did feel like you were walking around on the decks of the federation starship Voyager. The game had some great weapons, the zoom feature was pretty cool. The level design was exactly what you would expect, the locales were identical in feel and atmosphere to the TV series. The story was ok, but the ending sucked badly. The multiplayer was your typical gun blazing quake style. Really no extra thought was put into this, although it had limited entertainment it's addiction level came nowhere near that of counter-strike.

Jedi Knight: Outcast
Judging from these other games we can probably assume that the levels will have a very Star Wars'y feel to them. Weapons will cool. Characaters (npc's and enemies) will be good. Story will be average. Multiplayer will contain nothing original, and will be mindless running around blasting ppl. I hope thats not true, but it's what i'm prepared for.

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: Darth Lunatic ]

11-06-2001, 03:32 AM
looks like i'm the only one who didn't like zooming with all weapons.
i hope in Jedi OutCast you can only zoom with scoped guns.

11-06-2001, 07:08 AM
I'm a bit of a fan of Raven's games myself...I've got all the Heretic and Hexen games, SOF and EF.

What elements of these games would I like to see in JK2?


You could fight hordes of enemies in those games...and you had to keep moving and thinking about what to do next. Of course, they were also the first games to introduce an inventory, and a hub system. And the sheer number of items to pick up always gave you a good choice of what to do in any given situation.

Heretic II:

One of my favourite games, and I still consider it to be one of the best 3rd person games I've played. The animation of the main character was done well at the time, and the range of attacks and movements was fantastic. The story was engaging (if a little short), and the ending was good too. I also liked the ability to play with different skins (added in the enhancement pack, along with an extra move or two). I also liked the inclusion of defensive spells.

Soldier Of Fortune:

Although the plot was a bit generic, it was well told in the game's context. The range of options in the configuration menu was very good, and allowed you to tweak the game to your liking. The locational damage was, of course, very good, as were the death/injury animations of the NPCs. And of course, who can forget the moving train level (short as it was)? I liked the snow levels too. The sniper rifle was also well done - simple and effective. Lastly, I liked the way you could reconfigure your arsenal/equipment for every mission, and the limit on what you could carry.

Elite Force:

I still haven't completed SP yet (stints in hospital really interfere with gaming..grrr :mad: ), but I've nearly reached the end of the first sneaky mission, which was done very well. The range of weapons and their effects is very good. The puzzle elements are not too intrusive. The bot holomatch is good too.

The only weak points I can think of is a tendency for linearity through levels, the games are a little too short for my personal taste (really, I enjoy them so much I wish they lasted longer), and the story is not always as strong as it could be.

So which of these elements would I like to see in JK2?

1. Hordes of enemies
2. A wide range of pickups to allow more choice of action in certain situations.
3. A wide range of moves and different attacks, similar to HII.
4. Good story.
5. Good ending.
6. Skin configuration for SP?
7. The tweakability of SOF.
8. The option to reconfigure your arsenal/equipment for each mission.
9. A couple of good sniper weapons.
10. At least one moving vehicle level like SOF's train level.
11. Some logical puzzle solving elements.
12. The opportunity to sneak through several levels.

Guess that's all I can think of for now.

11-06-2001, 08:16 AM
I wanna see this game beat CS -.-
OR at least make it such a way that it'll make CS look it sucks and this game is meant for people with higher intelligence level -.-

Millions o' Monkeys
11-06-2001, 09:19 AM
what about counter-strike condition zero ? :D

Darth Lunatic
11-06-2001, 09:24 AM
The only game that will beat Counter-Strike is ....Counter-Strike 2!

But seriously, Counter-Strike is running on the friggin half-life game engine. The graphics are not up to par with current day games. But the frigging gameplay is just so addictive, graphics are almost irrelevant.

I just hope sooner or later a game is released that truly does make counter-strike look bad.

Millions o' Monkeys
11-06-2001, 09:59 AM
cs:cz is looking pretty nice though

Darth Lunatic
11-06-2001, 11:03 AM
IT is looking better than CS 1.3, but not better than JKO :)

11-06-2001, 04:09 PM
I think JKO has the chance to become one of the best fps ever and be round about as good and addictive as cs but it depends if they take this chance!

11-06-2001, 06:28 PM
I like the way Raven always surprise us in ways which we would never think of.

In Elite Force there were loads of clever puzzles, but they never became boring and never took you away from the fact that it was a fps. You couldnt just storm through the level with guns blazing, but had to think and be careful as one wrong move could have made it tens times more difficult later on.

There are loads of strong points, too many to discuss at once.

11-06-2001, 08:34 PM
raven games usually have good maps, high poly models, good graphix, and good features, and usually a stopyline to their games.

CS is gettin a little old, i think sof2 will be 10 times better than cs:cz , theres always tons of little kids playing cs and alot of hackers, the only thing i like about cs is the realistic guns, but thats about it, nothing else special about it...

11-06-2001, 10:12 PM
i hope the game sports a little more realism as far as powerups, picking up guns, etc. *of course this should take a back seat when gameplay issues come up*

i know its a game based on fiction, but even in star wars, the guns, weapons, star fighters, etc. were modeled after real assault rifles, jet fighters(to some degree). adding a little realism, like powerups that fit in, instead of simply randomly being placed there makes it easier to immerse yourself in the game enviorment.

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: DeathBoLT ]

11-07-2001, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by CaptainRAVE:
<STRONG>I like the way Raven always surprise us in ways which we would never think of.

In Elite Force there were loads of clever puzzles, but they never became boring and never took you away from the fact that it was a fps. You couldnt just storm through the level with guns blazing, but had to think and be careful as one wrong move could have made it tens times more difficult later on.

There are loads of strong points, too many to discuss at once.</STRONG>

i think Elite Force did get boring. i hated the level with the respawn flying guys. My favourite level was the cargo hold bit.

11-07-2001, 05:41 PM
I agree with trueforce sof2 will dominate counter-strike but, when the multiplayer for it is finally released not beforehand. JO on the otherhand will have both single and multiplayer and of course it will attract people like us but to attract mainstream CS players would be challenging. We will see, we will see. :)

[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: Bart-=[JCS]=- ]

11-07-2001, 05:54 PM
JO will dominate most games...its one of the few games where it takes skill to be good at it, in games like cs it takes a day or so to master it, no big challenge but with jedi u always gotta be on ur feet especially playing ff...

11-08-2001, 12:54 AM
i dont think CS takes a day to master. I've seen a ton of people who been playin' longer than i have and they havn't mastered it. Perhapes u are a skilled player, that why it took you a day to master? i'd like to take u on 1v1...for fun :)

Darth Lunatic
11-08-2001, 09:15 PM
Exactly, CS is a hard game to get good at. IT takes maybe 2 months, before you really know what your doing, then another few months to master the skills.

Having the different recoil rates in the guns adds a whole new dimension to the game. It gets rid of the 'all guns blazing' tactic that is so common in quake 3 type deathmatch games.

I just hope the saber dueling in JKO multiplayer is what makes the game good. What i mean is i hope using the saber effectively is a hard skill to master.

[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Darth Lunatic ]

11-11-2001, 06:21 AM

11-13-2001, 01:36 PM
I've only played the demo to Heretic 2, but it seemed pretty cool. I hope they borrow some combat ideas from it.

I have read at least 2 previews now that have hinted that the combat in JKO is pretty dull. Just hack at each other. Incorporating some ideas from oni and heretic 2 would be a good idea to aleviate this. (Especially the ability to flip off walls to behind your opponent).

Elite force: way too short. dull weapons.
nice atmosphere.
HOlodeck/dream levels might be cool. (Like luke running into himself/vader in the cave, or I76 (if anyone remembers) where one whole level (in black & white) turns out to be a dream.)

Zoom on every weapon doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I want those cool binoculars to be useful. But maybe the ability to get scopes for various weapons would be cool. (see NOLF) But only for certain weapons, and with different ones being able to get different levels of zoom.
Silencers or something would also be cool upgrades (again see NOLF) because, if the game is gonna involve a lot of infiltration enemy installations then some sort of silent kill weapon (like silenced pistol, crossbow or speargun) would be essential.

11-13-2001, 01:58 PM
I have read at least 2 previews now that have hinted that the combat in JKO is pretty dull. Just hack at each other. Incorporating some ideas from oni and heretic 2 would be a good idea to aleviate this. (Especially the ability to flip off walls to behind your opponent).

Ummmm...no offense TomS, but what ARE you talking about? Would you mind posting the links to these previews?

They have had nothing but good things to say about the combat, NO WHERE does it say it's dull. I don't know where you get your info, but it's obviously unreliable.

Please post the links, I'm curious. :)

11-14-2001, 01:34 PM
well. One was Pc Gameplay mag in the uk. (i think that was what it was called. Never bought it before...but i was on a long train journey and bored out of my skull. Not that impressed.

The other... i can't remember, it was an online one a while ago (maybe gamespot). It wasn't as blunt about it, but the way they wrote it definately gave the impression it needed working on. :(

of course... i think it is just using the JK combat code at the moment... i assume they will update it before the game is released..

11-14-2001, 01:42 PM
I'm sorry TomS, but I find it hard to believe without proof.

i think it is just using the JK combat code at the moment

And what the heck is that supposed to mean? JK2 is using the Q3 engine, so JK1 has nothing to do with the code.

Patience is a virtue.

11-14-2001, 07:01 PM
dream levels? well i cannot say i played EF (if that is the game you are refering to) but the dream levels in max payne just annoied the piss outta me... they were fine and all, but didnt add much to the game for me... max payne had one the the most intreaguing, immersive storylines i have played in a while... but the dream (OD) levels just didnt do a lot for me...

11-16-2001, 12:38 PM
it means they haven't put in any advannced moves yet, apart from the basic swings that were in JK.

As for dream levels, it would be cool if you had a dream level, and then in a later level you came across the same places / people / events (but maybe slightly altered) and the dream had given you a clue as to how to proceed...

11-17-2001, 11:10 PM
Heretic 1 & Hexen 1:
Way way better than Doom :D

Hexen II:
Cool single player and the best multiplayer! Playerclasses hadded variety.

Heretic II:
The best single player and the best 3rd person game ever. I hope Jedi Knight II is like Heretic II with respect to 3rd person.

Elite Force:
The best Star Trek game and single player game ever. It also had neat stuff like NPCs that helped you in single player.

11-18-2001, 11:40 AM
Welcome to the forums, Omedarcus. :D

On the topic of dream levels...I'm not sure I'd like seeing that in JK2. Maybe a premonition in a cut scene...but not wandering through some weird dreamscape. :p