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View Full Version : More Weapons and Shield Ideas...


Kurt Plummer
11-24-2001, 08:17 PM
Okay so supposing we 'have to have' shields...

How about making the enemy have equivalent tech (ala glowing bubble destroyers) /in varying quality=quantity/?

Think about it, what is **fun** about a living opponent? His 'randomness' of response? The certainty that if it 'had really been real' you would have killed a living man?

Maybe, but to me it's the simple fact that he is nearly my equal, 'technologically'. And thus has the shield power and weapons endurance to last with me awhile, whatever his skill.

So, assuming that some military technology is not readily available (i.e. restricted autofire weapons as with our society but perhaps quite a few more powerful, 'high powered rifle' type hunting weapons):

Every random-X numbered (encountered) badguy, _NOT a 'boss'_, has equal-to-you shields.

Every Storm Trooper has X10 short absorbant armor, /except/ for head shots which are X1-X2.

Sabres still cut through personal shields/armor like butter but perhaps not heavy weapon/vehicle (blaster cannons etc.) ones.

All the 'normal=others' depend more on stealth and ambush onsets of fire to kill.

By putting more capable threats in among the normal guys and perhaps even /generating them/, X1-2-3-4 per each increasingly difficult level, the level itself becomes more memorable and more frightening because you 'never know' how many shields-as-high-as-you types are out there.

Now as to guns...

Rererereplaying JK for the umpteenth thousandth time, irritated because for some reason I keep getting dumped to desktop on the Jedi-vs.-Jedi levels with Sabre-X, I noticed that EVERYONE has the 'Imperial Blaster'. Duhhhh.

First off, I would think that there would be a LOT of places, either under nominal Imperial or New Republic or even just "I'm the baddest nasty and You Will Obey My Dodge Gun Laws" neutral planets; these would be hard to carry in even semiopen conditions as they are 'militarized' with a 3-round burst (more or less) capability that makes them to-equal to recognized military/police forces.

Either way (as fast as you finger or as fast as the chamber cycles) it would be NICE if we could see more, smaller, concealable, weapons that are _race specific_ in terms of how they work (not everyone has 'hands' let alone fingers) and especially how they look.

This would also open up the need for an 'adaptor for each planet' when recharging your own gun or perhaps selecting a weapon that is specific to that planet.

I would also like to see much more variety in terms of typed-fires.

Militarily, there are three kinds-

Point: Rifleman
Streaming: Machine Gunner
Box: Explosive or Very High Volume

Which you use differently based on the numbers of opponents, force symmetries, the 'suddenness' of encounter and your own casualty/ammo/morale state.

Where a constant base of fire is established it would again make both tactical and game-pleasure 'sense' to see differing rates of fire based not only on actual weapon capabilities but -individual- ones.

Some will spray and pray, randomly scoring hits at best.

Some will use good fire doctrine to put out controlled bursts of fire, alternating targets as numbers:ratio needed and coneing fires between 2-3 shooters to saturate over/around broken LOS hiding places.

Some, really good, merc or otherwise 'professional soldier' units will use **combined arms** techniques where the engagement will begin with a mine or grenade or rocket attack and then a heavy gun will open up from a sited position across the defilade of approach and create a suppression corridor 'fix' of enemy attention as the rifleman open up on specific targets in a timed 1-2-punch type attack.

Lastly, I would also like to see /some/ opportunity for _prepared engagement_ fights so that we can take REAL advantage of any system like the energy mines by prepositioning them.

Especially in the open, Police units will differ from Military ones in the way they seek cover and call for reinforcement instead of trusting their autoguns and armor to respond with fire to a small ambush type scenario.

IF _you_ pick the target lanes, fallbacks and rally points against an 'overwhelming force' (say platoon to company level 50-200 men) you can guesstimate where the enemy is going to fall into protective cover and 'bury a surprise' for him.

This ability to start the engagement at a surprise advantage and have the results (disaster or daring victory) based on how well you PREP the battlefield is a key advantage (and satisfaction) to a defensive mission instead of all the "Into the lions mouth" type offensive raids we now indulge in.


Kurt Plummer

TherosB
11-24-2001, 08:51 PM
Hmmm....that part about setting up a battlefield. It sounds more like all those fps tactical games and turnbased strategy games than an fps/adventure game. Is that what you are aiming at? A more tactical/strategy based fps or what? Some of what you said sounded neat, but I could figure out what you were applying it to! Would it be connected to multiplayer or single player. Are you referring to just the opponents or also the hopes of the player being able to take advantage of those pre-game tactical setups?
Also, your idea on making the enemies random in toughness is pretty good. I don't think giving 'em shields is the right idea since I don't even think Kyle should have 'em. But you are on the right track. Lets scrap the shields altogether, and just have different degrees of bodyarmour toughness. And why do lightsabers pass through the shields anyway? They are energy after all!

General Theros

Khan Aidan Hall
11-24-2001, 09:50 PM
*blink*

Can somebody tell me what he just said?

TrUeFoRcE
11-24-2001, 11:02 PM
decent idea, but arent the main enemies pretty equally matched to kyle? i think they purposely made the game with easy enemies all around and tough bosses, thats how most games are and thats how it is in the jedi movies as well because stormtroopers etc.. arent equal to a jedi, but the dark jedi bosses are a challenge, i think that it will turn out to be great no matter what...

Agen
11-24-2001, 11:09 PM
If the stormies weren't a challenge then why did luke run and close the door and swing with leia when the stormies where chaising him. If they were so easy he's jsut chop em all up on one go.....

LilDrumLad
11-24-2001, 11:32 PM
If the stormies weren't a challenge then why did luke run and close the door and swing with leia when the stormies where chaising him. If they were so easy he's jsut chop em all up on one go.....

He wasn't a Jedi yet.

[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: LilDrumLad ]

StormHammer
11-25-2001, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Kurt:
Okay so supposing we 'have to have' shields...

How about making the enemy have equivalent tech (ala glowing bubble destroyers) /in varying quality=quantity/?

Well, I'm having second thoughts about personal energy shields too. I'd rather just see different types of armour, with different strengths...and see my character wearing it in 3rd person. The reason why we probably ended up with energy shields in JK was because they didn't want to go down the road of dressing the character differently for each armour type in 3rd person.

Of course, now the precedent is set, there's no need to change it...but still...

Think about it, what is **fun** about a living opponent? His 'randomness' of response? The certainty that if it 'had really been real' you would have killed a living man?

For me, it's defeating a skilled opponent - which should not always end in death, IMHO. Whether it's using tactics to outwit opponents with blasters, or reflexes in a saber duel, or using a Force power to counter another...it's about using my mind to defeat an opponent, rather than just lobbing TDs to create Stormie confetti.

By putting more capable threats in among the normal guys and perhaps even /generating them/, X1-2-3-4 per each increasingly difficult level, the level itself becomes more memorable and more frightening because you 'never know' how many shields-as-high-as-you types are out there.

Yes, that's all fine, but the idea's nothing new. A lot of games have opponents that have varying degrees of toughness - you're just taking it to the next logical step by basically introducing the idea of RPG hitpoints to your enemies. I have no problem with that...and it would indeed make some fights more interesting.

Either way (as fast as you finger or as fast as the chamber cycles) it would be NICE if we could see more, smaller, concealable, weapons that are _race specific_ in terms of how they work (not everyone has 'hands' let alone fingers) and especially how they look.

I heartily concur. In fact, I've argued the same thing in the past about having more alien tech., including weapons. Considering the size of the Star Wars universe, and the racial diversity, it makes sense.

This would also open up the need for an 'adaptor for each planet' when recharging your own gun or perhaps selecting a weapon that is specific to that planet.

To it's credit, Daikatana had this feature. You had weapons for each time zone - after all, it would have been pointless carrying around a shotgun without any ammo. Hmmm...there were a lot of good ideas in that game. It's a shame that game had major flaws.

I would also like to see much more variety in terms of typed-fires...which you use differently based on the numbers of opponents, force symmetries, the 'suddenness' of encounter and your own casualty/ammo/morale state.

Yeah, I agree to an extent, as long as the game remains balanced.

Some, really good, merc or otherwise 'professional soldier' units will use **combined arms** techniques...blah blah

Yes, I too would like to see opponents mixing and matching different types of attacks. The days of your enemies just relying on one weapon type should definitely be numbered. If they run out of ammo for one weapon, they should pull out another, or pick one up and use that. As you say, they should use a variety of ranged and close-combat techniques. For non-military personnel especially, I'd like to see a greater variety of weapons at their disposal, including specific melee weapons such as vibroblades etc., so you never really know what to expect from them in an encounter until they start firing, or lobbing things, or slicing and dicing. ;)

Lastly, I would also like to see /some/ opportunity for _prepared engagement_ fights so that we can take REAL advantage of any system like the energy mines by prepositioning them.

I agree to an extent - although it would be very reliant on enemies pursuing you, if you are talking about laying down traps while entering their own installation.

It might work better if we are talking about a defence oriented mission, such as holding a facility against attack, a la MotS level 1, or the Wheel of Time's Citadel concept. You could be given a certain amount of time to lay down your defences in the positions you deem appropriate before the threatening force arrives. It would certainly introduce a greater tactical element.

Kurt Plummer
11-25-2001, 10:09 PM
General Theros et al:

PERSONAL PROTECTION
Armor or Shields I don't care, just so long as you occasionally (even in single player) get the effect of "Oh, another character just like me!"

I mean after all not everybody gets to be bad guys but some of them, by rank or unit or just randomness should be 'as good as you are'.

Similarly, I feel bad for the impies because IMO, they should be, if not less moronic tactically then at least more unstoppably juggernaut /driven/. The only way to make that happen is to provide them with some degree of 'baseball invulnerability' (above the knees, below the neck) to _civillian_ blaster weapons.

Merlin once asked Arthur which he liked better, Excalibur or the Sheath it came with.
Arthur, being one of your typical Hoo-Ah! types thought the shining steel was the best so Merlin gently smacked him alongside the head with a two-by-four and while Wartie stood there dumbstruck and bleeding the old mage wisely intoned: "Moron, the blade won't ever break but you sure as hell still do. Keep the sheath by your side and at least you won't bleed out..."

Shields are much the same, especially where the enemy gives you a 'stand up fight' instead of peeking his blaster and one arm around the edge of a crate or whatever (like any sentient person would).

Therefore, not only to add a /feeling/ of 'other people that matter' in the game but also for tactical reasons, it makes sense to have one guy who _can take hits_ covering for others who must shoot and scoot or whatever.

His fires will be more personally accurate because he is able to take his time aiming them. Conversely, his focussing of YOUR attention (with a blaster anyway) improves the lethality of the others because he doesn't go down immediately with your first shot or his reflected one.

WEAPONEERING
What I'm saying here is that it's not always the weapon -effect- (darts, rockets, concussion guns etc.) 'newness' that we should be hoping for but rather how it 'looks' (colors and noise and rate of fire cue you to what is 'just another blaster' but still one with unique abilities) coming at you.

And maybe also how you know to pick it up off corpse-A instead of the 'other one' off corpse-B. In those cases where you are just starting out or don't have time to do a reload.

So... You can't bring a gun to Planet-X because the local marshall says it ain't nice.

/However/ you can pick up a local brand because the natives know how to smuggle in or home-grow better than you do.

Is it 'still a ray gun'? Of course.

But maybe it's a little more accurate or a little harder hitting or fires in multiple.
Just not all at once.

This would in turn let _Imperial Grade_ weapons, when you found a crate of even aging surplus, be MUCH more 'powerful' as a function of presumeably the only autogun design allowed 'For Military Use' in a long time under the former Vader and Palpatine's ironfisted rule.

As is, the Imp-guns are /useless/ because they spray wide and don't really pack a wallop or have a deep clip or whatever.
That's a shame because in truth THEY should be the only weapons that can kill another Imp with just a couple shots and THEY should be the reason the Imps ran herde for so long against the 'civillianized' lowpower versions.

TACTICS OF ENGAGEMENT
Now even an abo-threat is dangerous when you're on your own because there is no implied "If I kill him, the ten guys in shiny white armor behind him will pour fire in my direction until I'm one cooked little green man".

BUT 'You Are A Jedi' which should be the equivalent of Ten Men or more.

So how does a /wise/ enemy handle this?

By laying traps.

And by running away.

Think about Afghanistan and the fear of Taleban 'small ambushes' on our large, blundering, forces.

You come down the forest path and all of a sudden a machine gun to your front starts employing _streaming fire_ down corridor defined by your line of march.

You decide you have to get off the dang road except that ten more guys with slower firing _point fires_ stand up with their slower but physically (muzzleline as well as trigger pull) separate and precisely aimed firing signatures from the flank or 'defilade'.

And just about the time you think it can't /possibly/ 'get any worse' as you finally find a rock bigenough to crawl under, WHAM! Somebody pulls the cap on the prepositioned mines or artillery rockets that have been zero'd to /precisely/ that position.

And then they all disappear.

Now maybe you're full of holes and maybe a couple of them are but the key thing to note is that they 'engaged a superior force' (YOU) and at least depleted your shields and then retreated back to what are called rally points (common joinup ground with protected entry) to fight another day.

And they can do this over, and over and over.

Every 1,000 to 5,000m in open battlefields, as little as a few feet in closed room/MOUT.

SMART warriors fight with a way out, expecting to have to fight again.

DUMB prideful fools, take on someone they know can kick their a$$ in straight up encounter and hope that 'maybe if I get him first this time...' And seldom do.

The difference, especially for game play is like a 'miniquest' where you are forced off the beaten plot-path, fighting these nasty little wabbits that keep vanishing back into the bryar patch.

Or taking hits for each scrabbling inch of 'normal' progress you make.

PREPPING THE BATTLEFIELD.
I am indeed thinking of cases like the MOTS Level 1 encounter.

But to make it unique:

Say maybe someone wants to clone himself a Jedi and so your spaceship was dragged out of hyperspace by an Interdictor gravity well projector and, in 'getting away', your ejector seat or life boat has been damaged and come to a hard rest on some forbidding, utterly uncivillized, planet-Y.

What's more, the bad guys are close behind, coming to see if anybodies still moaning in the wreckage.

You MUST survive, uncaptured, until rescue can arrive.

In this case, the ability to use remote-call (light mortar on an automount) or remote detonation weapons (garage door opener linked to energy mines) is the key to being 'proactive' instead of a herded animal.

Cops have a saying about chasing a well armed perp: "He who follows fastest...Dies First".

Soldiers have a different one: "Grab him by the beltbuckle and he ain't gonna run very fur..."

Victory for the one is achieved by pinning you in place until superior force can arrive, and SWAT can 'negotiate a surrender'.

For the other firepower is organic and it is simply about massing it in one place sufficient to both gain contact and roll-up resolve the combat, all at once.

Imps should NOT fight like cops.

That is NOT what '_Storm_ Trooper' means.

Nor should they just stand there in 2's and 3's looking like department store manequins in really funny clothes.

They should MOVE, forcing YOU TO MOVE, and while ten of them MOVE CLOSER the other twenty should fix-and-pin you so that you either die with a blaster bolt in the back or get overrun in a static defense.

And where you are fighting in an area with large open lines of sight, you can expect to take direct fires for a LONG time.

Mining and indirect fires let's you MAKE the enemy 'respect your battlespace' by forcing them to think like cops instead of soldiers, denying them the ability to /chase/ you, and thus letting _you_ move from fighting position to fighting position in a controlled manner while their heads are down.

Now it doesn't have to be fancy. It could be something like a "They'rrrrre HERE!" countdown timer that started at +60 or so seconds and forced you to LOOK AT your map and pick 'likely drop zones' etc. and then work your way back to a last stand defensible area or whatever.

Picking and Crosscover 'choosing' which areas you will defend against (based on a "Now I know the enemy isn't coming here, or is he?" random number generator basis so the mission never got old) in the hopes that you nail him in the one place that he /is going to be/ is a key element of resource (mines) and time (placement) management.

In JK1 I only used energy mines twice:

Once, when I had to remove a couple walkers from one of the outlying plazas around Jerec's tower at Baron's Head.

And again in the room below the airconditioning duct on the Tower Roof when I was hurt real bad and somebody just 'Called Reinforcements'.

What a waste of a weapon-code for something that is utilized so little.

OTOH, what a thrill to go mawno ah brawno with say 200 Storm Troopers (or equivalent bad guy X) and /beat them/.

Not only with sabre techniques, which should have limits after all...

But with tactical control of the way and especially /rate/ that the battlefield develops as they come after me.

H'yeeeer Kitty Kitty!:-]


Kurt Plummer

DeathBoLT
11-26-2001, 02:03 AM
it would be nice to see storm troopers actually using military tactics as opposed to just standing there and dying...

RuFF
11-28-2001, 08:39 PM
uuh you want Counterstrike... room 5
this is jedi knight. :cool:

Kurt Plummer
11-29-2001, 02:14 AM
I forget the exact SEU book, but Luke Skywalker And Party land or maybe crash on some back of beyond world full of Ysalmiri and he of course abruptly loses most of his Force Capabilities.

After being chased around the half the planet by Thrawn or Mara's (duuuhhh??) Storm Troopers and just as it looks like he and his are backs-against-wall-gonna-lose-it-all; he lures the baddies in under a /massive/ rock archway of, does the toss-light-sabre-trick and 'with one mighty blow', kills them under crashing stone.

One of the good guys in accompaniment says something like: "Wow, and I here thought that he couldn't do anything around the worms!?".

And another one replies with something like: "He is a Jedi, don't be stupid and think that that all the legend is based on the gross display of parlor trick powers..."

You 'fight' --> here (tapping dense block of granite like material above the neck) you *execute* here --> (reaching a little lower).

It would do much to increase the challenge of play (more scenarios) and /say much/ about the nature of heroes and moral=smarter struggle in the SW universe if being a Jedi meant you were more than just another thug with a 'superior weapons system', called The Force.


IMO, Kurt Plummer

Celestial
11-29-2001, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by Khan Aidan Hall:
<STRONG>*blink*

Can somebody tell me what he just said?</STRONG>

Try reading it, that seems to help.