PDA

View Full Version : The Raven Comparrison


CaptainRAVE
11-25-2001, 07:35 AM
I love this new comparrison Raven have done between JK and JK2....I knew the graphics were amazing on JK2, but I never realised they were so different, especially the lightsaber handle :)

Millions o' Monkeys
11-25-2001, 07:42 AM
yeah...theres also some very funny ones likr this one
http://www.ravengames.com/images/jediknight2/comparison/thumb_explosion.jpg

Agen
11-25-2001, 01:34 PM
poor jk
*sniff sniff*
i liek the explosion one.. lol
least the jk2 explosion graphics aren't basic bitmaps

StormHammer
11-25-2001, 04:08 PM
Hmmm...I really didn't see the point of that comparison. JK2 was obviously going to look better than JK.

They should try doing a comparison between JK2 and Unreal II, which is supposed to come out around the same time. ;)

CaptainRAVE
11-25-2001, 05:06 PM
Its nice to see the progression in graphics anyway. I also like the explosion one, actually, its quite funny, and im sure in a few more years time we'll be able to laugh at the JK2 graphics, lol. How things change :p

Lucky
11-25-2001, 06:26 PM
Good point storm, or doom3 or sof2 or a q3 based game. You guys realize this game's graphics are going to be dated the minute its released right?

doom3/ut2=new generation, q3=old generation.


Lucky

StormHammer
11-25-2001, 06:45 PM
At least JK2 won't look as dated as C & C Renegade. Graphically, that game looks a lot like the original Half-Life did (at the moment). They have delayed it's release until early next year, so maybe they're going to work on the visual side of things.

But I digress. I guess that as an exercise in seeing how graphics have changed over the years, the comparison's valid. What I'd really like to see them do, though, is try to predict how the next Star Wars FPS game (if ever made) will look in 5 years time. :eek:

Emon
11-25-2001, 07:12 PM
Dude...Renegade looks NOTHING like Half-Life! You must not have seen some of the better pics of it...those guys are soo detailed. They look a little cartooney, but that's the style of the game.

As for JK2 being compared to Unreal II? Well, it would be killed. Unreal II is FAR more capable than Q3 or Doom 3, IMHO.

CaptainRAVE
11-25-2001, 07:15 PM
I personally think they should have waited and brought JK2 out on the Quake 4 engine, at least that way it would be able to stand up against the likes of Unreal 2 and Max Payne.

StephenG
11-25-2001, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by CaptainRAVE:
<STRONG>I personally think they should have waited and brought JK2 out on the Quake 4 engine, at least that way it would be able to stand up against the likes of Unreal 2 and Max Payne.</STRONG>

Max Payne? Payne is gonna be sliced and diced by Jedi Knight 2. i reckon JK2 is gonna be 6 loads better that Payne!

Obi Kwan
11-25-2001, 09:31 PM
Wasnt this comparison done by Ravengames.com and not by Ravensoft the company? It would seem a little pretentious for Ravensoft to do a comparison like this, but it makes perfect sense the Ravengames.com (or another fan site) would do this. I remember some one posting some comparison pics back when we got some of the first screens; its amazing to see the difference! :D

Wilhuf
11-25-2001, 09:47 PM
It's a fun comparison, but it overlooked important context.

Jedi Knight was designed to run on PC hardware common in 1997. Jedi Knight could run on a Pentium 90 MHz with 16 MB of RAM. Of course the original Jedi Knight graphics were low resolution, and the polygon count low.

I don't think Jedi Outcast will look very good on a P90 with 16 MB of RAM (if it will even run at all).

The achievements in graphics have as much to do with progress and availability of better graphics and computing hardware as they do with software technology. ;)

Nevertheless, Raven's artwork in the screens is top quality.

Emon
11-25-2001, 09:58 PM
There is no Quake IV engine. Quake IV runs on Doom III.

StormHammer
11-26-2001, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by Emon:
Dude...Renegade looks NOTHING like Half-Life! You must not have seen some of the better pics of it...those guys are soo detailed. They look a little cartooney, but that's the style of the game.

Hmmm...I've seen quite a few pics of the game...recently too. The characters look detailed enough, as do the weapon models. Although I've seen better (Unreal II, Duality, New World Order etc.)

But the scenery looks a bit HL-ish to me. I think they need to revamp the textures (and polygon counts on scenery) a bit...go for a bit more photorealism, IMHO.

Good point there, Wilhuf. ;)

CaptainRAVE
11-26-2001, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by StephenG:
<STRONG>

Max Payne? Payne is gonna be sliced and diced by Jedi Knight 2. i reckon JK2 is gonna be 6 loads better that Payne!</STRONG>

Actually Max Paynes specs will be higher than JK2. Remember Max Payne uses a newer engine than the Quake 3 one. If you've played Max Payne maximum graphics then youd know what I mean. Even my...

1.4Ghz Athlon
512Mb DDR Ram
64Mb DDR Ram GeForce 2 GTS
just about run it best graphics.

The Quake 3 engine doesnt have the ability to stretch beyond the Max Payne graphics. Thats why they need to make the new Quake 4 engine so they can compete with the rest of the market. Im just surprised they didnt wait and bring out JK2 on the Quake 4 engine......maybe they need JK2 to finance the creation of the Quake 4 engine.

X-Vector
11-26-2001, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by CaptainRAVE:
<STRONG>Im just surprised they didnt wait and bring out JK2 on the Quake 4 engine......maybe they need JK2 to finance the creation of the Quake 4 engine.</STRONG>

I don't think developing Jedi Outcast using the D3/Q4 engine was ever an option, because it would mean that Raven would have to wait for both these games to be released before they could finish JO.
Read clem's post dated 11-21 3:43 PM here (http://www2.ravensoft.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000431-2.html) and you'll know why that is completely out of the question.
Even if Raven wanted to go for it, Activision would never allow the game to be delayed that much, the only Raven game to be released between Elite Force (2000) and Quake 4 (late 2002/early 2003?) would then be SoF 2 and I think Raven are simply not (financially) independent enough from their publisher to go for that option.

CaptainRAVE
11-26-2001, 05:46 PM
Actually they wouldnt have to make Quake 4 as a game, just as an engine. The only reason Quake 3 was made into a game was to show off the Quake 3 engine.

Kurgan
11-26-2001, 06:08 PM
Yeah, you'd EXPECT JK2 to look better than it's 4+ year old predecessor (has it really been that long!).

Of course, while that is a nice throwaway comparison for SW fans, it would be nicer if they compared it to say Quake3 Team Arena, Elite Force, and other Q3 engine games, to show how they are expanding and tweaking the engine.

Graphics technology have come a long way, although they aren't everything, as we all know.

Also, keep in mind that higher system specs just means you'll limit the user base (since not everyone is a hardcore gamer willing to shell out the big bucks for a high end pc with each new game that comes out).

That is perhaps another reason why some old games (which were good in their own right) like JK and HL are still popular. Anybody can run them pretty much. The newer games are slow except on new systems for the most part (except for RTS games, pretty much
which are still mostly non-3d accelerated).

I'm sure everyone would love to have the best graphics and the prettiest visuals on their screens, but chances are, most people will go for a game that's smooth and playable on their current machine, and it's cheaper to just get a game that fits your current requirements than upgrading because the new game is choppy.

And the hardware company execs will be laughing all the way to the bank anyway...

Kurgan

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]

Kwup
11-26-2001, 07:23 PM
now lets do a REAL comparison...


http://www.unreal2.com/images-dynamic/E3Shot01-640.jpg

http://www.lucasarts.com/products/outcast/images/screens/28.jpg
both images are property of their respective companies

nobody, and I mean nobody can say JKII is #1 in the visuals department, so I sure hope it out performs U2 in the gameplay area or we have a sleeper here.

Darth Simpson
11-26-2001, 07:56 PM
Graphics do not make a game. Yes, Unreal II does look better than Jedi Outcast. Does that mean we have 'a sleeper'? No, not at all.

Photorealism, or near it anyway, is not what we want. We want a game that is fun to play, and challenging in the right ways.

I think gamers today are too hung up in graphics. Whenever a new game releases screenshots, we always have to compare them to others, stating that this does not look as good as this. Pointless debate. I'm not saying that good graphics hurt, but games do not evolve from the graphics, but rather the gameplay.

That's my two cents anyway...

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Darth Simpson ]

KISS Army
11-26-2001, 08:01 PM
Just a note: www.ravengames.com (http://www.ravengames.com) is a fan site that's not affiliated with Raven Software. They did that graphics comparison as a feature article.
www.ravensoft.com (http://www.ravensoft.com) is Raven's homepage.

Kwup
11-26-2001, 08:08 PM
what I am trying to point out is the fact that not only is JKO beat in the graphical department, but also the weapons announced so far are amazingly boring. I can guess right now that 5 weapons will be the same as JK, maybe a few will be balanced, the saber will be much better, but other than that the guns have nothing going for them. Lets just hope the force + maps + story + community can make this game what JK once was

X-Vector
11-26-2001, 08:23 PM
Hey RaoK, I see your point, but did you *have* to choose by far the least impressive of the latest batch of JKO screenshots for your comparison?

Anyway, I'm playing JK again at the moment (I almost forgot what a marvellous game it really is) and I'm wondering if anybody knows if there is a way to turn off that hideous mip-mapping/lod feature (it turns the textures into a fuzzy mess at a certain distance)?
I know this is OT, but I'd really appreciate it if someone could give me a definitive answer on the matter.

Kwup
11-26-2001, 08:27 PM
http://www.lucasarts.com/products/outcast/images/screens/29.jpg

http://www.lucasarts.com/products/outcast/images/screens/27.jpg

are these two better? the bottom one has the nice lightning effect, but everything else besides the saber is too plain. dunno maybe its me

StormHammer
11-26-2001, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Darth Simpson:
Graphics do not make a game.

Photorealism, or near it anyway, is not what we want. We want a game that is fun to play, and challenging in the right ways.

I agree (although my previous posts may seem to the contrary). I do like nice graphics...but they are secondary to the gameplay. Quake II looked better than JK (they were released around the same time), but I preferred JK's gameplay.

So, although I think Renegade doesn't look on par with some other games...I think it will have the gameplay to make up for it (hopefully).

The same thing may apply to JK2 when it goes up against the likes of Unreal II etc. If Raven can deliver an SP game with a strong story, and 20+ hours of varied and challenging gameplay, with lots of choices in how to play, and a great MP to boot, I think it will stand the test of time like it's predecessor. ;)

Agen
11-26-2001, 08:50 PM
Observe \/ http://www.unreal2.com/images-dynamic/September04-640.jpg

to
http://www.jediknightii.net/screenshots/screen026.jpg

Ok, Unreal 2 "looks" good there but does it or does it not lok stupid...
I mean the guy is firing a rocket launcher to a guy about 2 metres away form him and the explsion looks very short period of timew liekish and erm... Unreal.
But if u see my point the graphics in u2 are damn good and JK2's are above average BUT jk2 looks more sensible...
Here's another example.........
http://www.unreal2.com/images-dynamic/CGImage03-640.jpg

to
http://www.jediknightii.net/screenshots/screen025.jpg

The character seems to be just running in dodging slow moving bullets and gonig on a simple maniac killnig spree (nice but old hat)
Compared to jk2 it is more stealhy and ahs more thinking to do with it as did jk1... u had to plan ur jumps and develop tactics and routes around maps..
Once again it "looks" better but you can see jk2 has more solid gamepley.
I hope this comparrison helped you.
:)

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Agen_Terminator ]

KISS Army
11-26-2001, 08:59 PM
Anyone have any idea what the system requirements are going to be for Unreal 2?

X-Vector
11-26-2001, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by RaoK:
<STRONG>are these two better? the bottom one has the nice lightning effect, but everything else besides the saber is too plain. dunno maybe its me</STRONG>

Yes, these two are better (especially the first one, because it shows a sense of scale that resembles that of JK's maps, although it's not quite as 'dwarfing' yet).
It's not just you that has some issues with the dullness of JKO's world design, I've voiced my concerns before and although the quality seems to be improved I think there's still some way to go before JKO stops looking somewhat like an Elite Force mod.

Quake II looked better than JK


That might be true from a technical point of view, but IMO Q2 has got nothing on JK when it comes to variety and 'colour' of level design and a sense of (overwhelming) scale.
I don't think it would be too outrageous to call JK the better looking game allround.

Kwup
11-26-2001, 09:01 PM
sorry to say, but I'm not going to play star wars over unreal because "it is more real", I would play it by what is funner. To me, dodging rockets and seeing huge explosions and massive weapons is fun. not saying that JKII wont be fun, but _at_the_moment_ U2 looks like a sure thing, while JKII looks like a maybe.

Agen
11-26-2001, 09:07 PM
Ok who else wants to shoot him?
If ur desperate i'll elt u do it but other-wise i'll do it

StormHammer
11-26-2001, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by X-Vector:
That might be true from a technical point of view...

I was talking from a technical POV. ;)

Of course JK's levels were far better designed. When I played the first level for the first time, it blew me away with it's sheer scale. QII didn't even come close, in terms of level design, secret areas, atmosphere...I could go on, but I won't bore you. :D

The problem now, though, is that the situation is reversed. JK2 is being made with a modified Q3:TA engine...but other engines now look superior, and will potentially handle greater sizes in terms of terrain, potentially allowing some mind-blowing level design. The key word there is potentially. So JK2 is basically in the same position as it's forerunner...it may not look as pretty, and it has strong competition.

But the real test will be in the gameplay, the level design, the strength of the story, the depth of the characters, the AI, the choices in gameplay, and the flexibility of the weapons. JK2's aces up the sleeve are, of course, Force powers, and the strong melee element that other titles will probably lack.

*draws a deep breath*

I guess this game just gets me fired up. :D

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: StormHammer ]

Agen
11-26-2001, 09:29 PM
did u spend 10 minutes thinking up all those precise words?
Think back and jk2 is in the position jk was......but it remained very popular even though crappy graphics BUT was still superior!
Q2 could have had much more terrain but it screwed up it's chance. Let's hope that history is as kinmd to jk2 as it wqas to jk.
Still waiting for peps to shoot this guy

Kwup
11-26-2001, 09:38 PM
since when was jk popular? 1000 people on the zone is nothing, while counter-strike (with 1998 graphics) still has 100,000 people on daily. same with Everquest...even if you say SP was the main JK focus, I would still say it did not sell as much as Q2 or HL

Sounds Risky
11-26-2001, 11:09 PM
Raven needs to make some really colorful levels to contrast with the rather drab ones they're showing off now. Just an opinion :D

OnlyOneCanoli
11-26-2001, 11:15 PM
Well, they have to make a balance between beautiful levels and cold, cruel Imperial fortifications. The Empire really doesn't care much for making their fortresses beautiful. But I have high hopes for the outdoors levels, and the Massassi Temple.

StormHammer
11-26-2001, 11:29 PM
Hmmm...maybe they could include a load of Imperial banners, or effigies of the Emperor to add a bit of spice to the Imperial levels.

Lucky
11-26-2001, 11:38 PM
if you didn't like JK you should go whore the ut forums up, cause thats one of the main reasons we're all here.

JK2's graphics aren't that far behind ut2's, which is incredible. UT has no glowing lightstick for me to skewer ninnies with who don't realize that JK was game of the year and won a shiz load of accolades.

if yer a graphics monkey, go play a different game. we're here because we really dug JK, and we want to play its successor with all the fervor we played the 1st one with.

btw, quake 4 is going to be a raven title developed using the doom3 engine. there is no quake 4 engine, and there won't be for another 3-4 years. if you're going to make unrealistic demands of our wonderful programmers from god [cough raven cough], at least get yer damn facts straight.


Lucky

Sounds Risky
11-26-2001, 11:39 PM
That's what I'm figuring Canoli, so here's hoping :D

Kwup
11-27-2001, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Lucky:
<STRONG>if you didn't like JK you should go whore the ut forums up, cause thats one of the main reasons we're all here.
</STRONG>

who said I didn't like jk/jk2? I wouldn't be here if I didn't, I'm just trying to get a point across that, "Jedi Knight II may not be the most perfect game ever created" only time will tell

sanpilou
11-27-2001, 10:56 AM
JK2 WILL BE THE BEST GAME EVER CREATED HAHAHAHAHA(laugh isterically while pointing a :eek: gun :eek: at mister :D monkey head :D )

Dante
11-27-2001, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by RaoK:
<STRONG>

who said I didn't like jk/jk2? I wouldn't be here if I didn't, I'm just trying to get a point across that, "Jedi Knight II may not be the most perfect game ever created" only time will tell</STRONG>

and unreal 2 might be the same...lets not forget when unreal 1 came out it was meant to be the game that put the quake series in the grave...visually impressive...gameplay wise - one of the worst and the most boring FPS's i've ever played in my life...the only thing that saved that engine was its improvement and subseqently UT...no one plays unreal 1 but they still do play quake 2, alot...with HL...its main saving grace is the fact that it is a good game...even thought visually it suffers abit...and it most likely will be the same for JKO...and ill say this - raven have so far made impressive, fun and pretty good games to date...SoF, elite force...and they have made good use of the tech available...if they waited for the doom 3 engine it would take more time just to see what the engine was capable of...the Q3 engine is by and large the best engine out there right now...and it will last as long as the Q2 and even the Q1 engine...so wait until the game comes out before u start your critique...but be prepared to eat your hat

Kwup
11-27-2001, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Dante:
<STRONG>
the Q3 engine is by and large the best engine out there right now...</STRONG>


:rolleyes:

Agen
11-27-2001, 03:00 PM
if you didn't like JK you should go whore the ut forums up, cause thats one of the main reasons we're all here.
JK2's graphics aren't that far behind ut2's, which is incredible. UT has no glowing lightstick for me to skewer ninnies with who don't realize that JK was game of the year and won a shiz load of accolades.

if yer a graphics monkey, go play a different game. we're here because we really dug JK, and we want to play its successor with all the fervor we played the 1st one with.

btw, quake 4 is going to be a raven title developed using the doom3 engine. there is no quake 4 engine, and there won't be for another 3-4 years. if you're going to make unrealistic demands of our wonderful programmers from god [cough raven cough], at least get yer damn facts straight.

Damn right... can't agree more.
Unreal 1 failed quite miserably but UT covered it's tracks... They couldn't make it a good fps story/sutff but thye decided to use it to make it a bot game which was the wisest choice they ever made and that's the only reason thye are making this because the fan-base for UT will help it flow.
If it's the same people do it again with the same things then it might be eye-candy but not candy! (quote the candy if ya want)

since when was jk popular? 1000 people on the zone is nothing, while counter-strike (with 1998 graphics) still has 100,000 people on daily. same with Everquest...even if you say SP was the main JK focus, I would still say it did not sell as much as Q2 or HL

You see the reason.. go visit another thread where they are talknig abotu why the ozne damaged jk and to correct jk DID sell more than q2. Mayeb not asm uch as half life thoguh it did sell more than most game...
Kapeesh?
JK2's graphics aren't that far behind ut2's, which is incredible. UT has no glowing lightstick for me to skewer ninnies with who don't realize that JK was game of the year and won a shiz load of accolades.
They were gutted :D

and unreal 2 might be the same...lets not forget when unreal 1 came out it was meant to be the game that put the quake series in the grave...visually impressive...gameplay wise - one of the worst and the most boring FPS's i've ever played in my life...the only thing that saved that engine was its improvement and subseqently UT...no one plays unreal 1 but they still do play quake 2, alot...with HL...its main saving grace is the fact that it is a good game...even thought visually it suffers abit...and it most likely will be the same for JKO...and ill say this - raven have so far made impressive, fun and pretty good games to date...SoF, elite force...and they have made good use of the tech available...if they waited for the doom 3 engine it would take more time just to see what the engine was capable of...the Q3 engine is by and large the best engine out there right now...and it will last as long as the Q2 and even the Q1 engine...so wait until the game comes out before u start your critique...but be prepared to eat your hat


:rolleyes:
At the moment the q3 engine is the best out there... i don't see what ur problem is.

(laugh histerically while pointing a gun at mister monkey head )
*bang i got him first... sorry :D :D

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Agen_Terminator ]

StormHammer
11-27-2001, 04:47 PM
Okay, there'll be no shooting of monkeys on my watch.

Just a reminder...try to respect others' points of view, and don't resort to insults, people, or you'll force me to bring out my mod gun. :cool:

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: StormHammer ]

Kwup
11-27-2001, 07:19 PM
I haven't been to this forum since July, and all of a sudden I come back and within 5 posts I'm hated again...

is it just me? or does anyone else sense the irony?

btw I used to be Kwup, if anyone remembers me

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: RaoK ]

acdcfanbill
11-27-2001, 07:36 PM
all i remimber is the silly monkey :D

sanpilou
11-27-2001, 07:44 PM
pull out your mod gun and i will pull out my BFG :eek: (Big F****** Gun) :eek:

Kwup
11-27-2001, 07:46 PM
remember this?

http://banbu.8m.com/kwup.jpg

StormHammer
11-27-2001, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by sanpilou:
<STRONG>pull out your mod gun and i will pull out my BFG :eek: (Big F****** Gun) :eek:</STRONG>

ROFL ;)

Now, stay cool. All I'm asking here is for everyone to try and treat others with respect. Okay? :cool:

Agen
11-27-2001, 08:51 PM
I haven't been to this forum since July, and all of a sudden I come back and within 5 posts I'm hated again...
is it just me? or does anyone else sense the irony?

btw I used to be Kwup, if anyone remembers me


Blame the monkey...
Wait a minute... didn't i shoot kwup a lnog time go.....?
I can remember shooting something with a monkey at the bottom.
StormHammer i wasn't insulting him... i was "abusing his right".. i mean i mean no insult....
BTW
Congrats on becoming our new MOD.

Kwup
11-27-2001, 08:54 PM
the monkey has become more powerful than you can possibly imagine

jipe
11-27-2001, 08:57 PM
you don't "turn off" mipmapping.. it's an integral part of the engine. otherwise, something called the "moire effect" begins to happen.. a 128x128 texture fills up less screen pixels than 128x128, and you get weird patterns and worse framerate.

Agen
11-27-2001, 09:02 PM
*shudders*
Remember tomb Raider chronicles clips?

Wilhuf
11-27-2001, 09:04 PM
Just as an aside, actually I really enjoyed Unreal 1's single player campaign.

But the only reason I liked it is because I played it in cooperative multiplayer mode using Unreal Tournament. Was a lot of fun to play it using the UT weapons ;)

Meanwhile, I don't think we need ultra-colorful Jedi Outcast levels. After all, this is Star Wars. So, we must expect a lot of Star Wars Gray to go along with the typical mono-climate planets.

Excuse the interruption...

... You may proceed with the monkeys.

Agen
11-27-2001, 09:07 PM
Ok i'm quite sure msot people would agree to replace the monkey with a spoon!

Kwup
11-27-2001, 09:15 PM
there is no spoon

StormHammer
11-27-2001, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by Agen_Terminator:
[QB]
StormHammer i wasn't insulting him... i was "abusing his right".. i mean i mean no insult....

Guilty conscience, Terminator? Tut tut. :D

It was a general remark. Maybe the word I used was a little strong, though. ;)

And thanks for the welcome. ;)

Agen
11-27-2001, 09:30 PM
And thanks for the welcome.
No probs. "GET OFF MY SCREEN!"
j/k :D

there is no spoon

*Raok drops dead to the floor because of the words he used*
"Defy the spoon and u shall be detroyed"
*shoots Monkey*
"Muhuwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah"

Questions?

Kwup
11-27-2001, 09:33 PM
yes I have a question...

just exactly how old are you?

not that I'm picking on youngin' but.... :eek:

StormHammer
11-27-2001, 09:39 PM
Terminator...you seem to have an unhealthy fascination with spoons and monkeys. ;)

When you want to start posting on topic again, just let me know... :rolleyes:

Kwup
11-27-2001, 09:40 PM
I think it's the TV that's wrecking kid's brains

what a shame :(

Agen
11-27-2001, 09:42 PM
*Post deleted.*

EDIT (Storm): Okay, Terminator, I gave you plenty of chances.

Please stop spamming this thread.

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: StormHammer ]

Kwup
11-27-2001, 09:44 PM
I think he forgot his "little blue pills" this morning

StormHammer
11-27-2001, 09:48 PM
RaoK...please don't encourage any more spam.

This thread has veered off topic as it is. The next spam post gets deleted.

madrebel
11-27-2001, 10:26 PM
I played JK from the time it came out until tribes1 came out. You may or may not remember me i dont care i know JK like the back o my hand. This leads me to think that.

Youre all forgetting alot about JK and why it didnt do as well as other online games despite superior gameplay.

1. The zone
horrible service, lets hope this time there is in game irc as well as a good in game browser (with the q3 engine this is pretty much a given)

2. No dedicated server
q3 engine means dedicated server...linux dedicated server too.

3. Crappy net code
Yes i realise that at the time the "ghost" model they used a good alternative, but it still sucked compared with q2s code. If you argue that youre an idiot.

4. Map/Level editor
JKs map editor was weak and difficult to use. If anyone argues about the quake series user created maps compared to the JK user created maps then well again, youre an idiot. Qrad has turned out some an amazing amount of user made maps. Of the top of my head i only remember maybe 5 user maps that were really made well, maybe 15 total that were worth playing.

5. Cheats and dev support
Cheats were NASTY in JK. Yes i had the toggle invul script and the toggle uber saber. Mainly as a defense against the l33t coggers. But the JK community had to make tools to help kick the cheaters (god i forget the name of that tool off hand). Basically the support from lucas arts paled in comparision to that of the iD type developers. Yes i realize quake2 had its share of cheats/aim bots. But with dedicated servers and server admins (perma bans and the like) dealing with these cheaters was easier. Now the Q3 engine has relatively no cheats when compared to q2 so that is very promising(yes i know about wall hacks and the aim bot, minor compared with Q2).

It is my opinion that at the time JK had better graphics and better, faster, more varied (FF guns NF guns FF sabers NF saber...), and just all around more rewarding gameplay.

Think for a second, you remember the JK saber duels over a 28.8? God it was so cool but man it so sucked. The ONLY real good saber duel i ever had was on a lan and man i think i soiled my drawls during that fight. Saber strikes actual skill had to be used. Hell primary attack was useful on the lan that was odd it wasnt just a secondary attack run around and hope you hit where he was going to be.

Now think about this. Dedicated server, low ping broad band saber duels (me drools). That alone makes me cream for this game. OH man FF guns on oasis with a dedicated server and no need to guess where he might be in 2 seconds.

JK2 promises IMO to have the best gameplay of any game out at the time.

you shouldnt even mention the words unreal and gameplay in the same sentance ;)

also JK won best gave ever over some pretty huge titles from pc gamer. not an easy task.

Dante
11-27-2001, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by RaoK:
<STRONG>


:rolleyes:</STRONG>

ok mr sarcasm...give me the game engine out on general release at the moment...oh and i mean as in already in a game on sale right now...

StormHammer
11-27-2001, 11:07 PM
Welcome to the forums, madrebel. Enjoy your stay. :)

I can see you're really passionate about the game. ;)

Kwup
11-27-2001, 11:30 PM
...unreal engine > q3 engine

many will dispute that, but I stand by my decision. why is that you say? because I'm a biased jerk who likes arguing, why else?

anyways, I believe that the Dark Age of Camelot engine is better, thousands of people, great graphics, not as fast but just as good or better

or what about the Tribes 2 engine? sure T2 sucked and Dynamix didn't do a good job with their engine, but you gotta admit 64 people at one time with little net lag = good

madrebel
11-27-2001, 11:44 PM
Well allow me to retort.

Q3 engine is better and here is why.

no software rendering code.

the unreal/UT engine still has software rendering code in it. This slows down overall performance.

now arguing U2 vs Q3 is apples to oranges.

Im persoanlly more impressed with the very few doom3 shots/videos ive seen than i am with U2. I like how quiet iD has been with doom3. Not many screenies little gameplay footage no leaked alpha. Just seems more professional to me and i feel their engine will be superior.

DAoC has a great engine. A great engine that isnt well suited for a FPS/ACTION game. Hell it doesnt even support 5 button mice wtf is that ? :(

T2 would be pretty cool. Problem IMO is the editor is not condusive of indoor environments. Something that is a must for a JK style game. No current fps engine can do outdoor worlds like T2 that is true. Also if you think t2 doesnt lag to high hell with 64 players in the game youre smoking rope. My NASA system even slows to a crawl with that many. T2 was rushed sierra are faggits and i will only warez their games from here on out.

Kwup
11-27-2001, 11:46 PM
http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/images/smilies/iamwithstupid.gif


er I mean on the bash Dynamix/Sierra part :p

DeathBoLT
11-28-2001, 12:26 AM
But the JK community had to make tools to help kick the cheaters (god i forget the name of that tool off hand).

I believe your refering to JK Kicker Helper by MERC_Tiberius

madrebel
11-28-2001, 12:31 AM
that would be the tool in question yes :)

jipe
11-28-2001, 02:14 AM
4. Map/Level editor
JKs map editor was weak and difficult to use. If anyone argues about the quake series user created maps compared to the JK user created maps then well again, youre an idiot. Qrad has turned out some an amazing amount of user made maps. Of the top of my head i only remember maybe 5 user maps that were really made well, maybe 15 total that were worth playing.

Sorry, I'm not an idiot. I've worked with *many* different level editors, including QERadiant, UnrealED, QOOLE, WED, fooled around in ShockED, and last but not least, JED. It is the best level editor I've used, preferable to anything else.

The Quake community is/has been much larger than then JK community ever was, so by basic stats/probability there should be a higher percentage of quality projects. Have you ever played any of the MLP's (4 dm/1 ctf)?

Maybe JED was difficult to use for you because you didn't bother trying to actually learn it, but it definitely is not weak. And no, I'm not a rabid JK "fanboy", I just don't like to see blatant misrepresentation..

madrebel
11-28-2001, 06:23 AM
quality maps brother. JK had very few quality maps/mappers. I personally thin JED was weak ive talked with may other mappers who think the same thing. So far its many opinions vs yours.

fact no opinion yes.

fact though is user created maps in JK for the most part were horrible.

CaptainRAVE
11-28-2001, 10:12 AM
The Quake 3 engine is much better. It might have started off worse, but it had more room for improvements which is why it is still going strong and looks really good :).

By the way, nice to see Stormhammer doing a good job and stopping the annoying spamming :)......nice one

toms
11-28-2001, 02:31 PM
i dunno about you guys, but those JKO shots don't look like anything like final version to me. If ypu look at the comparison with U2 shots the characters and weapons look pretty comparable, it is the texturing and lighting that is the main difference between the two, and also the main thing that makes the JKO levels look really flat. The tiling on some of those JKO textures looks like some of those (usually bad) levels made in JED a few years back.

This doesn't however have much to do with the engine, if you look at other Q3 engine games, their levels look much prettier, mainly due ot better texturing and more atmospheric lighting.. something they obviously haven't gotten around to yet..
give them a chance...

http://gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2001/pc/act/wolfenstein/112701/rtcw_screen006.jpg
jpeg compression is a bit crap on these...
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2001/pc/act/wolfenstein/112701/rtcw_screen020.jpg

they might not be quite up to U2 standards (it is a new engine after all)... but they are still pretty nice.

Agen
11-28-2001, 03:57 PM
How'd u do that stormhammer? I had posts before i saw any of yours (i never saw any) and now they're infront...
im ighth ave been worknig offline
oops but then i still saw raok's. anyway.
i have noticed the level design insn't as good as soem other q3 engines games..... hmmm maybe we shoudl give them a bit of time.

CaptainRAVE
11-28-2001, 04:09 PM
There are some really nice looking JK2 levels which actually look better than the Unreal 2 ones.......like this one..... http://www.jediknightii.net/screenshots/screen020.jpg .....this sure is better than any other game I've played or seen previewed.

Also people keep saying about the plain textures.......well that just simply is star wars. I've never actually seen much detail on walls etc in star wars games anyway.

wardz
11-28-2001, 05:05 PM
I think these dull levels help the lighsaber stand out. It is not very SW like either to have really nice looking places. Most locales are quite dingy, adds to the atmosphere IMO.


wardz

StormHammer
11-28-2001, 06:05 PM
Hmmm...I'm not sure about lots of simple textures in Star Wars. A lot of things have that worn look, covered in dirt, grime, dents and scratches. Of course, a lot of environments are also clean and subtle. So as long as there's a mixture (as I'm sure there will be), I can't see much of a problem. ;)

X-Vector
11-28-2001, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer:
<STRONG>Hmmm...I'm not sure about lots of simple textures in Star Wars. A lot of things have that worn look, covered in dirt, grime, dents and scratches. Of course, a lot of environments are also clean and subtle. So as long as there's a mixture (as I'm sure there will be), I can't see much of a problem. ;)</STRONG>

You have brought up a good point here, StormHammer.
One of the aspects that sets the Star Wars universe apart from the rest of the scifi world is the 'used' look that features prominent throughout the movies.
SW is not squeaky clean and antiseptic a la Star Trek, it's down to earth, human, bruised and battered in places.
This is the one thing that I feel Raven still has to grasp to ensure the game looks 'right'.
With all the pimping of the Q3 engine in this thread, I'd still like to see the first id powered game that features the 'dirty' look that Unreal engine games have shown. One example being UT, take a look at its rocketlauncher to see what I mean, another is the upcoming Duke Nukem Forever, which clearly shows the effect in the texturing of the chainsaw in the Area51 screenshot (http://www.3drealms.com/duke4/shots/DNF_Nov99_Area51.jpg) (FYI this is 2 year old footage).

Kwup
11-28-2001, 06:40 PM
that's only because George Lucas was poor when he was filming it :p

madrebel
11-28-2001, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by X-Vector:
<STRONG>

You have brought up a good point here, StormHammer.
One of the aspects that sets the Star Wars universe apart from the rest of the scifi world is the 'used' look that features prominent throughout the movies.
SW is not squeaky clean and antiseptic a la Star Trek, it's down to earth, human, bruised and battered in places.
This is the one thing that I feel Raven still has to grasp to ensure the game looks 'right'.
With all the pimping of the Q3 engine in this thread, I'd still like to see the first id powered game that features the 'dirty' look that Unreal engine games have shown. One example being UT, take a look at its rocketlauncher to see what I mean, another is the upcoming Duke Nukem Forever, which clearly shows the effect in the texturing of the chainsaw in the Area51 screenshot (http://www.3drealms.com/duke4/shots/DNF_Nov99_Area51.jpg) (FYI this is 2 year old footage).</STRONG>

fyi, that "2 year old shot" is even older than that. That is from the E3 footage in i beleive 96 or 97 which was using the quake1 engine at the time. They didnt make the switch to the UT engine until late 98 early 99.

Name one other unreal engine game that looked "dirty".

I can name a few quake series games that looked "dirty" kingpin being the most notable. Soldier of Fortune, hell SoF2 looks very gritty.

Unreal looks so cartoony. Dues Ex was a decently "gritty" game. But i cant think of much else that had the dirty feel.

jipe
11-28-2001, 06:50 PM
quality maps brother. JK had very few quality maps/mappers. I personally thin JED was weak ive talked with may other mappers who think the same thing. So far its many opinions vs yours.
fact no opinion yes.

fact though is user created maps in JK for the most part were horrible.

Did you even bother READING my post? There are tens of thousands more people in the Quake community - the PERCENTAGE of QUALITY maps to overall RELEASED maps is pretty much the same, but the NUMBER (total) of quality maps is higher in the Quake community because there's so many more authors/levels.. it all averages out. That, and q3 was a much more popular game, which means more talent drifts to it.. it has almost nothing to do with the editor itself.

Everyone I know who's actually experienced with using JED swears by it. Brush editing is more intuitive than negative-space, but JED is entirely more flexible.

No, that's not a FACT that most user created maps weren't of too high quality. That is a straight up OPINION, and although I agree with you, you're confusing fact and opinion.

Two quotes:

acdcfanbill: "just the tinkering with JED i did was really difficult and confusing... never really did get the hang of it"

h0rb (hebedee): "i agree with jipe. in my vast editing experience, JED is - by far - the most versatile and functionally capable editor out there."

Kwup
11-28-2001, 07:30 PM
ya right, JED is by far the worst map editor I have ever used

I never learned it after trying FOREVER

I learned and made my first UT lvl within 2 weeks of playing with UnrealED

Same thing with Worldcraft (Half-Life)

ZeroXcape
11-28-2001, 07:43 PM
RaoK: I agree, JK editing isn't a breeze. As far as JK editing goes though, there are only a few options at hand. Any can pick up Worldcraft after two minutes of playing with the editor, but JED takes a bit longer to master.

If you like editing q3, you'll be right at home with the JKII editor.

Agen
11-28-2001, 07:59 PM
But remember jk was a,de in 97. q3 radiant is quite new. easier tehnology

X-Vector
11-28-2001, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by madrebel:
<STRONG>fyi, that "2 year old shot" is even older than that. That is from the E3 footage in i beleive 96 or 97 which was using the quake1 engine at the time. They didnt make the switch to the UT engine until late 98 early 99.
</STRONG>

Nope, sorry to disappoint you but that screenshot was released in November '99, it is part of a batch of ten shots with one more to follow the month after (the DamGuide shot).
Also, 3DR switched to the Unreal engine earlier than you mention, immediately after E3 (May) '98 to be exact.

Name one other unreal engine game that looked "dirty".


Undying.

I can name a few quake series games that looked "dirty" kingpin being the most notable. Soldier of Fortune, hell SoF2 looks very gritty.


Kingpin definitely (a Xatrix/Gray Matter trademark it seems), SoF maybe, SoF 2 no way (not yeat at least).
Actually, it's funny you should mention that last game because I remember a discussion on that very topic over in the SoF 2 forum a couple of weeks ago and I wan't the only one to use terms such as "clinical" and "antiseptic" when desribing the look of that game's screenshots.
I see a big similarity between the two Raven games in this respect, both seem to feature high quality weapon designs, decidedly above average player (enemy) models, but very sparse and 'clean' environments.
This more or less made sense for Elite Force, but I wouldn't want JKO to have the same look if it can be helped (this is one of my worries, that the game will feel like an EF mod - I hope Raven will do what it can to avoid that).

Unreal looks so cartoony. Dues Ex was a decently "gritty" game. But i cant think of much else that had the dirty feel.


On the contrary, Unreal looks sharp, vibrant and 'realistic' compared to Quake 2 (its closest id rival at the time) with its relatively blurry and fuzzy textures and drab orange/brown colour palette.

madrebel
11-28-2001, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by X-Vector:
<STRONG>

On the contrary, Unreal looks sharp, vibrant and 'realistic' compared to Quake 2 (its closest id rival at the time) with its relatively blurry and fuzzy textures and drab orange/brown colour palette.</STRONG>

well, let me say something i neglected. Q2 had great......brown....graphics :) i never liked q2 graphics.
But saying unreal looked more "realistic" i cant agree with that. I mean any game that features a gun whos slogan should be "when you absolutely have to cut off your own head right now" (the ripper claw bouncy blade gun rmemeber? :)) should never have the word "realistic" anywhere near it :).

also anyone who uses duke "taking" forever in an argument is automatically docked 5 argument point :)

jipe
11-28-2001, 09:47 PM
ya right, JED is by far the worst map editor I have ever used
I never learned it after trying FOREVER

I learned and made my first UT lvl within 2 weeks of playing with UnrealED

Same thing with Worldcraft (Half-Life)

No map editor, least of all JED, can compensate for incompetence.. and as I said before, brush editing is much more intuitive. It's a lot easier going from negative space to brushes, rather than the other way around.

X-Vector
11-28-2001, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by madrebel:
<STRONG>But saying unreal looked more "realistic" i cant agree with that. I mean any game that features a gun whos slogan should be "when you absolutely have to cut off your own head right now" (the ripper claw bouncy blade gun rmemeber? :)) should never have the word "realistic" anywhere near it :).
</STRONG>

I think it should be pretty obvious I wasn't using the word 'realistic' in that way, it was merely a way of describing the difference in visual splendour between the two games.

About that DNF remark, he who laughs last laughs best and I'm absolutely sure I will be the one laughing last.

Kwup
11-28-2001, 09:51 PM
ya so what will be out first?

Team Fortress 2 or Duke Nukem Forever? :p

madrebel
11-29-2001, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by X-Vector:
<STRONG>

I think it should be pretty obvious I wasn't using the word 'realistic' in that way, it was merely a way of describing the difference in visual splendour between the two games.

About that DNF remark, he who laughs last laughs best and I'm absolutely sure I will be the one laughing last.</STRONG>

hehe i didnt say duke wouldnt be a good game.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............................. .................................................. ..when it comes out.

Sifl
11-29-2001, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by CaptainRAVE:
<STRONG>I personally think they should have waited and brought JK2 out on the Quake 4 engine, at least that way it would be able to stand up against the likes of Unreal 2 and Max Payne.</STRONG>

Um, are you nuts? Max Payne looked about the same as Half-Life, to me...

Wait for Quake 4? Raven is doing Quake 4, and they're already working on 2 projects, so they probably haven't even started Quake 4! And they can't start Quake 4 until Doom 3 is done, which means at least another year. Then Quake 4 takes two years after that... then Jedi Knight 2 would take a year or two after that. Are you really saying that they should have waited until 2006 to release Jedi Knight 2 just so you can get a few more polys? And you know what, if they did, you'd be saying they should have waited for Doom 5.

Please, people really need to get over this silly tendancy to think that the next big thing is always better. I'd rather have a good game now that's fun than wait 5 years for a game that's got no gameplay because all their time was spent on new technology.

No offense, CaptainRAVE, just a pet peeve of mine.

Sifl
11-29-2001, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by CaptainRAVE:
<STRONG>Actually Max Paynes specs will be higher than JK2. Remember Max Payne uses a newer engine than the Quake 3 one.

...just about run it best graphics.</STRONG>

Just because it's newer doesn't mean it's better. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Max Payne had extremely low-poly environments and had *nothing at all* that Q3 didn't have. And Q3 has multiplayer. Just because it doesn't run as well as Q3 on your machine doesn't mean it's a better engine, it means it's a *worse* engine.

Sifl
11-29-2001, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by RaoK:
<STRONG>now lets do a REAL comparison...

nobody, and I mean nobody can say JKII is #1 in the visuals department, so I sure hope it out performs U2 in the gameplay area or we have a sleeper here.</STRONG>

Here we go again... Unreal II has been in development longer than JK2. And you purposely chose the worst-looking JK2 screenshot you could find. That level is obviously unfinished.

For all we know, Unreal 2 could turn into Duke Nukem Forever or Prey or Daikatana or Team Fortress 2 and not come out for many years to come.

And, besides (do I have to say it again?) who really cares? Unreal II will look like crap compared to games released a year or two after it, but does that mean it's not worth playing and that you won't buy it?

Sifl
11-29-2001, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by StormHammer:
<STRONG>If Raven can deliver an SP game with a strong story, and 20+ hours of varied and challenging gameplay, with lots of choices in how to play, and a great MP to boot, I think it will stand the test of time like it's predecessor. ;)</STRONG>

Exactly... how many people here remember that, when the original JK came out, it's graphics were terrible compared to other games of the time (like Quake 2 and Unreal), yet it was game of the year for its gameplay. And maybe there's a reason for that... the more time you spend on new technology and making the game look beutiful, the less time you have to make sure the game is fun.

Celestial
11-29-2001, 05:18 AM
Focus on gameplay not pretty map graphics. Those are only a plus.

Dante
11-29-2001, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by RaoK:
<STRONG>...unreal engine > q3 engine

many will dispute that, but I stand by my decision. why is that you say? because I'm a biased jerk who likes arguing, why else?

anyways, I believe that the Dark Age of Camelot engine is better, thousands of people, great graphics, not as fast but just as good or better

or what about the Tribes 2 engine? sure T2 sucked and Dynamix didn't do a good job with their engine, but you gotta admit 64 people at one time with little net lag = good</STRONG>

im sure you've heard enough about the unreal and camelot engines...the T2 engine is the worst ive come across...have you seen the system specs for that beast?!? its not practical for a SP FPS...with losts of detail and wanting to appeal to a mass market...not everyone has a ninja pc...so your argument to a lil faulty...give me an engine that everyone can use or play with near enough no probs...

X-Vector
11-29-2001, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Sifl:
<STRONG>Um, are you nuts? Max Payne looked about the same as Half-Life, to me...
</STRONG>

It sure looks to me that *you* are the strange one in this discussion.
I've played bits of both Half-Life and Max Payne this week and to say that MP isn't far above HL in the visual department is incomprehensible.
In fact, when I played MP for the first time and came across the laboratory part (the one that is rigged with explosives) where I saw the white coat scientists I wondered how cool it would be if Half-Life looked that good.
Make no mistake, I acknowledge that HL is the far superior game overall and that perhaps for its time it was even more visually impressive (its world design is phenomenal IMO, just like that of JK mostly is), but it just isn't able to compete head to head with the top of the range current generation MP engine.

Just because it doesn't run as well as Q3 on your machine doesn't mean it's a better engine, it means it's a *worse* engine.


It would be, if Max Payne's visuals were worse or at best on a par with those of vanilla Q3, but they aren't.
One other thing to take into account, people that say Q3 runs well on their machines will have either pretty powerful PCs or don't run the game at maximum quality, you'll need a 64MB video card to achieve good framerates at 32-bit colour depth and with max texture detail.
RTCW and even Elite Force have substantially higher system demands than Q3 BTW, it would be better to compare Max Payne's (and JKO's) performance to those games I'd say.

Kwup
11-29-2001, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Dante:
<STRONG>

the T2 engine is the worst ive come across...have you seen the system specs for that beast?!? </STRONG>

umm on my PII 400 Mhz 128 Mb RAM w/ VOODOO 3!

the game ran at 25-35 fps with 32+ people

besides, I said that Dynamix didn't use the engine properly

Agen
11-29-2001, 03:53 PM
I have never played T2 (and probably never will) is it any good. i saw it in the shops and it looked ok and it was quite cheap (12.99) so i thoguht i might ask yous how it is?
I am offended by your crossing out of THE spoon and u shall be suffering eternal torture due to ur inscolence to THE SPOON

CaptainRAVE
11-29-2001, 04:14 PM
Whats T2??

Agen
11-29-2001, 04:20 PM
apart from Terminator 2 it means Tribes 2

Kurgan
11-29-2001, 05:21 PM
Wow this is getting to be a long thread... I don't check it for awhile and look what happens!

Well, enjoy, just don't get too carried away. Keep it civil. ; )

Kurgan

Agen
11-29-2001, 05:39 PM
Yeh unexpected eh? i thought this thread would be completely unintersting.
I think the only game that we can compare to jk2 properly would be Sof2 because it's also q3 engine.

Ok so here goes....
http://www.jediknightii.net/screenshots/screen022.jpg

and

http://www.jediknightii.net/screenshots/screen024.jpg


VERSUS

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/screenshots_library/dir_65/vortal_pic_32575.jpg

and

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/screenshots_library/dir_65/vortal_pic_32589.jpg

Place your bets now.. once again it seems jko sems more stratagetic ( if u look ato ther shots) and Sof2 seems more die u Fother Muckers!!!
Graphical wise Sof2 comes out best in osme while jk2 coems out better than othero nes in Sof2...
Choose.
I'll tell u what i choose in a while

Kwup
11-29-2001, 05:58 PM
DO NOT BUY TRIBES 2!

it sucks

Agen
11-29-2001, 06:04 PM
Ok cool the beans... i find your anti-spoon prtest offensive...
I will ahve my revenge :mad:
:cool:

Kwup
11-29-2001, 06:06 PM
I'll take away my spoon pic if you remove your monkey one

Celestial
11-29-2001, 06:18 PM
Ahhh, I just love false speculation. Now I know what Dynamix had to deal with over at www.tribalwar.com (http://www.tribalwar.com) when T2 was first released.

I met with the DEV team and Sierra, and believe me it is not the T2 engine. There were a ton of mistakes made by the DEV team from the old to the new. A few of those stories I cannot share but what I can tell you is that its not the engine. Personally, I did not like Tribes 2 either, however just because I don't like it doesnt mean its not good. Those are opinions and only opinions.

Quake 3 engine is being heavily modified by Raven, so its not like its the original one. Okay I'm talking to much...

nuff said.

CaptainRAVE
11-29-2001, 07:10 PM
Even if people think the graphics of JK2 arent as good as other games (by the way, I think their the best at the moment).....you only have to look at this screenshot
http://www.jediknightii.net/screenshots/screen020.jpg

which shows the distance at which levels are rendered, thanks to the advanced Quake 3 engine. This will be one of the main reasons why the specs of the game will be so high. I also like the lighting affects on this picture......and people on these forums say there isnt enough detail to the levels :rolleyes: . Also, a lot of these screenshots dont seem to be at high resolutions (just look at the HUD to realise that).......their only at 640 x 480.

Kwup
11-29-2001, 07:15 PM
I still dont see what your talking about in that pic, it looks good yes, but not the "throwdown your towels because we are win" kinda material

http://www.unreal2.com/images-dynamic/shot2_lores.jpg

now THAT is impressive

Agen
11-29-2001, 07:19 PM
OMG i jsut realised that. imagien hwat they'll be like at 1024x***(*)... they'll be amazing!
Ok if u take away your anti spoon i'll take away my flaming monkey.
Deal?
Sof2 screens are at high which means jk2 could very well be the same or even better!

Agen
11-29-2001, 07:27 PM
not meaning this to be like spam but

now THAT is impressive


Now THAT is a cutscene.
and the other message i jsut realiesed that the jk2 pic that was 640 not talking abotu that unreal 2 one

X-Vector
11-29-2001, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by CaptainRAVE:
<STRONG>you only have to look at this screenshot [...]
which shows the distance at which levels are rendered, thanks to the advanced Quake 3 engine.
</STRONG>

What distance?
Have you ever played Unreal?
I just revisited that game (first time I've played it in 4 months) and the scale on the Bluff Eversmoking level is gigantic, that JKO pic absolutely pales in comparison.
One fairly sizable shaft (which looks taller than it is because the player faces upwards) does not Summer make.
Jedi Knight was known for its vertigo inducing depths and heights, which is a tough quality for Raven to live up to.
Believe me, I do hope they will get it right, but that screenshot is not proof to me.

and people on these forums say there isnt enough detail to the levels :rolleyes: .


There isn't, you're probably just fooled by the repetitive texture on the shaft walls in this case.
I have to admit though, things are looking better than they did before (this screenshot being one of the highlights, despite my criticism), so I still have hope it'll all turn out fine in the end.
I think it's just important to not get your hopes up too high, you're bound to get disappointed if you expect next gen (Unreal2-ish) visuals.

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: X-Vector ]

CaptainRAVE
11-29-2001, 07:37 PM
Yea, can you imagine with high resolutions :).....also that is not an actual game shot, but a launch shot when the game was first announced, indeed it looks nice, but i have seen some really bad screenshots of the actual game......I might be a total Unreal fan, but im wondering what the final product will actually be like....also we're expecting long delays on it, the dates have already been put back and the game isnt even near the end of development. That kind of thing is only supposed to happen the day the game is supposed to hit the shelves.

madrebel
11-29-2001, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Celestial:
<STRONG>Ahhh, I just love false speculation. Now I know what Dynamix had to deal with over at www.tribalwar.com (http://www.tribalwar.com) when T2 was first released.

I met with the DEV team and Sierra, and believe me it is not the T2 engine. There were a ton of mistakes made by the DEV team from the old to the new. A few of those stories I cannot share but what I can tell you is that its not the engine. Personally, I did not like Tribes 2 either, however just because I don't like it doesnt mean its not good. Those are opinions and only opinions.

Quake 3 engine is being heavily modified by Raven, so its not like its the original one. Okay I'm talking to much...

nuff said.</STRONG>


i dont think anyone said the tribes2 engine sucks. I did say however that the tribes2 engine, more specifically the map editor doesnt do indoor levels well. In order to do custom indoor levels you have to create those in wordlcraft and then convert them for the t2 editor.

The T2 engine does have problems. Dynamix has "magic PCs" that they use to play this gmae on. On their "magic pcs" they get great performance but on real world PC we all get bad performance. The tribes 2 dev team took a game that wasnt broken gameplay wise and totally destroyed it. Any smack throw at them from tribalwar.com was all deserved. Its like raven taking jk2 and totally screwing up and or removing the force powers. Or removing the saber. You just dont screw with gameplay when its perfect.

Again though, the T2 engine is very capable. Its just dynamix made some horrible mistakes(dave G is a *** i hope he rots in hell) and sierra didnt help by pushing the game out the door early.

Agen
11-29-2001, 08:33 PM
Yeh iamgine it on high resolution and do u notice that kyle is acutally realisticly (i've never seen it before) holding the saber. it's as if he IS real. the arm is not bent in a game way but as if it's an acutal photo. his arm is always bent in all the star wars games i've ever seen (or swords for that matter)
And BTW that is much much better than ut's enviroments.
and di u acutally notice that the grass is repetitive in sectors. aobut 4 in that shot

Kwup
11-29-2001, 08:37 PM
umm....that is not a cutscene

http://www.unreal2.com/images-dynamic/CGImage02-640.jpg

http://www.unreal2.com/images-dynamic/CGImage05-640.jpg

http://www.unreal2.com/images-dynamic/E3Shot02-640.jpg

http://www.unreal2.com/images-dynamic/E3Shot03-640.jpg

these shots show a variety of things, but my point is to show the different areas the game is placed in, and the always new textures. half the JKII textures are gray, that = boring to me and many others

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: RaoK ]

Agen
11-29-2001, 08:50 PM
Well apart from there being no hud no gun not looking otu of anything i'll let Rave explain the rest of the things

Kwup
11-29-2001, 08:53 PM
these are taken from a very early version of U2...

they were released over 6 months ago too

Agen
11-29-2001, 09:20 PM
Ok i'm gonna put up a picture and show that u2 isn't perfect.

StormHammer
11-29-2001, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Agen_Terminator:
Now THAT is a cutscene.

No it isn't. Nor are the others RaoK posted. I've been following Unreal II's development since before those shots were released, and watched the Unreal tech vids that preceded them.

The Unreal engine is very good at allowing vertical as well as horizontal scale. Just run off the cliff at Nyleve's Falls in the original Unreal to get an idea...(if you hit the water, you don't get killed either) ;)

No offence to Raven, but I think the newest build of the Unreal engine would have been better for building the levels...but then, we might not have all that other cool Raven tech that is going to make JK2 a great game. ;)

Originally posted by X-Vector:
Jedi Knight was known for its vertigo inducing depths and heights, which is a tough quality for Raven to live up to.

Yes, but remember that LEC cheated in a way with some of those drops, by setting the textures and lights to black at the bottom...so many of the bottomless shafts were not as deep as they seemed. ;)

I do get your point, though. There were many very vertical parts to JK's levels, although I think there was a trade-off between horizontal size and vertical size. The black shafts in JK seemed to be more prevalent in the levels with a larger horizontal scale. I can see a similar thing happening with the modified Q3:TA engine. :)

Agen
11-29-2001, 09:54 PM
I have pretty strong points here a i'm not the one that created this pic ( i put in the writing but not the cicles. I got this off a a german q3 board a long while ago. Anti U2 people i think.. dunno anyway here it is
http://www.geocities.com/pterminator2k/proffpicu2.jpeg
You've got to copy and paste into browser then when u coem back it will show (dunno why)

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: Agen_Terminator ]

madrebel
11-29-2001, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by StormHammer:
<STRONG>

Yes, but remember that LEC cheated in a way with some of those drops, by setting the textures and lights to black at the bottom...so many of the bottomless shafts were not as deep as they seemed. ;)

I do get your point, though. There were many very vertical parts to JK's levels, although I think there was a trade-off between horizontal size and vertical size. The black shafts in JK seemed to be more prevalent in the levels with a larger horizontal scale. I can see a similar thing happening with the modified Q3:TA engine. :)</STRONG>


what he said. didnt anyone else have the toggleable fly cog? Those chasm werent that deep. Good slight of hand that looked the part. but not real.

Raven uses iD tech because they are familiar with it. they can churn out games quickly with tech they are used to working with.

Kwup
11-29-2001, 10:24 PM
hmm....I see awesome looking fire, with the light reflecting off the floor, the red light is the result of glare, the big rock is a mystery and the gray is hardly the focus of the level. Besides, I showed you like 5 screens of images with barely and gray in them


http://banbu.8m.com/blah.jpg

have fun

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: RaoK ]

madrebel
11-29-2001, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by RaoK:
<STRONG>hmm....I see awesome looking fire, with the light reflecting off the floor, the red light is the result of glare, the big rock is a mystery and the gray is hardly the focus of the level. Besides, I showed you like 5 screens of images with barely and gray in them

http://banbu.8m.com/blah.jpg

have fun

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: RaoK ]</STRONG>

and when did the imperial facilities switch from "evil gray (tm)" to "martha stewarts fortress of style"?

the emipre is drab. Its is black gray white and red. That is all. Granted any out door environments can be whatever the artists want. But in order to be accurate to the star wars history you need to look the part.

Q3 engine is going on 2 years old.

U2 engine is.....oh wait it hasnt even been officially released :rolleyes:

wtf is the debate over?

ill bet my dollars to your cents that JKO has better gameplay. Unreal anything has never had good gameplay.

Kwup
11-29-2001, 10:48 PM
jeez, I wish I could see locals with white and red, that would be great....or maybe a logo or anything!

and btw, thx for clearing up the topic about q3 engine > u2 :)

madrebel
11-29-2001, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by RaoK:
<STRONG>jeez, I wish I could see locals with white and red, that would be great....or maybe a logo or anything!

and btw, thx for clearing up the topic about q3 engine > u2 :)</STRONG>


ok here is the debate winner

Q3 engine = out NOW

U2 as far as we know is vapor ware. there isnt a 1000% garuntee that U2 will acctually be released because right now its not even beta. what if a bomb blows up their studio?

now you and i both know it will be(i played the alpha leak). but RIGHT NOW you cant consider something in development better than something that is OUT NOW.

so there. Q3 > U2 cause its availible

and IMO doom3 > U2

Kwup
11-29-2001, 10:58 PM
you played the alpha leak?

even tho it was a video?

hmm...

madrebel
11-29-2001, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by RaoK:
<STRONG>you played the alpha leak?

even tho it was a video?

hmm...</STRONG>
hehe its wasnt "just a video" had to do some tweaking of the unreal.ini to get it to play. its was only one lvl and you could tell it wasnt close to a game and specifically for demonstration....but yeah i had it...deleted it though since it wasnt worth hangin on to

Kwup
11-29-2001, 11:09 PM
...

it was a video


and yes, it is 6 months old so kinda outdated...

madrebel
11-29-2001, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by RaoK:
<STRONG>...

it was a video


and yes, it is 6 months old so kinda outdated...</STRONG>


well that was one very playable video :)

Kwup
11-29-2001, 11:17 PM
*cough*

someone went to the show, recorded the video off the TV screen with a "secret recorder" that wasn't supposed to be there, and distributed it on the net

unless you played the player made lvl that looks like the lvl on display

madrebel
11-29-2001, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by RaoK:
<STRONG>*cough*

someone went to the show, recorded the video off the TV screen with a "secret recorder" that wasn't supposed to be there, and distributed it on the net

unless you played the player made lvl that looks like the lvl on display</STRONG>

no i played the alpha leak of that demo that was shown. there was a big stink about it. the legend dev guys were threatening law suits. it was only in the warez channels for a few days and then it dried up quickly.

Kwup
11-29-2001, 11:31 PM
you still dont have me convinced :p

madrebel
11-29-2001, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by RaoK:
<STRONG>you still dont have me convinced :p</STRONG>


hehe that wasnt my intention. my intention was to show that progress is being made on U2.

still Q3 > U2 because its availible now :)

Kwup
11-30-2001, 12:37 AM
I dunno why, but this song (http://www.vgmusic.com/music/console/sony/ps1/mgs-Encounter-rv2.mid)
always makes me feel like I should reach out and frag someone

P.S. put a space after the URL and it will work fine

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: RaoK ]

sanpilou
11-30-2001, 12:40 AM
what the.... is that song????? :confused:

Kwup
11-30-2001, 12:42 AM
er....that sound I guess?

dunno what to call it

Sounds Risky
11-30-2001, 12:48 AM
Dude, that's from Metal Gear Solid!

:)

sanpilou
11-30-2001, 12:49 AM
metal.....gear....solid....... :rolleyes:

Kwup
11-30-2001, 12:49 AM
ya, but not the 2nd one, that is the only thing I dont like about it :(

that and you cant look at the girly books, you can just throw them at the guards :D

Agen
11-30-2001, 11:46 AM
Took me a second or 2 to realise that's what it was.... hehe that's 1 damn good song/tune.
Still Duke comeso ut best

Agen
11-30-2001, 11:58 AM
Yeh thats all very well but duke nukem theme is better (this is N64 not the 3d one on pc which is better)
Duke theme (http://www.geocities.com/kooch_65/jukebox/mj4.html)
Well it is in mp opinion anyway

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Agen_Terminator ]

CaptainRAVE
11-30-2001, 04:20 PM
Am i the only one here who hates Duke Nukem??

Kwup
11-30-2001, 04:27 PM
I got two things to say...


1) That music sucks

and

2) Sorry, but Duke sucks too

Lion Heart
11-30-2001, 07:05 PM
I would love to get Metel Gear Solid but since I heard it had nudity and the fact that I have a little brother in the house, I dont think it would go well together.

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Lion Heart ]

Kwup
11-30-2001, 07:10 PM
umm....no game on any console released in the U.S. has any sort of nudity.

the closest thing is a couple of girls in swimsuits, but that is like in 1 part of the game, and you dont even have to look at it

CaptainRAVE
11-30-2001, 07:36 PM
Im glad someone agrees with me that Duke Nukem SUCKS :).......no offence to anyone who likes it, just my opinion

Cartman's Dad
11-30-2001, 08:06 PM
What's all tyhis. The game sucked. Duke Kick's ass. :)

Kwup
11-30-2001, 08:07 PM
Duke = streotype, just like Lara Croft. anyone who likes that crap is either horny or PO'ed alot.

X-Vector
11-30-2001, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by RaoK:
<STRONG>Duke = streotype, just like Lara Croft. anyone who likes that crap is either horny or PO'ed alot.
</STRONG>

Can't I be both at the same time?

Seriously, if you think that people that like Duke3D (the game) and are looking forward to its successor Duke Nukem Forever are all puberescent wannabe machos, you're sadly mistaken.
But then again I shouldn't expect some lonely scifi nerd that habitually 'spanks his monkey' over the Princess Leia poster his mother bought him for his birthday to know any better, right?

Kwup
11-30-2001, 08:24 PM
er I diss SW just about every other post aI make, and you think I'm a live at home snake wanker?

and I am not saying Duke cant be a good game, but the charactor duke is pretty dumb, just a pervert who blows aliens up != a good story

that's like saying you get playboy because of the articles

Agen
11-30-2001, 08:49 PM
Well it's some idol..... I mean a guy that goes aroudn saving chicks, looknig at tits, kills aliens and saves the world = cash cow with style.
He uses guns too

Kwup
11-30-2001, 09:01 PM
he dont got nothing on her

http://www.unreal2.com/images-dynamic/CGImage01-640.jpg

Agen
11-30-2001, 09:08 PM
Was there any point on posting that?

DeathBoLT
11-30-2001, 09:15 PM
do you really need a reason? ;)

Agen
11-30-2001, 09:35 PM
well then i have no reason for posting this....
http://doom3.gamingfiles.com/Screenshots/1/Image2.jpg

PissedJedi
11-30-2001, 09:46 PM
isn't unreal 2 a single player only title?

While JK2 offers both single and multiplayer.

As far as gameplay goes the difference is simple. I can't wield a sabre in Unreal 2 or use Force powers. End of story.

Unreal 2 is a pure action title.

JK2 is an action/fantasty title which will have a developed story based on a huge background it can draw on.

What developed story does U2 have to draw on?
none.

If I was only interested in graphics period.. well heh U2 wouldn't even be listed.. and many people would be worried more about a game like Halo for the pc.

Its like saying that tekken is a better fighting game series over the street fighter series because it has better graphics.

Ignoring the reason why Street fighter endures to this very day.

Your obviously a troll indisguise. And posting that pic from unreal 2 of the girl PRoves it.. She doesn't look that good. And if your going to Spooge over computer graphics.. this pic far outshines that..

http://temoto.co.uk/aki/images/col1.jpg

now your going to say thats a movie its unfair.. Well listen bud The movie had the BEST BEST BEST EVER computer produced graphics EVER SEEn.. and it Flopped.

And its something you gotta understand.. Graphics do not Make the Game. They are part of the whole process in making a great entertainment experience whether it be a game or an animated movie.

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: PissedJedi ]

Agen
11-30-2001, 09:55 PM
So ur sober now.. welcome back!

madrebel
11-30-2001, 10:28 PM
whats wrong with being a pimp dady mack? whats wrong with shooting big guns? whats wrong with funny one liners? whats wrong with killing aliens?

really youre all a bit to politically correct and down right feminin if you dont find any of those things appealing. and no i dont mean you should be a womanizing player having one girl is important IMO...oh wtf am i justifying to any of you. that **** is cool loosen up already.

still dont think duke forever will ever see the light of day though *shrug*

Agen
11-30-2001, 10:32 PM
And now to truly follow up this topic that is completely off topic is a picture of my room!
http://www.geocities.com/pterminator2k/017_14A.JPeG

Dante
11-30-2001, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Agen_Terminator:
<STRONG>And now to truly follow up this topic that is completely off topic is a picture of my room!
http://www.geocities.com/pterminator2k/017_14A.JPeG </STRONG>

lol...and besides i bet you played serious sam...and watched all the evil dead films...so dude quit having a door knob stuck up your *** and join the rest of us mere mortals...trust me you'll feel much better...

Kwup
11-30-2001, 11:41 PM
the reason I posted that pic was to say that Duke nukem isn't exactly everyone's pimp, she could kick his ass, nothing to do with graphix.

and btw, terminator, I think you need to get a girl dude

PissedJedi
12-01-2001, 02:11 AM
as far as gameplay goes I doubt very highly that unreal 2 will even have a tenth of the interactivity that duke forever will have. Even using an older engine.

I like how you ignored my post and didn't refute what I said. Truth is too much to bare I guess.

StormHammer
12-01-2001, 02:12 AM
Sheesh...I'm away for a little while (24 hours), and this happens. This thread is so far off topic it's in the boondocks.

And I'm sad to say, it is now closed until I can clear it up.

Tut tut. :rolleyes: