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SlowbieOne
11-09-2001, 08:40 PM
I recall someone on these forums saying in the December issue of PC Gamer, there are pictures that indicate that the thermal detonator explosions, are just as small as in the original JK. I can't remember who posted this or what thread it was. :(

Anyway, I suspect something called a thermal detonator would give off quite a blast, as opposed to some blast that is quite frankly, ineffective. Don't get me wrong, I HAVE killed people with them, and it CAN be done, but you had to hit them with about 4-5 to do the job, assuming they have full health. I found this very annoying.

What Lucasarts is saying, is in Return of the Jedi, when Leia was threatening Jabba with that thermal, he acted like it would have blown the whole place to bits. And according to JK, it would've barely scratched Jabba at his size! :)

I would make the thermals have a range of at least a 10 foot radius. Especially since LA announced the thermals can be deflected with the saber.

I don't know if it's just me, but I expect more from a thermal detonator. If Raven doesn't balance out these factors, I'm afraid the T.D.'s will just take a back seat once again and do what they did best for all of us JK'ers: COLLECT DUST

StormHammer
11-09-2001, 09:44 PM
I used to use the TDs frequently in SP...especially in the secondary fire mode. They were useful for bouncing around corners, or dropping down shafts. The sound used to attract the Stormies, and the blast killed them.

I don't remember having to hit them 4-5 times with a TD...just 1 usually did the trick if my aim was good enough...and it did kill more than one enemy if they were grouped close enough together.

I do agree that they were not as powerful as originally suggested in ROTJ...however, the danger is to make them too powerful, like a room clearing device...and that might reduce the fun factor.

I mean, to have the destructive power to knock down Jabba's Palace, you are really talking about a weapon similar to the Redeemer in UT...and personally I thought that weapon was far too powerful.

So yes, by all means make the TDs a bit more powerful...but not so that it hurts the gameplay.

Also, on the subject of thrown devices, I wouldn't mind seeing some more variation. We had the flash grenades in MotS...why not introduce something like an EMP or Ion Pulse grenade, or a Smoker to give you cover?

JediKnight_114[b]
11-09-2001, 11:06 PM
In JK, it took 2 TDs to kill one enemy with full health even with a direct hit. That is, playing on hard.

If you read the book "Star by Star" they use TDs an awful lot, and I think they were portrayed very realisticly well. They vaped anything in their blast radius, then sucked all the energy back to the center of the blast zone, leaving everything outside the radius untouched. Then, if they had a 10 foot radius in the game, get it close to your target, and they're toast. Outside the radius, it's a miss. That would make it easy to get the hang of and make it a good explosive that is actually usefull for killing rather than JKs which were good stunners unless you had time to throw two.

Millions o' Monkeys
11-10-2001, 12:26 AM
i dont believe they need a bigger blast radius that would be fairly stupid, Becaue im expecting JK2 to have shrapnel, so that would get rid of the need for a blast radius.

If the TD was about the same as the grenade in Max Payne that would be perfect.

cossack1812
11-10-2001, 12:36 AM
Deflecting TDs? :confused:
Wouldn't that set them off, right in your face?

Jedi Howell
11-10-2001, 02:20 AM
'deflecting w/ lightsaber' wasn't exactly teh best turn. i believe it would be more accurate to say that u deflected them w/ teh force.

jh

michael
11-10-2001, 09:16 AM
In the star wars story, Assault at Selonia, Leia uses her lightsaber to deflect a thermal detonator. But has anyone read shadows of the empire?(book not game) That suggessts that there many different types of detonators, and says that lando uses a class A TD. Doesnt this mean there are different classes of power in a TD? Maybe the ones in DF1 and JK1 were class z.......... ;)

Kurt Plummer
11-10-2001, 12:45 PM
The Russians have something called a 'Thermobaric' with which they've replaced the standard flame thrower.

It is actually a small, manportable, rocket like a LAW but it works by poking a hole in an object with a shaped charge and then jettisoning a small granulated powder suspended in an aerosol mist which is subsequently detonated (after impact).

This is effectively the equivalent of what we type-describe as an 'FAE' or Fuel Air Explosive with similarly deadly overpressure effects in a fairly small device.

Indeed, the Russian RPO-A 'Schmel' or Bumblebee has an area lethality effect of roughly 50m square in open terrain and about 80m CUBED in a closed volume.

Fired into a building the outward pop and subsequent inrush 'BA-WHOOMP!' of air will literally collapse a multistory structure like it was a tinker toy. (There are also RPO-Z straight up incendiary and RPO-D Smoke versions).

If you took a similar 'explosive energy binding' type technologic approach in SW (less chemical messiness, more flash and zap SFX wow factor) you could do some amazing things...

Put Another Way:

Watched a movie a few years back.

Starred Charlie Sheen I think it was, as an astronomer dude who discovers aliens have 'already arrived' and are pumping out mondo quantities of greenhouse gas from 'their secret base in Mexico' (no bean jokes please...;-) to up the temps and kill us all.

Eventually ends in one of the Very Large Array railroad antenna clusters where the Aliens, knowing they've been caught, shed their 'just like human' skins and run away like ostriches after having deployed a 'remove the evidence' weapon which rises on a hover field, deploys a 'mass anchor' that sucks everything into it and then gives you one heck of a flash-ring like effect (Aliens the Nostromo blowup) which basically /eats/ this 10-20 story tall, football-field wide, antenna dish, right down to the ground.

For JKO, an 'Inny or Outy' (implosive or explosive) yield choice would be effectively the same as current Z-mode and you could then set the POWER of the yield by holding down a 'louder whine' control to vary the amount of actual destruction done before release.

How far and hard would be selected by computer driven object distance under the crosshairs.

Such would be a _superb weapon_, IMO. If only because it would let you pass quickly through effected areas (no fires, no hull punctures), would not /necessarily/ damage fixed electronic equipment. Even as the graphics effect of Imps flying through air into a tangled ball of limbs and white hot energy would be funny as hell...;-]

The other stuff, I also back up. Smoke and Noise (flashbangs) are called DD's or 'Distraction Devices' by SWAT/SRT type folks and they are nice because they can pac a lot of broken ear drum into a very small lethality globe for when you want everybody on the floor unable to coordinate their limbs but not necessarily dead.

I frankly doubt if that would work on Imps with their protective helmets but it would surely clear a corridor through a crowd of civillians when 'another ten Gamorreans arrived' and just wanted to _get away_.

Speaking of which, one thing to keep in mind is that this is still basically just a repeat of existing technologies and visual effects with fire and smoke never appearing all that 'high tech', on-screen.

As such, I would like to also suggest the equivalent of a **masking aid** so that you could setup a small, high-density, holographic projector and wham-bam, a corridor is empty even when it's not or a wall appears contiguous even when there is a doorway (which you are hiding in) in the middle of it.

Imagine: you come huffing and puffing around a corner, 20 Imps hot on your heals, step into a doorway and...vanish. Only to take off the opposite direction when the herd goes thundering by.

Jedi don't kill when they have a choice and when badly outnumbered even /that choice/ may not be available.

And again IT WOULD LOOK SO KEWL!!:-))


Kurt Plummer


LINKS-
Russian 'Thermobaric' Weapons: Pure Nasty http://www.milparade.com/1998/26/040.htm http://www.ichkeria.org/a/2000/9/com1609-en132823.html http://www.carigroup.com/offers/01596.html http://www.mail-archive.com/msa_ec@listbot.com/msg00743.html

toms
11-13-2001, 01:19 PM
Different types of detonator would be cool. I never actually got flashbangs to work in JK, but it would be cool if they did. Smoke grenades would be cool too.
(It would actually be nice if certain enemies were immune/less affected by certain weapons. That way you would have to employ some variation in tactics.

A smoke grenade/force sight combo would be a cool way to take out enemies, but maybe stormies would be able to see through smoke, be imune to flashbangs due to their helmets. Definately explain why they wore the damn things...the armour seems totally pointless after all.

On the other hand, ion grenades would probably have no effect on most creatures, shut down droids and blind stormies as they took out their electro-senses.

HAving TDs with a power setting, that start whining when thrown and take longer to go off the more power they are set to would be cool. Imagine throwing one into a room and watching everyone run for cover...
And having some sort of 3D expanding sphere effect would be much cooler than those poor explosion bitmaps...

tomS

ps/ the best grenades in an FPS were the ALiens v predator shrapnel grenades.. that peppered the entire room with hot glowing spikes.. they rocked. (At least visually.)
anyone played AvP2 yet? they in it?

SlowbieOne
11-13-2001, 01:53 PM
I don't remember having to hit them 4-5 times with a TD...just 1 usually did the trick if my aim was good enough...and it did kill more than one enemy if they were grouped close enough together.

Sorry Stormhammer, I shouldv'e made myself more clear.

Maybe it would take 1 to the face of Stormtroopers, but in MP, it takes 2 direct hits. But when I said 4-5, I was refering to MP and hitting them with splash damage. Hitting people in MP with 2 direct hits, is no easy feat. If you are playing someone who's halfway decent anyway.

I just think 1 should be able to do the job, splash damage or direct hits.

Of course when I said I think the blast radius should be bigger, I didn't mean it should be like the Redeemer blast. That was ridiculously big. :D

What I picture is about twice as big as the original blast.

StormHammer
11-13-2001, 04:41 PM
Hey SlowbieOne...no problem. My misunderstanding. :D

I agree with your idea about the blast radius.

TomS...nice idea for a 3D expanding sphere. I'm a bit tired of the usual bitmaps too.

And you hit the nail on the head with the EMP/Ion grenade...that was how I imagined it, though I forgot to write it down. :cool: If it could disrupt terminals, droids (including Imperial Probes and Scouts), Stormie/Bounty Hunter helmets, some weapons reliant on electronic gadgetry etc., it could be quite effective.

Of course, I also forgot to mention...

Gas Grenades...for knocking out susceptible enemies. They shouldn't work on Stormies, who should have built-in air-filtration systems, of course. ;) But they could be useful against local predators, humans, and some alien species. :)

Alan
11-13-2001, 09:06 PM
In a way, I'd prefer to have very few TD's in JK2. That way it would make you have to think tactically about how to use the bigger blast radius. Would it be worth it to use a TD on 5 or 6 guys when there is possibly dozens in the next room?
On the other hand, it'd be kinda cool to be able open a door, lob in a TD, step back...
BOOM.

Philbo
11-13-2001, 09:16 PM
i think the only star wars game so far that's portrayed it right was The Phantom Menace. am i right?

SlowbieOne
11-13-2001, 10:35 PM
In TPM, not only were the blasts just as big as the Redeemer, the blasts went through walls too. :eek:

So we have thermals portrayed 2 different ways in 2 different Star Wars games.

Does this mean this time they will make it in between? :D

SlowbieOne
11-19-2001, 01:34 AM
Now that's a thermal blast!
http://jediknightii.net/screenshots/screen026.jpg

Looks like I can quiet my worries about this one. :) It looks absolutely perfect. :D

xwing guy
11-19-2001, 01:47 AM
That blast looks awesome, but wish it was bigger.

StephenG
11-19-2001, 01:48 AM
BOOM!

look at those stoomies fly!

StormHammer
11-19-2001, 02:08 AM
I like that screenshot...and I think I've just noticed something rather interesting.

Look on the floor immediately in front - there's a blast burn there...and if I'm not mistaken, blood spatters. Ooooohhhh....nice. :D

DeathBoLT
11-19-2001, 02:41 AM
RAVEN has given TDs the room clearing power they deserved all along :D

StephenG
11-19-2001, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by StormHammer:
<STRONG>I like that screenshot...and I think I've just noticed something rather interesting.

Look on the floor immediately in front - there's a blast burn there...and if I'm not mistaken, blood spatters. Ooooohhhh....nice. :D</STRONG>

it's looks more like rust to me.

aferens
11-19-2001, 02:55 AM
Hmm...did they re-use the HUD? I get a really strong feeling of Deja-vu...

Bartolo_JCS
11-19-2001, 03:53 AM
if you've played the phantom menace game, very gay game, the thermal detonators blast is humungous i dare you to toss it by your feet

GonkH8er
11-19-2001, 05:16 AM
It's rust and mold i believe...

but it kind of seems like the blast in fron tof us has left a square shaped marking that seems to not blend with the surrounding floor texture.....

A Big Fat CoW
11-19-2001, 05:16 AM
about the explosion being small in the screenshot..

i beleive that the screen is of a just-detonated thermal, seeing as the shockwave ring is bright orange, and the firey stuff still looks like its expanding. if it were at the peak fo its explosion, the ring would be dimmer, or not there at all, and the explosion wouldnt look so compact or whatever. explosions go from small, to big, to small again, so i doubt that's as big as the explosions will get. now, i could be wrong, cuz i know nearly nothing about real explosives, this is just an educated guess based on sheer logic... then again, my logic is usually flawed, soo...

cossack1812
11-19-2001, 07:24 AM
First of all a big welcome to the forums Mr Large Cow :)
*hands gift basket

Second, Gonk you must have been staring at that pic for a while to pic that up

GonkH8er
11-19-2001, 10:28 AM
You cant tell me you dont see it......... :)

C.H.A.S.
11-19-2001, 03:04 PM
Hi I'm back (not that anyone cares). I enjoyed the screenshot and the others that went with it. I'm sure the blast is enlarging and by the way the stormies fly it is powerful. It will probably be useful indoors but might also be fun in the outdoors too.

On the subject of different types of TDs I like the idea of a smoke bomb. I'm sure you could use the Force to hide yourself but if the Force is used for everything it might start to take away from gameplay.

For example: Don't you think that it would make the game more fun to have to find an item that would sheild you from sight rather then clicking a button when you force hits "30". :confused:

StormHammer
11-19-2001, 04:31 PM
C.H.A.S....welcome back to the forums. Long time no see. ;)

Gonk...I noticed that square around the blast burn too, pretty much straight away. But then, I've noticed it in other games too, and it doesn't really detract from the gameplay. ;)

Are you sure that dark green stuff is mold? It looks like it's spattered on the floor, rather than growing there. :confused:

Zekk Dawkins
11-19-2001, 10:36 PM
I agree. T.D.'s in JK are quite worthless, and in the Esential guide, T.D.'s have a primary blast range of 30 meters or something. The small, worthless T.D.'s in JK would have a devistating impact on the actual game, though. The blast desentigrates everything, including the walls and such, in the 30 meter blast bubble. That would be bad, because you would have to run FAST to get away from the bomb. :eek:

aferens
11-19-2001, 11:14 PM
TD's are best used when tossing them off a cliff. :D

GonkH8er
11-19-2001, 11:38 PM
as long as its secondary fire :)

sanpilou
11-20-2001, 12:46 AM
hey have u seen the td from the phatom menace game????? they decided to make them bigger and look at what it has done!!!!!! they are WAY too big!!!

SlowbieOne
11-20-2001, 04:57 AM
The TD's from TPM game were way too big. However, according to the screen it appears to be in between the 2, JK and TPM game I mean.

I wonder if those Stormtroopers flying will be dead when they land. Will it take just one good clean blast from a TD to take someone down? I certainly hope so, as long as the blast radius isn't too big a la Redeemer.

GonkH8er
11-20-2001, 05:08 AM
I hope the blast actually doesnt kill them each time, and some of the time they stumble back to their feet, perhaps clutching one arm and shooting innacurately towards you..... or running :)

TheDarkAngel
11-20-2001, 10:02 AM
Yeah, in JK i barely touched using Thermal Det's since they basically didn't do anything my blaster could do better. Your right about Return of The Jedi, they absolutely feared when Leia showedthem the Thermal Det. In Shadows of the Empire, They used just 3 of them down a vent to take out an entire Palace. Now, i know they cant have it that powerful for a game, but a bigger blast radius would improve it somewhat, and more damage wouldn't hurt.

Agen
11-20-2001, 02:59 PM
In JK when i ran out of blaster ammo i would chcuk a td roudn the corner and since they were dumb they woudln't have a clue....
needed about 2 though for 1 enemy with the chucking bit.
I noticed the square sort of thing but...
The REd looks like blood more than rust.. rust is orangish and as for the green it could have been moss or green blood (that would mean the ability to drag bodies though)

I hjope they fix the square sort of thing but it doesn't sort of make a difference in games where it hapopens but it looks better if they do it with a circle bitmap explosion map rather than square because it looks natural

StormHammer
11-20-2001, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by GonkH8er:
I hope the blast actually doesnt kill them each time, and some of the time they stumble back to their feet, perhaps clutching one arm and shooting innacurately towards you..... or running

I agree, Gonk...that would be great. Especially if they have pain skins showing the areas of damage. It might also be good to have them play dead, and then get up and shoot you in the back.

The other thing I would like to see with any kind of explosion in a confined area, though, is to have the fireburst come down the corridor at you. Remember the end of ROTJ with the flames licking at the Falcon? I'd like to see that in JK2...with me using Force Speed to get out of there. :D

DeathBoLT
11-20-2001, 09:33 PM
or if it takes off a leg, have them rolling there clutching the stump screaming in agony or something... :D

SlowbieOne
11-20-2001, 09:52 PM
Yes, I too hope they have different animations for different situations with the blast. I could see how someone could survive a few TD's with the splash damage, but no one should survive a TD in the face, well, maaaaybe a Jedi however unlikely.

Another thing about the TD in JK was the fact that you had to hold down the button to throw it farther and in turn, it was harder than it should've been to judge where it was going. I think it would work better if it went wherever your crosshair was. If you want to lob it, tap the button, if you want to throw a line drive hold it.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle it.