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Executor32
11-27-2001, 11:43 PM
For any Raven team members out there, is there going to be an automap feature like there was in DF/JK?

acdcfanbill
11-28-2001, 05:16 AM
i would say most likely yes...

DeathBoLT
11-28-2001, 05:25 AM
i wonder if the old force seeing + map combo that was used in JK ff strategy will be applicable in jk2...

TrUeFoRcE
11-28-2001, 05:33 AM
i think it would be cool if they put a random map generator in jk2 for multiplayer, just like the one there putting on sof2 for singleplayer (which i also think should be in multiplayer)

i think it would be great have have random maps, and also ready made maps when you play a game, especially over the internet, it mixes up the maps so that you dont get the same maps over and over hint oasis hint.....

DeathBoLT
11-28-2001, 05:39 AM
well most people played oasis due to its superb design... i know alot dislike it due to its having been played into the ground..

it'd be cool tho, and it would force people to develop tatics that don't end up being totally based on a map... just unfeasible at present :(

StormHammer
11-28-2001, 08:15 AM
Welcome to the forums, Executor.

Here, have this...

*hands over a chocolate Jedi Medallion*

There you go. ;)

That's a good question about the automap. Although there are no details or confirmation as yet, I would also suspect that it would be in the game in some form.

Personally, I'd hope for an automap that shows some solid or transparent wall textures, so you can easily tell which part of the map you are looking at. Daggerfall managed this, and it worked quite well - even gave you the chance to fly around the parts of the level you had already visited, and set markers to show the locations of specific items.

Something like that in JK2 would be grand. ;)

CaptainRAVE
11-28-2001, 11:08 AM
I would have thought is was a definate feature to include in JK2.....all the good features of JK will be added, and all the semi good ones will be improved :)

toms
11-28-2001, 02:33 PM
er... wasn't daggerfall notorious for having like the WORST map function of any game ever?? as far as i can remember no body could ever find there way back out of the dungeons ;)

certainly a big topic on the Morrowind discusion boards has been the inclusion of a good automap this time...

why do you guys think it is likely there will be an automap? i think the last game i played with an automap was JK? i certainly haven't seen one in any games based on the quake engines... although it is totally possible i have jsut missed them.

did elite force have an automap? wolfenstien2?

StormHammer
11-28-2001, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by TomS:
er... wasn't daggerfall notorious for having like the WORST map function of any game ever?? as far as i can remember no body could ever find there way back out of the dungeons ;)

LOL :D

Yeah, I didn't say it wasn't flawed. ;)

I think the main problem with Daggerfall was the dungeons were randomly generated, and they kept using the same textures and designs all over the place. It was very easy to get lost...which is one of the reasons why I stopped playing it. :(

KISS Army
11-28-2001, 07:07 PM
I don't think dynamic updating maps (automaps) work very well with the Quake III: Team Arena engine. I don't recall any Q3 engine game having any sort of map feature.

StormHammer
11-28-2001, 07:11 PM
Yeah, KISS Army, I believe you're right.

Of course, there's always a first time. ;)

Welcome to the forums, and enjoy your stay. Here...

*hands over a chocolate Jedi Medallion*

There you go. ;)

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: StormHammer ]

CaptainRAVE
11-28-2001, 07:16 PM
Two posts by a moderator...lol.....actually there are so many members now we cant keep up giving them the welocome basket etc...lol

CaptainRAVE
11-28-2001, 07:25 PM
Sorry bout double posting....eating my words......but i thought this was MORE IMPORTANT, if he is member 735, then why does it say on the forums that the last memeber to register is 733 Pier, or is it just my computer????????

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainRAVE ]

StormHammer
11-28-2001, 07:34 PM
Hmmm...odd. Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Rave. ;)

It also seems I have fumble fingers tonight. ;)

And I don't do baskets. :D

Vagabond
11-28-2001, 07:39 PM
One would sincerely hope that JKII has some satisfactory map implementation. Since the Q3 engine is already being "heavily modified", then perhaps beefing up the mapping capability is in the cards too :cool:

KISS Army
11-28-2001, 09:51 PM
What is the advantage of having an auto-map if the levels are well designed so as not to get the player lost?

If the auto-map isn't needed for gameplay reasons, would you still want one?

DeathBoLT
11-28-2001, 10:11 PM
in jk, if u had the overlay map on whilst using force seeing, you could see your opponents location

although i could live with or live without equally well regarding this particular game play aspect

toms
11-29-2001, 02:11 PM
without an automap you do seem to end up with the sort of level design that means you HAVE to take a single route through a level. (And all other routes are blocked off..like the 2000 doors you couldn't open in NOLF)
which is annoying.

alternatives would be having force seeing bring up some sort of radar/motion tracker overlay.
or making it make nearby walls transparent.
or making it put decals on walls if there was an enemy behnd them.

BTW... if any of the above are implemented then i hope they make it possible to shoot through certain surfaces... they had this in NOLF (though underused) and it was cool. It would be great to sneak up on a bad guy and then slice him up through a curtain, or a thin sheet metal wall...

Kurgan
11-29-2001, 02:59 PM
Automap is like secondary fire, so far all the games in the Dark Forces series have had it, and benefited from it. The fans will EXPECT it. Removing it feels like going backwards...

Not to nitpick, but the automap feature in JK had nothing at all to do with random sequences of MP maps, or randomly BUILT maps (ie: random terrain). It instead referred to the vector overlay map that showed your current position in the SP/MP level. Combined with force seeing (varying depending on the force level) it could also reveal the location of laid mines, pickup items, and enemy/friendly characters. AI characters, enemies were shown with different colored (and sized) icons. Also in teamplay mode, each team had their own colored icons. Each one was a circle with a straight line coming out of one side (showing which way the character was facing).

Some people even max zoomed the overlay map to give them a makeshift 3rd person "crosshair." ; )

There was another automap feature that I figure was used a lot less (at least in MP, since it required you to spend time in the menus, thus not being able to make sure somebody didn't kill you while you used it) was in the menu and it gave you a full vector based 3d rendering of the entire level, that you could zoom, rotate, etc. Dark Forces had one like this, except it was an overhead view (much like the overlay map, only bigger, plus you could view each floor by itself). In JK the overlay map only showed the current floor, while the others were "faded out."

Whenever I talk about "automap" in the Dark Forces series, that's what I refer to. I hope it makes it into JK2 as well.

It was a great feature for showing where you'd been, where you had to go, etc and plus it was tactically advantageous to use it with Force seeing. Made a lot of sense.

Another thing that I hope they don't do, is leave out the "Status loading" progress bars that JK had. I hate it that most FPS games nowadays just have a simple "loading..." text maybe an animated gif like in the case of AvP2, but no way of knowing how much time you have left to wait. With the higher end games requiring faster hardware, some of us may have to wait a long time, this just helps make it more bearable. Since it's not a default Q3 thing, that's why I'm concerned (it's minor, but I hope they consider it, for completeness sake).

Also the built in Q3 browser could be a bit better (I keep saying this, but compare Q3's to UT's and see the difference).

Kurgan

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]

acdcfanbill
11-29-2001, 04:18 PM
yes, status bars are nice, but a bit fickle in the time remaining, they never load consistantly...

i would like it there though, simply to see how much is loaded....

Kurgan
11-29-2001, 07:00 PM
Well you have a point there, but all status bars are not created equal.

I found it amusing that Norton 2001 for example's virus scanner had a progress bar that was always notorious inaccurate (when scanning my computer it would get to 99% then stay there for ten straight minutes), and in Norton 2002, they removed the status bar completely (couldn't do it right I guess).

If done right, they could be good. Estimate actual time for processes, bar moves when progress is being made, etc. might be more complex than that, I dunno. They could also provide info on what exactly is loading (like with Quake3) so you have an idea. This also helps you gauge what settings you might need to turn down to make it faster if it's going too slow for you. Join progress for multiplayer games is also good.

If I'm on a modem I would like to know how long I have to sit there, for example.

And I like UT's server browser because it not only shows progress (as a percentage) but it also allows me to pause the loading and go to a server (Q3's doesn't, I have to wait for the entire thing to load or cancel it and the stuff isn't sorted as well). Another area where a status bar would be great.

Still, it is a nice feature. It's also a good way to tell if the game is really taking awhile to load, or if my computer has locked up or something. Seeing the time remaining gives me a chance to get up and grab a drink or take a quick bathroom break too (AvP2 comes to mind, with its looooong waits between levels).

Granted in probably five years time the load bars won't matter (with better hardware) but you'll probably have fewer people playing then too (except us hardcores.. most games don't last over five years anyway in terms of large communities).

Kurgan

Agen
11-30-2001, 04:54 PM
I liek
Status Bars even though they're uneven but for people with low-end comps they mgiht want to know if their comp has crashed. and it always let's u konw if u have time for a quick trip to the biscuit tin.

Emon
12-02-2001, 12:41 AM
I hate automaps. They are just plain annoying. It should be a physical map on paper, or in the case of Star Wars, one of those holographic palm thingies. A good example would be the Theif map. It should where you are, and where you have been. It also lets the designers hide certain parts, as you wouldn't have a complete map of an Imperial base, but merely bits and peices.

Kwup
12-02-2001, 12:53 AM
do people use maps in JK?

Lord_FinnSon
12-02-2001, 05:48 PM
it always let's u konw if u have time for a quick trip to the biscuit tin.

Most games also have Pause key for that or you can always go to Main Menu...

It should be a physical map on paper, or in the case of Star Wars, one of those holographic palm thingies.

Even better, if opening up map brought you back to Katarn's workshop where WeeGee displays that holographic map. ;)

StormHammer
12-04-2001, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Kwup
do people use maps in JK?

Yep, I used the overlay map in JK, but not all the time. If there is a similar feature in JKII, I'll probably use it. If there isn't...then, well, I think they need to address some of the issues Kurgan raised. Especially things like Force Seeing, and knowing where your team-mates are. :)

Personally, I'd like an X-Ray type effect for Force Seeing, so the walls turn transparent, or something...but that's just an idea. ;)

Kwup
12-04-2001, 10:31 PM
oh ya I was thinking of the 3D map where you cant move or anything, I forgot you can press tab :p

digl
12-05-2001, 08:13 PM
Kurgan returning in all his glory, expect some really long posts soon ;)


Personally, I'd like an X-Ray type effect for Force Seeing, so the walls turn transparent, or something...but that's just an idea.
Like ATI cheat drivers?
That is a good idea, of course not all the level would turn into a wireframe

And about the automap
As Kurgan says
The fans will EXPECT it. Removing it feels like going backwards...

It was very useful combined with seeing in mp

Now that we are talking about non vital features, I wanted to mention player profiles
This was done great in DF and JK, I dont know how it works in EF, but many new games are not very friendly to be used by several people
I hope JO has a good players profiles system

Vagabond
12-11-2001, 02:55 PM
The automapping feature from Jedi Knight was something I used extensively in the game, not because I was lost, but because when used in conjunction with Force See one could literally see the location of other people and things in the map. If Raven isn't implementing Force See, then the automapping feature loses a good deal of its value. However, this point prompts me to urge Raven to make every effort to implement Force See. JKII not having Force See would be like having R2 without D2.

You guys have played the original Jedi Knight, right ;)