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nykel007
11-28-2001, 11:33 AM
I was looking at the E3 vid again and some of the pics, and wondering why didn't Raven/LEC make force push like it was in Ep1. The cool wavey effect would of looked great in the game. What do you'll think.

toms
11-28-2001, 03:00 PM
i think i prefered the JK version. no real reason.

what would be cool is if we could use force push/pull on almost anything. most switches/levers should be force push/pullable (not just the ONE that is obviously there as a force pull puzzle like in MOTS)

It would also be cool to be able to use force push/pull on teammates, to help move then up to levels they couldn't reach alone, etc...

hang on, since jko is using regional damage then they can put in different animations for pushing/pulling enemies in different regions (same as they can put in for shooting them in different regions.)

This means you could push someone in the head/boddy to send them flying backwards, or in legs to knock their feet from under them and make them land on tehir face.
Alternately with pull... head/body pulls then towards you, arms/weapon disarms them, legs pulls their feet from under tehm and dumps them on their back. cool :D

acdcfanbill
11-28-2001, 07:00 PM
force push regions would be cool, but that would eliminate things like pushing 3 or 4 guys clumped together... unless you could set the range by how long you hold it down or something...

Moses
11-28-2001, 09:30 PM
I think a quick tap of the force push button should attack a large region in the direction you are facing. The longer you hold the button down the more focused your push becomes. If you hold it down long enough the targets could appear as they did in MotS I suppose. It's obviously harder to push a particular object than just pushing out blindly with the Force in a given direction. That could explain why it would take a longer hold of the button. To "focus your mind" or something of the sort. :rolleyes:

Agen
11-28-2001, 09:37 PM
Yeh that woudl kick ass i would be for things that require skill for moving important stuff such asa gun away from a stormie. then they woudl jsut whimper and cry mercy or run away.. in either case i'd kill him (hence the reason i kept turning to dark in jk)

Sounds Risky
11-28-2001, 09:57 PM
I would love to use Force Push to break windows. I don't know why, it just sounds cool :D

Agen
11-28-2001, 10:28 PM
No i wanna force throw stormies THROUGH windows. nowq that'd be cool. they'd jsut be knocked out and then u coudl leave em a little thermal detonator and then when he wakes up he can say good bye.

Executor32
11-28-2001, 11:00 PM
I want to be able to use Force powers on DROIDS! I wanted to use Chain Lightning on R2-D2 in MotS, but droids weren't targetable by force powers. It'd be nice if force throw worked on everything rather than special debris, too.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the only thing that affected whether you were light/dark was killing civilians.

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: Executor ]

michael
11-29-2001, 03:50 PM
The episode one force push would be better. Kyle is surrounded by stormies, and then force pushes two of them. one flies back and hits the wall, and the other goes through a window. ;)

Kurt Plummer
12-01-2001, 02:12 AM
If by wavey-random you mean like the /game/ TPM, then egads, NO! Sorry there sir but I like the notion of 'invisible=undetectable' _magic_.

The idea that it must be some kind of slight of hand/wired stuntmen except that you know it can't be because 'why would they throw you their guns or smash into a wall when they want to kill you?!?' Visualizing the Force as itself a blue-light takes away from that somehow.

What I WOULD like to see is some degree of 'wide vs. narrow FOV'. Either by different keys or different numbers of key taps.

Based on how many you want to effect vs. how long it takes to form the perceptual LINK with an object.

So that you can move one man or item simply with 'narrow focus', single-tap hold of the key for a short period vs. 'area effect' double tapping and a longer interval of powergathering required to move progressively more of everything, further away, in a given 'firehose' volume of poltergeisting.

Again, this supports the invisibility-clause because it suggests that rather than some dorky crosshairs YOU had to **timed-milliseconds** know how long it took to reach out a given distance and grab an object (instinctively without visual cue).

You could even combine this with (temporary movement control disconnected) mouse movements so that you could then designate a direction or target a specific location based on scrolled 'wish fulfillment'.

By mimicking the clearly motor-nerve driven functional elements of 'Force Coordination' shown in the films, this delay would penalize you for using power too casually in either slow-to-guessing reaction to what the other guy was doing before he did it or against single opponents in a multi-threat fight (in this, the Force is most certainly better as an /offensive/ tool as anyone who has used Force Pull only to be shot while wiggling his hand will attest).

At the same time, it would let you have a far more specific and even 'artistic' control on the way that power was expressed, based on player tap-tap-swoosh personalized attack styles.

EXAMPLES:
1. Dull as Dirt.
Maybe you knock one or 10 off their feet, depending on the width of effect put out (and your mastery 'reach' for any given time of connection with the target) unmoving and helpless.

Doing a single guy is certainly quicker and could leave fewer incoming blaster bolts in a narrower lines-of-fire field of blocking but it also means you have to 'mop up', with sabre, more total bad guys once you are noticed.

2. Starting to Come Alive.
But what if, instead, you ou use one guy to stumble into or even -shoot- another (something I never understood in JK1 re: Force Throw was the presumption that it had to be an /inanimate/ object that you slung around when clearly you had so many shooters to use as clubs themselves and any club is going to be incapacitated as a shooter regardless...).

3. No Mercy.
Sometimes dumb is good and you have both the reach and the power to sweep them all over a ledge but WHERE is that vulnerability?

In JK1 it could only be push/pull relative to your facing direction.

But with the mouse all of a sudden _the motion_ you use implies the vector of travel and the the lemming cliff could left/right/center/ahead directioned independant of your look-direction.

This kind of concentration is NOT easy (note both Quigon and Obi Wan only use the Force when specifically out of sabre-dance combat mode and indeed the former actually puts his sabre away before shoving two droids away from Queen Amidala during the 'jail break' scene on Naboo).

But because it is hard in and of itself it could be considered 'self training' without resort to cheesy stars or piegraph type learning curve or power useage systems.

I /luv/ this concept because it implies that players are good Force users and Warrior Jedi, not based on treasure hunting or successful trigger pulls but because they _practice_ the art they are given Apprentice/Charge/Journeyman/Knight/Master
credits for, maybe in some kind of obstacle course or training hall, complete with popup/holographic targets (NOT just drones!) and progressively heavier or more numerous objects to manipulate etc..

Make it a /feeling/ of participative encounter, something new and different. Or you will have Quake IV trigger-fest in SW skins. And Nothing More.


Kurt Plummer


P.S. Once again in Slowmo...

F3=Move Objects
F4=Move People
F=Narrow Focus (basically anthing immediately along the forward-line of your sabre blade, hold down for range)
G=Wide Focus (basically anything within a 30`-360`, experience=power based, cone off your sabre blade hold down for width-at-range)
Mouse= Direction Of Rip Or Push Or Pull Or Twist

Individual Taste and Environmental Artifact Population then dictate what objects or enemies are moved.

Executor32
12-01-2001, 03:23 AM
Riiight. :rolleyes: That's a tad too complex for my tastes. :p I'd prefer something like a screen color overlay, ala Force Seeing, which would take about 2-3 seconds or so to wipe from the edges of the screen to the center. When you let the button go, your Force push/pull would affect the area not covered by the color overlay, and its strength would be determined by the size of said area. That way, you could hold it down for a little bit and get a weak push/pull over a large area, or hold it down for a couple seconds to get a strong push/pull over a small area.

TrUeFoRcE
12-01-2001, 03:46 AM
i think it will be cool if u use force push on a guy thats jumping towards u and u toss him back to where he came from :D

Emon
12-02-2001, 12:24 AM
Chances are you'll be able to use Force Push on everyone, including teammates. I'd imagine I'd be more a hassle to create it so you CAN'T push teammates. Region pushes would be really awesome, but tough for targeting.

The_WAH
12-02-2001, 06:20 PM
It seem you will be able to push stormies through windows. (Look closely behind the stormtrooper, it looks like cracked glass.) I guess they took the screenshot just as the window was breaking.
http://www.storm.hammer.btinternet.co.uk/BreakingGlasss.jpg
(sorry, put up wrong picture, should be fixed now)

[ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: The_WAH ]

[EDIT - Stormy - I decided to cut the pic down to size to make it easier for some people to see. It should load more quickly too. :cool: ]

Emon
12-02-2001, 07:03 PM
Whoa, I had not noticed that in that pic before...that's cool!

Agen
12-02-2001, 07:15 PM
Ultra cool.. They've probably improved the graphics by now aswell... it'll be even better now.

StormHammer
12-04-2001, 10:42 PM
Yeah, the breaking glass was noticed in that pic when it was first released. BTW, could you link to a smaller version, please...not everyone runs their screens at that res. ;)

As for Force Push...(strong sense of deja vu) Wilhuf gave a good response to Kurt, but unfortunately some posts are now missing. So I'll give a more basic answer.

I think assigning 5 keys to one Force Power is a bit too complex. I mean, when you're in the middle of a hectic battle, the last thing you want to think about is which key to press to activate which part of a force power. I think one key is enough, if used in a similar way to Force Jump, i.e., the longer you hold the key down, the wider and/or more powerful the effect.

Not being able to move your character while moving another object is probably a sure way to wind up dead, too.

So I think it should remain simple to use, yet flexible enough that you could push larger (or more) objects if you wish. Holding down a key to increase the power could also allow you to power up while running or dodging, and then quickly take aim and let loose a maximum push to take out your opponents. :)

nykel007
12-05-2001, 02:34 PM
I was thinking mabye cause my PC might not be the max specs for this game the Force Push effect might/ could be turned off. Mabye?

SlowbieOne
12-05-2001, 02:40 PM
5 keys to one Force Power is a bit too complex.

A bit Stormhammer? Try a ton!:D

You would need an extra hand!:)

Hey maybe I could use that one.:duel:

You done with that Luke?

StormHammer
12-05-2001, 05:24 PM
LOL, SlowbieOne. :D

Ushgarak
12-15-2001, 09:49 PM
Something that may well cause controversy is the use of push in sabre duels. Mindful of how Maul defeated Obi-Wan I am sure there are many people who want to be knocking their opponents all over the shop in such a fight.

But that this was not a tactic they used all the time in their fights suggest that the opportunities to use push on a Jedi are very few. Maul waited until Obi-Wan was off-guard and in a vulnerable position before his finishing move (still, if only he HAD finished it, eh? He would look a lot less stupid).

So we can assume that a Jedi can instinctively stop a push sent his way, unless he is in a bad positiion. I very much hope players will be immune to push in most situations.

Nikkos Tyris
12-15-2001, 10:56 PM
Either what u said was true or it takes a certain level of concentration on the Jedi's part to do the push. When u think about it, to actually push something with enegry from the Force takes alot of manipulation of it to accomplish the task. So like in the case of the Obi vs. Maul battle, they were probably busy already tapping into the force just for energy and to predict the next person's moves that they would have enough time to gather the force to make such an attack while making sure they could keep themselves alive.

So I feel that they should have it where the Force Push takes alot more out of a Jedi's Mana than before in MOTS to prevent others from over using it. It kindof makes it where it should be only used in a quick moment, last minute decision.