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SlowbieOne
11-29-2001, 10:52 PM
The purpose of this thread is to determine (or try to anyway), whether the blaster in JK2 should be like the original JK.

I'm referring to the way the blaster rifle fires wild shots instead of controlled fire.

I have a few reasons why I think there should not be wild shots.

First of all, I think FPS games are skill based as it is, so making wild fire takes away from the skill part of playing. The purpose of the way FPS games are built, is to distinguish the skillful, from the norm based on how accurate you can shoot, correct?
I'm talking about hardcore players as opposed to casual gamers who are just playing to play. True, I play for fun, but like many of us, I want to take this game seriously.

Another thing is Kyle is more experienced now, so he should be able to control that thing a bit better now I'd say. After all, this IS a Jedi we're talking about. :)

Also I found that the stormtroopers were too inaccurate, and frankly too predictable and easy as a result of their wild blasts. Ben Kenobi basically said the Troopers we very accurate in ANH, so where's that element?

I don't know enough about the SW EU to say whether or not the Blaster Rifle is SUPPOSED to shoot random, but am I the only one who wants the Blaster to shoot bolts AT LEAST 70% if not 100% more accurate? :confused:

Let's hear your comments people! :D

DeathBoLT
11-29-2001, 11:06 PM
ben kenobi never said they were very accurate.. he just said the blast points were too accurate for sand people..

besides, how often have u seen storm troopers actually nail people in the movies? :p

the storm trooper rifle in JK is lethal at close range(due to its rapid fire) and decent at med range..

automatic fire and you get poor accuracy..

when its sort of semi-automatic(as seen when using the scope to snipe people in mots) its extremely accurate but has a slower rate of fire..

Executor32
11-29-2001, 11:16 PM
Stormtroopers are actually very accurate, since they can consistently hit near a target from at least several dozen meters away, and while shooting from the HIP. In case you didn't know, it's very hard to fire accurately from the hip.

Oh, and I also think that the sormtrooper rifle should be more accurate. Partially because of the above, and partially because the stormtrooper rifle is supposed to be a pretty accurate weapon. The T-21 repeater, on the other hand, is supposed to be about as accurate as the stormtrooper rifle was in JK.

madrebel
11-29-2001, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by DeathBoLT:
<STRONG>ben kenobi never said they were very accurate.. he just said the blast points were too accurate for sand people..

besides, how often have u seen storm troopers actually nail people in the movies? :p

the storm trooper rifle in JK is lethal at close range(due to its rapid fire) and decent at med range..

automatic fire and you get poor accuracy..

when its sort of semi-automatic(as seen when using the scope to snipe people in mots) its extremely accurate but has a slower rate of fire..</STRONG>


st rifle + weapon boost = death on a stick :)

DeathBoLT
11-29-2001, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by Executor:
[QB]Stormtroopers are actually very accurate, since they can consistently hit near a target from at least several dozen meters away, and while shooting from the HIP. [QB]


I never thought about it that way... now I see they are actually trained in something other than 'Standing there and Dying' :p

DeathBoLT
11-30-2001, 12:00 AM
maybe if they're ready for you(either in prepared defenses or if they're warned before hand over comlink, we'll see a few taking cover behind a rock while taking accurate shots from their shoulder with the rifle butt extended..

SlowbieOne
11-30-2001, 12:13 AM
ben kenobi never said they were very accurate.. he just said the blast points were too accurate for sand people..

I never said he said that, i said BASICALLY. :)

besides, how often have u seen storm troopers actually nail people in the movies?

Quite a few I reckon.

the storm trooper rifle in JK is lethal at close range(due to its rapid fire) and decent at med range..
automatic fire and you get poor accuracy..

Then explain the Repeater. See my point?

I honestly see no reason why the Blaster fires wild since I was under the impression it's supposed to be accurate. If that is false and is IS in fact supposed to shoot wild, I can live with that. :)

Kwup
11-30-2001, 12:17 AM
I say combine the blaster rifles slow, steady shots and the stormy wild ones into one gun, making room for another, more unique gun

DeathBoLT
11-30-2001, 12:30 AM
repeaters do less damage and thus have probaly less recoil

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: DeathBoLT ]

xwing guy
11-30-2001, 12:32 AM
I say they should have an option on the ST rifle that lets you fire on a real accurate, semi-auto fire mode or a full auto, inaccurate fire mode.

DeathBoLT
11-30-2001, 12:34 AM
i retracted my statement about storm troopers accuracy in my reply to executer

I honestly see no reason why the Blaster fires wild since I was under the impression it's supposed to be accurate. If that is false and is IS in fact supposed to shoot wild, I can live with that.
see executer's post..

the gun shoots straight, its just how its fired that affects its accuracy


ed- comprehensibility issues and combining a flood of replies under a single post :)

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: DeathBoLT ]

acdcfanbill
11-30-2001, 01:57 AM
hey exicutor, did you know your site is on crack? it keeps reloading itself over and over... though you would like to know... as to the st rifles accuracy, it was accurate at slow rate, just like the movies, how many times did you see a ST fire his rifle on fully auto?

X-Vector
11-30-2001, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by DeathBoLT:
<STRONG>repeaters do less damage and thus have probaly less recoil
</STRONG>

Energy weapons have recoil?
Hmmm, interesting...

Agen
11-30-2001, 12:12 PM
They were pellets fired very fequently and strongly

SlowbieOne
11-30-2001, 12:14 PM
That's what was on my mind too X-Vector. :)

Also I checked the damage of the Repeater compared to the damage of the Blaster, and I'm afraid it's about the same. The Repeater isn't very different like proclaimed, and it doesn't even fire even a TAD bit wild.

I would be happier if they made both the Repeater and the Blaster wild becuase it makes no logical sense why 1 should, and 1 shouldn't.

Kettch
11-30-2001, 03:28 PM
Well, I think the shoot-system should be like that in Counter-Strike. The first shots should be very accurate while rapid fire scatters the bolts around...for example the E-11 rifle should shoot like a Colt M4A1 Carbine (3-4 shots kill even with shields) and the Repeater Cannon should be like the H&K MP5, its kinda accurate but with less power.

The sniper options should be very accurate, perhaps it should be a little bit like the sniper rifles in Return to Castle Wolfenstein (very realisic simulation of the snper rifle and one of my favorite games)

Well, that's just my opinion ;)

Zekk Dawkins
11-30-2001, 07:46 PM
the esential guide to weapons and technology says...
"The E-11 blaster rifle has a maximum range of 300 meters and an optimum range of 100 meters, nearly three times the reach of a blaster pistol."

"The E-11 can be set for a variety of power levels, from stun to full blast"

"Although both Imperial and New REpublic soldiers normally use the semiautomatic setting in order to conserve ammunition and allow adiquate cooling, the weapon has full automatic and pulse fire settings. Extended automatic fire may throw the barrel out of alignment."

"The E-11 and it's technological "clone", a SoroSuub-manufactured blaster rifle called the Stormtrooper One(later renamed the Freedom One)"

Just thought I'd let you know, and in JK you were better off "sniping"(if you coulg call it that) with Kyle's Bryar Pistol, not the E-11

DeathBoLT
11-30-2001, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by X-Vector:
<STRONG>

Energy weapons have recoil?
Hmmm, interesting...</STRONG>

load up jk/mots.. fire your byrar, then your stormtrooper rifle
they both bounce up/back due to recoil whereas the repeater sits still.. the repeater also has a butt to absorb recoil, etc.

remember: blasters aren't laser guns.. there is a chemical reaction involved here rather than light just focused by a bunch of glass lenses(concave/convex one of the two)

SlowbieOne:
Also I checked the damage of the Repeater compared to the damage of the Blaster, and I'm afraid it's about the same. The Repeater isn't very different like proclaimed, and it doesn't even fire even a TAD bit wild.
Wrong. The st rifle does 30 damage to shields whereas the reapter does about 18.

between more damage, recoil, etc. its not suprise the st rifle fires widly as opposed to the repeater

kettch, thats sorta how the recoil works in JK.. i also agree it would be cool to have a m4 style blaster, and a mp5ish repeater.. :)

SlowbieOne
11-30-2001, 08:52 PM
Wrong. The st rifle does 30 damage to shields whereas the reapter does about 18.

Now here's my quote...read it very carefully...

it's about the same.

I don't consider a 12 point difference much different at all.

You won't give up will ya DeathBoLT? :)
I believe we both have valid points here.

Anyway, this is getting us nowhere, where's George Lucas when you need him? After all, it's his world, so the only truth lies with him.

Or maybe our buddy ChangKhan can swing by and clear this little matter up(hint hint), if that's even possible.

DeathBoLT
11-30-2001, 09:10 PM
aye :P

btw, st rifles temporarily stun you when they hit you in JK (i.e. your movement is significantly impacted for a brief second)

this is why st rifles are particularly lethal in closed areas where evasive action is limited

;)

Kurt Plummer
12-01-2001, 12:12 AM
Snicker, there is /some/ realworld precedent for inaccurate military hardware, if you go back a century or two...

The Brown Bess vs. Long Rifle. A Bess could only kill over 100yds IF it was fired en-masse volley between line-standing exposed troops. It could also be reloaded quickly.

American hunting rifles could kill out to 300yds or more and there are high ranking 'sitting horse' kills by snipers on both sides of 76 and 12 to prove it. But it took so long to load that you had to have room to run away to do it right.

That said, here's what /miffs/ me:

1. BOTH Kyle-weapons are 'cut off'. In fact the 'ST rifle' even looks more like a carbine or even an SMG (it reminds me of a Sten).

This WILL effect their accuracy just as it does anyweapon where the muzzle blast and/or blowback is directed against a shorter sighting radius and there is nothing grip-balancing the gun forward (like an M12 or even Thompson foregrip).

The bryar is even worse in that it looks like some kind of perversely too-far sawed off shotgun.

In fact if one gun fires badly, they both should, unless there is a significant difference in recoil dampening method, a residual shoulder stock won't make that much difference (nor would a folder, having shot an Uzi both ways, it's not that great for either) because it's the mass of the barrel ahead of the receiver, the lever of your arm 'holding it down' and the sit in the 'L' of your shoulder and upper arm that makes a difference.

2. NOT trying to hit anything, but rather just to fire *consistently* so I can 'zero the pattern', by finding a common center and shifting that center to what I perceive to be aim and lead, in single shot, slow fire, the ST-1/E-11 or whatever it is throws bolts /at an angle/ to the barrel.

This is deliberate scatter that doesn't support the idea of a narrowed muzzle emission point, let alone some 'focussing lens' crap.

With no visible motion in the gun to support such radical dispersion, I consider this to be bunk.

3. There IS a pattern.
To any precision machined weapons 'throw' of rounds. It may differ in magnitude between 3-round vs. Autofire and point static vs. moving fires, but it will be a constant once you get the feel of the gun.

Depending on the recoil/flash device on the muzzle and the effects of the bolt location/operating mode any gun fires up and away from the direction of round ejection.

Where we can presume some kind of regenerative gas/plasma interaction 'harvested' for bolts over trigger pull interval but never really 'ejecting' anything, the simple-recoil effect on round scatter should be even more predictable.

With a modern AR, in 3-round mode, assuming you are 'dead on, center mass' at trigger-pull (like any good, non-hollyweird 'sniper' shooter is trained to do), the first round bisects your target's sternum, the second a little to one side of the hollow below his throat throat and the third clips/misses his temple.

Where you 'stir the barrel' with a tight circular grip, this can be further directed to a circle of expanding rounds to saturate a given point or group firesource or 'X-ed' through the height=lead of any runner/s direction of travel.

Furthermore, _IF_ you fire '3-rounds-on-#1's-slide' of the initial bolt recoil, like the new Russian AN-94 rifles and the rotary cylinder G-11, the effect of felt displacement on the barrel is going to be as if you fired a single, long-period recoil moment. This too should improve accuracy.

The ST rifle actually seems to like working this way (3 rounds from a held trigger, no perceivable cyclative action between emissions) but it sure as heck doesn't obey any law of user-controllable ballistic patterning.

And because of this last, it would, IMO, **Never** be accepted by whatever Empire-equates to our Proving Ground/Arsenal system of firearms evaluation for service use.

4. I wanna feel 'there'.
For myself, the greatest disappointment is that I actually ENJOY 'walking through the movie' of 3rd person camera environmentals, whether with Sabre or Gun, not the least because it helps with my situational awareness of where I've been and what I'm coming up on as a function of peripheral vision and balance.

But I feel I have so little control of the firing pattern on the ranged weapons that I have to go to F1 just to keep the aimpoint roughly centered and stay alive.

The result is claustrophobic waste of all that beautiful scenery.

SOME IDEAS FOR IMPROVEMENT:
1. Spread the Missioning Around.
WE KNOW the Imperials have heavy LMG type weapons. We've seen Han and Chewie use an MG42 type, longbarrel, blaster in EPIV and Leia uses a similar gun _at considerable range_ (like 500-800m) on Vader in Splinter Of The Minds Eye.

They should be present, in game, so that biomechanical ratios of movement between forward griphand and trigger hand can be inertially balanced vs. recoil, even as they offer heavier bolts that more resemble what are shown in the movies instead of some poorly artistically designed 'bright rain' repeater.

At a penalty of movement rates and inertia-aimpointing when fired from the hip (the barrel should literally want to keep swinging when making rapid transitory movements across the target field on non-area threats).

2. Shoulder vs. Hip
Call me old fashioned, but No Gun should be called a 'Rifle' if it cannot be fired, as is (no folding crap), from the shoulder.

This means a buttstock that works for either armored or soft-cloth dress (say through a springloaded electromagnet contact switch or similar). I don't care if it 'breaks the rules' on what we've seen in the movie, there are plenty of other examples to show that full-stock (Aliens) BIG guns can be fully capable of looking neat.

At the least, we should be able to fire better stanced than is now the case, preferably gun extended across-body and your target area minimized by turning sideways.

It's not the ideal solution because you really don't want to 'lean your head over' to shoot but it's better than what is now taken for granted: cheat-ahead, face-forward, OK Corral.

3. GOOD PISTOLS.
Something like the M94 (derivative Beretta M92 which the Army uses) with an optional threeround burst capability and folding foregrip OR single round 'extended arm' shooting.

You fire from the hip only when taken by surprise in a kind of spray-and-pray suppression mode to keep their heads down.
That said, the smaller the gun, the less time wasted bringing it up to a USEFUL hand-eye line and the less muzzle->earth pull of having your weapon on the far end of a single arm.

Also, at the distances shown in SW, a really good pistoleer will often beat an SMG
man when using AIMED fire, on dispersed targets.

Especially on a combat course like obstacle field where you have to bring the gun into play around corners etc. at limited self-exposure.

4. Armbrace/Powered Armguns.
So that you have another interesting item besides ammo to look for, in-game, and one which, through agrav generators or some kind of synthetic-muscle/bionic 'elbow pad' helps offload the weight of the gun to the strength of the bones, alleviating natural muscle load to provide a more stable aim.

5. BORESIGHT LASER DOT.
Actually, something closer to a cops speedgun and mountable under the barrel of any weapon while capable of putting out either a sniper pencil beam (F1) or a fan for close combat (F2).

Either way, a doppler processor in a given field of view under the 'death dot' borepipper and displays a red cross hairs on a target that is mobile.

You see both dot and crosshair using a helmet or even sunglasses type combiner display in front of your eyes and while the dot remains constant, the crosshairs precess for lead based on where the target is moving and how fast. Keep the crosshairs centered and you will hit.

Given the /incredibly/ slow times of flight on blaster bolts, such could actually be useful even at close range and more importantly, they would give you a sense of depth of field when playing in F2 mode so that you would know where the (dot) aimpoint of your gun was laid ALL THE TIME.

Even as just a spotlight type death dot, this would give me back F2 gunfire mode, something which I REALLY would like to have.

6. More Splash/Overpenetration Damage.
As a differentiator between pistols and SMG/Carbine or LMG/_Rifle_ weapons. Especially for armored/unarmored targets.

If ALL weapons have -some- degree of 'accurate and automode' firing; then it starts to make sense that you would need to find bigger bores to handle Imperial Armor or Shielded Threats.

Also where a disruptor can be made a pistol but isn't very accurate or rapid firing and a military grade carbine or rifle is both meaner and more apt to hit but is no longer concealable, you have to be pick and choose your weapon for your target environment.

Remember:
Docking Bay 94 with chunks ripped from walls over the entrace as Storm Troopers arrive maybe because Han can't kill them reliably with his blastech?

Or:
Similar bits ripped out of the sides of columns in the Naboo hangar or even going THROUGH a crate to kill a Security Officer from heavy Droideka guns.

You'd be amazed how apt to shatter objects are when flash heated a few thousand degrees so that any (say...water) volatile component material goes through a couple expansive phase changes in less than a microsecond.

Quite intimidatingly 'showy' it would also remove much of the problems and /need/ inherent to grenades and the like while still leaving room for surprise cases where 'magnetically sealed' areas bounce-a-bolt-back.


Kurt Plummer

Executor32
12-01-2001, 04:34 AM
:confused:

One word of advice: Summarize.

xwing guy
12-02-2001, 01:29 AM
Dadgum that was a long post. I think I fell asleep while I was reading it.

Millions o' Monkeys
12-02-2001, 02:24 AM
i didnt read it :)

well lets get to it now
Energy weapons have recoil?
Hmmm, interesting...


of course they have recoil. Because its and energy weapon dosnt chage the fact thta some sort of force will need to launch it. Iam amazed that they didnt make the death star recoil after its planet destroying insanly huge laser rifle was fired. :D

The st rifle was the most vercitile (spelling ?) weapon in the game i would have to say even if it was wild sometimes. Becasue it was the only weapon in the game thta gave you the choice to either spread your fire or snipe a little.

so however they make the st rifle perform yuou will be able to use it in a effective and skillful manner. Its all about learning.

toms
12-02-2001, 02:48 PM
having a rifle that is more inacurate than a pistol might seem a bit wierd...but in gameplay terms it at least gave the pistol some use... unlike most FPS games where you start with a pistol, then ignore it after 10 minutes when you get your first decent weapon...

i really liked the stormie rifle in JK, it's speed easily made up for it's inacuracy at close range... an it ended up working in the same way as a shotgun does in most FPS games...

maybe having the first shot acurate then increased inacuracy would be cool... or have the primary fire as before, but the secondary fire a slower, acurate shot.

Or maybe have Rainbow 6 / NOLF style crosshairs that get bigger and more inacurate as you run, but smaller and more acurate if yu stay still, crouched...

Emon
12-02-2001, 06:09 PM
The Blastech E-11, also known as the "Stormtrooper Rifle" is actually very accurate. It has a long range, and can stay accurate at long ranges too. Stormtroopers are actually supposed to be "elite", but I'm not sure that makes a difference against a Jedi. :D

The_WAH
12-02-2001, 06:26 PM
If you look at the E3 footage (The longer one) They show two small bits with the stormtrooper rifle at 0:56-1:09 and 2:02-2:07, its not much and very hard to make out, but from what I see the stormtrooper rifle is more accurate than it was in JK1.

One question, is it just me or does that guy seem to be abusing saber throw in the footage?

PreTZeL
12-02-2001, 06:30 PM
i dunno!

StormHammer
12-04-2001, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by toms
...maybe having the first shot acurate then increased inacuracy would be cool... or have the primary fire as before, but the secondary fire a slower, acurate shot.

Yeah, I tend to agree. I think that short bursts should be more accurate, but a sustained burst of fire should start to go wild. I thought this effect was well done in Quake II with the submachinegun - although ironically, I didn't think that gun was appropriate to that game. :D The way it started to ride up was good, and you had to work to keep it under control. I wouldn't mind if the ST Rifle used something similar.

If anything, I thought the Repeater in JK should have been the more inaccurate weapon due to it's rapid rate of fire.

And talking about the usefulness of pistols as accurate weapons, I tend to agree...although they should be restricted to accuracy and effectiveness at short- to mid-range, while rifles should be accurate at long range. I believe in JK the power of the shot faded over distance...so you had to use more ammo for long shots. That is something I think should remain. Although I wouldn't mind having a similar secondary fire on the Bryar as the DL-44 in MotS...hold it down to power it up, and then fire. That would increase the usefulness of the Bryar, IMHO.