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View Full Version : No co-op mode in JK2


matt--
11-17-2001, 02:49 PM
http://www.lucasarts.com/products/outcast/faq.htm#303

3.03 Will there be a co-operative (co-op) mode?
There will not be co-op play where multiple players can play through the single-player missions simultaneously. Team deathmatch multiplayer is planned, however.

ZeroXcape
11-17-2001, 03:30 PM
matt-windu: That just means someone has to edit that in for multiplayer ;)

magnum
11-17-2001, 05:29 PM
That's a pity :(

I think that the most difficult part for a feature like this is how you make a level that works ok in both SP and Co-Op mode. Not an easy task, I think...

matt--
11-17-2001, 05:32 PM
Well "Team deathmatch multiplayer is planned, however."
I wish they said something like a capture the flag variation. Multiplayer would suffer without such a game mode. :(

StephenG
11-17-2001, 05:41 PM
I dont like CTF. i was hoping for something like RtCW type thing in the SW universe

magnum
11-17-2001, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by StephenG:
<STRONG>I dont like CTF. i was hoping for something like RtCW type thing in the SW universe</STRONG>

Just curious: what's RtCW? Haven't heard that before.
Nevermind. Return to Castle Wolfenstein :D
I agree with you 100%. Now I understand your post ;)


I like CTF, and any other non deathmatch mode for multiplayer. Anything that has another objetive than blast anything that moves. More strategy and tactics, you know :)

[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: Magnum ]

StephenG
11-17-2001, 06:07 PM
^
Return To Castle Wolfenstein

Lion Heart
11-17-2001, 06:15 PM
Hmmm.

It really wont be hard to make a Co-op.

nykel007
11-17-2001, 08:25 PM
I must agree, it was a disappointment to see that there be no co-op mode. :( .

bsbuckeye21
11-17-2001, 09:39 PM
Oh great, not another developer wimping out of taking some time to add in a very rewarding co-op multiplayer expirience.

Millions o' Monkeys
11-17-2001, 09:47 PM
hmmmm i dont think it was a case of wimping out...more of a case of hmmm lets get rid of co-op its not gonna work in the game

OnlyOneCanoli
11-17-2001, 10:40 PM
Or maybe it's we don't want to delay the game a month to get it in. How would it not work in the game?

It's sad that developers refuse to put co-op into a lot of today's games. Very unfortunate.

Rancor
11-17-2001, 11:01 PM
Truth is, we don't know all of the reasons why it won't be in there. Maybe they don't have time to make it. Maybe they don't even want to make it. Maybe it would cost too much money to develop it properly.

In the case of the latter possibility, as much as I hate to say it...companies exist to make money. When it comes down to it, decisions to cut or add a feature are a balance of cost, return on that extra investment ( significantly enchanced sales )..etc. It sucks, but I guess we just have to deal with it.

But..I'm guessing the real issue is time. Anyone else note that the game release time roughly correlates with when the next movie comes out? I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that this is the reason why the game seems a bit rushed. I can't imagine a tie-in though--the timeframe would be all wrong for that.

Or maybe it's we don't want to delay the game a month to get it in. How would it not work in the game?

A month? Try 6 months. I could think of reasons why it wouldn't work. In the case of EF, single player and multi player were two different executables. I've often wondered if they did this because they ripped the networking out of single player? In that kind of case, co-op would be impossible. I'm sure there must be a reasonable reason why we won't be getting co-op.

[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: Rancor ]

bsbuckeye21
11-17-2001, 11:32 PM
Well for the upcoming Duke Nukem Forever there won't be co-op because (as said by George Broussard, the producer) the game is too complicated for that. Say a bridge has exploded behind you and your partner is on the other side. Then what? That's basically 3D Realm's reasoning.

But not to be derogatory, I don't JK2 will be as complex as DNF. Blasting stormies and other baddies isn't all that sophisticed (Yeah yeah, I know, you'll be able to do other stuff.)

So what would be so complex in a game based off of Jedi Knight? Hmm... well maybe this time around we might get some vehicle that's used to cross something. (Then again, you could just have 2 vehicles.) And uh... well that's all I can really think of for now.

Also, I'm all for screwing the story and adding dev time in favor of having a friend on your side.

Pretty much none of today's games have co-op. What to do to get the industry buzzing and customers happy that want the great co-op expirience? Put it in. :cool:

Ash Longbaugh
11-17-2001, 11:36 PM
The game has a story. Adding more affects the story.


Having said that, it would be cool if they had a Co-op multiplayer, which was basically missions for groups. Imagine the start of TPM, your band of Jedi fighting through the Trade Fed droids. Wowsers :)

bsbuckeye21
11-18-2001, 01:33 AM
That would be cool. *sigh*... looks like someone's gonna have to start a mod. Has anyone already made a mod for some other Q3 powered game? If so, get 'em in here. :)

CaptainRAVE
11-18-2001, 09:54 AM
So theres no co-op play then :(. Im gutted. Me and my friends were really looking forward to completing the game together as a group.

X-Vector
11-18-2001, 11:14 AM
I'm actually quite happy to know there will be no co-op play in Jedi Outcast.

To put it in perhaps a little bit too simplistic of terms, JO just isn't DooM or Serious Sam in space and that's something to be thankful for.
Apart from the many gameplay related reasons for not having co-op (some of which bsbuckeye21 already mentioned), IMO singleplayer relies heavily on atmosphere, suspense and the "me vs. them" idea, having a co-op sidekick tagging along with me through the game would diminish these qualities (NPC characters are very welcome though, just as long as they know when to leave me alone again).

Multiplayer is a completely different story though, I'm completely uninterested in playing JO FFA deathmatch (I've got Q3 to cater to my deathmatch needs), although 1 vs. 1 could be interesting, but teamplay all the way is what I say.

Eraxel
11-18-2001, 12:41 PM
I'm a great lover of any co-op games, however, I don't think co-op would work out much in the original single player scenario. As some people already said: Atmosphere and plot development can't be that dynamic and flexible without the single player game mode being reduced to a mere slaughterfest.

BUT: I can imagine a lot of smaller co-op missions not too closely tied to the single player game, and if the Raven team don't come up with it (maybe in the form of some expansion pack, as they did before), I can only hope there are to be mod programmers who're up to the task.

StormHammer
11-18-2001, 12:53 PM
Welcome to the forums, Eraxel. :D Have a Jedi Snack. (I don't do baskets.)

I'm in two minds about co-op. On the one hand, I'd love to play it - if my connection would allow. On the other hand, I can see where it might mess with the storyline, and certain scripted events.

Maybe it would be better as a Mod, which has a cohesive story and a design that can handle teams.

I know that the people who did the RUNE co-op mod had to change a few fundamental elements - and include additional respawn points for the players throughout levels. It was a pretty major task, and took quite some time.

Anyway, I think a mod should be like one mission, broken up into a few decent-sized levels, with enough enemies etc., to cater for a group of seasoned Jedi to fight through.

Eraxel
11-18-2001, 01:04 PM
Hm, there's the SvenCoop mod for Half-Life, I'd pretty much like coop maps designed like some very well-made among those. What's RUNE? ;-)

CaptainRAVE
11-18-2001, 01:05 PM
I suppose in a way it is better that there is no co-op play available. At least now they can concentrate on the single player aspects of the game more in depth. Even though they would have had time to add co-op play because the engine was already build, so the time of development was halved if not more.

X-Vector
11-18-2001, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by CaptainRAVE:
<STRONG>Even though they would have had time to add co-op play because the engine was already build, so the time of development was halved if not more.</STRONG>

Even though the Q3 engine had already been built before work on JO started, I sincerely hope Raven only used it as a starting point, not a fixed product.
I don't want the game to end up as a Q3 or EF mod.
Take a look at what id's CEO has to say on the subject of RTCW's Q3 based engine:

About the only two pieces of the original Quake III Arena Engine that remain in Return to Castle Wolfenstein are the core rendering system and the network code (although throughout the development of Team Arena and subsequent point releases the network code has been optimized an incredible amount as well). Gray Matter has developed an advanced AI system where enemies will react to their surroundings, take cover, work together, and make different decisions based on the tactics with which you play. They have been able to add realism by incorporating a skeletal animation system which allows for many more animations per character, as well as the use of motion capture data to create animations that are incredibly smooth and lifelike (it’s actually a little spooky sometimes).


Also remember what Valve has been able to accomplish with Quake I technology.

Upgrading and modifying an engine this way will probably take more time than you think, but it will result in a higher quality game.

Raven should be allowed to take all the time they need to make JO something special.

wardz
11-18-2001, 01:58 PM
On a slightly separate note, as this is the official fan site - (that sounds beter each time I say it) does this mean that we will be hosting all the mods a la massassi?

With modded co-op play what if loads of people decided they want to mod it? With loads of different versions wouldn't that make it very difficult to organise a good game?


wardz

DeathBoLT
11-18-2001, 03:42 PM
I know I'd like a few levels, not neccesearily straight from single player, that feature a group of real people fighting hordes of stormtroopers, etc. and accomplishing certain objectives as a team.

I can wait, though, for it to come out as a mod or for it to come out as part of a seperately sold add-on package.. I'd like to see JO this coming Feburary, as opposed to a 6+ additional wait.

CaptainRAVE
11-18-2001, 05:03 PM
With regards to the engine they only used it as a base

"Because we began with a nearly-complete technology base, we were able to start development of Jedi Outcast almost immediately with little or no programmer ramp up time. This has allowed the team to focus more on creating fantastic visuals, stunning special effects, truly interactive levels and a gaming experience worthy of the original title." -- Kenn Hoekstra

But like he said, it still saved them a lot of time.

cossack1812
11-19-2001, 05:10 AM
Yeah, nothing would be cooler then being in a huge fight with ye mates, versus a horde of Sith/Jedi and just watching each other flipping around and hacking up the enemy while the force powers fly around :D

tulwinn
11-20-2001, 03:30 PM
Well if they cant add it into the single player game, a coop mode with set missions, like historical missions, escape the death star, get the princess to teh falcon on hoth etc.. that would be cool and wouldnt 'break' the single player version.

SlowbieOne
11-20-2001, 04:44 PM
I was really looking forward to this possibility too, oh well. :(

Hopefully someone will take the time and make a mod.

jediofhteforce
11-20-2001, 05:12 PM
I just like the idea of fighting in co-op mode through a level, it would be great to have gameply like that but be able to defeat imperial forces with a friend.

Vagabond
11-20-2001, 08:54 PM
Dearly beloved and dearly bereaved, we are gathered hear today to grieve for the loss of our dear departed friend - JKII Multiplayer Coop.

Though a companion through many journies, our paths have parted, yet perhaps hope remains. In the twilight where thee doth dwell, it is possible, however unlikely that the spirit of coop will cross the great expanse. But I dare not hope, the pain too great, the sadness so severe. And yet, one dreams...

jipe
11-21-2001, 02:12 AM
A month? Try 6 months

IMO singleplayer relies heavily on atmosphere, suspense and the "me vs. them" idea, having a co-op sidekick tagging along with me through the game would diminish these qualities

Have you ever heard of System Shock 2? Co-op mode was added in a patch 2-3 months later, and it instantly became a hit. System Shock 2 was one of the most atmospheric games ever (in fact, Gamespot's "Game Collector" or whatever includes it on the list), and co-op mode was even more tense and exciting.

Just thought I'd point out that "loss of atmosphere" in co-op play is complete nonsense..

tulwinn
11-21-2001, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by jipe:
<STRONG>

Have you ever heard of System Shock 2? Co-op mode was added in a patch 2-3 months later, and it instantly became a hit. System Shock 2 was one of the most atmospheric games ever (in fact, Gamespot's "Game Collector" or whatever includes it on the list), and co-op mode was even more tense and exciting.

Just thought I'd point out that "loss of atmosphere" in co-op play is complete nonsense..</STRONG>


Absolutely, played coop with my g/f and it took us a month or so, great atmosphere and lots of fun. Could only play it on hard mode so was NOT easy because there were two of us.

Khaliban
11-21-2001, 08:16 PM
I like the idea of a patch and/or expansion pack. Even if it's a hack, it would be worth it. My only experience in coop is Baldur's Gate, but the more people you had playing the game, the more fun it became.

StephenG
11-21-2001, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by mostly harmless:
<STRONG>
Absolutely, played coop with my g/f and it took us a month or so, great atmosphere and lots of fun. Could only play it on hard mode so was NOT easy because there were two of us.</STRONG>

i got SS2 but i was too scared to play it. but when coop came all that changed. i had a friend watching my back and i wasn't as scared cause i had a friend with me.

tulwinn
11-29-2001, 04:56 PM
Just looked on Blues News and there is a coop mod out now for Deus Ex whch I didnt buy when it came out... I will now go out and buy it... just for the powers that be that dont think its a selling point ;-)

Agen
11-29-2001, 05:47 PM
Just a suggestion but what about after u release jk2 (probably applies to lec) Raven could make a mod for co-op therefore they will be meeting their deadline and if jk2 makes enough money and is good enough (which i'm sure it will be) they could start a co-op mod and then release it (for money or free download either way i'll egt it) Shoudl be great fun. I remember even quake had co-op mode and if someone got stuck that's them screwed. BUT u could paly all maps in quake over mp so it was ismply jsut givinbg an adjective. if jk2 is like jk the maps won't be with the ordianry game.

StormHammer
11-29-2001, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Agen_Terminator:
Just a suggestion but what about after u release jk2 (probably applies to lec) Raven could make a mod for co-op therefore they will be meeting their deadline and if jk2 makes enough money and is good enough (which i'm sure it will be) they could start a co-op mod and then release it (for money or free download either way i'll egt it)

I agree it would be a great way to do it, Terminator...but I think there would be problems. :(

First of all, to put Co-op in the game after release would mean going through all the levels and redesigning them slightly, rebalancing enemy/weapon/ammo ratios, putting in multi-spawn points for players, and a whole lot of other stuff I probably wouldn't understand. Suffice to say, it would probably take several months to do it justice.
While there may not be a physical or technical barrier to eventually doing it...it might be a problem for Raven. Would they be able to allocate that additional time, with all their other projects on the boil?

It would also have to be LEC's decision, I guess - and they may not be willing to fundamentally redesign some core elements, especially if JK2 does well.

I remember the headaches HumanHead had with Rune, when they released a patch that changed some game dynamics. There was uproar among the gamers - and it divided the community. I'd hate to see that happen to this community.

That's why I think some add-on missions specifically created with co-op in mind would be a better idea. And I don't just mean a few MP levels stiched together, I mean a cohesive plot, and a few missions across a few levels each.

It wouldn't bother me if I had to pay for it, either. :)

Emon
12-01-2001, 11:35 PM
Of course there won't be co-op. It runs on dedicated servers. I can't imagine joining in a server and just starting to play co-op...not many people are into that. Instead team DM and their CTF should make up for it. The saber-only DM w/ force must really kickass since we haven't heard of any new innovated gameplay types.

GonkH8er
12-02-2001, 04:04 AM
The co-op wouldnt be on dedicated servers. I assume, if it was implemented (which it is not going to be) then it would be via direct net connection with at least a cable modem, or probably most likely over a LAN.

Terminator
12-02-2001, 02:27 PM
It could also be done by ip.... done it in rouge spear me and my cous were farting abotu over the network and then we treid connecting with our modems and donig it that way.. it worked but much better over network no lag.

BigE
12-06-2001, 12:30 PM
I played co-op with Unreal (lots of times, really great game, might also go and play it in the add-on as people modded the maps.), played it in Alien vs Predator (it was a hack, it was easy, but it was VERY much fun, AvP is one scary game and it rocked to play it with friends) and with Duke Nukem 3D and Perfect Dark on the N64.

Needless to say, co-op is the best invention ever made. It makes a game increadibly more fun to play (especially fps's) and it should be implemented in every game released. Really. And its a great selling point also.

I'm hoping for a mod for JK2 to include co-op play. We can not live without it ;) Maybe even a counter-co-op mod like they had in Perfect Dark, where the counter player spawns as a NPC character (would be a ST in JK2) and tries to kill the main player with his only gun. After death the counter player spawns as a new NPC character. This is way original and very much fun also.

Ushgarak
12-15-2001, 11:24 AM
Well, I'd certainly put my name on a list of people that would like a co-op mode. Also appreciating that it would be impractical for the single-player campaign.

Heck, even some decent AI bots with decent multiplayer mode that I can team up with my friends and play against would do.

Some dedicated scenarios, like a recreation of the Theed bnattle, or some of the new ones in Attack of the Clones, would be even better...

CaptainRAVE
12-15-2001, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by BigE
I played co-op with Unreal (lots of times, really great game, might also go and play it in the add-on as people modded the maps.), played it in Alien vs Predator (it was a hack, it was easy, but it was VERY much fun, AvP is one scary game and it rocked to play it with friends) and with Duke Nukem 3D and Perfect Dark on the N64.

Indeed AvP was scary, shame I didnt know about Co-op in those days.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, I'd certainly put my name on a list of people that would like a co-op mode. Also appreciating that it would be impractical for the single-player campaign.

Heck, even some decent AI bots with decent multiplayer mode that I can team up with my friends and play against would do.

Some dedicated scenarios, like a recreation of the Theed bnattle, or some of the new ones in Attack of the Clones, would be even better...

You mean like set up a partition or something?? Hey, id put my name down :)

Ushgarak
12-15-2001, 06:33 PM
Well, you know what it is like with petitions. For each intelligent one there are a dozen or more stupid ones; to the point where they ALL get ignored.

Too many games come out without even a vague concession towards co-op mode these days, but I feel it is because that co-op simply isn't popular enough amongst the deathmatch-hungry gamers of today.

So I think the best hope (same for AVP2) is for someone to make good quality bots for the game. Then so long as the team deathmatch options are good, you can have fun teaming up against teams of AI bots.

(BTW, the problem with the AVP 'hack' (it was actually a very simple process of re-naming files) is that the levels never quite worked properly- a lot of the triggers didn't activate.)

Actually, it was a fairly simple process to adjust Jedi Knight levels to be played co-operatively. But there were very weird sync problems with enemies, and things like door switches didn't operate. Shame.