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View Full Version : How to Balance The Saber and Guns in JK2


Agen
11-30-2001, 02:40 PM
I was wondering about how you'd be able to balance the guns and the saber in jk2.
In JK u simply got a big gun called a conc that fires blue stuff and went crazy and killed everything in your way. The saber posed the least threat as you would jsut run a few meters away then start shooting crap out of them while the saber pitifully swings hurting nothing except stray germs flying through the air. So how do you think you would be able to balance it os you won't jsut use the Bigggest moronic killing gun ever(ok maybe not as bad as the redeemer).
But you don't want the saber to become a all round god like staff!
I'd like to see your views and maybe we can give raven a few good ideas and tips.

digl
11-30-2001, 02:55 PM
maybe some kind of force protection (that consumes lots of mana) that "magnetically seals" you, and weapons fire bounce back from you. This could work for all weapons except TDs

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: digl ]

The_WAH
11-30-2001, 02:57 PM
Perhaps it would make the game more balanced if you could block more weapons with your saber in JKII than in JK (I think there were only about 4 weapons you could actually block in JK) Of course you wouldn't be able to block non-energy weapons (like thermals and such, they'd probably blow up if you tried) but one of the few problems I had with JK was that blocking was very rarely used. I saw in some E3 footage gave the saber more functions (like saber throw) so it could be a more verstile weapon than it was before. I hope anyway.

BTW... I'm a new guy, even though I never posted anything I've been a lurker around here for quite some time.

digl
11-30-2001, 03:01 PM
welcome The_WAH
Wait for stormhammer with his welcome medallions and Jedi Knight_114 gift baskets. You should get them during the day :D

Saber throwing was in mots, but It seems Its better now

Good point blocking more weapons, but Itd look weird i.e. blocking the conc or rail or a similar weapon

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: digl ]

Agen
11-30-2001, 03:09 PM
Welcome to jk2.net hope u enjoy the hype.
Yeh the saber has saber throw and such and it has been confirmed that u can stop T.Ds by using foce push to get them away but liek everything it's bound to not owrk soemtimes.
But things liek the conc couln't have been stopped mainly because it was compressed air.i don't think foce push would stop the rocket launcher but it has blanced the game by much i suspect.
The Flechette has cannot be stopped by a saber as it jsut bursts everything out and i'd imagine it's liek the flak cannon in UT.
But i'd like to see some sort of warning when someone ahs fired and it relativly coming in ur direction.
So when someone has fired an energy weapon there will be an on-screen warning and if ur quick enoguh u'll be able to jump outo f the way.
Also since we're using ghoul 2 what about u can knock the saber out of ur opponents hand if u hit hish and (probably applies to multilpayer more) and also when u use force push hew drops his gun and isntead of bringing out fists u could jsut see your hand and then it woydl let you climg away or start fighting.

Omedarcus
11-30-2001, 05:08 PM
I want it to be like the only weapon in the game. It should be like in the beginning of Episode 1 where all these droids are shooting at Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and the two of them block the droids and kick their butts with just the lightsabers.

I've never seen Obi-Wan Kenobi need a rocket launcher, so why should any Jedi? :D. JK2 should prove Obi-Wan's description in Episode 4, that the lightsaber is better than any blaster or anything else.

It'd be cool to be able to fight a whole load of stormtroopers and kill them all without losing health, unlike in JK1 & MotS where you'd take a lot of damage and couldn't kill them all. I'm basing this statement on just the JK1 & MotS demos, so I could be wrong :D

Kwup
11-30-2001, 05:22 PM
jedi are pussies

they have to use the force (AKA cheats) to kill stuff

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: RaoK ]

SlowbieOne
11-30-2001, 05:33 PM
Jedi are what?

I'm sorry but that's pretty uncalled for. If you think Jedi's are weak, then why are you here? Why not go play some other game? This is JK2, starring, you guessed it, a Jedi. I think you're jealous of Jedi cause YOU can't use the force. :)

I prefer balance, but if they are gonna make one weapon dominant like they did with the Conc., I say make the Saber more powerful than anything.

I plan on saber dueling more than anything anyway.

digl
11-30-2001, 05:39 PM
I want it to be like the only weapon in the game. It should be like in the beginning of Episode 1 where all these droids are shooting at Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and the two of them block the droids and kick their butts with just the lightsabers.

Sorry but I dont agree at all
As Iv stated hundreds of times, IMO what made JK so good and so popular was Its variety
You had weapons, saber, and the force. And you could mix them as you wanted to
Play NF saber, NF guns, FF saber, FF guns, or everything at the same time, It had something for everyone. I want the same and more in outcast

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: digl ]

Agen
11-30-2001, 05:57 PM
I want it to be like the only weapon in the game. It should be like in the beginning of Episode 1 where all these droids are shooting at Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and the two of them block the droids and kick their butts with just the lightsabers.
No i have to strongly disagree with you there as i was a ff gunner in jk and i woudln't want jk2 to be just a saber game. if u want that then Jedi Power Battles is for you.
JK was so popular because u could choose. You could choose force. You could choose your looks. You could choose you saber. You could choose to use your saber. You could choose to use guns. You could choose not to use the force.You could choose to use the force. U had the choice. Jk was good because it was you choosing what u want to be, much liek Black and White, You are supposed to be a god but You are really udnerneath what ur creature is.
JK had a variety and how hard is it to kill a heap of metal that shoots at u. 1 jedi blocks one jedi kills.
In jk2 u can go through the whole game with just your saber or jsut with guns. You don't even need to use the force. JK2 is resembling this because this is what made JK so good. You have to balance and i don't think you're going to balance liek they way u said it. I don't want anything to dominate. JK was perfect gameplay almost except for the unbalancing. Raven has a big job to balance this.
We're with you alll the way raven (except to the toilet :D)

Cartman's Dad
11-30-2001, 08:12 PM
Well in all of the 9 posts there's been some quite good ideas.
I think we should have a thing were everytime u use the biggest gun u can get it takes off some of your shield.

Agen
11-30-2001, 08:21 PM
Yeh there should be some way someway to penalise people for being unfair by using the meanest gun. For MP only though because ur only hurting the comp in sp.
Like what about taking off some er.. i dunno soemthing.

Moradivh
12-01-2001, 01:34 AM
In the original JK, sabers were a joke. You only used them for bosses, or when you're looking for a "special challenge." As for the other 90% of the game, guns were best. And only 2 of them, the BIGGEST guns. How stupid is that?

Why should the dev's waste time designing weapons so pathetically weak that nobody with intentions of survival actually use them?

Drawing upon the movies (and looking at the game's title - JEDI KNIGHT), one might conclude that lightsabers should be all-powerful. But that's idiotic too.

Weapons require BALANCE. Do you have any idea how much more fun the original JK would've been if everything was JUST as dangerous? I might still be playing the game now, 4 years later.

I don't have a beef with rewarding the player with better weapons as they progress through the game. Maybe the first one or two guns Kyle finds will be crappy. But it's a stupid waste of resources to design EVERY gun, except two, so they'll only be used for an hour, and practically never again in solo OR multiplayer.

The lightsaber should ALWAYS be dangerous, no matter who you're fighting, no matter what weapon he has. A saber should be as practical as any conc rifle or rocket launcher. But it shouldn't be BETTER than these weapons.

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: The_Line ]

StormHammer
12-01-2001, 01:44 AM
Hmmm, interesting points raised so far.

The best way I can see around it if there is going to be a powerful weapon like the conc, is that there should be either a limit to the ammo available on the level, or it should in a hard location to reach, or maybe give it a slower rate of fire...or perhaps the weapon starts to overheat the more you use it, and inflicts damage on the user. That was a feature I liked in Gunman Chronicles. ;)

That way, although you could use a really powerful weapon, it would have it's drawbacks.

Of course, that would only limit the weapons use, and not provide a defence against it, but it could potentially offer more balance.


The_WAH...I have welcomed you in another thread. ;)

Omedarcus
12-01-2001, 01:53 AM
I agree with The Line, it's a Jedi game so using some laser rocket launcher (the concusion rifle) is out of place. I could see if this was Shadows of the Empire 2 or something and we're talking about Dash Rendar using guns, then it'd be cool. But Kyle Katarn is now this strong Jedi, like Obi-Wan young & old, therefore the lightsaber should be the most important weapon and the most fun :D. I also agree that the JK1 lightsaber was a joke. The JK2 saber should be ....I know I keep referring to it...a "laser sword" version of a powered up Heretic II blade

thrEEpaGe
12-01-2001, 02:02 AM
the idea of 'penalizing' people for using the decent guns is idiotic!

and no, that's not an opinion!

first of all, there already is a penalty..splash damage! you can kill yourself easily with the CR unless you know how to shoot it (i never do, but im elite :cool: )...the saberers, imo dont understand the eliteness of the jk1 CR...it owned!

second of all, if you were to penalize someone for that, it would be from the recoil, and since they obviously have more advanced technology than us, they obvioulsy would have some kind of recoil absorption system (heck i think at least ONE person has that now)..

and if you want to go play sabers, just get on a dedicated servers that disallows all guns and go saber away to your heart's content =)

the whole problem i saw with jk1 saber whiners was when they would come into oasis (any version) and complain when you were owning them away with the cr when they had a saber (or any other non splash damage gun)....in ji, for instance, you are given opportunity to get and keep the cr, and was pointless not to use it [due to it being incredibly time consuming to use say the repeater only with jk's lag])

anyway, thats my 2 cents..we need splash damage in JKO!!!!

as for the single player, the CR wasnt available until the middle of the game...and even then, power cells were scarce (i only played hard difficulty)....and by doing that they made each shot count!

i would even venture to say that the saber is UNFAIR! eventually, the power source on a light saber would run out! you dont need batteries to maintain your lightsaber. therefore, the saber is unfair, and the CR is completely fair!

okay maybe im a little off base on that last one, but im a debater....leave me alone

anyway, thats my opinion =)

TrUeFoRcE
12-01-2001, 02:49 AM
i hope they dont put another force power liek force protection in jk2, that just got annoying getting all ur shots deflected and thats all the person had to do was press a key and activate it..atleast if they have it make they should it last a very short time or something...

Moradivh
12-01-2001, 03:32 AM
Thanks, Omedarcus and thrEEpaGe, for representing the two opposite extremes of this issue: the crazed gun fanatics and radical saber-lovers.

So what's my bias? Well, I played a lot of multiplayer JK. I know how all the weapons worked. I played FF, NF, sabers-only, and no-restriction games. I could hold my own in conc-rifle deathmatches, but my favorite games were no-force lightsaber duels. I got to the top 40 on Case's Ladder with just my sword, and could've got a lot better if I had more interest.

I'm also a fan of realism in games, and balance (duh). It saddened me to see hordes of Jedi get gunned down by some prancing idiot with a rocket launcher. I was horrified by the sheer uselessness of trying to deflect gunfire with a saber. I wept at the suckiness of Chewbacca's bowcaster rifle (that gun should OWN!!!). And seriously: why does Kyle persist on carrying around his trademark "Brayer pistol" if it's such a puny gun? I don't care how sentimental it is: the guy's LIFE is in danger. And another thing... why would the Empire, a regime with enough resources to build DEATH STARS, equip their entire military force with the suckiest, most pathetic firearm in the galaxy: the Stormtrooper rifle?

Anyway, realism's a whole other can of beans, and very dependent on one's point of view.

Omeda, I'm glad you liked my post, but you missed the point. I have nothing against guns, and I said explicitly that sabers should NOT be better than everything else.

I loved the guns in JK. They were HELLA' fun to use, had some wicked concepts built around them. But they weren't balanced, especially in multiplayer -- and multiplay is the one true test of a shooter's longevity.

Examples: chewie's bowcaster was the only gun that could bounce off walls and multishot, but it STILL couldn't hit anything. Meanwhile, the concussion rifle was a 100% accurate, far-reaching, exploding superweapon. There was usually plenty of ammo for it on multiplayer maps, and if you did manage to run dry, you could just force-speed and hide from your enemy until the ammo respawned. In games like this, there were two options of play: to use the conc rifle, or to die.

And the lightsaber? HAAA HAHAHAA. Out of the 8 or 9 moves you could do with it, only ONE was remotely dangerous (the double-swing), and even that couldn't kill another player with one hit. Plus the greenest newbie in the universe could dodge your swing and vaporize you with a concussion rifle at 500 yards.

You see, I don't want the lightsaber to make a player invincible. I don't want a mega-uber wookie gun. I'm only asking for these weapons to STAND A CHANCE, to be something other than suicidal.

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: The_Line ]

DeathBoLT
12-01-2001, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by TrUeFoRcE:
<STRONG>i hope they dont put another force power liek force protection in jk2, that just got annoying getting all ur shots deflected and thats all the person had to do was press a key and activate it..atleast if they have it make they should it last a very short time or something...</STRONG>

You can knock out protection with 2-3 conc/rail shots or a few saber strikes combined with direct destruction hits.

If they're stupid or extremely low on force and don't have absorb activated, you can also simply pull their gun and/or blind them.

DeathBoLT
12-01-2001, 04:58 AM
The storm trooper rifle wasn't made powerful enough in Jedi Knight.. however, in closed area, it did have a stun effect and if you can get close enough to them for a few seconds, you can easily score a kill against a conc-yielding player who can't fire at you without hitting himself very easily.

In the movies, its a strong weapon..
at least for your typical boarding operations, closed area fighting, etc.
And you also didn't see everyone wielding grenade launcher/artillery type deals(concs)..

Terminator
12-01-2001, 07:38 PM
but they even gave the conc an advantage.. the secondary fire gave it no splash weapon.

The_WAH
12-01-2001, 07:47 PM
I think the programmers originally intended the 8 power cell drain of the conc to be its disadvantage, but in multiplayer it was easy enough to find ammo and it only took a couple shots to kill someone with it. Now if they made the big weapon in JKII similar to the BFG was in QuakeIII you could only find the BFG in one place on the map and the ammo was very hard to find. I guess this would make it perhaps more balanced. In order to use the weapon efficently you would have to be a good shot otherwise your dead. (It sucks when you run out of ammo and your only other weapon is a pea-shooter)

Kurt Plummer
12-01-2001, 08:18 PM
Some Ideas Again (sorry, a few repeats...).

First off, you folks are going too directly at the problem IMO. You need to back off and go-round the edges to accept 'entertainment' as much as intensity effects.

1. Shields: everyone or noone.
Again, 'just because you're a great hero'... Doesn't mean that everyone else is just cannonfodder to make your legend.
So /some/ NPCs (Non Player Characters) should have their own shields and need 8-10 hits to represent random 'miniboss', in-level, equivalents to your character, as if they are having their own adventure-of-a-lifetime fate, only working for the other side.

2. Who Whut Where.
Whether 'reflective' of armoring or actual energy shielding, basic personal protection should also be classed by character and encounter environment. Clothed characters like civillians, criminals or officer corps should be '1 hit kills'. So too, IMO, should Jedi.

These should form the majority of encounter groups you meet because armor or shields should raise eyebrows in a 'normal' environs and in mil vs. mil they tend to cancel out do to greater firepower.

To make the a shieldless Jedi worthwhile, instantaneous reaction (force predict) should be tied to a fixed number of blocked-bolts-per-second or say 40` incident arrival angle.

So you may not necessarily be /surprised/ (and hence don't need to worry about sniper kills) but your Sabre skills are very vulnerable to overload from spread defilade crossfires and multiple shooters, especially early on.

Most certainly ST's should take more hits than black shirts to kill to. I /hated/ this in JK1, it made NO sense.

3. Evade or Stagger, Not Drop Dead.
Our own Specfor troops now have 'RBA' or Ranger Body Armor. This is because they often are far from home or help and MUST maintain the spirit of assault (i.e. 'storm') in cases of random hits until an objective is taken by fire and shock.

RBA is actually quite effective at stopping midrange assault rifle fire which is not specifically 'armor piercing'.

But that round still has the decelerative physics of a half ounce, moving at a half mile per second, and stopping in a half inch.

To put it simply: _It **HURTS LIKE HELL** 2B Hit_.

When concentrated enough as a plasma 'blaster' pulse, energy works the same way (i.e. it has a physical inertia as well as incendiary effect, see the Millenium Falcon getting bounced around by Star Destroyer fire).

Between these two effects, armor should function more like a second-chance 'warning flag' so that you WANT TO DUCK when hit.
Especially if you can get behind cover and continue to lay down supporting fire, you are still 'doing your job' while the 'future medics' (other rifleman) finish theirs.

Impie Armor especially should be similar to this, gradually disabling unless you are hit in specific areas (broken neck from head blast, shattered arm from gun-around-obstacle hit or similar).

Not always killing but certainly something that a good bacta tank visit might be warranted for recovery from.

4. Not all Guns Are Equal...
ANY modern gunpowder driven weapon will kill you, given it's aimed straight, and at the right point.

But that doesn't keep people from designing new ones for a perceived incremental improvement or because of fashion/cultural differences.

A .22 Saturday Night Special revolver will kill anyone inside 10ft if you empty the cylinder. At 20ft you may not even hit them.

The classic '.45' ACP will knock you on your butt from 50yds with an incredible wallop but it won't go through most of the higher end vests from 20.

An assault rifle which fires that same '.22' caliber round at about four times the muzzle velocity will do for you at 400m, 800m if you are given optics and some specialist training.

You may not be able to find a .22 SDS outside of the large American metroplis', you certainly may not be able to find a .45 in the heart of Russia. You probably /won't/ find an M-16 anywhere outside a military arsenal.

But there will be 'close equivalents'.

We should be forced to similar 'make do' varieties of weapons and milspec graded varieties should actually be very hard to come up with or 'carry through a spaceport inspection' on a lot of planets.

Instead, we should have a nearly endless variety of semiauto or restricted-power, '3 round burst', pistol-type weapons with changes in color and length of bolt, recoil and dispersion and shock, thermal and penetrative damage. Both for and against us.

Impies should come later with more advanced blaster and a _very few_ 'assault' (ATGW or LAW/RPG type systems) backing them up.

5. Sighting Aids DO Help.
Like I've said before, I enjoy the 'awareness' sense of external F1 view. It helps my SA and improves the walking-in-movie enviro-entertainment factors of all that pretty virtual set design. But I never play with guns out side of 1st person because it's impossible to 'feel' the exact aimpoint of your gun.

With that in mind it would do a LOT of good to have a 'Bionic Armbrace' to help hold guns more steady and a 'Death Dot' bore-dot to help us _AIM STRAIGHT_, in game.

Though I despise the 'Easter Bunny' effects of casually room-inhabitive shields etc. I /do like/ finding more than just ammo among the dead to add to my own arsenal. Especially if I have to finagle it a bit to make it work (a good opportunity for a short animation as you gun is 'upgraded').

Some enemies should also have these so that bursts of rounds come in a lot more densely clustered than others do and I suppose if you die you should lose at least some of your stuff.

6. Differing Paths To Enlightenment.
Especially if this could be worked into separate plotlines, I see NO PROBLEM making some people mundane-but-mean-as-a-snake vs. the sly-but-a-little-light-on-firepower Jedi.

Purely through a "You can't leap tall buildings with more than 2 weapons" weighting.

While I almost exclusively fight as a Jedi now because I have Saber-X and some experience, I know that it would have been nearly impossible for me to win as a blade-only warrior, let alone at the speeds I try to maintain per level, my first time out.

Especially when it's so FUN to armageddon it!:-)

As such, I don't see why you couldn't blast your way through checkpoints (you would Jedi-normally only 'I'm a civillian!' walk past) with a horde of weapons that set off every security alarm in the joint and a 'yeah right, come get sum...' carefree glee.

As long as those weapons are ENERGY blockable or MASS (force) shuntable within the limits of saturation that a single Jedi could successfully face in the NPC equivalents, there should be no problemo in SP.

In MP, let people set up the artificial rules they think best, you put up with the club or you don't join up.


Okay, that about covers it...;-) Kurt P

Terminator
12-01-2001, 08:32 PM
Alot of that was good and i agree with most and also the realistic factor about how much u can jump while carrying a bazooka on ur back. In jk u could have very gun and jump some 30 feet. if u were wearing jsut clothes that's posssible for a jedi but een if ur a jedi carrying so many guns is half impossible.
Also i'd like to see a bit where ur in position where u either have to giver up ur guns to egt away or carry on and take the lnog way.. or in multiplay there could be a "bribe" factor.. where there is a jedi and u have to jump to get out but u are carrying all ur guns and have to ditch them or fight the opposing jedi by taking out ur lightsaber and carrying lots of guns slows down ur performance with the lightsaber.
Anyway i think we have some good ideas and since we're using ghoul 2 shouldn't we be able to have amazing falls like when u fall off somewhere and u land on ur head and break it and obviously ur dead and ur body bounces up and then slumps to the ground in style. but we can keep it realistic rather than having bouncy balls flying everywhere as soon as u have a slight fall.

Emon
12-01-2001, 11:04 PM
If Raven knows what they are doing, it'll probably be like this: Your a gunner, with a full weapon loadout. You see a Jedi with his saber ignited running at you. You run. FAST.

I hope they do class play in MP, like in MotS, but more balanced. They should make it so you can be a variety of gunners or a Jedi.

They will at least have balanced weapons in MP, for sure. If they don't it's gonna kill it just like JK.

toms
12-02-2001, 04:29 PM
maybe the bigger guns should reduce your speed when you have them equiped? i am sure a few games have done that.

you wouldn't really be able to run that fast with a rocket launcher on your shoulder... ;)

madrebel
12-03-2001, 08:56 PM
ok first off lets get something straight.

a force wielding jedi knight game is no place for realism. just stop even mentioning realism. there are plenty of realisitc games/mods out there go play one of those if you want realism. I for one am so over joyed that a game is coming out NOT based on realism.

So having said that let me repost what i posted before the forums got upgraded and i think i lost what i posted.

*former post*
In single player, all the weapons, besides the bow caster, were all good and useful. If you had problems using any of the guns in single player...well im not sure what to tell you practice your aim i guess.

Now, we all need to remember why all but 3 weapons were useless in multiplayer, the crappy netcode. Now if you dont remember how Jedi Knight works ill remind you all. THe picture of the enemy character on your screen was not actually where that enemy character was unless he was in fact standing still. JK used a "ghost prediction" system.

This system rendered hit-scan weapons, and prediction weapons(st rifle/repeater....) completely useless because you never knew exactly where to aim, unless.......unless you were on a lan. Because on a lan the pings were so low what you saw was actually where that person was standing.

SO since the "smaller" weapons were useless, everyone used mines, rail gun, and conc rifle. Since these dealt area damage you could shoot to where they were going to be and still register damage.

The Q3 engine will make a huge diffference in online play balance since what you see is always where you need to shoot.

p.s. i really hope the mines are in JKO :fett:

ReAcToR
12-04-2001, 02:59 PM
It seems that my post was deleted in the upgrade...it was rather long too and I don't have time to retype all of that. :(

I'll just summarize...

Making weapons of equal strength doesn't balance a game. To balance a game, you would want some of the weapons to be more powerful than other weapons. JK/MotS were both somewhat balanced. To compensate for the weaker weapons, you would simply make it possible to evade and attack in other ways. They did this in JK/MotS. You were able to use the Force to evade and attack regardless of what weapon you had. With the Force as your ally, you were able to attack and evade your opponent rather easily if you were of equal skill. All of the weapons in JK/MotS were effective in certain situations. Some people seem to think that if a newbie with a Lightsaber can't kill an expert with a Concussion Rifle, that the game isn't balanced. You must achieve a certain skill-level before the game becomes balanced. To make the game balanced at such a low skill-level would only ruin the fun for the more serious players.

You are armed only with a Blaster and your opponent has a Concussion Rifle? What are you whinning about? Get busy and learn some good old-fashioned deathmatch skills. Simply use a little stealth, evade your opponent for a few minutes and pick up what weapons you can in the meantime. It's quite easy to get kills in all of the LEC maps with the weaker weapons, it's just not easy for people who haven't acheived a certain skill-level. You don't need a Concussion Rifle to kill someone of equal skill with a Concussion Rifle. That is just a popular misconception that has been going around since the birth of JK/MotS. It's easier for people to deem a game unbalanced than to spend the time to make it balanced. I can't count how many times I've killed skilled players with mines and other weapons. They have a Concussion Rifle and are camping the catwalk in Canyon Oasis? Big crap. You may die a few times before you can take their pack away from them but it isn't impossible.

In my experience, most FPS games have been somewhat balanced. No game is perfect, but I just hope that some of you will realize that there is more to making a game balanced than making the weapons of equal strenght. One of the best ways, in my opinion, to make a game balanced, is to make it where there is always a way to evade death if you can outsmart your opponent. One of the easiest ways to do this is to have an advanced movement system and effective manuevering capabilities(rolling, flipping and crouching).

I don't have time to go into any more detail, it's time for class. I have 1 term paper due today, 2 tomorrow and 4 exams tomorrow(all within 10 minutes of one another). :(

Make it stop!

BigE
12-04-2001, 03:39 PM
Hi, Im new at this forum. I have been playing Jedi Knight a few years ago (it was my first multiplayer experience). After that I moved to play Unreal Tournament CTF. Which I am very good at ( ;) ) and now I feel its time to await the arrival of Jedi Knight 2.

About the lightsaber in JKI. I can understand its a pain in the ass to use in multiplayer with concussion spamming newbies ;) but it owned in singeplayer. I just recently played the game at hard difficulty and had no problem playing it entirely with the lightsaber ( I did use weapons for taking out turrets, probes and AT-ST's ofcourse ). My trick was to use Force pull in combination with the lightsabers [ not so good ] reflectiveness. Anyone carrying a gun that I could reflect would lose their weapon and get slain just after. The other enemies I would either evade to get up close or use my guns on. It worked deliciously ;)

Anyway. I hope for very many different moves with the lightsaber then just the 2 we had in JKI. No splash damage guns and increased gun accuracy. :) That would make this game perfectly balanced. :)

Agen
12-04-2001, 04:05 PM
No splash damage guns and increased gun accuracy. That would make this game perfectly balanced.

Have to disagree with you there because what about people who don't have cabel (like me) non-splash weapons aren't always useful.
Q3 seemed to handle this very badly about the lag as u would jsut be stuck but UT was decent..... u msut have splash damage weapons.. u can't demolish them completely.

Moradivh
12-04-2001, 07:55 PM
Too bad... there were a couple of good posts deleted in this thread. Ah well.

Weapon balance assumes one thing: that the opponents are EQUAL IN SKILL with their respective weapons. And balance does NOT mean "make every weapon exactly the same."

Not counting the visual effect of every gun, here's just a few balancing factors that can be tweaked to make weapons unique, yet equally useful in most combat situations:
- Range
- Accuracy
- Speed of projectile (leading the target)
- Reload time
- Firing rate
- Damage
- Path of projectile (i.e. grenades, heat-seekers, etc.)
- Countdown timers
- Kickback
- Stickiness of projectile (i.e. rail detonator, wall mines)
- Area of effect
- Ammo consumption rate
- Secondary function

And then there's economic factors:
- Ammo supply on maps
- Weapon accessability on maps
- Weapon cost (like in Counter-Strike)

Now, it's true that weapons are NOT equal in real life. But realistically, if the Concussion Rifle was as amazing in the SW movies as it was in the original JK, then EVERY Stormtrooper would be carrying one. Like I said earlier, if the Empire had enough resources to build DEATH STARS, they could equip their infantry with conc rifles.

And don't give me any garbage about the conc rifle being "balanced if there wasn't any lag." Trust me, it'd STILL be overpowered, mostly because players ran fast enough to dodge every other gunshot, especially with force-run-and-jump. And with a Bowcaster, it was hard enough to shoot anyone in SINGLEPLAYER. Lag was one of many unbalancing factors, and not the greatest of them.

The dev's did TRY to balance weapons like the conc rifle. They gave it a slower firing rate than other guns. They made it more of an ammo hog. Good ideas both, but they weren't taken far enough. They certainly weren't designed for multiplay.

But people are asking... why bother? Why is saber/gun balance so important? After all, you could just join "saber only" games if you want to use sabers. Or you could make your own MODs and play the game however you want.

Well, here's why you should bother:

To have more of a game. To maximize the its fun and replayability for the greatest amount of people. To get as much done RIGHT the first time as possible. To keep more players interested longer. And to discourage the online community from splitting into tiny, isolated cult followings.

madrebel
12-04-2001, 08:09 PM
i have to disagree with the conc being overpowered.

It is supposed to be the most powerful gun. BUT at close range it is easily outclassed by the rail. The rail had less splash damage but a much greater point of impact damage, whereas the conc was pretty much equal damage through out the blast radius.

The conc rifle was the best gun...as is every games BIG gun. Thats the way it should be.

And yes, good netcode will help a great deal to balance the game.

full force guns although great fun was a joke. Every weapon save the conc rifle was worthless(mines worked well too) for one reason. You couldnt friggin hit due to lag. With Q3 netcode the repeater and rifle would be alot easier to hit a target with.

Moradivh
12-04-2001, 09:13 PM
<madrebel>The conc rifle was the best gun...as is every games BIG gun. Thats the way it should be.

The way it "should" be? Why?

Maybe from a singleplayer perspective, yes -- guns are designed so they're only useful until a better gun is found, as a kind of progressive reward system. The big gun is the ultimate reward.

But multiplayer is a whole other can of beans. EVERY weapon is available to you almost from the start. So 99% of gamers will just ignore the other 20 guns Raven so painfully designed for them and swarm for the BIG GUN. It's the weapon that gives them the highest score, the greatest respect, and they can't fit in with the other l33ts without it.

Of course, battles with only ONE weapon get old after a short time. Some players might try the other guns, and endure the embarassment of being a loser... for a while. Others will try those "saber only" games, or maybe a mod, but A LOT of players will just quit JK2 and play some other game. And that's not good.

There's tons of different multiplayer options, of course. In Counter-Strike, you need to make some cash before you can buy the bigger guns. That's one of the "economic" forms of weapon balancing I mentioned, and a damn fine system.

But I doubt the average JK2 match will work like Counter-Strike, but rather like the original JK. I'm sure there'll be mods, but you probably won't "purchase" weapons in most games.

And frankly, I don't like environmental or economic restrictions made for the sake of weapon balance. It makes simple map-making too complicated, and the system too easily exploitable.

Instead of reducing the ammo for the BIG GUN or disallowing it on most maps, I'd rather see every weapon have its use, no matter who you're up against, no matter what gun he has. Not in EVERY situation, mind you (I wouldn't want to fire a conc rifle at point-blank range, or use a grenade launcher as a sniper rifle), but EVERY weapon should be handy at least 20-50% of the time.

As an example... the Bowcaster in JK. It was useful about 0% of the time. There was not a single situation where it was tactically better than another gun, or not one that I've ever enountered. The rail detonator, on the other hand, might have been equal to the conc rifle if there wasn't any lag. But guns like the repeater and ST rifle just couldn't compare, even in no-force matches, even with no lag. And I won't even mention Kyle Katarn's weapon of choice: the brayer pistol.

On another note, I have nothing against specialty weapons (like a grenade, for instance). But most guns should be multi-purpose, unless you're designing a game where EVERY weapon is a specialty weapon.

madrebel
12-04-2001, 09:37 PM
look....you must not be very good. that isnt a bad thing you have a right to your opinion and a right to expect a fun game.

example:

last night i player JK online for the first time in ages. i was playing NF guns with some extremely good players. This one guy was using the bowcaster very effectively. Bowcaster is best used as a weapon of either extreme close range or as a weapon of surprise. Plain and simple.

Ill say it again because you obviously arent getting the point.

the repeater and the ST rifle as well as the bowcaster would/will be alot more useful on the Q3 engine. The netcode makes weapons like that quite good for finishing weapons or as last chance suicide close range weapons. That is all they should be.(exclamation on the period) Name 1 game where you have one of the 3 weakest weapons and youre going up against someone with one of the top 2 weapons and have a snow flakes chance in hell of routinely getting the victory.

See thats what youre missing...level design/item placement dictates game play. Good DM players learn how to control the map. They learn how to get the good items and how to either defend or attack the good items. If you arent comfortable playing at that kinda hardcore level then im sorry, but dont whine. I gotta tell ya im not willing to play like that, but i dont cry game balance when someone who is that hardcore beats me. I try and win on my aiming ability alone mostly :fett:

Counter-Strike has a lame...albeit useful system. Its lame for this reason, its a reality based mod correct? So why does a counter terrorist soldier not have access to a counter terrorist organization's bank roll? That is a weak way to balance a game IMO its artificial. That and im so sick of counter-strike. Screw counter-strike i dont want a Star Wars Jedi-Knight shooter to have anything to do with a reality based shooter.

Moradivh
12-04-2001, 11:22 PM
Okay... big response here.
Sorry for the long read.

look....you must not be very good.

Ha. Now there's an interesting accusation.

last night i player JK online for the first time in ages.... This one guy was using the bowcaster very effectively.

Honestly, I don't know how JK's online scene has changed in the last 3 years, because I haven't played in that time. Jedi Knight was actually the first online game I ever got into, and I considered myself experienced at it. I wasn't an undisputed genius at the game, but I did play it constantly for many months. I lost interest in it just before MOTS came out, so I'm not familiar with the expansion disc's new goodies.

Back in the day, I dabbled in all the original weapons, played all sorts of opponents. My favorite matches wound up being NF saber dueling. Despite the lack of USEFUL sword maneuvers, I loved 1vs1 fights where me and my opponent would spend 10 minutes of frantic sword-swinging, running and dodging before finally landing a kill. Talk about suspense.

Of course, I also enjoyed the madness of FF/no-restriction Oasis battles. I even fought several of the #1 players on Case's Ladder, put up a good fight each time (though I didn't usually come close to winning). So I guess I was hardcore, but not THAT hardcore.

And in the hundreds of games I played, the thousands of killings I witnessed, I might have seen a Bowcaster frag... maybe once, twice at most. Neither did I see Lucasarts release any balance-altering patches that improved the Bowcaster's performance, or that of any other gun.

But hell, I've been TOTALLY out of the loop for 3 years! If the Bowcaster's a good weapon now, tell me! I just assumed that it was the same as it always was, and never dreamed that players could find a practical way to use it against a conc-rifle player of equal skill. But hey... I suppose anything's possible in 2 years.

the repeater and the ST rifle as well as the bowcaster would/will be alot more useful on the Q3 engine. The netcode makes weapons like that quite good for finishing weapons or as last chance suicide close range weapons.

Finishing weapons? Last chance suicide weapons? Heheh... is that why Chewie and the Stormtroopers carried them around? I suppose final-touch weapons like that are sorta fun from a gaming standpoint, but they be a lot MORE fun (and realistic) if they were... you know... practical weapons of war? I mean, maybe ONE surprise-last-ditch-suicide weapon would be cool, but not several. And again, Kyle's trusty brayer pistol is too weak to be considered even for this pathetic tactic. *sigh*

And about your netcode thing... I never said you were wrong. I certainly hope you're correct. But having never played Q3 hardcore, I wouldn't know. If it's anything like the old Quake2 netcode, I might be inclined to agree (because that WAS better). But I HAVE played the original JK with no lag, and most of the weapons still sucked.

If you arent comfortable playing at that kinda hardcore level then im sorry, but dont whine. I gotta tell ya im not willing to play like that, but i dont cry game balance when someone who is that hardcore beats me. I try and win on my aiming ability alone mostly

I'm not willing to play like that either. I never spent 24/7 perfecting my technique and memorizing every detail of every map. But I DID pay attention to the details of the game. And I never cried game balance when the top Ladder players kicked my ass. It was cool, and educational. :)

Counter-Strike has a lame...albeit useful system

I'm glad we agree somewhere. Counter-Strike's lack of financial realism is lame, but it's a shooter, so what can you do? Frankly, I'm not impressed by ANY online game that doesn't bother to balance its arsenal. Counter-Strike is better than some (you can still KILL regularly with most weapons, unlike JK), but it cheats balance by imposing that fake "money system." ... Oh well. It's still a great mod, as mods go.

madrebel
12-05-2001, 12:32 AM
well there needs to be some very definite differences between weapons.

again lesser weapons should not ever compare to the main stay weapons. every game has their "rocket launcher" that is pretty much the main stay weapon that everyone wants and fights for.

IMO thats the way it should be

ZeroXcape
12-05-2001, 01:04 AM
Who needs to balance guns and sabers? In JK, someone with The Force and a saber could take out anyone on the board. (Conc rifle or no conc rifle.)

Metallus
12-05-2001, 01:16 AM
This topic reminds me of how much I suck at JK. Ah well, still my favorite LEC non-adventure.

Home_Sliced
12-05-2001, 01:46 AM
Name 1 game where you have one of the 3 weakest weapons and youre going up against someone with one of the top 2 weapons and have a snow flakes chance in hell of routinely getting the victory.

UT. Granted much is dependent on the environment, but I could generally put up a good fight at the very least. For instance...

One Enforcer was fairly useless, but when doubled up you can take down anyone given the right environment. In fact, I often pick double enforcers over any other weapon on some maps.

BioRifle: yea, it was pretty worthless.

Shock Rifle: the special combo attack, in the hands of a skilled player (or a lucky one ;)) is quite devastating.


Another rubuttal to the above statement being that weapon balance does not necessarily mean that the weapons are always balanced in every situation. Or, as you put it, you will "routinely get the victory." In a large open area, naturally a rocket launcher or sniper type weapon will serve best. In a tight area, a shotgun type weapon or one that outputs a lot of ammo will probably be the most useful. Therefore, a person having the "right" weapon should more routinely get the victory. As you said, "level design/item placement dictates game play." However, it should still be possible given a particularly well aimed (or lucky) shot to take out a player with a "superior" weapon. This just did not happen in JK between players of equal skill. It's either conc or death 90% of the time. IMO, that is not very good weapons balance. Yes, there should still be a big gun that is more useful/powerful than other guns (enough that players have an incentive to want it), but not at the expense of making all the other weapons next to worthless. Are there uses for all of JKs weapons? Yes, but the uses are not broad enough nor spread out enough over all the weapons.

acdcfanbill
12-05-2001, 02:08 AM
well, the bio gun ist totally useless, in certian places, i would choose it over something like the shock rifle... two well places shots with the bio gun could kill you, not to mention it sticks all over and explodes.... granted i didnt use it a whole lot, but it defently wasnt a usless gun... the flak cannon has to be my fav though...

Nemios
12-05-2001, 04:16 AM
I think splash damage weapon should be quite difficult to use so the power is a reward to your good tactics. Decent examples are Thermal detonators, mines and secondary mode of the rocket launcher (If you miss the enemy and he can move to escape it is pretty useless). Very powerful projectiles could be wide but with poor range (like 2nd fire if the conc, but the projectile wasn't wide and you can't really see where you were shooting) so you have to run next to the enemy to make use of it. Less powerful weapons could have high fire rate or/and be very accurate (I like ST Rifle but, like someone else said, the first shot should have been precise. Other shots shouldn't be accurate only if you are keeping pressed the fire button).
With features like this you can possibly win with every weapon but you have to fight in different ways. What do you think?

Kurgan
12-05-2001, 10:57 AM
I started playing Elite Force the other day, and I noticed how Raven threw in a pretty feasible explanation for the "bottomless backpack" of nearly all FPS games.

Their explanation? Using transporter technology (it's Star Trek after all), the extra weapons/items/ammo are stored in partical form in these little condensors on your power suit. Thus it makes sense that you can whip them out of nowhere and you don't get any penalty for carrying every single weapon in the game. Works for me!

Also, I think the idea of "weighting down" Kyle with weapons is silly.

If Yoda (little Yoda!) can lift an X-WING FIGHTER without too much trouble, then surely Kyle can lift 200 lbs of guns or whatever it is.

I think the idea of 1 hit kills for everything should be a mod or option for MP. After playing Star Wars Quake2 TC with one shot kills, I just think it's a bad idea as the default or only option. In SP it just encourages you to quicksave/load constantly to avoid severe frustration, and in MP it just kills the drama of long battles. Why stay for a saber duel when you can just shoot clip the guy with your gun in one shot and win?

So, whatever it takes, whatever BS explanation they can come up with to fill in the "gaps" do it, Raven, that's my advice. Just make it as fun and balanced as you can manage and throw in plenty of options for the people who want a change of pace.

Kurgan

madrebel
12-05-2001, 11:38 AM
why does everyone seek an explanation?

i know its not possible to lug around 12 guns....guess what i dont care. Its a video game.

Also to prove my point, last night i played another NF guns game against someone on the zone. He was pretty good too. I killed him 4 times with the bowcaster. Its actually a pretty good weapon at close range.

Moradivh
12-05-2001, 11:42 AM
**cracks knuckles**

Kurgan: good points.

Home_Sliced: I couldn't agree with you more.

Nemios: Yep.

ZeroXcape: So you're basically saying that a Full-force (FF) Jedi could beat a no-force gunner? ... Maybe, but that situation never happened in multiplayer JK, since the gunners used force powers as good as the Jedi's. And a FF gunner beats a FF saber any day of the week, assuming the players are equally skilled.

madrebel: dude, don't conform! Open your mind... heheh. *cough* Uber-guns are great in singleplayer, but in multiplay they just limit the possibilities of play for most people. They need to be kept on a leash -- with limited ammo, long reload times, whatever -- just so they don't hog the whole online scene.

Okay, obviously some of you don't really know what balance is, or its importance. It's a question of micro vs. macro, thinking of the long-term vitality of a game.

I hate to use such an abstract example, (I'll receive a lot of flak for this) but it's the most balanced game I've ever played.... an RTS:

StarCraft.

I played this game for almost 3 years because of the sheer number of ways it could be played. Blizzard busted its butt to balance every inch of Starcraft, and did it EVER pay off. They designed all 36 units and spells to have a very specialized use. And it didn't matter if you were a stupid newbie or a die-hard Ladder player, a casual gamer or someone obsessed with getting the highest score. ALL the weapons were used at every level of play, and the only limit to tactics was the tactics of your opponent, which you had to adapt to for victory. And there were dozens, if not hundreds, of adaptations available, depending on what tactic you and your opponent went for.

In Starcraft, there was no "hopeless" weapon like the brayer pistol or ST rifle. SC's units were only made hopeless by the stupidity of the PLAYER who didn't take advantage of them properly. And that's the way it should be.

Of course, rushing was sometimes a problem, and disconnects, and map-hacks. But otherwise, DAMN was that ever a fine system.

madrebel
12-05-2001, 12:28 PM
well i may have not stated my opinion clearly.

main stay weapons:

quake series was the rocket laungher.

unreal series really has 3 shock rifle, rocket launcher(8ball), and the flak cannon.

in the original JK there was 2, conc rifle and the rail.

That i fine those are the main stay guns and should be the weapons of choice.

I personally think the conc does a bit to much damage and has to wide of a blast radius.

Also, like most modern DM games ( i do hope there are other modes in JKO as well) the small..."hopeless" weapons are no longer. Default gun in Q3 is the machine gun...its actually a good weapon. UT's default weapon isnt bad either...but if you go up against someone with full health + good weapon and you have full health + pistol(even double pistol) it is my opinion that you should expect to lose more than 70% of the time. If you didnt whats the point of trying to get better weapons?

What i would like to see in JKO:

Storm Trooper Rifle:

needs to have dare i say it....counter-strike/wolfenstein like firing accuracy. The longer You hold down the trigger the more Varied your shots become. This should also be the default weapon IMO with say 50 rounds? Secondary fire should be a zoomed in scope mode that is both very accurate and slower firing. I dont think the damage in this secondary mode should be changed however (god i hate using this comparison again but it fits, in counter-strike both sides have an assault rifle that can zoom in, since the ST rifle does have a scope i think it should be similar).

Repeater:

IMO on the Q3 engine's netcode this gun will be a dream. I dont think it needs anything.

Bowcaster:

Primary mode IMO should take less time to charge up the 5 bolts

Secondray fire needs to be The instant Hit equivalent of say quake 3's Rail gun. Makes this the hard hitting precise long range threat. Make it take 5 nrg cells per shot.

Thermal Detenators:

IMO everyone should start with 5 of these things. They are already under used which is a shame. The movies made it seem like these things were to be feared. Yet i never once feared someone with a thermal online.

Also make a quick 'tap' of the key throw a set medium distance both for primary and secondary fire. Then of course make a longer hold allow for a ranged toss.

Keep both modes. Contact and timed detenators both have their places.

Mines:

LEAVE THEM IN OMG THESE ARE SO FUN :)

Make them stick to ceilings this time though =)

I did like MOTS's mines too. Having both proximety, short fuse, and remote detenation mines was great fun.

Rail Gun:

Make it travel slightly faster? Or make it add your momentum to the speed it travels. In full force i remember running into my rail charge a few times hehe.

Sticky mode is fun dont dork with it :)

Mysteries of the sith had heat seakers, these were pretty fun but depending on the map design were horribly exploited at times. Still fun though from time to time.

Conc Rifle:

Primary mode:
Smaller blast radius and a little less damage per hit. Maybe make it alot less damage when you have full shields? Like in, damnit i hate referencing yet another "reality shooter" But in soldier of fortune 1 a shotgun was crap against someone who had full armor. Since the concusion rifle is after all just compressed air should shields stop alot of the damage? Make it cost maybe 10 power cells?

Secondary mode:
Will be great with the q3 netcode. Please dont mess with it.

Carbon Gun:
hehe this gun was alot of fun in mots. It was far to easy to use though. If they include it in JKO it needs to be extremely short range with a very narror "cone of cold" meaning you have to be dead on to score a hit....it shouldnt immedietely freeze either the first few hits should slow you and then maybe freeze you after some succesful hits. Maybe make it so the saber oculd "burn through" or block the carbon too

Saber:
Please, for the love of all thats holy make this a very deep dynamic weapon that is both easy to use...yet very hard to master.

Make secondary fire have more of a penalty if you miss. Make lots of moves/combos for primary fire.

Above all make it friggin cool as hell! (maybe a quarter staff saber? :))

IMO that would be perfect balance

Once you spawn in you would have a storm trooper rifle with 5 thermals. If you cant defend yourself with that then you need to hang up your mouse :)

Also personalities mode was alot of fun in mysteries of the sith too.

I would reccomend one small change. Make it so the jedi CANT pick up weapons in personalities mode.

Moradivh
12-05-2001, 04:56 PM
Hmm.... Sounds like a pretty good system. Workable, definitely better than the original JK. Obviously JKO won't have all the same weapons, but whatever.

Mines were fun, but what I REALLY loved was sticking rail detonators to people's asses, and watching the smoke trail from their butts as they ran in terror before blowing up. Muahaha.

Anyway, your ideas are good, but I might keep the default gun as a Bryar Pistol. It'd be a shame to give up Kyle's favorite weapon. Maybe they could make it the ultimate "newbie gun" by giving it some sort of advanced auto-aiming feature, so it couldn't miss at short range. Then it might be comparable to the ST rifle, even though it fired less rapidly. Perhaps you could choose between either weapon at the start of a match.

They could also make the pistol the fastest draw in the game, though it wouldn't be that big an improvement.

Anyways, I don't really care what the details are, so long as the guns compliment one another and the combat situations you usually face. But in an average 1on1, I don't think ANY gun should beat any other gun more than 30% of the time. Otherwise a lot of weapons just won't get used.

And if there is a "gun hierarchy" of some sort, then sabers should be VERY high up there. Either that, or have a game mode that imposes force restrictions on gunfighters.

I'm looking forward to Raven's improvements on the lightsaber. It'd be great if they had a system where every sword-move was USEFUL as well as cool-looking. And I hope to God that blaster deflection actually WORKS in multiplayer, because it sure sucked ass in JK. Now, that doesn't mean I want to block nuclear explosions with my stick, but some sort of compromise would be nice. I'm open to suggestions.

Agen
12-05-2001, 05:16 PM
I think people are getting mixed up here.... who says u can't have the force while using guns?????

Also to prove my point, last night i played another NF guns game against someone on the zone. He was pretty good too. I killed him 4 times with the bowcaster. Its actually a pretty good weapon at close range.

If u ever played with Phoenix, Narz (Jeezo), Rampage and other wds and bsbs (HDK but they're nf gunenrs.. nf not my stuff)
u would realsie that bowcaster is completely useless. what u need in jk is tactics speed sight and a conc... otherwise they will tramp over u (Narz would tramp over u anyway though)
If u ever tried to play anyone half decent at ff oasis they would em.. let's see er.. kill u. I mean they're on speed (force speed hehe) with their map on and they have a conc and force if u shoot bowcaster let me see.... they get out of the way with no problem and u get blown to hell....
Nf maybe a different story but most likely to get mauled in that too. I don't paly nf as i see it as quake with new maps and guns.
sabers were wuite pathetic unless u were palying another saber.

Unless they Zone has gone really REALLY terrible it's unlikely to get a bowcaster kill. i seen it twice and it was liek this it was me and my cousin in a team he force jhumped while holding the bowcaster and while he was in the air he just popped him while he was still stuned.

Also the bowcaster has been announced to have splash damage.

Can anyone remember the doom level designing? (Deu ahh... the memories.
They had the rocket launcher in the middle of the level and u had to make a run to get it while being fired at... good design indeed.
oasis may have tried this they did in bespin but oasis lacked it and made a big mistake by putting the surge right beside it once they got there u were done destruction and conc = death.
That is what made doom so good for it's time.. the level design (including mp) they had the chance taking.. make or break. Jk done this very well but lacked in the main level of mp.. oasis.

madrebel
12-05-2001, 05:17 PM
Well the bryar may have been kyle's favorite weapon, but its not boba fett's or luke's or vader's or......

in multiplayer you dont play exclusively as kyle.

also i think they should bring back all the older weapons. They rocked and were all in the starwars universe.

Their absolutely needs to be a gun heirarchy. If all the guns were equal what would be the point of fighting for a better weapon? Yes all weapons need to be effective but not all equal.

and again, the saber dueling/blocking as well as hit scan weapons and projectile weapons, will all be ALOT better under Q3s netcode.

madrebel
12-05-2001, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by Agen_Terminator
I think people are getting mixed up here.... who says u can't have the force while using guns?????



If u ever played with Phoenix, Narz (Jeezo), Rampage and other wds and bsbs (HDK but they're nf gunenrs.. nf not my stuff)
u would realsie that bowcaster is completely useless. what u need in jk is tactics speed sight and a conc... otherwise they will tramp over u (Narz would tramp over u anyway though)
If u ever tried to play anyone half decent at ff oasis they would em.. let's see er.. kill u. I mean they're on speed (force speed hehe) with their map on and they have a conc and force if u shoot bowcaster let me see.... they get out of the way with no problem and u get blown to hell....
Nf maybe a different story but most likely to get mauled in that too. I don't paly nf as i see it as quake with new maps and guns.
sabers were wuite pathetic unless u were palying another saber.

Unless they Zone has gone really REALLY terrible it's unlikely to get a bowcaster kill. i seen it twice and it was liek this it was me and my cousin in a team he force jhumped while holding the bowcaster and while he was in the air he just popped him while he was still stuned.

Also the bowcaster has been announced to have splash damage.

Can anyone remember the doom level designing? (Deu ahh... the memories.
They had the rocket launcher in the middle of the level and u had to make a run to get it while being fired at... good design indeed.
oasis may have tried this they did in bespin but oasis lacked it and made a big mistake by putting the surge right beside it once they got there u were done destruction and conc = death.
That is what made doom so good for it's time.. the level design (including mp) they had the chance taking.. make or break. Jk done this very well but lacked in the main level of mp.. oasis.

There was a time when i played JK hardcore all the time. very few people could beat me at FF guns then. Those that could didnt whipe the floor with me either.

My point is, i havent played JK in 3 years i jump in a NF game last night and get a couple kills with the caster right off the bat. Both times they were close range kills where the caster is a pretty good weapon. Shouldnt the people completely destroy me? I mean damn i havent played in 3 years.

hehe i am a a very good gamer man...i was in the original element for about a week before they broke up the first time...then i was in JKE basically until i quite playing jk/mots. Was on one of the best tribes teams there was. I know how to play noone totally mops the floor with me :)
:fett:

Agen
12-05-2001, 05:35 PM
I hardly ever got beat except on one offs.. i was actually quite amazing. Narz was about the only one who could get to 10 before i reached 7 but i wasn't saying they could kick my ass but i was saying their style of paly actually i said theirs because i do the same thing but i couldn't be bothered palying anyone to show them.
I haven't played jk in over 6 months now and i suppose i still rock. Also JK has gone on budget again and the newbies have saved the zone from getting rid of it.

Moradivh
12-05-2001, 05:53 PM
Thanks for backing me up here Terminator. That's exactly how I see the game.

I used to fight against Element... 3 years ago. But I was always outnumbered. I could've put up a fight against one of you guys... probably couldn't beat the best of you though.

This brings back fun memories.

See madrebel? I KNEW the bowcaster sucked ass. And you go telling me I'm not a good player... Idunno what kind of goofs you were fighting last night, but the bowcaster is CRAP. :)

What the hell... gettin me all worried I missed some uber-bowcaster-patch fix in the last 3 years.... :)

**walks away mumbling**

madrebel
12-05-2001, 05:59 PM
at close range....used for surprise attacks the bowcaster is a good weapon.

ill admit though that it has no place in FF battles its just not fast enough of a weapon. But it can be effective in NF matches...in certain situations.

Which is what you were saying that every gun needs to have something its good at. caster is good at close range.

Moradivh
12-05-2001, 06:17 PM
Yeah, but it's not good enough. Not even close.

Besides, most people naturally play no-restrictions, FF. If the bowcaster was up for that, it would've been good for NF games too. But it wasn't. So it's still crap.

How Raven balances these weapons depends greatly on what game type they favor. Will they focus on FF guns vs sabers, or NF, or what?

Ideally, I think saber-Jedi's should be the only characters with full access to force powers, especially force speed and jump. Gunners simply should NOT be as good with the force or the saber.

Anyway, that's just my personal preference. We'll see how Raven handles this.

madrebel
12-05-2001, 06:23 PM
i think youre right about that....gunners should be inmune to pull IMO with a weak absorb....if gunners had no force absord a jedi would totally own him.

thats why i vote for the personalities mode in JKO like it was in MOTS.

If the caster's secondary fire was a real strong hit-scan (q3 railgun style) it would be ALOT more efective.

Agen
12-05-2001, 06:28 PM
All i say is i think the bowcaster DID suck.. ravne will make it good.
I really don't quite liek the personalities... it scares me.. i liek to use the force as well... ff no f4 or some crap just liek jk is what i want.

Moradivh
12-05-2001, 06:32 PM
if gunners had no force absord a jedi would totally own him.
Yeah, but that's not what I want. Half the fun of these games is the GUNS. And the mines. And the thermal detonators. To hell with continuity -- I don't want the Jedi saber-fanatics to own everybody else.

So... the guns should be damned good, powerful enough to win against a Jedi of equal skill 50% of the time.

And gunners should be able to have SOME force abilities. Just not enough to make them better than Jedi.

Again, it'll will take a lot of weapon/force tweaking to get it right. But this game would ROCK in multiplayer if it was accomplished.

madrebel
12-05-2001, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Agen_Terminator
All i say is i think the bowcaster DID suck.. ravne will make it good.
I really don't quite liek the personalities... it scares me.. i liek to use the force as well... ff no f4 or some crap just liek jk is what i want.

personalities was just an option bro. It wasnt forced. There was still the normal FF/NF and some force options.

personalities was cool though because it was i beleive the first multiplaye game that had different classes(team fortress may have been out already i honestly dont remember)

There was the jedi, the soldier, the bounty hunter, and the scout.

all with very clear strengths and weaknesses.

Moradivh
12-05-2001, 07:02 PM
Unfortunately most people would just play FF/NF if they had a choice. So for most people, the game would still be kinda broken.

aferens
12-05-2001, 07:09 PM
Here is some text from "The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology".

The BlasTech E-11 (ST rifle) has a maximum range of 300m, optimal range of 100m.

Side-mounted power packs supply enough energy for 100 shots.

The accuracy should be higher than the previous games in normal mode, and slightly less than MotS in scoped mode. There should be 100 shots in each power pack.

madrebel
12-05-2001, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by aferens
Here is some text from "The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology".

The BlasTech E-11 (ST rifle) has a maximum range of 300m, optimal range of 100m.

Side-mounted power packs supply enough energy for 100 shots.

The accuracy should be higher than the previous games in normal mode, and slightly less than MotS in scoped mode. There should be 100 shots in each power pack.


secondary fire IMO should be a 2x zoom that fires at about 50-60% of max fire rate.

In no way should it, while zoomed, become a magically high powered sniper rifle.

digl
12-05-2001, 07:34 PM
I think the scope now will be on the bryar, not in the ST rifle

madrebel
12-05-2001, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by digl
I think the scope now will be on the bryar, not in the ST rifle

the bryar is a waste of polygons.

unless they double the power per shot and make it a hit scan weapon its totally worthless. it fires to slow.

but still.....the st rifle has a scope it needs to be used.

Moradivh
12-05-2001, 07:43 PM
It's a waste of polygons that's going into the game whether you like it or not. So they might as well make it useful.

I still think they should increase the pistol's firing rate slightly, give it a super fast draw and auto-targetting, so it can't miss at close range. That'd make it more practical in multiplayer AND an excellent "newbie gun" for the solo game. It still wouldn't quite have the punch of a ST rifle, but it'd be close.

Kurgan
12-05-2001, 07:48 PM
Another thing I'd like to say on the subject of "realism" in FPS games... I noticed in AvP2 that if you pull out the "smart gun" it makes you move more slowly.

Now the first thing that popped into my mind was "lame!"
because I knew they had done this with "balancing" in mind and people were going to think "ah, the weapon is HEAVY and so therefore it makes you move slowly."

However, barring having a transport weapons buffer like EF, this would make NO SENSE whatsoever. Why? Because lets say you bring a gun like that into battle, that is so heavy it makes you walk at half normal speed and makes running impossible. That would mean that even when you UNLIMBERED the gun and put it away (in your backpack) it would STILL weight you down and slow your movement.

So the other explanation you could give for that would be that the character CHOOSES to move more slowly when carrying the gun. Why? Because it's a harder gun to aim, so it requires precision. But then why not simply make the gun only accurate when standing still? That would force the player to stop for shots, but still be able to run around if need be, but his shots would go wild (AvP1 did this with certain guns, although the smart gun had no restrictions).

Then it came to me... in the Aliens movie, the Smartgun was actually attached to the soldier. It was like a tripod gun but was hooked up to their suit. It took time to setup, restricting movement, etc. Thus the slowness is simply because it hampered movement with its bulky design, not because it was heavy.

I guess the way I see it, is that a game can follow the "classic" FPS design that WORKS (Ie: that is balanced and fun). When it tries to be "realistic" by throwing in some limiting factors, it should have a good explanation, because I LIKE being able to do stuff that I can't do in real life. That's one reason I play video games.. because its' fantasy and anything is possible.

Obviously a game can be balanced, and still be unrealistic, but when you throw in a "realistic" factor (which seems to be popular thing to do these days in FPS games) you should at least try to explain why (to the players).

Like for example if the plot of the game is that you are Superman, and invulnerable, but simple bullets can kill you, there should be an explanation, even if it's just "they are kryptonite coated bullets." At least that makes it easier to overlook the glaring inconsistency (since it's dealing with the story itself and not simply well worn gameplay mechanics, like multiple lives or one man armies, saving, etc).

Stuff like save gems and one hit kills might be more "realistic" but are they any more fun, or just adding to frustration? I saw to the game developers, when in doubt, make it an OPTION, not the default mode.

Kurgan

madrebel
12-05-2001, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Moradivh
It's a waste of polygons that's going into the game whether you like it or not. So they might as well make it useful.

I still think they should increase the pistol's firing rate slightly, give it a super fast draw and an auto-fire mode, so it can't miss at close range. That'd make it more practical in multiplayer AND an excellent "newbie gun" for the solo game. It still wouldn't quite have the punch of a ST rifle, but it'd be close.

it doesnt have to be in multiplayer

also, auto-aim? uhmm no :( If i die by the pop gun i want it to be 100% humiliating, i want to know some jerk off got a lucky shot with it and it wasnt auto-aim :)

auto aim could be exploited by the bad people.

:fett:

digl
12-05-2001, 07:57 PM
The bryar would be very useful If its used as a sniping weapon

The scope is there just because the STs have a terrible aim :)

The BlasTech E-11 (ST rifle) has a maximum range of 300m, optimal range of 100m

It couldnt be used to snipe if it has an optimal range of 100m

madrebel
12-05-2001, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by digl
The bryar would be very useful If its used as a sniping weapon

The scope is there just because the STs have a terrible aim :)



It couldnt be used to snipe if it has an optimal range of 100m

right, the 2x zoom makes 100 meter shots alot easier

im not talking 10x-20x super hardcore marine sniper scope.

unfortunately i have to use the example because it fits but, have you played counter strike? They have 2 assault rifles 9sig commando and the stery aug) that have similar scopes. These are by no means "sniper" rifles but at medium range they are VERY accurate when firing 2-4 shot bursts. Thats all im saying should be done with the st rifle.

Moradivh
12-05-2001, 08:04 PM
Short-range auto-aim? As in, almost point blank. It'd still be the smallest weapon and fairly humiliating to die from. But it wouldn't be the ultimate fluke of the universe, if that's what you mean.

A guy with a pistol should still be a threat, albeit a smaller one. There's no point in designing a weapon that makes your enemies laugh out loud. :)

The auto-aim would be an optional function of the gun, and not location-specific. So if the game allowed head shots, the pistol would STILL always target the torso. One hit kills wouldn't happen.

madrebel
12-05-2001, 08:10 PM
heh aim for yourself bro :)

if you dont have a weapon that is good at close range.....dont get in a close range fight.

only way the bryer would be of any use is if they upped the power and maybe gave it a scope.

either get rid of it in multiplayer or make it more powerful

:fett:

Kurgan
12-05-2001, 09:48 PM
Auto-Aim is fine in SP, but in general, only a few guns should have it (like the smart gun in AvP for example). I prefer to have my shots go where I fire them. It's bad enough with lag screwing around, if everyone has autoaim, it just kind of degenerates into a fire-and-forget fest without any kind of skill required, as I see it...

As far as the Bryar having a zoom feature, I thought it had been established by Raven/LEC that only one weapon would have a zoom feature and it was not to be the ST Rifle, Bowcaster OR Bryar?

In any case, yes the Bryar as seen in DF/JK/MotS is pretty weak.. slow rate of fire and low damage. It was only useful really in JK for sniping, and other than that it was totally outmatched by just about every other weapon (putting the BlasTech into MotS made it entirely irrelevant in many cases as well). Yet, it should be kept in mind that the Bryar is a MODIFIED weapon (from a Bryar Rifle) so who's to say that Kyle Katarn can't simply MODIFY IT SOME MORE to make it more powerful and useful in the new game?

That I'd like to see. Give it another firing mode that makes it more useful.

Currently, it's obvious that the Bryar was put into the first game to have a trademark weapon and in each successive game because it follows the successively more powerful weapon distribution progression that has been present in all traditional FPS single player games since the beginning (just about every FPS starts you out with the standard "peashooter"). The only area it really has a balance problem is in Multiplayer.

Kurgan

madrebel
12-05-2001, 10:30 PM
whos to say Lucas didnt screw the pooch and make this "moddified" weapon far to weak. I find it hard to beleive that and ass kickin vigilante would really use this pathetic peice of garbage as his primary weapon.


Also hopefully the caster in JKO is a replica of chewy's "moddified" caster :)

:fett:

digl
12-06-2001, 11:22 AM
double post there
right, the 2x zoom makes 100 meter shots alot easier
That sounds good for the ST rifle

And the bryar should be more powerful

madrebel
12-06-2001, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by digl
double post there

That sounds good for the ST rifle

And the bryar should be more powerful

waiting for this game is going to drive me whacky.

acdcfanbill
12-06-2001, 12:47 PM
i figgure if it is slower than the ST it should have more punch per shot, its huge in comparison with other pistols, whats all that room for? hopefully for making slow, deadly shots...

madrebel
12-06-2001, 01:09 PM
i gotta tell ya, i wouldnt mind seeing a big hitting shooting 'default" weapon.

as long as it hits hard to make up for its whack ass speed.

SSH83
12-06-2001, 01:12 PM
I don't think anyone already mentioned this but com'on ppl, the solution is so simple here! All they need to do is to make an option in MP so that anyone who switches to gun or anything other than a saber, here on refered to Gunners, will have no access to Force power whatsoever. There's balance for ya. ;)
I mean the real conern here isn't the fact that someone using a StormTrooper Rifle will always get screw by Conc Rifle user, but instead all we are really worrying about is the fact that Conc Rifle is so powerful, wielder can litereally kill saber-wielder without a scratch. However, when the gunners are unable to use the force, suddenly the real Jedi would have advantages against Gunner just like how Gunner has range advantages over Jedi.
At least in JK, a NF Gunner has as much chance of winning as a FF Jedi do; that is a newbie with a concusion rifle wouldn't just own any experienced Saber-Wielder. The reason for that is the force power that allowed long ranged kill or sneaky approach toward the gunner can allow a Jedi to outwit the gunner.
IE. persuasion/Bind/Grip + speed then saber, or Force Destruction/DeadlySight+speed then go in for kill. OR the cheap way, Force Pulling the gun.
From all the games that I have played Role-Playing style in, (NF Gunner VS FF Jedi, me being one of the first to promote that, :D ), nobody seemed to mind the fact that Gunners get to use the Conc Rifle, because it IS just like going against an AT-AT using a light saber. Mass Attack Power with no manuvability VS Fast Moving Melee Combatant. Granted more details would need to be worked out, Ex. preventing somebody to Force Lightning while holding a light saber then quickly change to gun for the kill, either style of play can yeild just as much frags, thus achieving balance.

Comments?

madrebel
12-06-2001, 01:47 PM
a "gunner" without any force abilities is a sitting duck.

i would just force pull his gun then force grip with a force blast mixed in.

if i was light side force blind him and pull his gun then hack him to pieces, maybe push him off a cliff of something.

a "gunner" IMO needs to have a low level absorb (read immune to pull) that lowers damage done by the force.

after all a jedi still has shields which absorbs weapon damaage right?

a low level force speed would be nice for a gunner as well as a low level force sight

SSH83
12-06-2001, 02:38 PM
madrebel, yes, a gunner is more or less a sitting duck defensively, as are most of the range attackers in RPGs, but a lot of the things I mentioned could also be countered by gunner without force power of his own. For example against force pull, you simply hold your Storm Trooper pistol, or use your fist when running around, set your Conc Rifle to a handy key next to your moving keys, take out your Conc as you aim, and shoot when u see an enemy. Then for blind, you run like a pansy and hope you can spot your opponent as soon as blind starts to wear off, and take your shot.(Btw, blind is cheap against everyone including jedi players anyway, Force seeing helps but blind is still cheap) For force damage dealers, you take them head on. it's just like as if they are also using range weapons against you, and with Conc, you can usually win if that's all what the Jedi do.
The fact of the matter is, a gunner lacks the force, but he will have all the other weapons to his advantage to do things that a Jedi can't do, Ex. Camping at power-up, Sniping, Circle-Strafing while shooting.
In an other word, a gunner is a whole different element/play style that you simply can't mix jedi stuff into. For example, how the hell will a Jedi ever win against a force speeded Conc Rifle user? The gunner just hit and run all the way. Now I'm not saying the result is absolete as an experienced Jedi would then persuasion/blind/grip or whatever, but then a good gunner would then go for corners and avoid that, then the jedi will... you get the picture. Just imagine Boba Fett VS Luke, Fett doesn't have force reinforcements, but he still has a fair chance of winning since he can, snipe, mine, out-gun, etc. Luke. But if Boba Fett uses force, he would probably dominate Luke since he has BOTH range attacking capability AND force power. In conclusion a NF Gunner play style is really just as easy/hard to play/master and dependent of the player's skills as a FF Jedi play style.

btw, I think force destruction by itself can kill somebody in 2 shots, while Conc kills in 3. But conc rifle can fire alot more times than one can fire w/ force destruction.

Agen
12-06-2001, 02:42 PM
Giving them no force powers is far too harsh

acdcfanbill
12-06-2001, 02:53 PM
well, it should be a setting on the server, so each game could specify whether gunners had ff, nf, or somewhere inbetween..

madrebel
12-06-2001, 03:25 PM
Ill tell ya right now i would totally own a NF gunner if i had FF and a saber.

reason being the gunner is slow, ground bound, and at the mercy of my grip/blast/blind/pull/lightning/push........

notice i said the gunner shouldnt have force jump. Give the gunner the lowest possible speed increase is all im saying. make him a bit faster than normal but slower than a jedi.

The gunner needs to be able to absorb some damamge from force powers such as blast/grip/lightning and have a high resistance to things like blind and pull.

hell make it 80% resistance to those maybe even 90% i dont know.

Also i dont think a jedi should be totally denied of guns....let a jedi have thermals and mines and maybe up to the repeater, just not any of the "main stay" guns. Or maybe thermals, mines, and the Bryar only?

a "gunner" needs some force ability or he will get totally owned.

SSH83
12-06-2001, 03:53 PM
madrebel, of course a Jedi would be able to beat up on a NF Gunner head on, but just try to really think of a different style of play. For example, the gunners would be sniping from high up or some hiding spot before a jedi can see him, yeilding kill.

madrebel
12-06-2001, 04:11 PM
right, presumming there is a force sight and a map hud in JKO like JK before it. A jedi ALWAYS knows where thegunner is rendering the sneak tactic useless.

A "gunner" needs to have a chance straight up against a jedi without having to rely on 1 in a million shots

SlowbieOne
12-06-2001, 05:59 PM
I think it's safe to say there will be a Force Seeing. There should be because it's one of a Jedi's main Force powers and its used in a lot of the EU books.

I liked Force Seeing in JK, but I felt they didn't use it properly.

In alot of the books particularly the Thrawn Trilogy, Luke reaches out with the Force and can sense beings within a given radius, whether it was through a wall, or not.

True, the map worked OK, for Force Seeing, but I think it could be better utilized than that.

For instance, you could turn on Force Seeing and stretch out with the Force, and maybe you can see heat sources through walls. Or possibly a sound (e.g. a heartbeat) that gets gradually louder as you get closer.

There are many different possibilities, but I always felt uncomfortable with the map on, it took away from the fun becuase it drowns out the gamescreen so you don't get the full visual effect. Also, I highly doubt when Luke Stretched out with the Force, a green map activates in his head where he could see everything.

It seems to me like it would be something deeper than that.

Moradivh
12-06-2001, 10:27 PM
Just got back from a 20-hour school day... ugh...

There's one thing we're missing here: mods. Even if Raven restricts gunners from using the force, some modder will design a game with FF guns, and most players will SWARM to it (not all players, but a very, very large chunk).

Why? Because FF guns...
1) Was a classic, unique and fun-as-hell JK deathmatch that people are nostalgic about,
2) Features ALL the coolest abilities and weapons of JK, and...
3) It's more fast-paced than anything else.

An unbeatable combination, probably.

In a world without mods, I'd agree with madrebel: gunners should only have partial force powers. And heck, COMPLETELY denying them the force is another viable game-balance option (so long as guns are sufficiently powerful).

But neither of these "force-limiting" ideas is really a solution. Like I said, modders will find a way around it, and most people will probably stick to that mod like glue. So for the majority of players, the game will still be broken, as will the JKO community.

After long consideration, I think it'd be best for Raven to allow FF for everybody, gunners and saber-players alike.

But why would anyone use a saber then? Well, sabers would have to be buffed -- easier to hit moving targets, easier to deflect gunfire, and lethal in two swipes. Most sword swings would need a very long, reliable reach. Like madrebel suggested, perhaps Q3's netcode can lend a hand to sabers.

If worse comes to worst, some of the guns (and force abilities perhaps), might have to be nerfed. But only slighly, and only after the saber's been powered up.

A FF saber-fighter win against a FF gunner of the same skill 50% of the time... even if the guy's got a conc-rifle, even if he's running and jumping with force-speed. Like I've said a thousand times, it should be the SMARTER, more experienced player who wins, not the lamer with the uberweapon.

I just hope Raven doesn't overpower the "saber throw," and turn the sword into another lame-ass gun. It might be an easy fix to the saber's weakness, but there are better ways to accomplish that.

[SWS]Strider
12-06-2001, 11:24 PM
Maybe also (this may be stupid but I'm brainstorming as ideas come) you could do a slowdown type thing. I know other people have suggested it but mines a little different. How about instead of a gun really slowing you down, instead you become a little more agile when youhave a saber. Since your not having to worry about aiming as much it would make since.Instead of slowing down a player with a gun, speed up the player with a lightsaber a bit.

Strider

Terrin
12-07-2001, 12:39 AM
I believe in the FAQs... or was it an interview... that you CAN go through the entire single player with JUST your lightsabre. That form of play is possible but is very much a purists approach. To do it this way you'll most likely have to use a lot of stealth and force powers.

But the point is that it IS POSSIBLE to go through the entire game with just you lightsabre & force powers.

Agen
12-07-2001, 02:04 PM
I'm going to play it jsut as i did jk1........ Use everything at my disposal.
:)

digl
12-07-2001, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Terrin
I believe in the FAQs... or was it an interview... that you CAN go through the entire single player with JUST your lightsabre. That form of play is possible but is very much a purists approach. To do it this way you'll most likely have to use a lot of stealth and force powers.

But the point is that it IS POSSIBLE to go through the entire game with just you lightsabre & force powers.

Not the entire game, you dont start with lightsaber apparently, because they said something like after you get your lightsaber you dont need another weapon

Agen
12-07-2001, 03:44 PM
I now baptise u an official smart ass.

[eVe]DeathBoLT
12-07-2001, 09:55 PM
wheres Torment to lay down a long tirade about newbie comments when you need him?? ;) ;)

in NF, the only way to beat a conc-using gunner with half decent aim /w a saber is to ambush him around corners, etc. suprise is your only advantage in these type situations..

in FF however, the Force is the balancing factor; you try and remove force powers from gunners and you imbalance the game so that the gunner finds himself suffering the same plight the nf saberist in Oasis, only without the redeeming option of a suprise attack. Any half decent ff player keeps Map and Force Seeing on at all times, thus removing the possibility of the gunner ambushing the ff saberist.

A clever FF saberist can over come FF gunners via the force. Force Speed and Force Jump provide tremendous advantages in maneverubility. really the only way a Gunner could possibly defeat the advantage force speed/jump give would be if you gave him a ready supply of redeemer sized weapons..

Besides, with dedicated servers and pixel collision detection(or whatever its called :P), lag will no longer impair the lightsaber's killing ability; i think you'll be seeing a extremely potent weapon in the form of the Lightsaber come Jedi Outcast. The lightsaber will be as leathal a weapon as any other gun :)

Moradivh
12-07-2001, 11:36 PM
A clever FF saberist can over come FF gunners via the force.
In the original game, yes. But any experienced FF gunner wouldn't allow himself to be ambushed... or not very often. You'd have to be this amazing, brilliant saber tactician, or your gunner opponent would have to be stupid. If both combatants were EQUALLY skilled, sword ambushes would hardly ever happen.

Also, I know the score isn't everything, but a great bulk of players take it very seriously. If you can't get a GOOD score using a saber, and all the gunners are getting more frags, most players won't use the saber. They wouldn't want to handicap themselves against a gunner of equal skill.

Besides, with dedicated servers and pixel collision detection(or whatever its called :P), lag will no longer impair the lightsaber's killing ability; i think you'll be seeing a extremely potent weapon in the form of the Lightsaber come Jedi Outcast. The lightsaber will be as leathal a weapon as any other gun
Sweeeet. That's all I want.

I hope you're right.

SSH83
12-08-2001, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Terrin
But the point is that it IS POSSIBLE to go through the entire game with just you lightsabre & force powers.

Actually, it WAS already possible to finish the game with only Saber and force in the original JK, tho it didn't have saber throw. The AI was a lot dumber than real players, so when you are able to get a good score in MP saber-only games, SP with saber-only was more or less a piece of cake. (It's all about Force Speed and strafing. Try it and you'll see) Somebody even beat medium diff with fist only. It just depends on how "hardcore" you are and how much are you able to endure the quick save/then kill yourself to load save game.
IMO, saber throw is just a "cheap" way for a jedi to take down the enemy. Just think of an RPG game where a melee character, warrior, barbarian, paladin or whatever, that throws a sword from afar to kill enemy. It's just kind of out of character. :) Not like I dislike Saber Throw or anything, cuz it certainly did make MoS a lot easier.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that it wasn't impossible to beat JK with saber only in the first place. :)

[eVe]DeathBoLT
12-08-2001, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Moradivh
In the original game, yes. But any experienced FF gunner wouldn't allow himself to be ambushed... or not very often. You'd have to be this amazing, brilliant saber tactician, or your gunner opponent would have to be stupid. If both combatants were EQUALLY skilled, sword ambushes would hardly ever happen.


read closer:
in NF , the only way to beat a conc-using gunner with half decent aim /w a saber is to ambush him around corners, etc. suprise is your only advantage in these type situations..


I said exactly what you're saying further down in my post

Agen
12-08-2001, 08:58 AM
are u spamming then?
j/k.
well......... this thread has got damn long. not quite as lnog as the dreaded raven comparisson but long anyway altohguh this thread won't get lcoked.
In JK the stormies and other enemies could maybe get a few shots into u when u were carrying a gun mainly because there was loads of them. when carrying the saber u blocked and used the force and killed htem so actually if u had a stormie rifle and a saber i'd pick saber if facing loads of them... but if conc and rail det were available it's self explanitory.
it was possible but eventually i decided it was taknig to long against bosses with the saber so i whipped out my comc and shot the bosses to death with my conc... not very jedish but who cares..
:D

SSH83
12-08-2001, 03:11 PM
U used gun against bosses?! But then you missed all the fun and the chance to kick ass as a superior jedi. :)
U must not have played JK MP w/ no gun a lot then?

Agen
12-11-2001, 04:02 PM
First tiem i played it i done saber. Then i jsaut rat-a-tat-tated all the wya throguh.
:D

IronJedi Kaga
12-11-2001, 08:49 PM
Didn't get a chance to read through the whole thread, so this may be a repeat of an idea. The idea is to implement force energy absorb. Basically with force energy absorb (well as far as game terms), if you were hit with an energy weapon while this power was active, it would subtract force energy rather than health. As for where I got the idea, its a force power that appears in the expanded universe book "I, Jedi".

Agen
12-12-2001, 12:33 PM
That's a good point u have there... good idea.... we've had similar ones but not that one i don't think.

Dirth Vedar
12-12-2001, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Omedarcus
I want it to be like the only weapon in the game. It should be like in the beginning of Episode 1 where all these droids are shooting at Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and the two of them block the droids and kick their butts with just the lightsabers.


I disagree with this. While I agree the light saber should be more powerful, and you should be able to survive on saber alone, I don't think you should take away the fun aspects of the game by limiting concussion rifles.

Concussion rifles are very powerful, and so is the rocket launcher, but this is a First Person Shooter, and sometimes you do need to take out a gang of storm trooper in a hurry.

I don't play much MP, so I won't comment on the balance of the game there, but if they restrict the use of guns in Single player, the game will get boring VERY quickly. After cutting off the arms and legs of your 400th storm trooper, it just won't be fun any more.

And even if you allow concussion rifle, no one says it's a rule you must use it. I emensely enjoy the challenge of getting through as much of the game as possible with only a light saber. They should definitely make the light saber more useful, but should NOT make the concussion rifle less useful.

I think the light saber is useful enough as it is. It's great for deflecting shots from stationary gun pods, with persuassion, you can pretty much run around and kill gangs of people. Wouldn't work as well for guns because it takes more than one shot to kill baddies.

Keep in mind that concussion WILL kill you if you're careless, and that ammo will run out fast if used constantly, and slow refire rate, and I think that pretty much curbs constant cr use. But I think it's a butt load of fun to sneak up on a bunch of stormtroopers, and fire an accurate concussion shot, and watch them all fall down :D I still use blaster most of the time as the standard weapon though, so I don't think other guns are necessarily useless after a while. Perhaps if you're an unimaginative player...

digl
12-12-2001, 04:03 PM
Welcome dirth
Your chocolate jedi medallion and gift baskets (both original and dangerously sabotaged stolen ones) will be here soon

I agree with you
It should be possible to play either with saber only, or with weapons, however each person likes it best

sanpilou
12-12-2001, 04:27 PM
to balance gunz and force RAVEN should place options like : gun only with/without force, saber only with/without force, saber n gunz with/without force.........i think adding these options would be better than anything...

StormHammer
12-12-2001, 07:03 PM
Welcome to the forums, Dirth Vedar. :D I hope you enjoy your stay. Here...

*hands over a chocolate Jedi Medallion*

There you go.

In response to your post, I do think some weapons need a bit of tweaking, but nothing too major. A bit more weapon balancing, especially for MP mode, could be good. Until we know a bit more about the game dynamics - which can only really be judged by playing a demo - we don't really know exactly how fast or far we will be able to move or react to counter certain attacks.

Dirth Vedar
12-12-2001, 09:33 PM
You know, I always hated how grenades are handled in first person shooters. Why can't they assign a hot key that just throws a thermal detonator or mine without switching away from your current weapon. It sure will make grenades more versitile, instead of having to switch to it, hold the throw key for proper distance, and switch back to your old weapon. I think they should just assign G or Z or something, and just chuck a thermal detonator in a distance determined by how high you're aiming, without having to switch to it.

matt--
12-12-2001, 09:39 PM
In Tribes2, they assigned the G key to grenades and the M key to mines. It works very well, you aren't defenseless when laying a minefield:)

StormHammer
12-12-2001, 09:58 PM
That's a good idea, Dirth. I can't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to throw a TD with one hand, while retaining a blaster/saber in the other. This again brings up the whole issue of being able to hold two weapons at the same time. It should be possible to hold two blaster pistols, for example, and only require two hands for heavier weapon types.

It would be good to see this implemented out of the box...but if not, certainly as a mod.

DeathBoLT
12-12-2001, 11:11 PM
the only problem is that if Jedi Outcast force powers operate anything like JK's did, you're going to be short on keys that are reasonably easy to hit.

it's probably better if they designed the game to free up some keys for use as force power hotkeys..

Dirth Vedar
12-13-2001, 11:37 AM
Yeah, there's not enough keys on the keyboard, and certainly not enough fingers... hehe.

Although judging by some of the screen shots, particularly the one where it shows Kyle holding a thermal detonator, I think grenade throwing will remain the same, which is too bad, because it'll most likely mean that I'll run through the entire game will all my thermo detonators fully stocked. Except for that one occasion where there'll be this one inept guard standing at the bottom of the ledge completely ignorant of the fact that a thermo detonator will be dropped right behind him :D
I think it'll be nice to be able able to throw a quick grenade in a firefight with 5 or 6 storm troopers though. Heck, I think I'll give up my lightning hot key for that :p

Agen
12-13-2001, 12:03 PM
Well there's never a shortage of keys for me... me and my cousin once sat at a computter for 3 and a half hours trying to figure out the perfect setup.... I use it for eveygame (excpet worms) but i can't give it out though. giving away stuff cos' that helps me amazingly could make other peps better and then i wouldn't be better than them. Hot Keys is the path to follow.if u have a 3rd button on ur mouse and it's been installed then that helps too.

PreTZeL
12-13-2001, 12:12 PM
that is strangely intriguing....what games do you use it for? like what do you play with the most...

you could sell that and become rich man!

Agen
12-13-2001, 12:30 PM
that is strangely intriguing....what games do you use it for? like what do you play with the most...
U could sell it and become a rich man!!!

Yeh i thought about that one time.... Game Glory or Rich Man.... I probably would have tried to given it to someone but my cousin prompted me to keep it for ourselves. so i did... I'll give u mosto f the genres i use it for.

FPS- Definately.. almost every game there is it has to be with that. I originally had the idea when i was playing doom a long time ago.

Stategy - Well yeh if u can use keys but if it's mouse based i usually stick to it. ;)

RPG - Never without the keys for RPGs

Action/adventure... oh Yeh. how easy lara's journey's became after a little change.

Racing Yeh but the jump buttons are used as brakes.

God Games- Well i do if it doesn't need a mouse most do though. :(

Sports well it's a definate for Fifa and Tony Hawks.

3d Action/ Strategy.. No different from the Fps stuff.

Flgiht Sims- Yep much easier control over the pretend world that looks nothing liek real-life.

Space Combat - Yep I don't know where i'd be without the keys for this genre!

Well there's most of the genre's I can think of.. Put it liek this i use it for everything but mosue games. Like BnW.

Wilhuf
12-14-2001, 12:46 PM
Two rather lengthy threads on this subject exist. Take a look for previous discussion this August on the lightsaber.


Reasons Why the Lightsaber Needs to be Made More Respectable (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23847)

and

Lightsaber Needs to be Made Respectable Ep. 2 (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23415)

Agen
12-14-2001, 01:37 PM
Yes and it is jk2.net's longest thread but this isn't exactly the same..... look... how to balance the lightsaber and guns
To how to make the lightsaber more respectable.

There's a difference but this thread is on how to keep it balanced rather than beefing up the lgihtsaber to be as good as guns.
Well that's how i intended when i first started it.

madrebel
12-14-2001, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by [eVe]DeathBoLT
the only problem is that if Jedi Outcast force powers operate anything like JK's did, you're going to be short on keys that are reasonably easy to hit.

it's probably better if they designed the game to free up some keys for use as force power hotkeys..

unlike JK Q3 engine allows you to bind many functions to 1 key.

example

force sight = E
force run = shift/E
force absorb = ctrl/E
force pull = alt/E

i usually dont go past the shift and control keys....alt is a bit difficult to get to sometimes.

Agen
12-14-2001, 06:32 PM
ugh... that sort of way sounds liek fish curry if u don't mind me saying!:eek:

[SWS]Strider
12-14-2001, 06:52 PM
If any of you have seen or played Halo, that alot how I would like JK to be in "some" respects. For one thing, it has a button only for throwing gernades, which makes them incredibly useful. Another thig is the weapon balance on that game is great! No one weapon dominates the game. I know this sounds off topic, but I think some of these ideas would be really good.

Also on force powers I was thinking. If any have you have ever played RTCW there are some bound keys used for commands. So you can press V then a certain number and then anohter number and you say whatever that one is. What if you could do that with force powers? I know it sounds like it would take to long, but it reall dosen't once you get used to it.


Strider

digl
12-14-2001, 07:14 PM
It could work
When you are used to that It works pretty fast
But I dont think there will be any shortage of keys

Dirth Vedar
12-14-2001, 07:52 PM
mapping weapon selection to the number keys make sense in doom, because you don't need all the extra keys for stuff like force power. But in JK and the likes, wouldn't it make more sense to map all of the weapons to the Function keys, like F1 saber, F2 pistol, F3 blaster and so forth, and then map the force powers to the number key, so 1 will be force run, 2 force jump and so on, it's easier to reach, and it's not as annoying as Shift/E, Ctrl/E (no offense, I just find combo keys hard to remember). I mean, with auto switching when you run out of ammo, and mapping a key to toggle between weapons, how often will you need to change weapons that quick anyway. If I give up that 2 millisecond it takes for me to go to function key to switch from blaster to concussion rifle, I'd gain a much bigger edge in accessing all my force powers quickly at the number keys.

Agen
12-15-2001, 09:02 AM
Sheesh... might be easier to remember but do u remember the earlier days of jk were people stopped in mid action to look for a certain force powers.... now eveyone (most) use hotkeys so u don't have to search.. also i find the gun thing 123.... is ok but for force powers i would be even more annoying!

Ushgarak
12-15-2001, 11:17 AM
Hmm. The way I see it, there should only be two things that Raven are taking into account when it comes to weapon design in JKII. That is:

1. Capturing the feel of the films

and

2. Making a playable game

And I feel these two rules yield the following major points:

1. (Capturing the feel of the films)

- Many major characters in the films choose to use pistols. A rifle seems to be a grunt's weapon. So there should be plenty of reasons to still want to use a pistol after you have larger weapons. In fact, there is no evidence in the films that rifles fire faster than pistols- just look how fast Panaka's pistol fires when blowing out the window in Phantom Menace, and rilfes are almost always fired single-shot style- but this is also a gameplay issue (see below)

- The prequel films make it very obvious that fully trained Jedi with sabres are totally superior to anything else. Several things have to be borne in mind here:
a. The Jedi seem to be able to block shots coming at ALL angles, not just in front of them
b. No Jedi ever seems to think it is worth using a different weapon (I always thought it would be a good idea in multi-player that the more powerful a Jedi you take, the less weapons other than the lightsabre he is allowed to use). In any case, it is clear that the lightsabre is a weapon to be feared perhaps more than any other.
c. Jedi do NOT run around pulling the weapons out of the hands of every enemy they meet. No matter how 'logical' this may seem, this isn't what they do, hence Pull was greatly overpowered in the original
d. The Jedi were feared even by a people with a 'battle-hardened' army, consisting of tanks, heavy weaponry, the works. So simply having bigger guns is no way to defeat Jedi.

- In the new film, Jango Fett is capable of fighting Jedi. However, Jango is the absolute BEST of the bounty hunters, the king of kings, elite of the elite. This makes him powerful enough to be able to fight Jedi, in general.

Now, in multiplayer, it is reasonable to be want to take a bounty hunter as 'good' as Jango Fett (skill of the player not withstanding). However, it would then also be reasonable for a player to want to be a Jedi as good as Mace Windu or Yoda in multi-player, which is a whole power level above Fett, greatest of the Bounty Hunters.
I would say that if anyone has a problem with the seemingly invincible Jedi being defeated by people wuth guns, then they should remember that Deathmatch and so on is a forced, 'unreal' situation, so you CAN say that the people using guns are all as good as Jango and the Jedi aren't quite the absolute best the Order can produce.

In this way, multi-player can consist of both guns and sabres and still keep the 'feel' of the films. Stretching things to make it play well is no real problem at all.

In single player, of course, Kyle should be munching his way through loads of people with only overhwelming numbers or bosses being an issue for him.

But again, this is a gameplay issue.

(BTW, it should be noted that Jango also uses pistols. Two of them. At once. Firing VERY fast. Oh yes...)

2. (Making a playable game)

-While in the films the sabre is made out to be best, it would be a very one-sided game if it was the only weapon that anyone used. This is where gameplay takes precedence over the feel of the films.
But that said, I still think the sabre was underpowerd in JKI. It really should be an ultimate weapon- but one of several. True, a skilled player with a sabre was exceedingly dangerous, but a skilled player with just about ANY weapon was that dangeorus, and you didn't have to play long to find out that the range, speed, and area effect of the Concussion Rifle made it far better than the sabre, in general. The zero range of the sabre really was not compensated by the damage it did. I really think the sabre should be a one-slash-kill weapon- and it would still be balanced. It should also slash faster- Kyle's slashes in JKI are almost lesiurely.

- If rifles don't fire faster than pistols, they would be useless. So making them faster firing is a necessary concession.

-If Jedi could always block 360 degrees ALL shots coming at them, they would be no fun at all to fight. But if you can always shoot them in the back, they are too easy. This is diffcult to balance... though in the new film, Jango works on the idea that if he fires ENOUGH shots, the Jedi can't block them all. Didn't the game 'The Phantom Menace', for all its faults, have a system in which a Jedi could only spend so much time blocking shots before he was hit? Perhaps that would work well here.

- And as for the heavy weapons... well, it was really NOT on that things like the concussion rifle could easily knock out Jedi- hordes of them from a distance. It made trying to play a Jedi no fun at all. So something has to be done about that; though I am not sure what.

In conclusion... the sabre DOES have to be made more powerful, but not AS powerful as it is in the films.

Well, that's what I think...

digl
12-15-2001, 12:00 PM
Welcom Ushgarak

very good post

I agree with your points
About the slow slashes in JK, maybe we could blame Luke and Vader in the movies, because Luke was never really trained and Vader was in bad shape
But now the saber should work as seen in Ep1, but of course with some limitations for gameplay as you say

CaptainRAVE
12-15-2001, 12:23 PM
From what we saw of the early E3 footage the lightsaber battles look very quick and intense. Alot quicker than they were in JK.

Agen
12-15-2001, 06:08 PM
I just looked again and the lgihtsaber battles look on par with the obi-wan vs maul.... cool

Ushgarak
12-15-2001, 06:53 PM
Well, that's good. But while I know that Raven plan to improve the sabre- especially in its look- I do rather feel that things will be more the same as they were in JKI than different.

And that will still be a lot of fun, of course, but it might not be QUITE what it could have been.

Anyway, I am sure there have already been a dozen threads on sabre combat, so I won;'t get into that...

StormHammer
12-15-2001, 07:00 PM
Welcome to the forums, Ushgarak. Hope you enjoy your stay. Here... *hands over chocolate Jedi Medallion*. There you go. ;)

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Many major characters in the films choose to use pistols. A rifle seems to be a grunt's weapon. So there should be plenty of reasons to still want to use a pistol after you have larger weapons.

That's a good point, although I think the pistol should have a limited range, and less punch per blast than a rifle. I like the idea of being able to use duel pistols, in a similar way to UT. If you get in close enough, you can drill your enemy pretty fast with two pistols, especially if aiming for the head.

As for single-shot rifles...I don't see the need. If anything, something like the ST Rifle should have 3 fire modes - single shot, which delivers the biggest punch, a semi-auto triple-shot, say, that delivers less of a punch, but is very accurate, and a full-burst mode which reduces accuracy, allowing the spray effect, but which can be very effective at close range. Of course, your ammo should run out pretty quickly, leaving you open to attack.

No Jedi ever seems to think it is worth using a different weapon (I always thought it would be a good idea in multi-player that the more powerful a Jedi you take, the less weapons other than the lightsabre he is allowed to use). In any case, it is clear that the lightsabre is a weapon to be feared perhaps more than any other.

Yeah, I agree that as you increase in rank you should rely on the saber and Force more than other weapons. The lightsaber could become a bit more powerful, but as I understand it this time it will always react to the environment...and supposedly will be able to cut through things including opponents/NPCs even when idle. So if you brush past someone with your saber ignited and it makes contact, it should cause damage. I'm not sure about one-slash-kills, though. Maybe this should be the case for headshots, or even torso slices...but lopping off an arm or leg should not lead to instant death. In fact, if you lop off an arm, I'd like to see something similar to RUNE where it grows back if you get to some Health packs, or something. It might not be realistic, but it would be fun. ;)

Jedi do NOT run around pulling the weapons out of the hands of every enemy they meet. No matter how 'logical' this may seem, this isn't what they do, hence Pull was greatly overpowered in the original

I think that was more an issue of trying to make the movies more exciting. I mean, it wouldn't have made for very good battle scenes if the Jedi kept pulling guns out of people's (or droids) hands. Of course it would be more logical for a Jedi to disarm an opponent rather than kill them, and so I think the level of Pull was fine in the previous outing, and should remain the same.

In single player, of course, Kyle should be munching his way through loads of people with only overhwelming numbers or bosses being an issue for him.

Maybe...but I think that should be left in the player's hands. I wouldn't want to see a lot of auto-moves and defences for the sake of Kyle reacting more like a fully-fledged Jedi. Give the player some cues if necessary, but I'd prefer if they leave the control of how to react in a situation with the player. So the risks of dying should not be minimised in any way...from any quarter. Skilled players obviously should not take as much damage, while dealing out more, so I agree from that perspective. ;)

Ushgarak
12-15-2001, 07:16 PM
Well, with that last point about Kyle being able to go through loads of people, I did add that it was a gameplay issue, which was meant to take into account what you just said.

I think I also said that the rifle SHOULDN'T be single shot after all, a bit further down. it was all a matter of 'being like the films' vs. 'good gameplay', and in that instance the gameplay very much wins out in the need to have the rifle fire fast.

I also disagree about pull. I thought it was far too useful in the origianl, and also that if Jedi don't use it all the time in the films (when it would apparently be such a good tactic), there must be a good reason not to do it. I would say it was mostly unreliable and distracted you from doing other important things like blocking.

Thanks for the welcome, anyway. I hope this medallion tastes nice...

Redwing
12-16-2001, 08:03 PM
I think there if they include a gun like the concussion rifle, it should heat up and inflict damage on the user if fired too many times in a row. After all, that would only add to the realism.

The JK saber was a joke. To use it successfully, you had to have the time to mess with it for weeks to months, and disallow guns since they simply were far superior to the saber. And it was not at all accurate to the real thing. I hear they're changing that in Jedi Outcast, and I really look forward too it :) (I hope one- or two-hit kills will be the norm with this thing. After all, it's a LIGHTSABER!)

A good idea would be locational damage; ie a hit to the arm would do less than a hit to the head, which should be a one hit kill.

The JK stormie rifle is sadly unrealistic. They obviously based its exaggerated inaccuracy on the common misconception that stormtroopers have no aim. :rolleyes: When in fact, in the major scenes where they miss alot, in the Death Star and Bespin, they were under orders NOT to kill their quarry!

The Bryar was fine, realistic IMO except one thing: it's weakness. The Bryar should have been high powered! After all, we've been told that customized guns like his tend to be high-powered and ammo-wasting. So stay faithful to that! I mean, the guy is using it for PROTECTION!

The Tusken bowcaster was a fascinating and unique weapon. It likely won't be in JO, but it was a fun weapon to experiment with and very fitting for the Grave Tuskens, despite the fact that most players can't seem to hit anything with it. A pretty, if useless gun. But I think I'm going to strangle the next person who refers to it as "Chewie's bowcaster". IT WASN'T A WOOKIE BOWCASTER!!! IT WAS A GRAVE TUSKEN BOWCASTER FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Anyway...;)

As for the carb gun in MotS: PATHETIC. Nothing out of the Star Wars universe corresponds to it.

Health/Shields should correspond to armor etc. NOT army rank!!

Please put powerups in realistic places. Why would people just leave shield powerups or powercells in a random alley?

Huge weapons like missile launchers should disable run. Like in TPM, when you carried the proton missile launcher, you couldn't go past a walk.

While the conc rifle was fun, it really unbalanced the game. And what was with the wimpy thermal detonators?

Use the idea from one of the most popular mods ever created: Saber battle X. Give use Evasion. Doing a flip to avoid being shot at. That ability is awesome and goes a long way towards balancing super-powered weapons.

A seeker weapon like the seeker rail detonator in MotS, but alot less powerful!!

Like Kurgan said, the idea of weighing down the player with weapons is pretty non-fun. After all, Kyle has all these other weird force powers, why couldn't he lift a few hundred pounds of guns with ease? He's a Jedi!! Look at what Yoda could lift---a several-ton X-Wing in a few seconds.

PLEASE. MAKE A DOUBLE-BLADED LIGHTSABER AVAILABLE IN MULTIPLAYER.
And an option to change saber lengths would be pretty awesome as well...I mean, Kyle has a new one, why would he have made a clone of his old one?


Weapons/changes from JK/MotS I'd like to see in JKO:

A more powerful Bryar pistol.

Stormie rifle/rifle with scope ala MotS. Except, secondary fire should be stun setting and it should be more accurate, at least with the first shot, or perhaps the longer you fire the more accurate you are.

OR just put the scope mode on 2nd fire on the Bryar, and stun for 2nd fire in the stormie rifle. :D

More powerful thermal detonators! Thermal Ds are pathetic in JK/MotS! They're extremely underpowered. Think the thermal detonators from the TPM game; a huge blast radius with lessening damage taken as you moved outward from the blast center.

Flash bombs from MotS: Awesome if under-used. Keep em. :)

Mines from MotS: These are incredibly fun! All three modes are great: Manual, automatic timed, and movement-sensing.

Rail gun: Keep this, definitely! It's practically a symbol of the best of the Imperial weapons. It wouldn't be a JK game without it.

Force seeing: The thing with the map was pathetic! C'mon, make it more like the movies...perhaps you see a monocolor image through a wall or something...not a dot on a map...

Force pull should be somehow limited. In the films, Jedi don't just run around pulling everyone's guns away.

Force grip is totally overpowered. A good idea would be to make the grip release when the gripper fires a weapon (loss of concentration)

Saber Skill should be a force power! If JO is going to have the assign stars to things engine, you should be able to assign stars to your skill with the lightsaber! (And/or other weapons)

SlowbieOne
12-16-2001, 09:14 PM
The JK stormie rifle is sadly unrealistic.
My thoughts too.
The Bryar was fine, realistic IMO except one thing: it's weakness
Also agreed. It shot very slow and it took way too many shots to kill. I don't mind the rate of fire, but they should make the bolts more powerful to make up for it. Terribly unbalanced in JK.
The Tusken bowcaster was a fascinating and unique weapon. It likely won't be in JO
I will be in JO, and it seems to have a bit of splash damage, which would compensate for its faults in JK.check this screen:
http://www.jediknightii.net/screenshots/screen017.jpg
As for the carb gun in MotS: PATHETIC. Nothing out of the Star Wars universe corresponds to it.
Ya, it was fun for a bit, but got annoying quickly. I hope they can come up with something more creative than this in JK2.
Please put powerups in realistic places. Why would people just leave shield powerups or powercells in a random alley?
I couldn't possibly agree more. There are many creative ways to get powerups that are realistic. Its so lame when you open up a secret or whatever, and it's health or something, like it was put there just for you. Really takes away from a game for me.
Use the idea from one of the most popular mods ever created: Saber battle X. Give use Evasion
I thought the evasion from SBX was the savior for saber duels. It worked well in JK because original JK lacked any type of defense with the sabers besides jumping like a fool. But I am not sure it will even be necesary in JK2. Sure I would like it in of course, but it seems as if the saber duels are going to be more straight up toe-to-toe duels. But if I was developing JK2, I would definately demand it be included.:)

[SWS]Strider
12-17-2001, 01:10 AM
How bout force seeing works kinda like Predator's view? Where it blurs out everything but you oppenents and makes them bright red or somthing. That way if you in a room and suspect a assult you oculd use force seeing and find the location of eneimes.

Strider

Nob Akimoto
12-17-2001, 01:44 AM
EF's holomatch, for all the belly-aching I did that it seemed too much like Q3A with ST weapons was relatively balanced.

IT WAS possible for a player using a Type 2 phaser to be able to beat someone with a photon burst.

Hopefully Raven can make something as, if not better.

(Though I do think inventing weapons for a game is unnecessary in SW. There's enough weapons from the EU to last a dozen games.)

Dirth Vedar
12-17-2001, 02:21 AM
Just want to make some comment to some stuff I've been reading.

Seems like we have fans for the bryer pistol as many people are commenting how they should make it stronger, and how characters in the movies use it. Well, I think the the pistol should still be the weakest weapon, because why bother making a storm trooper rifle if the pistol is better. I think in the movies, people carry pistol for the same reason that cops don't walk around with M-16s. Pistols are convenient, and most of the time is adequate personal protection. Remember, unlike games, characters in movies don't have an invisible pouch to carry 8 different weapons. And even in the movies, you don't see people charging rooms of storm troopers with nothing but a pistol. At least I don't remember any such scene.

To make the pistol more useful though, so as to not just have it disappear from the game altogether after 2 minutes into the game, I agree with views which says to make the weapon a better close range weapon. Maybe make it lethal in 2 shots in close quarters, so as long as you don't have to snipe someone from across the room, it'll be adequate protection. And why not? A lot of these weapons are energy weapons right? Shouldn't their power dissapate over distance? Maybe all weapons are lethal in close range, but as the enemy stands further and further away, different weapons can inflict different amount of damage according to the distance. Couple that with different refire rates, maybe different projectile speeds, energy drain, etc., and you can make every weapon useful depending on the situation.

Also, there's a lot of Jedi worshipping. Comments like how a jedi should use nothing but a saber and so forth, and mowing down storm troopers, and are feared throughout, etc. Though Jedis should be feared, they also shouldn't be Gods. I don't think Kyle should be allow to run around a room full of bad guys wasting people like he is invincible with nothing but a light saber. I mean, like in Episode I, what did Obi-wan and Qui-gon do when they saw those shielded robot? The ran like heck. They don't intentionally pick fights just because they carry their light saber, they also used their brains, snuck around a lot, and did a lot of negotiating and so forth. I say the extent of the usefulness of the light saber should be something like, if you're standing still, you should be able to block 90% of the shots fired at you, and if you're moving, maybe 75% (it certainly wasn't so with JK). That way, if you're stupid enough to run into a room with 50 storm troopers, and plan to just hack your way through, you will be dead. Because if say Obi-wan was stupid enough to do that, he should be dead as well. I mean, if light sabers and force powers were so great, why did Obi-wan snuck around in the death star to deactivate the tractor beam. Maybe he should have just cut down a legion of storm troopers on his way to the tractor beam controls.

Also, I should bring up the fact that Kyle is not exactly a jedi, since he's had no formal training. In fact, I believe his force powers are kinda weak in the begining. I think the theme of the game is that the force powers complements what he already is, an ex-storm trooper who's primary training was in guns, he's more like a han solo character who happens to dabble in the force from time to time. The force powers only made him that much more powerful.

One argument made, that jedis always use their sabers, and never guns, therefore, sabers are superior, but, maybe Obi-wan doesn't use rifles because he's never been trained in it. Or maybe Jedis are just snobs, and doesn't bother themselves with guns, maybe kyle was never formally trained in light saber use so he doesn't have the same proficiency as obi-wan. I still don't think guns should be made inferior though, mainly because I don't want kyle with light saber to become like doom with god mode and berserk, where you just run around and kill everything with one hit with no harm to yourself.

My opinions are of course my own, and I hope I don't offend anyone if my point of view seems a little strong. No disrepect meant for the all might jedis. Plus, I tend to be more worried and preoccupied with the game play for SP more so that with MP, so my views are probably bias. But I thought I throw out a few rants to help open up discussion.

Nemios
12-17-2001, 04:07 AM
About force pull... the real problem is this: in JK a disarmed enemy runs away and don't pick weapons on the floor. I think Jedis in the movies don't constantly pull weapons out from enemies just because they don't really need them and enemy could just re-pick them. I hope in JK2 enemies will be more intelligent to look for new weapons or weapons leaved by dead people.

DeathBoLT
12-17-2001, 11:12 AM
Nemios: In MotS they did.

Dirth Vider:
I think in the movies, people carry pistol for the same reason that cops don't walk around with M-16s. Pistols are convenient, and most of the time is adequate personal protection.
There is also collateral damage issues; m-16 rounds punch holes in walls,cars, etc.; 9mm bullets don't.


Redwing:
In NF - To beat a gunner: ambush him with saber.. catch him by suprise. Frequently works. The only problem with overcoming a concusion rifle user vs. saber was that lag often allowed the gunner to escape unscathed. I doubt lag will be a huge problem in JK2.

In FF - To beat a gunner: Use your force powers to kill him.

Bowcastor - it'll be in JK2.. primary fire sports splash damage and secondary fire charges up like primary fire did in JK.

While the conc rifle was fun, it really unbalanced the game. The conc rifle didn't really imbalance the game.. the other weapons were really underpowered. The ST rifle, etc. did have situations where they're useful, especially in close areas or areas of reduced mobility(i.e. water)... it'd just be nice to see more use from them.

As far as force seeing + map: I kinda liked having a radar effect...

SlowbieOne
12-17-2001, 04:59 PM
Bowcastor - it'll be in JK2.. primary fire sports splash damage and secondary fire charges up like primary fire did in JK.

How do you know? How did this bit of info slip by me? We don't know barely anything about the weapons yet, except some names.

madrebel
12-17-2001, 06:21 PM
hmmm so far there arent many splash damage weapons :( thats not cool.

oh well maybe mods will have cool stuff

:fett:

DeathBoLT
12-17-2001, 07:17 PM
originally posted by SlowbieOne
How do you know? How did this bit of info slip by me? We don't know barely anything about the weapons yet, except some names.

PC Gamer, Nov. Issue...

Ushgarak
12-17-2001, 07:42 PM
Right, just to repeat myself...

Remember, my post was about balancing the delciate issues of making rhe game like the films and then making a playable game. I said that if Kyle was a Jedi like in the films, then he SHOULD be able to take on horsed of things, obviously with a bit of common sense.

But I then said it was a gameplay issue. CLEARLY the game would be no fun if it played like that- it would be like God mode, as you say. So I wasn't saying it should be like that.

But the sabre would still be better. I think we can be pretty sure that Jedi WOULD use ranged weapons if they were better than sabres. And to judge by their average performance, they have good reason to prefer their sabres.

It's just a balancing issue, is all. I still think the eaisest conclusion is that the sabre should be improved but not be made QUITE as lethal as it is in the films or there would be no challenge.

digl
12-17-2001, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by [eVe]DeathBoLT


PC Gamer, Nov. Issue...

Would you be kind to update us on JKII? :D
posting all that new info found on pcgamer?:D

Maybe someone who has the mag could scan it

DeathBoLT
12-18-2001, 12:10 AM
i apologize.. it wasn't the Nov. Issue of PC Gamer that stated that.. it was in the IGN preview (http://pc.ign.com/previews/16463.html)

http://www.lucasarts.com/products/outcast/images/screens/17.jpg

and besides, if that preview doesn't say it, how that stormie's being tossed around certainly does.

Nemios
12-18-2001, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by [eVe]DeathBoLT
Nemios: In MotS they did.

They actually start to punch you but never pick a new weapon.

DeathBoLT
12-18-2001, 04:04 PM
if they run over a gun they pick it up..

Ushgarak
12-18-2001, 07:42 PM
Besides, if it really IS that easy for Jedi to pull weapons out of the hands of enemies, then Obi-Wan's fight with Jango will be pretty poor. Luckily, they can't, and it will be great.

Redwing
12-19-2001, 01:59 AM
@Slowbie One: Yes, I realize that a bowcaster is going to be in JO, but not the Grave Tusken bowcaster. :)

It would be awesome to have stormies go after their guns...make it alot more realistic than them just running over to punch you :rolleyes:

@ Ushgarak: They don't because it takes concentration, and they have to concentrate on not being shot. In JK and MotS, you could take hits and be fine. One idea would be to disable force pull when attacking with your saber (and take off auto-block), which would fit with the concentration idea. In JK/MotS, because of auto-block, you could pull at the same time.

Nemios
12-19-2001, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by [eVe]DeathBoLT
if they run over a gun they pick it up..

:eek: Really? I MUST try it!