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View Full Version : Weapons Debate: Heavy Weapons


DeathBoLT
06-16-2001, 10:42 PM
Concusion Rifle - should it be in there?
My view on it depends - the gamespeed Q3 operates on, Concusion Rifle would demonstrate too much splash damage and you cannot do too much of a reduction without its weapon's fire appearance changing too much.. If the game speed can be bumped up I think it might have a place.

Rail Detonator - what about it?
I think it could work well.. its splash damage could be reduced to resemble the q3 rocket launcher..

Other Weapons -what about 'em?
other possibilities of weapons along the lines of concusion rifles and rocket launchers and also those of the redeemer(from UT) sort? What do you guys think?

I'm interested in the opinions/arguments of not just the 'expert scene' in JK(i.e. HDKers, JCS, NBK, DIK, etc. etc.) but also the ppl that play it non-competively.

[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: [eVe]DeathBoLT ]

WD_ToRMeNt
06-17-2001, 12:09 AM
Conc and Rail should def be in JK2. Redeemer? Know way lol. Think of what a expert coulda done with that in oasis FF hehe. And the newbies already complain about conc and sometimes rail lol.

One weapon that was really stupid in MotS was the carbonite gun. It was way to cheap, and so were the seekers. I would for like JK2 to be based on skill like JK was, not on who has the bigger gun.

[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: -WD- ToRMeNt ]

Ice Man
06-17-2001, 12:22 AM
Concussion Rifle has been in all the DF and JK games, so I think it should stay. It is a unique and powerful weapon and think of beautiful the blast of that gun will be when Raven gets its hands on it!
A flamethrower would be pretty cool, but not very useful. The optimal short-range (and now even longer-range) weapon is the light saber.

OnlyOneCanoli
06-17-2001, 01:16 AM
I think they should keep both. As long as the gameplay is balanced and there are effective counters for weapons, as in JK, I'm fine with it.

If they keep the carb. gun, they should change it so it doesn't spray so often. And it shouldn't go through objects like in JK either. Or just make the ammo so rare and hard to get that it isn't as dominating as it was in MotS.

MaDMaN
06-17-2001, 03:07 AM
I never played with a carbonite gun (freezes stuff?) so i dont know about it but i liked the rail gun and conc rifle but i think a sniper rifle with a massive damage potential would be my favorite weapon if they implement it. ;)

Tre Lightshadow
06-17-2001, 03:29 AM
How bout a nuke? It kills everyone... NO, but seriously, I think there should be some big guns available, at least as an option in MP. Like those big Turok guns. Star Wars has cool technology, so I want to see what those would look like in the Star Was universe.

MaDMaN
06-17-2001, 06:24 AM
Oh and I also think it would be kool if they put in a kind of shotgun but is prolly just me.

SAB0TEUR
06-17-2001, 07:12 AM
OK... let me put my two cents in as a 'competitive' player. Guns and multiplayer levels are going to make or break this game, so here are my opinions on guns.

The internet is a laggy place, and splash damage weapons are a needed. In JK and MotS, I generally don't bother to engage unless I have a C-Rifle or a railgun, given the situation.

C-Rifle: I say keep it. Its been here since the first Dark Forces, and has always been a favorite in single and multiplayer games.

Rail Gun: I'm half and half on this. Either replace it with a grenade launcher, or let it be, i don't care.

Carb Gun: If Force speed, protection and absorb can be used together, keep this gun. In FF MotS games, the carb gun is the most efficient, and at times the only gun you can realistically fight with. Either drop some of those forces, or get rid of this gun.

Sequencer Charges/Mines: For gods sake keep em.

Bryar pistol/Stormtrooper Rifle: Get rid of the bryar. its too slow, its too weak, and its just not very fun. The rifle should be kept, but the bullets/lasers should move much faster. Take a lesson from that machine gun in quake 3. Hit the trigger and bam, the shot is there.

Crossbow: I don't think i've ever uesd this in single or multi, and I'm not the only one, so get rid of it. Replace it with some star wars version of the shotgun or flak cannon.

Repeater: Keep it, but again, speed the bullets up. The repeater should be like a Quake II chaingun or a UT minigun.

Thermal Dets: Leave em' be. They're fine the way they are, and yes, they are frequently used in anything from a last resort to a freaking boom balls game.

Saber: Personally, I would just say get rid of it, but since this is a Star Wars game, I guess ya gotta have it.

Fists: Hah... thats the biggest joke in JK and MotS. Why on earth would you punch someone to death when you could slice em up in half the time? Pack em up and leave em out.

If i forgot something, its probably not worth mentioning anyways, so don't bother with it.

sabo

Seryl Cann
06-17-2001, 08:11 AM
The internet is a laggy place, and splash damage weapons are a needed. In JK and MotS, I generally don't bother to engage unless I have a C-Rifle or a railgun, given the situation.

JK and MotS are really bad with a lot of lag. Q3 is a lot better. Weapons without splash damage can be really good in a game (see counter strike).


C-Rifle: I say keep it. Its been here since the first Dark Forces, and has always been a favorite in single and multiplayer games.

I've never liked the C-Rifle. I usually play NF sabers. I hardly even used the C-Rifle in single player.


Rail Gun: I'm half and half on this. Either replace it with a grenade launcher, or let it be, i don't care.

This is my favorite weapon (other than saber) in JK. So, I'd say, leave it the way it is (especially the sticky things :p).


Carb Gun: If Force speed, protection and absorb can be used together, keep this gun. In FF MotS games, the carb gun is the most efficient, and at times the only gun you can realistically fight with. Either drop some of those forces, or get rid of this gun.

I do have MotS, but I don't like playing it in MP and I've never used the Carb Gun in SP.


Sequencer Charges/Mines: For gods sake keep em.

Mmmm mines :D I remember we use to play the demo: mines all over cloud city. Keep them!


Bryar pistol/Stormtrooper Rifle: Get rid of the bryar. its too slow, its too weak, and its just not very fun. The rifle should be kept, but the bullets/lasers should move much faster. Take a lesson from that machine gun in quake 3. Hit the trigger and bam, the shot is there.

I think they will keep the Bryar pistol in JKII. It'll probably be the gun that never runs out, for the times you run out of everything else.
Stormtrooper Rifle should be more accurate and it should have a sniper mode like in MotS.


Crossbow: I don't think i've ever uesd this in single or multi, and I'm not the only one, so get rid of it. Replace it with some star wars version of the shotgun or flak cannon.

I used this in single player. It is a lot better than the Stormtrooper Rifle. But I've never used it in MP.


Repeater: Keep it, but again, speed the bullets up. The repeater should be like a Quake II chaingun or a UT minigun.

I agree with you there (WOW)


Thermal Dets: Leave em' be. They're fine the way they are, and yes, they are frequently used in anything from a last resort to a freaking boom balls game.

Leave them in. Smoke granates might be cool too.


Saber: Personally, I would just say get rid of it, but since this is a Star Wars game, I guess ya gotta have it.

Sabers are the entire reason I play JK. I think the game should focus on sabers as much as possible. There are a lot of FPS out there. JKII has to be different to be a success and I think the saber is one way it is different (force powers is another way).


Fists: Hah... thats the biggest joke in JK and MotS. Why on earth would you punch someone to death when you could slice em up in half the time? Pack em up and leave em out.

Fists are cool :D I remember having a couple of fists only games :p Anyway, how else would you be able to see if someone is AFK or typing or something.


I don't think the weapons are really that important for JKII, just as long as they get the saber and force powers good. Good weapons are important, but I think I'll mainly use my saber anyway.

MaDMaN
06-17-2001, 09:06 AM
I play gunz and sabers. The reason i havent picked up my copy of Q3A or UT is because JK has a saber. Weapons are important but as Cann said the Saber is waht makes it stand out in my opinion :eek:

wardz
06-17-2001, 09:52 AM
I am not sure If I have read this somewhere (on the video?), but the foucs on the heavy guns will be reduced in this game, mainly because you are now a Jedi Knight and you can utilise the saber to full effect.

This means that the saber will be your weapon of choice and the others used as an option as it were for when needed.

This could lead to the heavy weapons either becoming 'heavier' to rival the saber for MP or becoming weaker in SP to make the lightsaber MORE powerful.

Personally I would like the heavy weapons in SP to give more damage - for more of a challenge. In MP the 'elites' will have to become more skilled and think more. That will make them better players but still give everyone else a fighting chance..

wardz

Darth Lunatic
06-17-2001, 12:03 PM
The lightsabre has to be the main emphasis of this game. Sure you can chuck some guns in for good measure. But this game is called Jedi Knight , therefore the sabre should be the weapon of choice for most players. Simply because its so lethal if used correctly.

I love playing against people who use guns in Jedi Knight. Its force pull heaven. Take there weapons off them and there gone! Then its a matter of catching them as they force run their arse away in fear of my wrath!

DeathBoLT
06-17-2001, 01:01 PM
Concusion Rifle I thought about it, and could you have balance in game.. imagine the conc in UT.. a gun of it's power level/rate of fire really throws out the balance of other weapons.. i wonder if it shouldn't be replaced. im all for a heavy weapon that still fits in.. the thing with q3 is that rocket launcher isn't the weapon that'd you always pull out - b/c there are other weapons that have killing power that rivals the rocket launcher. thats what i'd like jk2 to be like.. where every weapon 'cept the machine gun/byrar is about as good as the next weapon.

Bryar pistol/Stormtrooper Rifle: they suck in jk, they'll be more powerful. stormie will also have a scope and might be as powerful as the UT sniper rifle.

Crossbow: charge it up to 5, get right up to them and unload 5 shots into their face. instant death whether they have 200 shields + 100 health or not. it could stand for some work, but its not a bad weapon.

Repeater: I'd like to see it as the q3 plasma gun tho.. its a lovely thing i think..

Thermal Dets: make 'em more powerful and maybe have a seperate throw key...

Saber: Crazy talk, removing the saber.. it always made you deadly no force or not, and created different aspects of gameplay.. im looking foward to it in jk2.

Fists: how would you fight a krayt dragon next time the hutts capture you? although it really isn't useful, it'd just kind of feel wrong not to have 'em.

Sequencer charges very useful especially in nf matches.. keep 'em.


if the saber autoblocks, i wonder what balance the weapons will demonstrate.. if any..

[ June 17, 2001: Message edited by: [eVe]DeathBoLT ]

DeathBoLT
06-17-2001, 02:20 PM
if they balance the guns like q3 does, I think they could fit an saber in there nicely.

if they have to dump all the JK weapons and start new to make sure the guns are balanced, I say do it. throw out the conc to make for an more approriate weapon.

Krayt Tion
06-17-2001, 04:58 PM
http://www.jediknightii.net/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000107

I much of a die hard dark forces as I am, it is time to start thinking outside the box.

There was a Cannon Fodder mod for mots that once you collected the proper amount of energy and weapons enabled you to press a button and setup up your own version of an E-Web in game. Now that was fun.

My personal opinion is scrap half of jk's weapons if you want (except the saber). Time for something new fresh, and fun, but still stars. Converting all of JKs weapons to modified q3 engine with minor tweaks = boring.

NeJJa
06-17-2001, 08:02 PM
my humble (BEST) opinion is as follows:

concussion rifle : really i think this gun is awesome. i can only see making splash fire less powerful and the railgun type 2ndary fire more.

mines : NO CARPET MINES
if there is more than ONE mine in like a 5 foot radius they detonate. automatically.

lightsaber : just make sure its bright, because hey we all know the only thing sabers are good for is a sign of peace.

rail det : hmmm regular fire shoots out a rocket thing with a SMALL blast radius but HIGH damage, secondary shoot one with LARGE blast radius but LOW/MEDIUM damage with lots of momentum (pushing people of ledges)

thermals: there should be a thermal launcher or something to make them cool.

bowcaster : could have been so cool
if im playing DM and i dont have conc or rail ( yeah right :D ) i always use this gun.
instead of just the 5 shot spread, use the UT rocket launcher idea of holding down alt fire while primary is cahrging, and shoot all 5 blasts in a cluster. MUCHO DAMAGE VOILA!

repeater: like i said before, instead of the 3 shot spread, shoot 3 bullets that weave in and out of eachother in a triangle pattern, so it can be effective at medium range too.

strifle;

for gods sake make it instant hit.
how about and alternate ACCURATE fire that goes slower.


and deathbolt for making this topic you get free cookies for 1 day.


:D

Lucky
06-17-2001, 08:23 PM
It depends on what the multiplayer maps look like.

Open spaces=lots of long distance splash weapons, conc would be good for a lvl as open as canyon oasis.

Rail's better for more enclosed fighting, a lot like the rocket launcher in q3. Actually, its almost exactly like the rocket launcher in q3 just a lil more powerful.

in q3, their rail gun, is precisely like the 2ndary fire for the conc. Thought i'd toss that out there.

I like the idea of homoginizing the weapons a lil bit. Make their FUNCTION *more* important than the ammount they can blow you to bits.

But, it looks like we're gonna have much more open space than in q3, so the balance of q3 isn't going to apply here too much. The balance of JK is a lot more applicable. It's tough to kill someone who knows what they're doin with a rail from across canyon oasis. Conc shot travels fast enough tho, so its a lil eassier =P

So i'd use, long distance fast moving splash for far off, + blasters, cause they seem to be moving pretty fast now, and if they're powerful enough you could spray em around. I'd also keep blasters and slow moving 1 hit gib explosives like the rail for enclosed fighting. Then to tie the 2 disparate aspects of the game together, i'd give all the guns a 2ndary function that would let them be useful in either setting. IE, conc rifle's insta kill 2ndary would be pretty good in some close quarter situations. +the conc jump. The rail gun gives you a bigger boost, so it would be useful in vertical outdoor settings. you could add a grapple to it or somthin. make it a climbin man's weapon =P

Basically, I see it as a 2 setting game, outdoor and indoor. The weapons have to function well in both settings, and thats the real challenge of balancing the game.


Lucky

wardz
06-17-2001, 08:41 PM
Don't expect a carbon copy of the guns you saw in MOTS, Conc prolly won't be in it anyway. It's time for a change...

wardz

NeJJa
06-17-2001, 09:59 PM
wardz i think your wrong
from what i know and have seen so far
they are incorporating new gaming elements but still bringing over many DF and JK traditions. i would be really suprised to not see the conc, not to mention adding raven developers to "the list"

:eek:

DeathBoLT
06-18-2001, 02:22 AM
what weapons do u think could replace the 'concussion rifle'?

acdcfanbill
06-18-2001, 02:42 AM
well, i think most all of the guns are useful, i think they should keep the concussion rifle, even tho it eats power cell like no tomarrow, it still a part of the game. and i dont think that flamethrowers or grenade launchers would be approprate, because they have never been heard of anywhere in SW. course neither have rail guns, or imperial repeters, but, they are more set to the star wars concept than something like a flame thrower. anyways, thats my two and a half cents...

ReAcToR
06-18-2001, 06:24 AM
It was way to cheap, and so were the seekers. I would for like JK2 to be based on skill like JK was, not on who has the bigger gun.

I haven't played MotS as much as alot of people, so I may be missing something, but how can something that can be controlled, be cheap? Everyone has the chance to control items. Those who choose not to control a certain item, can't complain because someone else does. The seekers were very easy to evade in all of the levels that had them and I'm sure that most of the skilled MotS players have found ways to evade the Carbonite gun as well. I find that I usually evade being Carbo-whored when I'm in an open area, but am easy to freeze in enclosed spaces(especially in NF). I could be missing something though, like I said, I haven't played MotS alot, although I find it to be a great game.

i think a sniper rifle with a massive damage potential would be my favorite weapon if they implement it.

I think that one of the previews stated that one of the guns(a blaster?) would have a zoom/sniping mode. I was fascinated by the idea of a Tusken Rifle with scope in Obi Wan and I would be just as turned on to the idea of it in JK2.

I also think it would be kool if they put in a kind of shotgun

There are many primitive worlds in the Star Wars universe, and I don't think that a Shotgun would be too out of place. Something similar to the shotgun in HL would be interesting. I always loved that weapon because one shot to the dome ended your opponents life.

Get rid of the bryar. its too slow, its too weak, and its just not very fun.

I have a feeling that the Bryar will be in JK2. The Rate of Fire in JK was a tad too slow IMO and the speed in which the laser bolts traveled were as well. If they were to increase the speed in areas of this gun, I think it would fit in nicely.

Crossbow: I don't think i've ever uesd this in single or multi, and I'm not the only one, so get rid of it.

The Bowcaster was a great gun in both SP and MP. Primary fire enabled you to kill an opponent with one hit and secondary fire allowed you to bounce the bolts off of walls to keep your opponent from blocking them with a Lightsaber, because they would hit him/her at odd angles. With some minor work, I think that the Bowcaster could be a great addition to JK2.

The repeater should be like a Quake II chaingun or a UT minigun.

The Q2 Chaingun is one of the greatest guns of all time IMO and anything even remotely similar to it in JK2 would be great.

Thermal Dets: Leave em' be. They're fine the way they are, and yes, they are frequently used in anything from a last resort to a freaking boom balls game.

They are also a great asset for NF CTF. Good for setting off mines.

Fists: Hah... thats the biggest joke in JK and MotS. Why on earth would you punch someone to death when you could slice em up in half the time?

I would like to see some martial arts movements implemented into JK2 and possibly even a Hand-2-Hand Combat Arena similar to Rocket Arena, but with martials arts instead.

JK and MotS are really bad with a lot of lag. Q3 is a lot better. Weapons without splash damage can be really good in a game (see counter strike).

Depends on how you look at it. I get 300-500 ping in JK and that is easily playable, but I get 500+ in Q3 and that means that I'm basically frozen the entire game. I do however support the use of dedicated servers, I just thought that I would point out that there are still thousands of us who won't be able games such as Q3 very effectively if at all.

JKII has to be different to be a success and I think the saber is one way it is different (force powers is another way).

And the guns are another way. There are many elements that make JK unique. A combination of them all is what makes it the most unique IMO.

The lightsabre has to be the main emphasis of this game.

I'm sure everyone thought the same thing about Jedi Knight before it's release.

But this game is called Jedi Knight , therefore the sabre should be the weapon of choice for most players.

Let's not forget that this game takes place in the Dark Forces storyline and that Kyle Katarn hasn't always been a Jedi. Let's also not forget that the majority of characters in the Star Wars universe didn't use a Lightsaber and not everyone wants to play as Kyle Katarn or even a Jedi in MP. The game should represent all of our needs, not just those of you who want to play as a Jedi. This is the way it was in Jedi Knight and will probably be the way it is in Jedi Knight II.

It all comes down to this:

Raven is perfectly capable of making the weapons in this game balance out nicely. Balancing weapons is probably one of the easiest issues to deal with in creating a game. My only concern about this issue, is that they make the Lightsaber alot more powerful than the rest of the weapons and making it where it can block just about anything that you throw at it. I don't think that is "balanced," I think that some of the evasion should be left to good old fashioned movement/foot-work. Flips and rolls like we see in UT would be ideal.

Dj_chocolate
06-18-2001, 07:11 AM
I think your'e right Reactor! A good old fashioned "Swing 'n' slice-em-up" was the one (and sometimes only) element of JK that actually kept me going back for more! But I do think that more time should have been spent on the sabre itself as a
'weapon system' rather than just another weapon. Too many first-person action games have a hand to hand combat weapon, i.e; knife, sword, axe or whatever. and they all serve pretty much the same purpose; to be able to cut your opponent up with max damage at min range, smash crates or get through holes in walls! No! What we need is a sabre dedicated system that will interact properly with other sabres! Look at that patch that came out for Mysteries of The Sith: "The Art Of The Lightsabre" now although it was a bit of a touch 'n' go concept, the idea was there, urging players to put their sabre's to use and develop their own skills and moves with it! It might not have been perfect in practise, but with a little time and effort, you could get pretty much the EXACT result you wanted e.g; 'left+fire' caused the sabre swing left, 'right+fire' to the right etc. Now if this kind of concept is gonna get put into play, then just think of the possibilities... No more sad freaks who like to run at you full speed and press 'double swing' all the time. no sir! none of that! you'll actually have to use your own skills with your own sabre to actually penetrate someones block!
Now that will definately sort the men from the boys!!!

any views on this?

MaDMaN
06-18-2001, 11:05 AM
Crazy you arent totally off base I think that would be very kool in starwars.

Wilhuf
06-18-2001, 12:35 PM
concussion rifle - It appears in both DF1, JK and MotS. Concussion rifle should appear in Jedi Outcast, carrying the tradition as a powerful weapon. Secondary fire graphics effect should be ramped up to give sniper mode more oomph. Projectile speed, damage, or concussion radius will have to be reduced if the overall game tempo is slower.

rail detonator What does this weapon have that concussion doesn't have? Not alot, but we can fire rounds into the ground and stick a few rounds into our enemy, different damage and firing rates. And unload seekers in MotS. Good all purpose rocket launcher. I'd drop the seeker rounds in Jedi Outcast though.

Imperial Repeater Raven should ramp up the damage and rate of fire on this weapon, and attach a thermal detonator launcher to it for secondary fire. Make it a dual machinegun/grenade launcher weapon. Imperials would issue a weapon like that.

carbonite rifle Fun to use. Raven should keep the carbonite rifle, but ramp up the number of rounds required to freeze your opponent, or reduce the rate of fire if Jedi Outcast tempo is slower than jk/mots. Consider making carbonite collision detection server-side instead of client-side. Stun baton may make this weapon redundant.

wookie bowcaster Ramp up this weapon considerably. Primary fire could fire bouncing, deflecting rounds. Damage should be greater than in the original jk/mots to make it viable. Make it more shotgun-like for close quarters battle: Secondary fire could be a hitscan 'shotgun' blast of energy.

imperial issue blaster rifle Ramp up the damage per round, include a hitscan zoom/sniper mode. Might be good to make the weapon entirely hitscan.

stun baton if this immobilizes its target, then there won't be much need for a carbonite rifle.

bryar pistol default spawn weapon. Make it hitscan to give a fresh-spawned player half a chance to survive long enough to get a more powerful weapon.


lightsaber beef up the damage, add a just a few more combination attacks. But keep it simple. Also lightsaber should block concussion rifle rounds. Film canon (Ep 1) shows Jedi Knights blocking blaster cannon fire. If the saber will dish out more damage and deflect concussion rounds it'll have more respect. This doesn't mean the saber deflects concussion explosion so of course you could still get splashed. But if the round fires directly at you, there is a chance the round will be deflected back to the sender.

sequencers keep em they're fun. May have to limit the number than can be placed if the overall game tempo is reduced.

In general: make the weapons other than Concussion and Rail more powerful. Give us a reason to use a different weapon than concussion rifle and rail detonator.

[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]

GEJoeSolo
06-18-2001, 01:10 PM
I agree

KillerBee
06-18-2001, 02:08 PM
my $.02

JK had ff and nf, IMHO this lead to a problem.
in FF the Conky is perfect, as are mines (need brains to use) and the rail.
in NF, people played oasis.. big open, and relativly slow v, so the conky owned.. in more tight spots I always use a rail in preference over the conky.. simply cause it hurts more. the sabre with some thought is useful on a tight level in nf guns, as are the xbow if you can ambush people.. (most people dis the x bow, and when I see most people use it they use it like a large bryar using 2ndry.. that usually doesnt work, a nice fully charge load in the face tho.. well :))
Oasis tho is great for FF, perfect size and layout. JK tried to balance half the guns for nf, half for ff. some levels for nf, some for ff.. and they ended up everyone on oasis or bgj wif big guns or just sabres. (tho its true this is because most of the other levels sucke.
if they radically alter the force speed (eg it for short bursts and high cost, for jumping purposes) then it will mean that it will be a lot easier to design levels and weapons for.

DeathBoLT
06-18-2001, 03:48 PM
Imperial Repeater Raven should ramp up the damage and rate of fire on this weapon, and attach a thermal detonator launcher to it for secondary fire. Make it a dual machinegun/grenade launcher weapon. Imperials would issue a weapon like that.
sweet idea wiluf

DeathBoLT
06-19-2001, 02:46 AM
keeping topic @ top :P

Mafia_Jabba
06-19-2001, 03:05 AM
The weapons were great..but I'd like to see a change..isn't that what brings us all back to the same game..difference yet solidness

NeJJa
06-19-2001, 03:13 AM
no...ever played doom 2? :eek:

Mafia_Jabba
06-19-2001, 03:13 AM
word...I heard dat...my bad..but for a thrid time??

Dj_chocolate
06-20-2001, 05:09 AM
I don't know wether Difference OR solidity keeps me going back for more Jabba! I mean, I had both, but my girlfreind has only just left me for those 2 reasons! hmmph! :confused: Anyways. I've been a JK freak (or just a freak ;) ) Since it first graced all good video game stores (nearly 5 whole years ago) and I can honestly say my feelings are still going strong for it today.
Although, I personally beleive that the only reason i DO still play it, is because It's one of the very few games that are "open" and editable and easy to do so. Apart from half-life, which, well, let's face it, it's not Star Wars is it. And besides, theres only so many scientists and squadies you can take. I can't think of any other game that has had so much of a look-in at the weapons, mods and add-on's as Jedi knight! one thing though! why oh why oh why has Lucasarts not twigged on to how big a following JK has had BEFORE now! Why didn't they realise that there is so much talent out there producing Levels, mods etc and make yet another add-on or even sequel themselves instead of making us wait this long. And no I don't mean another Mysteries of the Sith-esque package!!! This makes me think that LEC must have something very VERY special indeed planned for JK2. Lets hope it's not JUST a new armada of contemporary blasters, rifles and sabres!!!

Long live Jedi Knight.

now where's my grapple hook patch?... ;)

SnaKe
06-20-2001, 05:39 AM
other possibilities of weapons along the lines of concusion rifles and rocket launchers and also those of the redeemer(from UT) sort?

lol.. that would be funny. if ur gonna put UT weapons in there we need a shock rifle for all da shock whores out there. http://people.ne.mediaone.net/the66thdopefish/bluecap.gif http://people.ne.mediaone.net/the66thdopefish/shockwhore.gif

this weapon would be too crazy for JKII.
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/the66thdopefish/redeemer.gif

lol..

MaDMaN
06-20-2001, 02:31 PM
Well the redeemer mite be fun in ONE level of JO but it should be so rare that its nearly impossible to find. But it would be fun to see.. could u tell me where you got those UT smiles?

SnaKe
06-20-2001, 10:16 PM
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/the66thdopefish/smilies.html

Thanks to Dopefish w00t!

MaDMaN
06-20-2001, 10:35 PM
Hey thanks for the smilies neat.

Sithxace
06-21-2001, 01:32 AM
I think the cocussion rifle is only good with bounty hunters, should have more smaller guns and i hope you could interact with repeating guns.

DeathBoLT
06-21-2001, 01:59 AM
it'd be nice to see some Ep1 TPM weapons(from the game) like that big repeater weapon, the proton torpedo launcher, etc.

i wonder if putting in droids that fight for you would be good.. like the Proxy mines from the Chaos UT mod

DeathBoLT
06-21-2001, 02:52 AM
possiblities for the bowcaster:
Theory 1
The two nodes could well produce an atmospheric "Casmir" effect if provided with sufficient power. The nature of the field(s) in question produced by the nodes is still a matter of discussion by my colleague Joao Leao and myself, but consider a visual analogue to be similar to what happens to a wristwatch when it gets dropped next to an active Magnetic Image Resonance machine. Basically a linear accelerator in disguise as a medical device. This would not focus the beam or bolt discharge in question, but it would likely be accelerated, perhaps to some great extent.

If you were looking for another visual example of this type of weapon in practice, the Eldar from Warhammer 40K use "Shuriken Catapults" that use spherical nodes of a charged field type to accelerate their projectile weapons.

Theory 2
The two nodes could actually be powerfully (positively) charged and the amount of the overlap of the two energy fields created by the polarization nodes could be controlled by the expansion/contraction of the thin non-conductive bar set between the nodes that we mistake for a "string". This could explain why we never see the "string" move, simply because it's actually quite solid and happens to fit the visual idea that we have for a crossbow.

Question here: did the weapon name itself after it was made, or did its name factor into the shape of the weapon?

The focal point for the beam/bolt emmission would be 2-dimensional in position (being located at a fixed point in space relative to the beam/bolts path), but 3-dimensional in effect. The focal point within the field created lens could be altered in shape and position by varying the polarization fields intensity and relative distance to each other. You could, in effect, alter the beams flight path by changing the lens's position relative to the beam. In doing so, you could fire a beam/bolt through the lens and then have it travel up to (an example based on the mathmatics of manipulation of the polarization field densities that make up the lens) 45 degrees away from the sighted path of the weapon. A gun that could fire around corners if you will. Also a real danger to those around an individual who does not know proper maintenance of their weapon.

Theory 3
Both the nodes are simply weights to counter balance the sharp rear-ended balance point on the Bowcaster caused by poor manufacture and design. The string is there as a visual sales gimmick to appear to those "tough and rugged" individuals who like a "man's weapon" of significant weight and power.

The idea of using variable electromagnetic fields as non-physical lenses for high energy focus is not a new one, and considerable work is currently being invested in it as I write this. Some of the current work in ZPF could well lead to propulsion systems quie similar in function to the ideas put to ink by science fiction writers of today.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I tend to favor theory 2 here. It could be argued that by real time manipulation of the fields produced by the nodes (implying some sophisticated computer control over the weapon) that the beam/bolt of the weapon could be focused either for greater short range power, or for greater range with weaker power. Possibly, Chewie's weapon could have only the one setting, or his weapon's onboard electronics automatically tailor the focusing fields based on ranging target data from the weapons sensors.

All this equipment built into the weapon would likely increase its weight to at least that of a present-day fully loaded M-16A1 or M-60. Hardly the weapon for a person needing a "fast" firearm for the smugglers life. A Wookies strength would allow him to carry this weapon without penalty. Also there is the possibility that prolonged exposure to the dual polarization fields could have an adverse affect on the human system. Again, Wookies may not suffer the same penalities as humans around the weapon and may actually be totally unaffected by fields considerably stronger.

Well this is my spin on the Bowcaster at present. I hope that some of this information promotes further discussion on human technological advancement.

Chip Partaledis
Smithsonian Astrophysics Observatory

bowcaster = might just be a form of the squad automatic gun

Donuthole
06-21-2001, 03:23 AM
I think what Crazy said above with a saber "system" is the logical step for Jedi Outcast and I hope it's implemented. Do away with any type of AUTO block as well. I say don't keep the saber simple, make it more complex. An actual saber duel would not be "simple." It would take a little thought to know when and where to attack the opponent. Do away with the double swing nonsense which will greatly intensify a saber duel, making it far more enoyable and rewarding after a "system" is implemented.

Almost forgot, the blasts from the STrifle would look VERY cool with the same kinda discharge from the Cloud City sequence from TESB with the smokey impact and all, instead of the puny red sparkles from JK1. The rate of fire should be slowed down as well, that is, if Outcast is gonna try and be faithful to the movies and actually project the player in the movies. This game *could* break a lot of new ground.

[ June 21, 2001: Message edited by: 667 ]

[ June 21, 2001: Message edited by: 667 ]

SnaKe
06-21-2001, 04:26 AM
dood... those proxy mines are cool. that would be cool to have them. they sound funny when they talk too lol.

Dj_chocolate
06-21-2001, 04:47 AM
Yo Right on 667! hmmph. Why doesn't everyone think this is a cool idea?

:D *modest grin*

Wilhuf
06-21-2001, 12:07 PM
An actual saber duel doesn't involve pressing keys, manipulating a mouse, controlling a joystick or gamepad, and sitting in front of a computer. Moreover, JKII isn't going to be a saber simulator.

Ever play Jurassic Park for PC? It's basically an arm simulator. User had to control in great detail the use of their arm. Not fun.

Of course Raven will keep the saber control mechanism "simple" so gamers can focus on the action. A few combo moves, probably through a few key or button presses will add to the strategy.

Donuthole
06-21-2001, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by Wilhuf:
<STRONG>An actual saber duel doesn't involve pressing keys, manipulating a mouse, controlling a joystick or gamepad, and sitting in front of a computer. Moreover, JKII isn't going to be a saber simulator.

..well personally I could manage pressing a few extra keys to make a saber duel a little more engrossing.

Ever play Jurassic Park for PC? It's basically an arm simulator. User had to control in great detail the use of their arm. Not fun.

No, that doesn't sound too fun

Of course Raven will keep the saber control mechanism "simple" so gamers can focus on the action. A few combo moves, probably through a few key or button presses will add to the strategy.</STRONG>

..Or maybe a less complex "action mode" for hacking up Stormtroopers and the like, and then a saber system for battling jedi.

Kastraelie
06-21-2001, 08:06 PM
Wait wait wait.......The fists have to stay it just wouldent be right if they got rid of them..but I have an idea that might make them a lot more useful. Make them be able to go through sheilds, this makes sense too, shields should just block energy stuff!

DeathBoLT
06-21-2001, 10:47 PM
thats how they operated in jk..


:]

GEJoeSolo
06-21-2001, 11:41 PM
the wepons must be like water, water can flow... and water can crash, you put water into a jar it becomes the jar, put water into a cup it becomes the cup. you look at water and think it is soft, not even mountains and stant up to water. be waters my friend....

Dj_chocolate
06-22-2001, 12:42 AM
Nope! sorry! I am still adament that a sabre system should be looked at! Im not talking as detailed as the "arm" system in Jurrasic park... as i mentioned in one of lmy last post's, i mean something like the "art of the lightsabre" patch. But hey, i aggree on the fist thing. Fists rule. Maybe they should have a fist system too!!!
*psyke*

SABER'S ARE THE FUTURE C:\My Documents\Smilies\The Dopefish's Smilies Page_files/Ninja1.gif

Dj_chocolate
06-22-2001, 12:45 AM
Damn!!! my smilie didn't work!!! Doh!

*hopes nobody see's padawan for the newbie he is*


:D

BluRR
06-22-2001, 11:12 AM
The internet is a laggy place, and splash damage weapons are a needed. In JK and MotS, I generally don't bother to engage unless I have a C-Rifle or a railgun, given the situation.

If JK2 is built like CS, with some sort of compensation for lag, there may not be the need for guns with such a big splash damage. On the other hand, if it is just like JK, I'd definitely expect to see them.

Jordus
06-22-2001, 12:21 PM
Give me my lightsaber and im ok...even again a rail or conc.... ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) :)

DeathBoLT
06-22-2001, 03:01 PM
hehe a link to your harddrive :p

ESE_Sithlord
06-22-2001, 05:18 PM
I think the heavey Weapons sould be kept at a low point because it really isnt Jedi Knight if ya use guns its more like Han Solo the Smugglar.

Besides ya dont really need any guns for this game not if ya a good saberist.

Who needs guns . :)

Pax
06-22-2001, 06:15 PM
Me! I needs guns! Being a Jedi is fine and all, but I'm a big fan of pulling out a blaster and letting the other guy have it.

I also understand the need for game balance, but it needs some kind of big guns. In the original Dark Forces, the concussion rifle was more like an instant hit BFG without the fireball, so they toned it down a lot for JK. And you just gotta have some kind of heavy explosive missile weaponry, otherwise what'll you accidentally frag yourself with?

-Pax

Kurgan
06-23-2001, 03:05 AM
Incidentally, fists DID have a legitimate use in JK, other than to fool around:

To beat somebody to death who was using protection (does direct damage, unlike a saber, which takes several hits to wear down protection before it hurts them).

Other than that, Fists were only a last resort if you ran out of ammo but lacked a saber (first four levels of JK, or in MotS as a non-Jedi) or to fool around (boxing match!).

The Bowcastor could be used effectively, it's true, very few people used it. I only switched to it when I had a power boost (it was deadly then).

The ST Rifle I used a LOT actually. You could crouch with it to nail saber users who forgot that they couldn't block low, and it had a sort of "stunning" effect on people so you could chase them down and get kills that way (something you can't do with the repeater as well).

The ST rifle was also super fun to use with the powerboost (super fast bullets, and twice the ammo!).

You could say "get rid of the Bryar pistol" but it's Kyle's signature weapon! Maybe, since it is a modified pistol, he could just modify it some more (and make it better) for the next game. It would make sense.. ; )

The Bryar is the "starting weapon" that every FPS has had for single player. The point is that you start with weak weapons and build up to strong weapons. In MP it's far less important, because you'll switch to a stronger weapon instead of using a weak one.

Of course the thing is, in order to make the game balanced, you have to make the weapons such that some are better in certain situations, etc, and no one weapon is all powerful. That way you have to use them all in order to be good. Or make them all equally good, but different, so you they have a different appeal, for different people. Most games I've seen use the former approach and it works.

Btw, Pax, long time no see.

Kurgan

[ June 23, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]

DeathBoLT
06-23-2001, 06:04 AM
maybe bowcastor could become a sort of instagib rifle.. plus the bowcastor has a scope on it in jk. never understood why u weren't alllowed to use it..

if you're going to have force speed tho, you'll probably need splash damage weapons..

DeathBoLT
06-23-2001, 05:22 PM
*keepin at top so we can have one large guns topic instead of creating new ones*

i still love wilufs idea of a imp repeater w/ rocket propelled thermal or whatever :)

Confed
06-26-2001, 09:23 AM
first off.... Death you can kinda leave NBK out of that EXPERT group unless you are refering to being able to talk trash... anyway as for wilhuf or whatever the name is's idea of deflecting a conc shot... the idea of deflecting compressed air back at someone seems kinda difficlut.. a rail maybe but a conc seems a little shakey...
force seeing... map overlay and being able to maneuver with the scope up like in MotS is a must hehe force jump couldnt hurt either. as for having a weapon of mass destruction... i think i said it in the last post about weapons.... no redeemer type weapons... that would destroy gameplay because one newbie would get it or one actualy good player would get it camp it and the game would be dead.. other than trying to get that homo away from it. Caltrops(floor spike type objects that one throws) like in shadow warrior would be kinda funny... non explosive yet do damage.. as for the mine thing...keeping mines in a 5 foot radius on a horizontal plane maybe but being able to lay a bunch on top of each other then back directly up so they dont go off in your face is always fun... especialy when watching newbies smack into an opposing wall and selfkill... or hit the ceiling.. hehe..
the crossbow is pretty useless i only use it when i get bored.. same goes with bryar(only good when bored or when you have it hacked *cough*)
and as ive said in another post NF Saber games in JK2 will kinda be lame... and whoever said "who needs guns" get your little saber and go against anyone whos good with a gun. and what you NF sabers players are forgetting is.. in JK2 there wont be person lag it will be weapons lag... so those of you that think lagging will be an advantage in this game you are sadly mistaken
*pushs button and waits 4 seconds for saber to move*"why wont my weapon move.. YOU HACKED IT" -me prodicting the future of JK2 HAHA
welcome to the world where broadband users have the advantage...laggers

Mercenary_Turned_Jedi
06-26-2001, 10:58 AM
What about a new weapon for the Star Wars universe

ENERGY CHAINGUN:
Specs: Fires up to 30 blaster bolts a second.

Completely effective in wiping out the
enemy (as well as your energy cells).

Vaporises ANYTHING in sight.

Cost: Lightsaber and 5 dead Sith Lords.

Mercenary_Turned_Jedi
:D

DeathBoLT
06-26-2001, 04:21 PM
the byrar is like the machine gun in Q3 - no one uses it unless they don't have anything better..

as for the bow castor, amp up the damge. if it dealt out the damage the rail det. does with 1 hit(which is an immediate death unless they have more than 100 shields) i guarentee people would start using it..

Mercenary_Turned_Jedi
06-27-2001, 12:34 PM
Gimme my Sabre any day and I'll rip a Dark Jedi to shreds.

:D

[ June 28, 2001: Message edited by: Mercenary_Turned_Jedi ]

acdcfanbill
06-27-2001, 03:17 PM
one of my favorite mods for MotS was the dual BlasTech pistol, when you had two, you kicked ass with it! they should really impliment some dual weapon system for JKII. something like Perfect Darks multiplayer, when as soon as you pick up a different one of that weapon, you get two. only maybe you should be able to mix and match guns too. cool thought though

Mercenary_Turned_Jedi
06-28-2001, 06:37 AM
Take the Saber or leave it, that's what I always say, darlin' !


:D

Mercenary_Turned_Jedi
06-28-2001, 08:05 AM
The Force Power "Saber throw" from MotS is pretty good for use in Hallways. Perhaps we should make it a new Olympic Sport ? What do YOU guys and gals think ?


:cool:

Mercenary_Turned_Jedi
06-28-2001, 11:41 AM
Another great weapon design would be the following:

Plasma Gun:
Specs: Fires highly ion-carbon charged blue energy bolts. Looks like a futuristic shotgun. Has a max ammo limit of 500 energy cells ( for those out there who love to reload: 30 bolts/a clip )

Price:
Luke Skywalker's lightsaber, 1 Millenium Falcon stolen strait under Han Solo's nose.

:D

Kurgan
06-28-2001, 11:03 PM
JK2 needs a flamethrower, 'nuff said.

Kurgan

Kurgan
06-29-2001, 01:37 AM
Oh, and personally I don't buy the "it's never been seen in Star Wars before" excuse.

If we confined ourselves to "Star Wars" weapons, that would get pretty dull. Think of it.. every new game would have the same 10-15 weapons.

Dark Forces had most of its weapons being totally made up. Go ahead and invent some manufacturers for them, make up names, make up stories if you have to, but give us COOL WEAPONS that are somewhat balanced.

Thanks!

Incidentally, most of the concepts for FPS weapons are repeated across games anyway, they are just graphically changed and the speed/strength messed with (ie: shotguns, rocket launchers, sniper rifles, machineguns, grenades/grenade launchers, flamethrowers, pistols/dual pistols, etc).

Most of the JK weapons are like that too, they just happen to have two modes of fire. Though there are a few that were original (aka: the secondary Rail detonator shots, etc).

If they have to make up a blue storm trooper class that carries flamethrowers, I'm all for it.

Or how about a power welder?

The DT Assault Cannon from DF1 might come in handy too (it's just a rocket launcher + a plasma gun).

Kurgan

SlowbieOne
06-29-2001, 01:45 AM
Whatever big guns they decide to use, i hope they make it so u can reflect the shots back with the saber like in spork, where u can reflect conc blasts. But if they put the rail gun in, thats understandable, considering the rails explode on impact or stick to the surface.

Mercenary_Turned_Jedi
06-29-2001, 06:22 AM
Here's another Idea :

Ion-Disruptor Pulse (IDP) Rifle:
---------------------------------
Specs: Fires ion-disrupted pulse particles at superhigh velocities. Rounds penetrate with zero expansion rate and explode on impact.

Comments: Due to the nature of the weapon, it eats energy cells for breakfast, brunch and supper. Final resolution weapon. High firing rate great for use against Dark Jedi and Sith Lords with a grudge. Rounds can not be Force blocked. Medium to long range weapon only. NOT for use at point blank.

:D

Kurgan
06-29-2001, 06:38 AM
Vagabond's column does have a point, and I do own a copy of the Essential Guide to Weapons, etc.

The guide contains armaments that have appeared in the EU and movie source material at some point.

Of course the ones in the Guide could be summurized as follows:

blasters (projectile weapons)

disruptors (instant hit weapons)

sonic guns (pulse weapons)

pellet guns (bullets, could be projectile or instant-hit)

flame-throwers (area effect fire, beam projected, YES!)

grenades (with various effects upon explosion)

flachettes (think "razor jack" aka Ripper disc thrower from Unreal/UT)

melee weapons (lightsabers, and "vibro" knives, spears, axes,.etc)

rocket launchers (big exploding projectiles)

That covers most of the bases for the basic FPS weapons. Most would add to that variations in the amount of shot in the gun, rate of fire, ammo capacity, and blast radius of explosions. Thus you can have shotguns, machineguns, pistols, sniper rifles, etc, using just the basic instant hit or projectile model of the gun.

However, as I said before, I think it's more important to have fun, cool, balanced weapons, than to have ones that are all "authentic star wars." A couple of SW weapons and a bunch of made-up ones would be fine with me.

Kurgan

Mercenary_Turned_Jedi
06-29-2001, 06:48 AM
Hey, yet another weapon design brought to you by our sponsors:

Ion-Engined Destroyer Disc:
Specs: Circular disc with ion-engines and an autopiloting program built in. Targets only specified targets. Can be flown by remote for scouting missions. Has built in cloaking generator.

:D

DeathBoLT
06-29-2001, 05:37 PM
stormtrooper rifle = should be like a m4 carbine.

repeater = gatling gun.

the zoom in function could become its own function and secondary fire could fire a RPG like the DT gun had..

MaDMaN
06-29-2001, 08:38 PM
I know this is a completely different game but i loved the compression rifle in Elite Force. It was my favorite weapon by far. :cool: Would usually take down pple easy with that 2cnd fire.. Something like it would be my 2cnd favorite weapon in the whole game i think (next to saber). Im sorry if this has already been said or its floating off topic or anything like that.

Good Day

DeathBoLT
07-01-2001, 03:08 AM
what types of weapons does elite force have? and descriptions too plz :p

DeathBoLT
07-03-2001, 08:34 PM
u guys never answered :confused:

DeathBoLT
07-04-2001, 08:22 PM
*bringing back to top so that there will be one weapons discussion :) *

Kurgan
07-04-2001, 11:14 PM
Well let me just PLAY THE GAME and find out, okay? ; )

I don't really have time to do that, but I could fire it up and use cheat codes and then tell you what's in it. You want me to do that?

I know right off hand you can use phasers and phaser rifles (beam-based projectile guns).

Kurgan