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Galland
06-04-2001, 01:33 AM
Not to dwell on this subject but am I alone in being VERY dissapointed that the cut-scenes will be done with the game engine?
I used to watch the ones from JK long after the game itself had been played out. To me they were the best Star Wars media since Empire; and that incudes that horrendous Episode None film. I expect the game will be wonderful; but judging from the Voyager EF cut-scenes I won't be franticly playing one more level just to view the next cinematic. No matter how well a game engine renders characters it still looks cartoony, and to me Star Wars is about grand space cinema, not comic book stuff. I guess there's no chance they'll reconsider; too bad. I think I'll re-install JK with my old savegames to watch the movie again tonight!

bsbuckeye21
06-04-2001, 03:03 AM
Well, I'm kinda glad they aren't doing the cheesy cutscenes with real actors. It keeps you better immersed as well.

So, that evens it out 1 to 1. ;)

NeJJa
06-04-2001, 03:16 AM
i say they hire squaresoft to do them :D

ZeroXcape
06-04-2001, 05:58 AM
Galland: I totally agree with you, I really dislike the fact that real actors aren't being used for JKII. Hopefully, these prerendered scenes can look something like the <a href="http://www.spe.sony.com/movies/finalfantasy/trailer_ffhome.html">Final Fantasy Trailer</a>. ;)

Archie
06-04-2001, 06:34 AM
It's unlikely to be prerendered. Personally I quite like in game cutscenes, but that's more from a technical viewpoint, in one sense they're harder to do, but it is better if one minute you're playing the game, and the you look up, see an x-wing flying over you, and land in front of you, and the cutscene just happens there, no change in continuity. That's mainly the immersion factor argument.

CaptainRAVE
06-04-2001, 04:48 PM
ANYONE who played EF would find the in game cutscenes are better as they seem to make it feel more interactive and closer to the gamer!! And with the amazing engine with all those extra polygons it'll be awsome!! :cool:

ed_silvergun
06-04-2001, 08:51 PM
Exactly, EF effectively demonstrated once and for all that in-engine cut-scenes are just as good if not better than pre-rendered FMVs.

CaptainRAVE
06-05-2001, 05:21 PM
They sure did :D

matt--
06-05-2001, 09:41 PM
I have never played EF, but I have faith in Raven.

Letalis
06-05-2001, 10:42 PM
In game fluidity is certianly very cool, going from playing to watching, but there was something more immersive in seeing the actors. I know it's not going to happen, but I did love them...
Still, I look forward to whatever we get! :D

Red_XIIII
06-05-2001, 11:02 PM
The cutsences in Mots were filmed in the engine, and they sucked, Raven could probably pull off ingame cutsences, but i perfer Highquality prerendered sences. Just my prefrence heh

Kwup
06-05-2001, 11:07 PM
Actors > CGM > In-game

CaptainRAVE
06-06-2001, 04:22 PM
But remember...the MOTS engine was one of the worst out at the time......and those cutscenes really had no effort put into them.....like the rest of LEC games it was rushed. I have total faith in Raven. Those EF cutscenes were actually more effective that real live actors!

CaptainRAVE
06-06-2001, 04:22 PM
All the reviews thought so too! :)

ed_silvergun
06-06-2001, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Red_XIIII:
<STRONG>The cutsences in Mots were filmed in the engine, and they sucked, Raven could probably pull off ingame cutsences</STRONG>

The cut-scenes in Elite Force are just a tad better than the ones in MotS. They're very realistic.

CaptainRAVE
06-06-2001, 04:36 PM
They sure are! And these graphics will be better than the ef graphics....awsome! :cool:

Finalnight
06-06-2001, 09:29 PM
I agree with you completely Galland, but they really should hire Squaresoft to do them if they don't wish to film them, WHY?? Final Fantasy VIII and IX, Period.

They should make sure they have the actor and actress who played Kyle and Jan Ors to at least do the voices, And it had damn well better look 4 times better than Elite Force.

Red_XIIII
06-06-2001, 09:35 PM
I've played EF i don't think so, Pre render sences are still the way to go in my book.

StormHammer
06-06-2001, 10:49 PM
I wish I had EF to know what you're talking about...but I don't, so here comes my opinion...

I too would have preferred pre-rendered cut scenes, based on the assumption that they could deliver a higher quality than what might be achieved in-engine. It is not just about polygon counts - it is about lighting, dynamism, and realism.

However, if they are definitely going to do the cut scenes in-engine, then I can only hope they will do them in a cinematic style, with lots of dynamic action, and possibly switching between different camera shots to heighten the effects.

I have to say I was not impressed with Heretic II's cut scenes. I thought SOF's were okay. I would like JKII's to be a lot better.

What I'm trying to say is, those models on screen need to ACT during a cut scene. They need to be able to express emotion, and keep the story going in a dynamic way. For all their faults, you cannot say that Jedi Knight's cut scenes did not have some decent action in them, or that they failed to add real depth to the story.

Part of this, by necessity, is showing events other than those in which you are partaking within the game. For example, the slaying of Rahn, after he has bisected Maw, was key to the story. It did not feature Kyle Katarn at all. It was part of the overall story.

The in-engine cut scenes should be no different, IMHO. I'd like to see ships travelling to/from planets, because space vessels are a huge part of the Star Wars experience. I'd also like to see the key enemies plotting, or engaged in their nefarious activities.

If the focus of the cut scenes is strictly from Kyle's point of view, then I really don't feel they will work as well as those of Jedi Knight in telling the story, and getting you to care about the characters.

I really hope they get some very good voice actors (preferably the original actors for Kyle and Jan, and possibly Mark Hamill for Luke), as that would lend a lot of weight to the cut scenes.

Lastly, I think it would really help if they could somehow implement that same style of transitions between scenes you see in the movies - the classic wipe from left to right, for example. It's a small point, but it is part of the style of Star Wars.

Just IMO...

Ki-Adi-Mundi
06-06-2001, 11:55 PM
There goes StormHammer with his Force Longpost again. I remember he said that Kurgan taught him how to do that on the JediKnight.Net boards.

I prefer the immersion factor. Because if I finish a level, and it got some adrinaline pumping, seeing some actors pop up on my screen just won't keep me going for the next level. But the in-game cutscenes will keep me in that zone to kill kill kill !! And to find that key or whatever to open the door to talk to the NPC to find another key to go back through the door again to go search for a stormie's body, that I left lying on the ground earlier after I killed him, so I can get a special data card off of him so my R2 droid can translate something for the NPC so I can advance through the next door only to find that I was betrayed by the NPC and get jumped by seventeen Storm Troopers and three Rodains.

Aragorn
06-07-2001, 12:09 AM
I really loved JKs cutsceens. They really added to the story and the way it was unfolded. There were many parts though that I found lacking in many ways...It is very possible that I was impressed more by the technology of FMV and not by the cutsceens themselves...
If I had to chose now between in game cinematics or FMVs I'd take the first one. Although impressive the FMVs usually abstract the player from the game itself. What I'd really like would be scripts like the ones in Half Life were everything was happening under the players perspective and not that of a storyteller. Ingame cutsceens could advance the story between levels but in no way while you are playing.

Jolts
06-07-2001, 10:34 AM
The thing I have noticed in most cutscenes in a lot of games is that they don't follow any of the basic rules of filming, like the 180 degree rule.

But besides that I think now that the player models have enough detail for full facial features they will start to use blend shapes(facial expressions)and that will help bring the characters more to life. Now we won't have to watch the characters bob their heads and wave their arms around like they are trying to bust out with the robot dance...

GonkH8er
06-07-2001, 10:48 AM
i dunno.... i kinda liked the old interstate 76 style cutscenes :)

Aragorn
06-07-2001, 11:25 AM
Interstate 76 cutsceens were beautifull!!
It wasn't their graphics but the way they were made.

GonkH8er
06-07-2001, 11:37 AM
the afros, the bellbottoms, the faces without mouths, the gerrrooooooooooovy soundtrack....

man that was a 'tee yuu double eff' TUFF game :)

CaptainRAVE
06-07-2001, 04:25 PM
Actors are expensive remember....RAVEN want to make all the profits they can. And anyway.....even if they dont have actors....its not as if we wont all buy the game :)

ed_silvergun
06-07-2001, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Ki-Adi-Mundi:
<STRONG>There goes StormHammer with his Force Longpost again. I remember he said that Kurgan taught him how to do that on the JediKnight.Net boards.</STRONG>

Pah. That's not a force long post. If you want to see some true force long posts, check out <A HREF="http://www.jediknight.net/cgi-bin/mboard/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=29&t=000010&p=">this thread</A>. I'm afraid that Kurgan is the undisputed über-force-long-posts-meister. ;)

Swoosh
06-07-2001, 07:55 PM
Just so you guys know, Kurgan is on vacation...that is why he's been gone the past week or so. I think he said he'll be back next week or weekend. He didn't ditch us. :)

Swoosh

Chewie_Rips
06-07-2001, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by Galland:
<STRONG>Not to dwell on this subject but am I alone in being VERY dissapointed that the cut-scenes will be done with the game engine?
I used to watch the ones from JK long after the game itself had been played out. To me they were the best Star Wars media since Empire; and that incudes that horrendous Episode None film. I expect the game will be wonderful; but judging from the Voyager EF cut-scenes I won't be franticly playing one more level just to view the next cinematic. No matter how well a game engine renders characters it still looks cartoony, and to me Star Wars is about grand space cinema, not comic book stuff. I guess there's no chance they'll reconsider; too bad. I think I'll re-install JK with my old savegames to watch the movie again tonight!</STRONG>

Chewie_Rips
06-07-2001, 09:48 PM
The subject of in-game, seamless cinematics , in my opinion, will not hender the JK2 Experiance, when refering to the older versions which used actors to deliver certain aspects of the story line. Seamless gameplay capabilites can only had to the quality, and realism to "feeling" like this adventure is real. Otherwise, with cinematic cut-scenes, you loose the continuity of the experiance, and the beleif that you in fact were responsible for what is happening on the screen. Even thought, in reality, all cinematics will be pre-determined to when they will surface, seamless transistions provides a more " hands-on" experiance,enabling the player to take credit for ariving at that protion of the game, with out feeling like they had to finish a level, or beat a villan, to get to the dialoge. What happend to the illussion of imaging things, as aposed to expecting them???

Ki-Adi-Mundi
06-07-2001, 11:45 PM
I wonder who trained Kurgan in the ways of Force Longpost. Perhaps I should seek training to sound and look more professional. :D (YaY! #100)

DrIfTeR
06-08-2001, 12:03 AM
If we wanna fly ships and stuff and goto diff planets,and i would love to,get star wars galaxy,and the space expansion should come out a bit before JO i believe.

Krayt Tion
06-08-2001, 12:08 AM
Some good points...

The most enjoyable cutscene experience for me would be an in-game one in which more effort, ala more player movement and facial features were added. This is based off two things:

1)Much like Chewie said above me, the same-engine scenes never detach me from the story/action as much as FMV or the like.

2)Cutscenes should be a slight reward for a player, there should always be something extra involved in them. The player should not only be rewarded by seeing the advancement of the story.

I think the in-game cutscenes with things like multiple camera angles and more realistic player movement can pull this off.

In Diablo II, the pre-rendered cutscenes where freakin amazing. Excellent quality and special effects. The contrast between the cutscenes and the crappy in-game 640X480 graphics was gargantuan. You could play to the cut scene and expect to see something beautiful. With JK2 there will be much less of a difference between anything they could pre-render and the actual in-game looks, especially if you have a decent computer.

TegSkywalker
06-08-2001, 07:33 AM
I personally think that Raven can pull off really good cutscenes in the Quake III Engine. They did a great job with Elite Force and its interaction with the storyline.


My best guess is they will learn from that experience and increase the quality tenfold on those lovely cutscenes. :eek:

[ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: TegSkywalker ]

joe pineapples
06-08-2001, 11:52 AM
Anyone took a look at the pre-rendered intro in the new i-war2 demo? - this is my benchmark - excellent anim/models/camera work/video-compression. This is the way it SHOULD be done.

joe

Rancor
06-08-2001, 12:11 PM
Sorry guys, but I just thought the JK cutscenes were pretty cheesy. One thing to consider, in EF they had the Quake3 style jointed bodies and the characters look bad at the neck point, the torso point, and where the arms meet the body. While it looks like they have a bit of work to do on kyle ( that clipping through his shoulder ), they are using some kind of smooth skinning technique so in general, the characters look significantly better. Plus they are using more polys for the characters. So, if people thought EF cinematics were cool looking and/or better for immersion..on some levels, what they'll be using for JKII will already look much better.

I'm sure it'll be fine, whatver they decide to use.

[ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: Rancor ]

GonkH8er
06-09-2001, 03:55 AM
as long as they look NOTHING like mots cutscenes, ill be happy :)


*cringe*

CaptainRAVE
06-09-2001, 09:02 AM
The MOTS engine sucked....as for JK's cutscenes they were sooooo cheesy.

Finalnight
06-09-2001, 11:27 PM
I repeat again SQUARE SHOULD DO THEM.
Anyone remember FFVIII where sometimes you were playing IN a movie, they are the coolest and most seamless FMV's i have ever seen.