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Vagabond
06-11-2001, 08:41 PM
So, Jan Ors will be back in this latest installment. It might just be me but I'd always thought Jan sort of had a crush on Kyle. She's got that innocent beauty about her, and Kyle's got that rugged, man-on-a-mission thing going on. It's only natural that the pheromones are going to fly.

So who here thinks that there will be a love story between Kyle and Jan? Who would like to see one?

Me? I'd kind of like to see something develop there - it seems natural. Of course, that means she'd be captured by the villain, and giving Kyle an extra-huge incentive to go rescue the love of his life.

So, I'll be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

StormHammer
06-11-2001, 08:56 PM
Yeah, Vag. I think that would fit pretty well. The three books based on Kyle's exploits do actually hint at such a relationship.

As for the villain holding onto her...hmmm, I don't know. It's sort of a tired old cliche, that one, IMO. I mean, Jedi Knight rescues damsel in distress?

It would be better if Kyle gets himself in a fix, and Jan has to do the rescuing...a la Leia rescues Han...

wardz
06-11-2001, 09:13 PM
This might be the incentive he needs to come out of retirement, nice thought..

wardz

OnlyOneCanoli
06-11-2001, 09:14 PM
Yeah, that would be interesting. I'd like to have it as an underlying plot, rather than have the game revolve around the love story. Haven't we saved the princess from Bowser and Zelda from Ganon enough? ;)

Vagabond
06-11-2001, 09:18 PM
Yep, Storm, haivng Jan do the rescuing would be a nice twist, and fitting within the Star Wars tradition.

Primarily, I was thinking that since Love is often held as most precious above all, that somehow this most perfect thing would need to be held in jeopardy, presumably by the nemesis.

This creates a huge motivator for a final conflict. Or, borrowing from Return of the Jedi, perhaps the villain is threatening to turn Jan to the Dark side, rather than kill her (presuming she Force sensitive).

This is fun to speculate about ;)

wardz
06-11-2001, 09:30 PM
It wont really be that long before we start to get some details through will it? I mean concrete details, none of the rumour stuff.

Shall we take bets on when the plot comes through from LEC?, I'd say *5 weeks max* - any improvements on 5? ;)


wardz

Yay, im past 100 posts! Doing it the normal way *cough cough* captain rave....

StormHammer
06-11-2001, 09:37 PM
Love can be an exceptionally powerful motivator. It was an underlying theme of ESB, and that turned out to be the best in the series, IMHO. Another film I enjoyed immensely in which love played a major part was Braveheart. Wallace took revenge on the entire English nation for injustice, which was triggered by the death of his wife. In a way, Gladiator reflected on this theme - Maximus is thinking about home and his family at the start and end of the film.

It could make for a very strong underlying theme in Jedi Outcast. As I said before, the foundations were laid mostly in the books, but not really explored in any depth.

In a way, Kyle's feelings for Jan did arise in Jedi Knight - the internal conflict during the cut scene when he could either choose to kill or save her. I'd like to think in the Light version that it is his love for Jan that prevents him from turning to the Dark Side. :)

wardz
06-11-2001, 09:44 PM
Good point, ESB was my favourite as well.

However, this talk about love could potentially make it a very compelling game BUT they must do it right or it could turn out to be very cheesy, and instead of people wanting to see the cutscenes again, their finger will be going straight for the ESC key every time...

Love would be better as an underlying theme rather than a main story anyway IMO, and as much as I think it could be good, they are going to focus on this 'dark jedi' sort of person again..

We will have to wait and see!

wardz

matt--
06-11-2001, 11:15 PM
i give it 6 weeks. They'll crack by then.

Krayt Tion
06-11-2001, 11:25 PM
Of course, that means she'd be captured by the villain, and giving Kyle an extra-huge incentive to go rescue the love of his life.

Jan was captured by Jabba along with Kyle, both were taken aboard Jabba's personal ship after it tractor beamed the Moldy Crow as it was leaving Nar Shaddaa. After Kyle escaped his death-by-Kell-Dragon fate he had to resque Jan, who we did finally get to see in game when he found her.

This all happened in the original Dark Forces of course... they were definitely still friends after that from what we can gather.

Hmm, nothing else to add at this time, except that the plot of JK2 should be deeper imo then anything they've done in DF or JK.

Aragorn
06-12-2001, 12:18 AM
I don't know, I'm more of a Crow fan when it comes to matters of love and justice...
For me this movie proves that there is nothing cliche...it all comes down to the way you present things to an audience.
The "save the princess" kind of plot is great for games like Donkey Kong or something. If LA starts thinking about making a plot like that, they'll have to put a lot of effort in it 'cause otherwise it will be as cliche as it could get...

matt--
06-12-2001, 03:00 AM
They told us about AI sidekicks. Maybe Jan is one of them.

GonkH8er
06-12-2001, 03:17 AM
i wouldnt mind doing a bit of NPC interacting with jan ;)

matt--
06-12-2001, 03:26 AM
Great. Now that you've come up with that in your twisted head, their are gonna be nude mods. Thank you.

cliffe
06-12-2001, 04:15 AM
Are you saying you want to see Kyle & Jan do the wild thing?

Morpheus
06-12-2001, 04:24 AM
ugh. a love story?

Maybe something that ties in with the EU?

Hopefully this game's plot will be as good as JK, which was a damn entertaining game IMHO.

-The all powerful M.

matt--
06-12-2001, 04:24 AM
Maybe it could be a hidden feature
like you fire up ur dvd drive, enter a passcode, whatever

GonkH8er
06-12-2001, 09:18 AM
who knows.... maybe if we find ALL the secrets in the game, we'll get to see some action

Finalnight
06-12-2001, 02:32 PM
In Baldur's Gate II you get tons of action, and you can have it over and over and over... :o :D ;)

Vagabond
06-12-2001, 02:41 PM
How did this discussion devolve from discussing love as a progression of Kyle's and Jan's relationship to cyber-porn? It's fairly safe to say that we won't be seeing any nude people in JKII.

Did anyone ever wonder if there would have been any jealously brewing between Jan and Mara Jade in Mysteries of the Sith? Could have turned into a real cat fight ;)

Wilhuf
06-12-2001, 02:54 PM
Clearly Jan has feelings for the Katarn. Why else would she show such dedication to him?

I like the idea about Jan being somehow corrupted by the Dark Jedi, Thrawn (the mastermind) and their Force-channeling technology.

Raven/LEC need to develop that story, and wrap it around lots of laser blasts, stormies, GNK Power droids, the Force, Dark Jedi and lightsabers.

Nothing wrong with the old 'damsel in distress' story. The reason it's used so much is because it works.

CaptainRAVE
06-12-2001, 06:22 PM
Ok there are feelings there.....but theres nothing wrong with a man and a women being friends. Thats just sexist.

Vagabond
06-12-2001, 06:48 PM
What if Kyle or Jan had siblings? Or, what if Kyle and Jan were brother and sister?

Them being brother and sister would definitely fall within the Star Wars tradition, but would it be too much? For me, that was a big bite to swallow the first time around, so I don't know that it would be palatable as a second-helping.

So let's take a closer look at Kyle or Jan having siblings. Oh! I have it!

What if Kyle had a brother - a brother that was also strong with the Force - a brother that had succumbed to the dark side of the Force? This would be a good story. It's perfect! It's a story about temptation, disgrace, family, and redemption. Kyle's brother once a promising officer with the Alliance, suddenly disappeared and hadn't been heard from in the years since. The chilling truth is that his brother had uncovered an ancient Jedi artifact filled with the secrets of the dark side. At first repulsed, then torn and ashamed, Kyle's brother is soon seduced by the dark side, thus beginning his lustful quest for power.

After years of relative peace, Kyle is summoned by the New Republic, and ordered to clandestinely investigate strange reports in the outer rim territories. Reluctantly, Kyle agreed, and upon arrival started putting the pieces of the puzzle together - a Dark Jedi. Kyle must face him. And it's then does Kyle realized that it's his own long-lost brother. Does he fight him? Does he kill him? Does he attempt to save him? The conflict here is great and compelling. I personally love this idea, even if I did come up with it on my own ;)

Granted, it's a bit like the Vader / Luke conflict, but this is brother -vs- brother, surely something that many of us males can relate to.

So, what do you think?

matt--
06-12-2001, 07:19 PM
Interesting. Such a touching, moving plot would be integral to getting really involved with the game.

wardz
06-12-2001, 07:45 PM
thats a nice idea vag, Bro v.s Bro. Whoever wins gets to rag Jan!

Nah, only kidding. That would be interesting, having to destory your own brother.. it would be a very immersive plot -slighlty cathartic but never the less, its a new idea to mull over...


wardz

StormHammer
06-12-2001, 08:09 PM
Yeah, that's a really good concept, Vag. it could be even better if it's a long-lost identical twin brother - because then you could introduce elements of mistaken identity... Except for Jan. She knows Kyle, knows his battle with the Dark Side, and enlists Luke's help (in the form of some Jedi students) to find Kyle before the authorities can kill him.

Then Kyle has to try and discover the truth. Is it a clone? A trickster? Or a long-lost relative? Along the way, he has to deal with people the look-alike has wronged, and not necessarily by killing them.

Then in the final battle, he faces a mirror-image of himself...a Dark Kyle...the very thing he feared the most... ;)

Vagabond
06-12-2001, 08:19 PM
Nice spin, Storm. I wonder if Raven is reading this posting, harvesting it for ideas, and maybe looking for a couple good writers to employ ;)

StormHammer
06-12-2001, 08:54 PM
That would certainly be sweet, Vag... ;)

Of course, we could always collaborate on what happens to Kyle between MotS and JKII. I've been thinking about writing some fan fic about that time. I mean, there are nearly four years to cover - and he could have got into a lot of trouble in that time. :D

bsbuckeye21
06-12-2001, 11:27 PM
eh... I dunno...

I'm really not looking for a love story in JK2. Video games just never really get it right (so far). Let's say that an interest does develope during JK2... so then what? That really doesn't make the game any better; it just would be more of a "Oh, so they like each other and there'll be Kyle Jr.'s running around. That's nice... Now uh, back to some gameplay please!" :)

(Just IMHO, but am I really alone on this?)

matt--
06-12-2001, 11:39 PM
Wanting to destroy your brother. Realistic...Sometimes.

Aragorn
06-12-2001, 11:44 PM
The only game I remember that succeded in bringing a story like this was Gabriel Knight Sins of the Fathers. Of course that was an adventure game and with a resolution of 640x480 and 256 colours the gamer had to imagine a lot of things that were not as clear as they could be in his monitor...
And of course that was the reason it worked...
Of course the voice acting was perfect with actors like Tim Curry and Mark Hammil on the leading roles and that really helped the overall story of the game.

If there won't be enough effort put in an attempt like that I honestly believe that JKO will have a story we all have seen many times and speaking for myself wouldn't like to see again...

matt--
06-13-2001, 12:24 AM
So your guess is generic story?

Vagabond
06-13-2001, 12:39 AM
Just let me clarify that I don't think the love story should be the focus of JKII. Rather, if one develops, then that creates a very strong motive for Kyle to protect Jan, or the other way around. Obviously people who love each other are going to be highly motivated in that regard.

Also, the idea about the brothers is a conflict, in my opinion. On the one hand you want to destroy the evil Dark Jedi, but he's your own brother. What do you do? If you kill your brother, that's evil. If you let him continue his reign of terror, that's also evil. You should want to save him, but that may not be possible, and you may have no other choice but to kill him. Do you commit an evil act so that others may be saved? Or, perhaps an even darker option - you join him. This is a very interesting area to explore, in my opinion.

Yes, Storm, some fan ficiton might be fun :)

Aragorn
06-13-2001, 01:07 AM
No, perhaps I wasn't to clear.
Many if not all of Vags and Stormhammers ideas were IMHO very interesting.
What I fear is that with only one year for Raven to develop the game they might not give the attention a story like this needs.
They should look for clever and meaningfull dialogue, make interesting characters that have strong motivations for their actions and direct the cutsceens of the game so that you won't see 3000 polys at your screen but characters you can relate to just like you would in a good movie...
I somehow feel that this is dificult to accomplish in so litle time.
I really wish that good gameplay (SP+MP) and a great story were both present in this game and I really wouldn't mind waiting 2 years instead of 1 for the game to be completed but Raven and LEC seem to have other plans.
All I'm saying is that I'd take anytime a simple story instead of one that is complicated just for being complicated.

Angry Drunken Ewok
06-13-2001, 03:29 AM
Apparently none of you guys have read the three Dark Forces books by Dark Horse...Im half way through the second one and both professed(to themselves)their love for each the other....oh btw the books are called Soldier for the Empire,Rebel Agent,and Jedi Knight

The Wanderer
06-13-2001, 07:33 AM
hmmmmmmmmmm verrrrrrry interesting indeed. I like it, and also I don't like it. Only because I think that unless handled properly it's in danger of being a bit on the cheesy side, but I have to say it has potential. And it's much better than yet ANOTHER unknown Dark Jedi popping out of the wood work years after the jedi were supposedly all but extinct (darn, that wacky Vader sure did a shoddy job of wiping out all of the jedi, what kind of evil messiah was he anyway?)

To have a good villian, you really need that kind of tension between him and the protagonist. The best villians are the villians you can hate (unlike Darth -yawn, look at my cool gimmick lightsaber- Maul) The other way to do that is to have the villian kidnap Jan, and I don't care what anyone else here says, that's just stupid. it's been done twice now, it's VERY cliched, and it's stupid. tho I do like the idea of Jan popping in and saving Kyle's butt.

And reguarding the whole Jan/Kyle relaionship thing, I think that should remain in the background, I don't think it needs to be central to the story. Watch sitcoms, once crushes bloom into actual relationships things get less interesting.

what I'm noticing here is that it seems like most of us are really most looking forward to JO being a good story based game. I hope Raven is listening.

GonkH8er
06-13-2001, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by Letalis:
<STRONG>Incest is best....</STRONG>

Vagabond
06-13-2001, 12:11 PM
Okay, here's another interesting twist:

Instead of the Dark Jedi being Kyle's brother, what if he was Jan's brother? Now what does Kyle do? If he kills Jan's brother, Kyle's and Jan's relationship would probably never be the same. But he can't let the Dark Jedi continue doing all his Dark Jedi things. And Kyle doesn't really have the same personal motivation to save this guy as he would if it were his own brother, but if he loves Jan, then maybe that would be the motivation for him to try to save this guy.

Or maybe Jan jumps in and saves him somehow, maybe sacrificing herself. Maybe she tries to save her brother, but her brother's minions capture or kill her, forcing her brother to turn toward the light. Of course, this option has the effect of pretty much leaving Kyle (us) out of the action.

And to answer the question above, no, I've never read the Dark Forces books. I wonder if I should?

[ June 13, 2001: Message edited by: Vagabond ]

Syndrix
06-13-2001, 03:38 PM
I would prefer the "Jans Brother" scenario, Facing your brother, or a Dark Kyle i.e your inner demons, is a bit of a cliche. After we find out who our nemisis is, Perhaps after long and hard thought, even in the face of your feelings for Jan, you decide to kill her brother. Then after a hard battle to find and get to him, you reach him. After an epic battle, during which you try to convince him to join the light side, you gain the upper hand. Whispering words of regret and sorrow to an absent Jan you prepare the final blow. Just then (enter ship here) comes flying down and picks up Jans brother, over a speaker ( do they have these) we here Jans voice. Obviously distruaght she says she's sorry but could not let her brother die, she believes ther is still good left in him. Then we hear a scream and hear here brothers voice, he laughs saying that his sister does not know the power of the dark side, but she soon will.... The ship acends into the sky with Kyle left crying out Jans name and wondering what that cryptic message her brother said meant?

Vagabond
06-13-2001, 04:15 PM
Great idea, Syndrix. And your suggestion could go a couple of interesting ways.

The first, as you suggested, is Jan rescuing her brother in an attempt to save him - to turn him to the light. She gets betrayed as her brother intends to turn her instead.

Another idea is that Jan decided to rescue her brother, regardless of whether he's good or bad. If she needs to turn to the dark side to rescue him, then so be it. So the conclusion of JKII could end in a cliff-hanger, with Jan turning to the dark side, and becoming her brother's apprentice.

This option has a couple of great benefits: (1) We'll get a JKIII :) , (2) It's an incredible motivator for Kyle to bring Jan back to the light.

I wouldn't see Jan turning to the dark side as her preferred choice, but she may do it out of love for her brother. What she will have done is to accept the offer that Luke refused when Vader asked Luke to join him. Maybe she has the hidden motive of turning to the dark side only so that she can earn her brother's trust and then turn him back to the light, which leaves another interesting possibility. Maybe in a JKIII, at the climax, she does in fact turn her brother back to the light, but only at the cost of her own life. Her brother is saved, Jan is dead, and Kyle is heart-broken. It's a tragedy about sacrifice and salvation.

[ June 13, 2001: Message edited by: Vagabond ]

Wilhuf
06-13-2001, 05:02 PM
Mysteries of the Sith touched on some of these ideas, Vagabond. I do believe Mara Jade faces her own evil twin in Mysteries of the Sith. I believe she also faces a corrupted, twisted 'dark Kyle.' Mara must decide at the end whether to fight and destroy her own friend, Katarn.

I am not sure we want to go down that path again.

However, the concept of facing your own family or friends, who have been corrupted, seems pretty consistent thoughout Star Wars and the 'expanded universe.'

Still, I'd rather fight Thrawn, evil military genius and plotter, and his henchmen, than kill my twin brother, who I don't really know. :cool:

Vagabond
06-13-2001, 05:28 PM
Even though Thrawn is a great villain (from Vilnius), we already know that he will survive as he still needs to make a small cameo in the Heir to the Empire (HttE) trilogy ;) Plus, his genius lies more in fleet tactics and strategy, and would probably be more difficult to realize in a game about Jedi, since it's at such a lower, more personal scope, than capital ships.

Still, it could work with Thrawn as the mastermind over the Dark Jedi, as he was in HttE, but again, that too has been visited before. Plus, at least for me, I sort of feel more detached to that storyline. I mean, ya, there's the bad guy, and you want to kill him, but the emotional attachment isn't as strong, at least for me.

But maybe if Raven takes their time to present a Dark Jedi that we can really hate, or love, or sympathize with, then the emotional attachment - that thing that really pulls you into the story - will fall into place. I just don't want a cookie-cutter villain with lots of force powers to fight at the end of the game. I want to know him (or her), I want his motives to be complex and conflicting, I want it to be personal. If it's not, then it feels like I'm fighting just another Storm Trooper.

Oh, how about this: using the previous idea about Jan turning to the Dark side so that she can save her brother, what if Jan had to fight Kyle? That's about the biggest conflict those two could ever have! They both love each other, and now they must fight. Jan, trying to earn her brother's trust, must choose between her brother, and her love - Kyle. That would be pretty interesting :cool:

[ June 13, 2001: Message edited by: Vagabond ]

Wilhuf
06-13-2001, 06:40 PM
Now how about this: we learn that Thrawn is actually the father of Jan's dark jedi twin sister Anne. Kyle's dark twin brother Lyle loves Anne.

Now, don't forget, Thrawn also has a secret twin brother (Brawn). Brawn is basically a granola hippy who lives on Endor, being in 'nature' with the Ewoks. Thrawn is very embarrassed by Brawn's 'slacker' attitude. (Get that haircut, hippy, you'll never amount to anything!)

But Thrawn (being not only scheming, but overly protective) doesn't want Lyle near his daughter Anne. The great plot twist would be that at the end, Thrawn must cooperate with Brawn, Jan and Kyle to fight Ann and Lyle!

Vagabond
06-13-2001, 06:49 PM
Ya, but who's on first?

;)

Vagabond
06-13-2001, 07:03 PM
Seriuosly though, surley the relationship between Kyle and Jan will progress or change in some fashion. I mean, The Empire Strikes Back, argued by many to be the best Star Wars movie, had a love story in it - between Han and Leia - it wasn't the focus of the movie, but it was there and it helped to progress the story. I just think something interesting should happen there. It doesn't have to be her going to the dark side, it doesn't have to be a love story, but something compelling would help pull you into the story.

Does anyone have any interesting ideas they'd like to share about this? Ideas not involving the Rhyming Family clans? ;)

The Wanderer
06-13-2001, 07:07 PM
excelent sarcasm/commentary on where this post is heading wilhuf

Vagabond
06-13-2001, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
<STRONG>excelent sarcasm/commentary on where this post is heading wilhuf</STRONG>

Which is? What are your thoughts about Kyle and Jan, The Wanderer? Do you have a preference? Do you not care? Just curious.

Wilhuf
06-13-2001, 07:18 PM
Just joking around a bit. I like the family intrigue concept.

It's absolutely true that there should be an involved and engaging plot for JKO, hopefully something that challenges us at least a little.

By challenge, I don't mean a game that is hard to complete. I mean a plot that kinda sorta challenges our ideals.

Like for instance, when Brawn challenges Thrawn to a Galactic Basket Weaving contest on Endor, Thrawn faces the moral dilemma that he must either suffer the annoying Ewoks, or destroy the Ewoks. But in doing so, he thereby insults his brother, who has come to understand them. The agony of consequence!

The story speaks a universal truth. I think when I say this, I am speaking for us all: we all must face the decision whether or not to accept Ewoks. ;)

wardz
06-13-2001, 07:19 PM
I don't think it was meant to be insulting vag. Well I hope its not for his sake...

wardz

Vagabond
06-13-2001, 07:31 PM
Oh, I'm not insulted, not by Wilhuf. I know him well and know he's just being silly. I'm silly quite often myself, as Wilhuf can no doubt attest. Off-the-wall comments and tall tales are favorite past-times of mine while in the midst of a multiplayer game :)

wardz
06-13-2001, 07:41 PM
I dont mean by wilhulf, i know from OWK.net that everyone their was civil and polite..

wardz

StormHammer
06-13-2001, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Vagabond:
<STRONG>Seriuosly though, surley the relationship between Kyle and Jan will progress or change in some fashion. I mean, The Empire Strikes Back, argued by many to be the best Star Wars movie, had a love story in it - between Han and Leia - it wasn't the focus of the movie, but it was there and it helped to progress the story. I just think something interesting should happen there. It doesn't have to be her going to the dark side, it doesn't have to be a love story, but something compelling would help pull you into the story.

Does anyone have any interesting ideas they'd like to share about this? Ideas not involving the Rhyming Family clans? ;)</STRONG>

Yeah, I think you're right that the love story angle should be kept simmering in the background. It certainly shouldn't detract too much from the rest of the game. At the same time, the central story must be compelling.

Taking ESB as the example again, the plot in that film revolved mostly around Luke, and his confrontation with his father Vader. Luke had to come to terms with his origins, and Vader started the long arduous crawl back into the Light - or he would have killed his son without a thought. And, of course, Luke really began to learn how to become a Jedi. On the face of it, that doesn't seem like a compelling story, but it was the way in which it was told that captured the imagination.

What I'm trying to say is, there need not be a complex plotline to make JKII into a good game. On the other hand, I too would like to see some real substance to the storyline. If it was on a par with JK, that would probably be enough - especially if told through more scripted events, and interaction with NPCs.

As stated earlier, Lucasarts have not given Raven a very long development time for JKII, and bearing this in mind, I hope they will focus on fine-tuning the gameplay. The story has to be solid, although it could be simple, and I agree that the key villain at the very least should have some real depth.

We hated (or loved) Vader because he killed in one of his very first scenes. He kept on killing. Maul was weaker because we only ever saw him kill one person - Qui-Gon. He had no history of Evil for us to use as a reference point - and if anything, has become an even more popular character as a result because he had a cool lightsaber, flash moves, and a neat tattoo.

JKII's arch-villain should have a history of conflict and death. His/her path should be littered with corpses - and this should be made known up front, IMO, as it was with Vader. If we cannot see them killing in a cut scene, we should at least hear about some major catastrophe caused by them which has killed a great many.

Otherwise what is the compulsion to rid the universe of their foul stench?


As for the three books based on Dark Forces, you should definitely read them Vagabond. They add quite a bit to the original story, and show some insights into Kyle's father, Kyle's time as an Imperial, and Jan and Kyle's relationship. They also have some pretty cool art inside. ;)

Wilhuf
06-13-2001, 07:55 PM
JKII's arch-villain should have a history of conflict and death. His/her path should be littered with corpses - and this should be made known up front, IMO, as it was with Vader.

This is Grand Admiral Thrawn.

StormHammer
06-13-2001, 08:31 PM
Wilhuf... :D

Thrawn was a great villain, I agree, but we've already had stories about him. I'm not so sure that he should reappear in JKII.

For me, part of the attraction of the Dark Forces series has been following the story of a new central character (Kyle), and tackling new threats to the universe. through him. You didn't really know which wat the story was going in JK, because it was original, with original characters.

With Thrawn we already have preconceptions. We know that he is a master strategist, a plotter, a tactician, and an art lover. We know some of what makes Thrawn tick, and therefore some of the unpredictability of the story is lost. For example, if you entered a chamber that contained Thrawn, the first thing you would probably do as a Force user is look for Ysalimiri...or Noghri.

With completely new characters, you should have no preconceptions, and have no idea of the feats of which they are capable. That forms part of the enjoyment for me.

This is why I sometimes get a little tired of the EU, because the writers keep returning to the core characters seen in the films. Although it is interesting to see how they develop over time, sometimes it feels more like immersing yourself in a TV soap (a genre I do not enjoy).

By the same token, I think mistakes have been made in the EU by introducing some totally radical concepts which would probably be more suited to Star Trek, and a quest for even bigger and badder weapons than the Death Star, some of which seemed out of place.

Sometimes it is useful to return to basics, and just tell a human story. A story about the struggle of the few against the might of the many, and the sacrifices they must make to succeed. Although such a story could be told in the context of a Thrawn scenario, there is still the problem that Thrawn is not a new character, and that we would have preconceptions about that character.

A new villain, with new tactics, new powers, new allies, would be fundamentally more interesting due to all of the unknown factors, IMHO. ;)

The only true constant in the Dark Forces saga should be Kyle Katarn, because the series tells his individual story. I would even have to say that Jan could be expendable - although, in another way, I've come to think of her in a similar way to Wedge Antilles. A survivor. Someone who faces trials by fire, yet somehow, somehow manages to come through those trials.

Just a thought.

Vagabond
06-13-2001, 08:53 PM
Wilhuf, isn't Thrawn pretty much unknown until he shows up in Heir to the Empire? If Kyle confronts him now, then Kyle would have to be killed. If he survived, he'd obviously alert the New Republic about Thrawn's existence. Even though it would be neat to have Thrawn as the mastermind behind the Dark Jedi, I think Raven could run into some continuity problems if they take that path.

But I agree with StormHammer, the villain must be very strong - there must be a history and a compelling reason to hate, love, or otherwise relate to him. Whether it's by him hurting many unknown people, or hurting a few people close Kyle, he has to be clearly evil. Of course, this risks appearing cliche, but hey, this is a game about good and evil, so some of that's unavoidable.

Oh, and Storm,


I would even have to say that Jan could be expendable - although, in another way, I've come to think of her in a similar way to Wedge Antilles. A survivor. Someone who faces trials by fire, yet somehow, somehow manages to come through those trials.


Nicely said. To me, Wedge represents the hero of the common man. And while he avoids the spotlight, preferring to take a supporting role, this man of modest means has nonetheless achieved greatness, thus commanding our respect and admiration.

Regarding Jan, if she were to die, I would prefer her death be appropriatley meaningful, and not handled in a casual way. She is a well-liked character, after all.

Speaking for myself, I'd like to see her prominence elevated in JKII. This could lead to a spin-off of Jan Ors games, or even more JK games.

[ June 13, 2001: Message edited by: Vagabond ]

wardz
06-13-2001, 08:59 PM
The thing that made Maul and bit laughable was the fact that he was seen as a thick henchman who couldn't think...

Vader was scary because he was intelligent and calcualting - Luring Luke to bespin via Leia and Han.

Maul looked stupid because despite being a very good saberist or whatever word you want, Vader looked like he talked back to Palpatine and had some control over his actions where as Maul looked like the Emporer's lapdog.

A villain has to be IMO a flawed genius or something like it. Someone who promised so much yet never quite made it, like Skywalker who had exceptional talent but could not control it...

Anyone else agree?

wardz

Vagabond
06-13-2001, 09:35 PM
wardz, yes, a good villain should be intelligent. I mean, you can still have a dumb villain, like Maul was, but you don't really hate him. I have to admit that part of me felt sympathy for Maul because it seemed like he was so naive that he didn't realize he was being taken advantage of.

Smarter villains, while not necessarily strong, are more dangerous, in my opinion. Darth Vader, the Emperor, and Grand Admiral Thrawn - all were intelligent, some of them frighteningly so.

Vader, he seemed more coniving with a good dose of brute strength to go along with his prowess in the Force. Not necessarily a genius, but definitely not one of the dull tools in the shed either.

The Emperor, he was a highly intelligent, and incredibly strong with the Force. That, combined with his unlimited arrogance made him one of my favorite villains of all time. But as we all know, his over-confidence was also the weakness that helped bring about his downfall.

Grand Admiral Thrawn is by far the last person I want to face in a space battle. An enemy finding out they were facing Thrawn would likely demoralize their entire force. Again, though, he knew he was a genius and this created a false sense of safety for him. I found it very interesting that he relished the surprise of the Nogrhi assasin that killed him - he admired the fact that he had been outsmarted, and this made me like him as a villain even more.

I guess to summarize, in my opinion, a villain has to have some aspect about them that makes them seem dangerous. It can be brute strength, power, intelligence, experience, history, etc. I think a villain is more interesting when he/she is a combination of the above, and when there personality of that villain is fleshed out in exquisite detail :cool:

wardz
06-13-2001, 10:14 PM
Yeah,

I could empathise with Darth Maul, he was never gonna win, at least with Vader you could sense he was powerful (and had a chance of winning) - like you said he killed someone immediately which added to the threat.

Palpatine was good because he had to use his mind more than his body because he was so crippled by the force - yet at the same time it gave him that power, its like a vicious circle...


A good villain must have intelligence, a GOOD motive like betrayal, revenge. Taking over the universe is wearing a bit thin in general - but it CAN still be done well...


wardz

GonkH8er
06-13-2001, 10:21 PM
speaking of mara facing kyle in MOTS, i must have sat there for a good hour trying to kill kyle :)

it was only when i gave up and put away my lightsaber that i realised thats how you beat the idiot hehehe

i was so bloody angry.....

matt--
06-13-2001, 10:44 PM
What exactly is the galactic plumberman alliance?

Wilhuf
06-13-2001, 11:15 PM
The idea of a conniving military mastermind, manipulating a cadre of paranoid Dark Jedi to further his own agenda sounds entertaining. Just the back and forth between Thrawn and his Jedi cadre, the empty promises, the manipulated rivalries, the pitting of one against the other, would be a good backstory. Thrawn is the worthy adversary we seek.

If Jedi Outcast occurs after Vision of the Future, Thrawn would be long gone. So there's really no way Thrawn could be an enemy if the story were to be consistent with the Zahn novel. Guess we're stuck with Ann and Lyle. ;)

The Wanderer
06-13-2001, 11:37 PM
Sorry, didn't mean to sound rude. When I said that was good sarcasm, I wasn't refering to a relationship between Jan and Kyle, I was refering to the weird Jan's bother/identical twin plots and what not :) it was getting a bit strange and convoluted for my tastes, but maybe that's just me. I'm a Spider-Man fan and five years ago they did a lot of convoluted things with Spidey and clones ::shivers run up my spine:: I'd rather not go back there. lol

As far as my oppinions about Kyle and Jan go, yes I definately see a potential relationship there, but I don't think it's anything the upcoming game needs to focus on. And I like Jan a lot more than Mara Jade. Besides, once you have two characters express their feelings about each other, you lose all of the tension. That's why you usually never see the big kiss till the end of the movie.

I think someone brought this up earlier, but if you want some good insights into the relationship between Jan and Kyle, pick up the first book, Soldier for the empire. It's actually a quality read. It's about Kyle during his imperial days as a young cadet, I highly reccomend it for any DF/JK fan. However, don't bother with the next two books, you're really better off just playing Jedi Knight again.

GonkH8er
06-13-2001, 11:40 PM
matt- never u mind :)


wilhuf, you can answer that question if you wish...

The Wanderer
06-14-2001, 12:29 AM
Ok, this is either going to be a brilliant post, or long series of silly ideas, I'm really not sure...

I was just brainstorming on the whole villian thing, and I think I came up with a neat idea of who the villian should be, and there are several factors for my choice...

A. the villian needs to be a dark jedi. In a game about a Jedi knight, an evil Jedi makes for the perfect foil. Also, admit it, if this game doesn't end with a dramatic saber battle,on some level it'll be dissapointing.

B. We need to hate the villian because of some history of evil, and they need to have a good motivation for being evil.

C. There needs to be a darned good reason for Kyle to come out of retirement and risk fallling to the darkside. If it were just any old bad guy with a take over the galaxy scheme, Luke would take care of it, why should Kyle get involved?

I've mulled all of these things over, and I've come up with.... Saris from JK!! Why??

Well obviously, she's a dark Jedi. That fits requirement one.

Being that she's a villian from JK (Jerek's right hand girl), we have a history with Saris. She's tried to corrupt Kyle to the dark side before, she could try to do so again.

And as far as motive? being that Kyle nearly killed her in battle, (I'm figuring we can say she survived somehow) she'd have adequate motive for revenge. Hell, give her a big scar across her face/chest from her battle with Kyle, and that doubles the need for revenge.

Ok, now here's where I really get fancy and where I tie things neatly into the topic for this post, and also where I start worrying if it's getting too silly...

Kyle needs to have adequate motive for coming out of retierment, right? Here I go... Now that we know Jan's in the game, everyone's speculating on wether or not they should hook up. Wellll this does take place 4 - 5 years after JK, what if... Kyle and Jan have already hooked up. Kyle settles down for a nice quiet life with Jan back on sullust on his father's farm and started a family. Saris, recouperated, sees the time is ripe for revenge. In an opening cutscene Saris (who we see has scars across her face) and some troops bust into the Katarn farm destroying equipment, and furniture. Catching him off guard she could kick Kyle around a bit (very good for making her seem tough, and even more powerful) Then she either...

A. kills Kyle's family, leaving him alive just so he can suffer, and giving him some great motive to get back into gear and getting some revenge himself. His need for revenge could play on a theme of Kyle being on the verge of falling to the darkside. The only reason I don't go ith this option is because I'm rather fond of Jan :) butt never fear, there's also...

B. or, in getting revenge, knowing he'll likely grow to be strong in the force, she kidnaps Kyle's young child in hopes of raising him to be her dark jedi apprentice. (them Dark Jedi just love having somebody to mold in their image) this also gives Kyle adequate motive to get back into the Jedi gig. The only flaw I see, is why wouldn't Saris just kill him then and their. Maybe a last minute escape with Jan??

I know, long post, I'm sorry :) what do you think??

Vagabond
06-14-2001, 01:08 AM
The only flaw I see, is why wouldn't Saris just kill him then and their.


Probably the same reason that the villain always tells the captured good-guy how he commited all these terrible crimes, just before the bad-guy gets arrested ;)

I'll have more comment on your post a little later, but let me just say quickly that I think your ideas, as with many in this entire thread, are very interesting.

Syndrix
06-14-2001, 12:56 PM
As is relevent to what The Wanderer said, I like the ideas but I dont really agree with the Kyle settles down scenario. I know he has grown older but he's still reasonably young and in the universe he lives in, fraught with danger, as it is I dont think he would have settled down just yet.


That and I would prefer to pick up as Kyle an "outcast", so to speak, a person people talk of simply as "The Wanderer" perhaps? A nomadic soul, a "Vagabond" of sorts. Peoplke think he's quite "Wilhuf".... wait a sec, that last on doesnt really work. Hmmm perhaps I could turn that into a saying, Man that dude is really Wilhuf... Perhaps not.


Anyway, onto topics of a more relevent nature. Saris is good villian (assuming we say she lived), apart from one thing. She never really stood out, granted she was evil and played with Kyle but she just didnt have the qualities IMHO of a reoccuring villian. Perhaps if she made a surprise and totally unannonced entrance to get revenge, leaving the player going WOW I didnt think I'd see her again, it would be quite satisfing to finish the battle, but as the main evil doer, perhaps its just me but I cant see it. I think it is in Raven's best interest to create a new villian. Not only with this comes surprise, wonder and stary eyed amazement on the behalf of us, the gamer. But also with the appropriate back story, which we dont see just read, and the more pivotal story which we see and are submerged in, it would be quite easy for Raven to bring into being a villian we despise yet is mysterious and original.


As for why Kyle comes out of retirement? Well its quite easy to bring the action to Kyle, as you suggested with the idea about his family. I would prefer it was to happen through other means though. I do like you idea about his child being kidnapped, as other people have speculated about friends/brothers/sister/children getting in trouble all through this post. And in one case someone was brilliant enough to put all these people into one storyline. Any guesses Who? The reason I like this is because to really get the player disliking the villian and really interest them there most likely will have to be some personal issues of some kind, otherwise there is the risk we will feel disconnected and can will not relate to him.

StormHammer
06-14-2001, 05:28 PM
A story that is more personal to Kyle would probably make a good deal of sense, Wanderer.

As we know, Kyle has forsaken the Force for fear of turning to the Dark Side. He would need a powerful motive to return to the life of a Jedi. As someone else asked previously, why isn't Luke or the Jedi from his academy taking care of this particular problem?

The only reason I can think of is that the new threat has ties to Kyle's past in some fashion, and he decides that he must confront his past without Luke's assistance.

Or, if there are no ties to his past, then perhaps the threat becomes more personal - as you suggested, a member of his family is killed or taken, and so he undertakes a quest either for revenge or for the salvation of whoever was taken. Of course, if it is revenge, there is the danger of him turning to the Dark Side once more... :)

Vagabond
06-15-2001, 12:41 AM
The Wanderer, the idea about Kyle's child being taken with the intention of turning him to the dark side is very interesting. It falls within the tradition of Star Wars. Even Vader said that Obi-Wan was wise to hide Luke and Leia from him, the implied threat being that they would have been easy to turn to the dark side at an early age.

StormHammer, I agree, there must be a huge motivation for Kyle to risk turning himself to the dark side. His child being captured could easily do it. So would his devotion to any imperiled friends or loved ones.

Could it also be his sense of responsibility? Perhaps a past student of his has turned to the dark side, and now he reluctantly feels it is his duty to confront his fallen student and either bring him back to the light, or destroy him. It's a task that he despises, yet knows that he alone, as the student's master, must deal with it. If so, then who would the student be? Someone old? Someone new? Someone borrowed? Someone blue?

;)

The Wanderer
06-15-2001, 01:11 AM
ooooooh, I say someone blue, we haven't seen any blue star wars aliens in awhile.

in any case, I'm really not so picky on what the story to JO is, so long as it's told well and makes sence. all really that matters is the quality level.

GonkH8er
06-15-2001, 04:10 AM
yeah, perhaps this evil person has developed a machine that harnesses the force, but it has to be taken from young people, so he kidnaps kyle's kid/kids, and buggers off to hook them up to this de-juicing machine to suck their force :)

far fetched? you bet it is!

Vagabond
06-15-2001, 11:11 AM
What if Jan had been a Dark Jedi all along, right under Kyle's nose? Maybe all the previous material in the games was her attempt to currpt Kyle - she'd been working with Jeric and them threatening Jan was just a ploy? Probably not, but that idea has a bit of promise.

GonkH8er
06-15-2001, 11:21 AM
brings a new meaning to 'sleeping with the enemy'

Wilhuf
06-15-2001, 01:20 PM
Ok, so Thrawn hires Sarris to kidnap Kyle Jr. to suck the jedi juice out of him. HOW will they get a teen rating on THAT? Sounds a bit Wilhuf to me. ;)

Seriously though, I like the kidnapping idea. It's completely consistent with the whole 'turn to the dark side, family feud' Star Wars theme.

Now, Luke turns away from the Force because he doesn't want it to be a 'crutch,' or unfair advantage. So, perhaps Kyle has the same attitude. He simply settles down with his family for a quiet life on Sulon.

BTW another option is that Sarris kills Kyle's son. First Kyle loses his father, and now his son. The sorrow and the pity. So Kyle gets back on the revenge trail, and is ready to suck the life out of Sarris.

Or perhaps Kyle (played by Jason Priestly) has a son with Sarris (played by Barbara Streisand), and this of course angers Jan (Kyle's wife, played by Michelle Yeoh). So Jan kills Kyle Jr. (Adam Sandler) and Sarris gets medieval on Jan. Kyle simply watches the melee, shouting out 'REEEOWWR!! CAT FIGHT!!'

Azer Nik
06-15-2001, 02:26 PM
That's a bit to Wihufian for my tastes. BTW in the light side path in JK do they heavily imply that Yun died a light-side Jedi or not, I missed that cut-scene(stupid phone call). Then again who's to say that Yun died, so we have Yun(played by Chow Yun Fat) and the new Kyle(played by Jet Li)busting out fat moves against the villian of the piece the evil Wookie Dark Jedi Spewbacca who's holding Jan Ors(played by Michelle Yeoh)in his secret base on(insert Planet name here). So Yun and Kyle go off to rescue him.Better yet scratch the Wookie, the evil Jedi is played by Keanu Reeves who dresses in shirt,tie and long coat type deal.And don't forget that the Dark Jedi will be fast, insert shot of Yun and Kyle emptying the blasters at dark Jedi (start bullet time)who dodges with ease their blasts of energy(stop bullet time), oh yeah that's the ticket.

[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Prefect ]

Syndrix
06-15-2001, 02:41 PM
Ummm.... Nothing to see here.. move along.

[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ]

MaDMaN
06-16-2001, 06:00 AM
Kyle has a kid? Man I guess i should start reading the books again. Whos the mother? or is the kid just an idea? :eek:

Bartolo_JCS
06-16-2001, 07:11 AM
did i mention obi-wan will always be the greatest jedi to ever live?

The Wanderer
06-16-2001, 01:23 PM
the kid was just an idea :)

Vagabond
06-28-2001, 03:27 PM
I wonder if Jan is force-sensitive? Wouldn't it be cool if she was training at the Jedi Academy on Yavin IV? Jan and Kyle could be like Luke and Mara.

acdcfanbill
06-28-2001, 05:51 PM
if Jan was force sensitive, that would be too much, we have too many main char. force sensitive already, i mean, i though Kyle being a Jedi was a little over the top (but george is good for over the top stuff (not the Sly movie)) cause we have Mara, and Corrin Horn (the pilot from the x-wing novels), and umm, well, im sure there is more, but still, what are the chances that two friends are both force-sensitive. i though it was suppsoed to be a rare thing. well, anyway, thats my two or three cents...

Vagabond
06-28-2001, 06:14 PM
Ya, I tend to agree. I was just brain-storming about different possibile relationships between Kyle and Jan.

Oh, here's a new one. What if Jan were Kyle's daughter? He could conceivably be old enough to be her father. That would explain their love for each other.

In any event, Jan appears to be in her prime child-bearing years, so she's going to need to hook up with a man if she ever hopes to have offspring. Some interesting relationship dynamics could come into play here between Kyle and Jan, regardless of whether they are father/daughter, lovers, brother/sister, friends, etc.

[ June 28, 2001: Message edited by: Vagabond ]

wardz
06-28-2001, 06:28 PM
If Jan needs some help child bearing, I'll gladly step in. :D

I don't really want another bro and sis thing going though, thats just too much of a coincidence..

wardz

Vagabond
06-28-2001, 06:48 PM
Yes, I suppose the brother/sister thing would be a bit over-used for Star Wars, not unlike how both The Phantom Menace and Return of the Jedi ended with:

1. Goofy Aliens battling the bad-guy army on the planet below.

2. A space battle raging overhead.

3. A lightsaber duel between good-guys and bad-guys going on nearby.

But back to Jan, she will probably be wanting to have children soon, so I wonder who it will be, if anyone at all? Kyle would be the most logical candidate, but I think it would be more interesting if it were someone else. Kyle, regardless of how he views Jan, would feel some measure of jealousy. It's only natural. This could be very interesting, story-wise.

wardz
06-28-2001, 07:23 PM
Yeah, V

Yhat would be interesting if someone else did the biz with Jan and he got royally pissed off, but he couldn't do anything as it would jepordise their close friendship.

wardz

matt--
06-28-2001, 08:51 PM
She should get married to the villian. How's that for conflict!

Vagabond
06-28-2001, 10:52 PM
So, Jan would give birth to the future anti-Jedi, and potential threat to the Republic. Hmmmm....

[ June 29, 2001: Message edited by: Vagabond ]

The Wanderer
06-29-2001, 01:48 AM
Say, at E3 did they mention wether or not they had already hammered out most, some, or all of the plot yet???

Vagabond
06-29-2001, 11:18 AM
I believe the have a high-level idea of where the plot's going.

Mercenary_Turned_Jedi
06-29-2001, 11:21 AM
Say, seeing that this topic is partly about Jan, what happened to her at the end of JK
( remember, I sold my copy before the expansion came out and before I even finished it )?

:D

Kurgan
06-29-2001, 05:07 PM
Child-bearing? Bah, who needs it when you can make thousands of insane clones of yourself and rule the galaxy, bwahahahahaha!!!!!

Sorry, I think I was possessed by Dr. Doom for a second there. ; p

Kurgan

wardz
06-29-2001, 05:58 PM
There there kurgs, have you taken your medication today? *someone get the horse tranquilisers!* :)

wardz

Kurgan
06-29-2001, 06:27 PM
Thanks for the reminder, the world has stopped spinning and the flying pixies have all quieted down. ; )

Here's an idea, anybody seen Highlander: Endgame? I won't get into how much the movie rocked/sucked, but perhaps some of the plot in that movie could be adapted and might work better in JK2 than it did in that film.

How about the idea of the hero, afraid of his inner darkness, going to some sort of Sanctuary where Force sensitives go to "hide out" for awhile, from the Dark Side (or it could be a remnant safe-house for Jedi during the purges) to be lost in meditation (or drugged to "escape" from his demons). He'd be having fitful dreams, etc, and hallucinations, then wake up, because....

The evil Dark Jedi person discovers the secret Sanctuary with his posse of thugs/disciples, and starts killing the other Jedi there, leaving only Kyle left.

Why? Because this Jedi is angry with Kyle. Tie this in with Kyle's Imperial Days. How many people do you think Kyle hurt/killed while he was with the Empire? And when he switched sides, how many of his former colleuges/friends did he have to harm/kill?

Just pick somebody, a former classmate at the academy, roommate, teacher, former rival, etc. Or some innocent victim caught between. Someone who was later found to have force abilities.

Anyhow, so this guy is trying to dedicated himself to ruining Kyle's life, and so he wants to make him suffer.

Tie this in with trying to capture/kill Jan, Mara and Luke and whomever else he loves. Maybe tie in something with his father's death (like this guy took part in the mission or something). So the Dark Jedi has had an axe to grind for years... and what better reason to be evil than because he feels that Kyle ruined HIS life somehow?

Just another idea...

Kurgan

wardz
06-29-2001, 06:38 PM
going to some sort of Sanctuary where Force sensitives go to "hide out" for awhile

Like a jedi rehab type place?

I like that idea... It would be nice to see kyle become some sort of recluse, drunk and on the edge. Then he has some sort of incentive to come out of retirement (a la kurgan's idea), then he becomes new Kyle! He gets himself back into shape ready to kick some preverbial butt!

wardz

matt--
06-29-2001, 06:43 PM
The game should start with an assassination attempt on Kyle. He doesn't know why or who sent the opperative, but he knows his life is in danger, and so he begins his quest for knowledge and justice, finding on the way, how deep the villian's plan really is...a new threat to the galaxy.