reloading?

[Spaceball_One]

does anyone know if reloading is a factor put into the game?

personally, i hope so. i know this is somwhat of an oxymoron (since JEDI KNIGHT is a sci-fi fantasy game) but it would make the game more realistic... i play COUNTER-STRIKE and i really enjoy the reload feature (sure it sucks when someone catches you off guard then just whoots the **** out of you while you try to reload, but hey, agian... realism) since it makes gunning combat more skill-based (i think). i don't know, when i first heard that JEDI KNIGHT 2 was coming out i immediately got the urge to get on the ZONE and own some **** up... but, getting used to COUNTER-STRIKE and its form of gameplay, i found it kind of tacky that some people just run around like headless chickens shooting whatever they come across.

just think about it: reloading puts the advantage up in the air, so to speak. it provides balance in a gun fight. lets say that you and an opponent are squaring off, you have 30 bullets, he has 100. if there was reloading, you guys would both have to stop after you shell out 30... you of course would have no reserves, he would have to stop and reload. that gives YOU the time to go run over, draw your saber, and chop the **** out of him. however, if there WASN'T reloading, you would pretty much be screwed, seeing as he wouldn't stop firing till you were dead.

also, that would make you use the surroundings to your advantage in MP. boxes, walls, etc. you'd use for cover... OH AND ANOTHER THING: if reload was put into place, the TD would perhaps become more useful (it could be used as cover fire)

something id love to see if reload were put into play would be this: say the aforementioned scenario once again took place. but this time, instead of drawing the saber, you quickly took out your handgun... err, bryar pistol, and just hand-gunned the **** out of the schmuck who is reloading!!! (PLEASE EXCUSE THAT, ITS THE COUNTER-STRIKE TALKING)

thanks for your time. ONLY ONE MAN WOULD DARE GIVE ME THE RASPBERRY... LOOOOONESTAR!!!!!

[digl]

I think there nothing official on this yet
It could be good for gameplay in that situations, but Im not sure if realist (in the sw world), I doubt ST rifles need to be reloaded, maybe some weapons could need to be reloaded

[Bartolo_JCS]

hehehe, it'll be fun to take people like you out with the saber :syoda:

[Cmdr. Antilles]

Blaster rifles need new plaster packs. You never see it in the movie, but if you read the Rouge Squadron books, they always are swapping cartriges (of "blaster gas") in the middle of battles. I think that would be a cool feature too. But, I guess to be realistic in the SW universe, you'd only have to reload after every 100 shots or something...

[Kettch]

Leia reloaded her E-11 when she covered Luke in the Deathstar in EIV

I'm for reloading, be as canon as possible :)

It's good for tactics and brain-using, and I often play CS :fett:

[CaptainRAVE]

I remember discussing this after the game was first announced and after about 150 posts we still couldnt decide if this feature would be implemented, or even if it was appropriate. Its wasnt added into Elite Force though and didnt seem to make much difference to the gameplay. As of yet though we still *officially* dont know :(......this one interests me greatly though

[digl]

Lets hope KISS Army looks at this thread and maybe they answer this in the next FAQ update

[Vagabond]

I agree - reloading would be a nice feature.

[Keyan Farlander]

I could take it or leave it, but if it's done well, I think it could add to the game.

[StormHammer]

Yes, if it's done well, put it in. It can make some encounters a bit more challenging. However, it shouldn't intrude too much...you shouldn't be reloading that often because the capacity of the weapons should be quite high, I think. If it's not put in, I don't think it would bother me too much, though. ;)

[ed_silvergun]

How about a compromise? Just have an option in the controls menu to toggle auto reloading on or off. That would keep everyone happy.

[digl]

that could make everyone happy
And by voting the players in the server could change that option(and others)
Although Itd be confusing to play some times with reloading and others without it

[Dirth Vedar]

You can't give an option for reloading. Because the point of reload is to put a limitation on the player, giving the player a vulnerability for others to exploit. It's suppose to add depth to a firefight, but the fact is, you would only use the reload option if everyone else has to also, because it puts you in a disadvantage. So if you have a reload option, mp games will have to be separated into even more camps, so not only do you have the saber only, no force allowed, etc. You have to refine it down even more to whether reload is required. I think that's getting a little too nitpicky don't you think? Why don't we put in an option for whether you're allow to use various color of light sabers?
Personally, I am against reloading. Yes, it does add a little depth, but you need to look at it in the context of the game. In games like rainbow six, there's no question, because you use real weapons, with real rounds. And with weapons like those, each round counts, because you get hit once, you die. So reload becomes more important when factoring into strategy.
In Star Wars, your blasters are energy weapons, and they really shouldn't peter out after 20 rounds. But if your blaster holds like 80 to 100 rounds, and you can pretty much go through any firefight without havign to worry about reload, then what's the point. It's more annoying to have to worry about reloading before every confrontation, and reloading after spending 5 rounds, just to make sure you can unload your entire clip on the next encounter. It's truly, truly annoying. I admit, once you get use to it, it's not so bad, but I believe it's truly pointless. And if they do make blaster only with 30 round clips, I'd be incredibly pissed, to have to reload 3 times to get through a room of storm troopers. I think the way it is now in JK is just fine.
If anything, restrict the amount of ammo that can be picked up. Forcing players to aim better before shooting instead of just holding the fire button while running, and that'll help keep players from using nothing but concussion rifles and so on. I am all for making every shot count, but I am totally against having to introduce an artificial vulnerability just so players have to learn to deal with it.
I think if the saber fighting is as good as the previews say, i.e. simple to learn, hard to master, there'll be plenty of strategy to satisfy any duelist, without having to accomodate for having to reload.

[digl]

I agree
I mentioned that of the option just to make everyone play as they wish
But I also prefer the game without reloading
JK played fine without it

and a good force saberist didnt have much trouble killing a gunner, thers no real need for reloading

[Letalis]

I don't like comparing with CS, because CS and JK are complete different, and always will be.

However, reloading could be a significant feature, I'd prefer to not have it, i think it's more Star Warsy that way.

As for my comparison, some guy is covering a hall/passage with an awp, you come down it, he shoots, misses, you have time, whilst he reloads, or cocks the next shell, to find cover or belt him one. I know it's only a single scenario, but it's a frequent one.

Having said that, neither Terrorist nor Counter-Terrorist can use the Force now, can they?

I say scrap reloading, let CS be CS, and JK, JK. :)

[DeathBoLT]

Forcing players to aim better before shooting instead of just holding the fire button while running, and that'll help keep players from using nothing but concussion rifles and so on.

Dirth Vedar, if thats how you think JK mp games are won, you probably haven't won many of them. ;)

When you're playing any good gunner who has strong aim, you have to make sure every shot counts or your dead.
:)

[ed_silvergun]

Originally posted by Dirth Vedar
You can't give an option for reloading. Because the point of reload is to put a limitation on the player, giving the player a vulnerability for others to exploit. It's suppose to add depth to a firefight, but the fact is, you would only use the reload option if everyone else has to also, because it puts you in a disadvantage. So if you have a reload option, mp games will have to be separated into even more camps, so not only do you have the saber only, no force allowed, etc. You have to refine it down even more to whether reload is required. I think that's getting a little too nitpicky don't you think? Why don't we put in an option for whether you're allow to use various color of light sabers?

You raise some very good points, and most of that I agree with. But then again, part of me still says that it's all about options. After all, Counter-Strike had options like friendly fire on/off and Quake engine games tend to be highly modifiable anyway, with the ability to toggle weapons stay and what not to alter the balance of the game.

I agree that an option for reloading might be a bit much for MP, but it could certainly be something you could toggle on/off in SP. Remember that SP and MP are quite different games and need to be balanced in different ways. If Elite Force is anything to go by, we could well see two games run from different .exe files with quite different weapons balancing etc.

I'm not really convinced either way at the moment, but I do believe it's something worth thinking about, as it can have a significant effect on the gameplay dynamics.

[digl]

Originally posted by ed_silvergun
If Elite Force is anything to go by, we could well see two games run from different .exe files with quite different weapons balancing etc.


I downloaded the demo the other day and noticed this
why two exes?

[OnlyOneCanoli]

One for multiplayer and one for single. Same with RTCW.

I think reloading would be a welcome change, for me at least. I really don't want a JK clone, here. One way of implementing it would be for the high-power weapons to need reloading. A concussion rifle, for example, would hold 5-10 round clips, making the user reload frequently. Or having to reload the rail gun after every shot, and make the rails go faster to even it out. Perhaps make the repeater have 50 round clips.

I'm all for change, if it's done well.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by OnlyOneCanoli
One way of implementing it would be for the high-power weapons to need reloading. A concussion rifle, for example, would hold 5-10 round clips, making the user reload frequently. Or having to reload the rail gun after every shot, and make the rails go faster to even it out. Perhaps make the repeater have 50 round clips.

That sounds very reasonable to me. I mentioned something about limiting the fire of the conc. a long time ago, I think. Anyway, I agree that fast-repeating weapons and heavy weapons should require reloads just to even things out a little.

Of course, as digl said, it should remain an option that can be switched on and off, particularly for MP.

[digl]

One for multiplayer and one for single
I know that Canoli, Im asking why it is this way
Maybe in RtCW because they were developed by two different companies, but why EF has two exes?

Reloading for the conc and rail sounds very good

[OnlyOneCanoli]

Oh... not sure about the exact reason for it. I know MP has a few different options than SP. And some people may want a lower resolution or something if they are afraid of lagging out. But still, I don't see a need for two exe's. Maybe one of our tech guys here knows.

[StormHammer]

Perhaps they did it that way to stop a load of SP baggage being loaded into memory, to optimise the speed. I guess someone from Raven would have to answer that question. :confused:

[Ryo Ohki]

Originally posted by StormHammer
Perhaps they did it that way to stop a load of SP baggage being loaded into memory, to optimise the speed. I guess someone from Raven would have to answer that question. :confused:

IIRC

SP needs extra stuff for all the Scripting of NPC's & I think the Models were slightly different as MP didn't need all the scripted actions for the NPC's or as many animations. (very likely wrong as my memory ain't that good)

I shall now try and sumon one who should know ;)
"Scotch"
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"SCOTCH"
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"SCOTCH is a girls drink !"
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Damn it's Sunday MRJ might turn up though you never know :p


p.s. I'm kidding about Girls drink bit :)

[ed_silvergun]

It was basically because the weapons and items were balanced differently in SP and MP, I think.

[MRJ]

In EF we did indeed use two .exe files because BOTH SP and MP had loads of stuff the other didn't need, including different menu systems (courtesy of Bob Love the Menu King). I can't comment now on what JK2 will use, I am too busy drinking scotch... :p

[Ryo Ohki]

Originally posted by MRJ
I am too busy drinking scotch... :p

:D

[KordKelly]

Originally posted by MRJ
I am too busy drinking scotch... :p

So...what else is new???
:D

[StormHammer]

Thanks for the feedback, MRJ. :)

Going by that, I would suspect it might be likely we'll see a similar thing with JK2. Anything that helps to optimise both parts of the game gets my vote, anyway. ;)

[digl]

Thanks for answering that MRJ
As StormHammer says if it optimizes the game It gets my vote too

[MRJ]

*sigh* ya know posting on a forum is like Brian (from Life of Brian) trying to preach to the masses- no matter what he said, they heard what they wanted -"Follow the shoe!" "No, follow the gourd!" Maybe I should go into politics, the spin there is just as bad and I seem used to it now.

"can't comment" means just that- no more and no less. I know you hate that, I hate that, my mother hates that, but that's the way it is. :p

[StormHammer]

We know you can't comment MRJ. We're just speculating. :)

[StephenG]

Originally posted by StormHammer
We know you can't comment MRJ. We're just speculating. :)

ah, theres nothing like a bit of speculating

[wardz]

hes not a raven developer hes a very naughty boy!


wardz

[MRJ]

"I'm a Raven Developer and so's my wife!" [*there, that oughta distract 'em for a while...*]

[Agen]

..."ve have way ofth making u tock" \- /-
_/_\ <--- pittifull attempt of making that sign.. *sigh*

[X-Vector]

Originally posted by MRJ
*sigh* ya know posting on a forum is like Brian (from Life of Brian) trying to preach to the masses- no matter what he said, they heard what they wanted


Hey, don't you go feeling sorry for yourself, just be glad you're not working at 3DR as it would be ten times worse. ;)
Seriously though, people will always want to interpret developer's comments in a certain manner to make it conform to the way they think the game should be done.
It's wishful thinking in a sense, call it 'coloured interpretation' if you will.

As for the "dual exes" issue, I am in favour of such an approach because it allows me to finetune my settings according to the differing nature of the single- and multplayer games.
In the SP mode I want to turn up the available graphics and sound options as far as possible to allow for the optimum of immersion, while on the other hand visual and aural representation take a back seat in MP where (maximum) framerate is life to a certain extent.
It rarely happens that I want to switch from SP to MP and vice versa and even if I *do* feel so inclined, it should only take a short moment to exit the game and activate the alternative executable.

[Keyan Farlander]

Seriously! "'can't comment' means just that- no more and no less. I know you hate that, I hate that, my mother hates that, but that's the way it is." sounds like something Joe Siegler would say. I almost thought I was on the 3DR forums for a second ;)

[X-Vector]

So did I.

[Agen]

What!!! This isn't the 3DR forums!!!!??? AHHHHH!!!!!

[X-Vector]

No, these forums are actually up for business.

Grumble, grumble...

[Morpheus4873]

I am strongly for reloading. It just ads depth and stops mindless shooting.

In Elite Force people just ran around pointing and shooting. The only strategy was that the better weapon wins. If you just run around into line of fire (and everybody did that) then you just die and you respawn and repeat again. That was preety much it and that is the reason that I only played multiplayer for one week.

Now try running into a line of fire with guns blazin in Counter Strike. You will be nailed 10 times before you even hit the ground. Why ? Because people use strategy. They know that they need to fire in controlled bursts and thus conserving ammo and hiding behind crates and finding other cover. Its more realistic - not because the weapons are realistic - but because that's what you would have done in real life. Take cover, fire controlled bursts - not run around like a meniac.....


My $00.02

[Spaceball_One]

thanks for agreeing with me, morpheus... i am truly FOR reloading and i hope that RAVEN can see that it really is something good!

i think it will add so much depth to OUTCAST. mindless shooting is really annoying, and its true, whoever would have the strongest weapon would win hands down, no questions asked, without any strategy whatsoever... thats what JEDI KNIGHT gunning was all about (stupid concussion rifles) i mean sure, i guess you could say some skill was invloved, but when you look at it, that little amount of skill couldn't fill one of those "peter pan kiss" things (sorry i forget what the hell those are called). with reloading, i think that weapons also become balanced, which is something that everyone definately wants! no more "ooh ill win if i get to the concussion rifle first" type of stuff, you know!?

reloading would not only add depth to multiplayer scenarios, but single player scenarios as well! the AI would function a lot more efficiently i believe if they didn't just see you and shoot... they'd conserve their ammo and use it more efficiently against you, and maybe also try to use their surroundings to their advantage reloading would really change the way that they attack, and i think that you can't go wrong with that!

please don't think i keep wanting aspects of COUNTER-STRIKE implemented into OUTCAST because you think i am just another schmuck obsessed with CS... the fact is that im not, i just see it as the best game out there that balances FPS with actual strategy and tactics with a great result: an addicting game that is VERY enjoyable... its not just another run of the mill shoot em up that you get over very quickly. games where you run around shooting mindlessly tend to get very boring quickly, even in multiplayer. and thats what i want OUTCAST to be: i want to keep playing this game for a long time.

[Emon1]

Well, as nice as it would be, it's not going to really hurt your gameplay. Think about it... the BlasTech E-11 holds 100 rounds, making reloading very rare. But think about it... The gameplay modes will be something like this (I would guess):

-DeathMatch
-Team DeathMatch
-Capture the Flag
-Sabers DM
-Assault / King of the Hill or another game type?

You'll probably also be able to add force to each type, just like you can in JK. Since I haven't seen any really innovative game types other than saber combat (not innovative, but VERY rare), I'm guessing they are putting lots of balance into force powers, especially for the Saber DM.

Now think about it. Every mode I brought up is DM based, meaning the players respawn. Think about games with reloads... Rainbow Six series / Ghost Recon..those are slow paced games where there's a lot of camping and reloading needs to be in there. Now RtCW, where there are reloads, is a cross between DM and Rainbow Six squad based gameplay, and the reloads are automatic and very fast, and hardly affect gameplay.

Bottom line: Reloads should be like in RtCW if at all. Fast, automatic, done before you know it. Something that won't interupt the gameplay but makes it more true to the Star Wars Universe.

[/rant]

:)