no automapping

[Dirth Vedar]

3.08 Gameplay Will Jedi Outcast have an auto-map feature like the original Jedi Knight?
Jedi Outcast will not have an auto-map feature. The dynamic nature of auto-mapping is not intrinsically a feature of the game engine and the design of the game is such that the need for an auto-map feature was determined to be minimal.

------------

hmm... the design of the game is such that the need for auto-map is minimal, does that mean the SP player levels will be largely linear. Sounds like you won't be able to stray too much. Or maybe there's big exit signs, and go this way signs all over the place.

[Agen]

er no............ i think they just mean it isn't part of the engine and they can't be bothered putting it in. just because there's no map doesn't mean it's linear

[SlowbieOne]

I never even bothered with the map. What fun is a game, if you know where you are going?

Glad to hear we will be completing the game the old-fashoined way, by looking.:)

[StephenG]

Originally posted by SlowbieOne
I never even bothered with the map. What fun is a game, if you know where you are going?
Glad to hear we will be completing the game the old-fashoined way, by looking.:)

i was about to say that...We must move forwards not backwards or forward but sidewards?

[digl]

I would have prefered having the automap feature
specially for mp
I guess well have to get used to play without it

[StormHammer]

Not having an automap is not necessarily a bad thing...unless they put nothing in it's place. Take Force Seeing, for example...it hasn't even been mentioned as one of the returning Force powers. Is it now likely that power will not feature in the game at all? If that is the case, it is going to have a major effect on how MP is played, if nothing else. I understand a lot of hardcore players use Seeing in tandem with automap not only to discover the proximity of opponents, but also the locations of their team-mates, etc.

If these features are simply absent from the game, then some of the things that made JK different in terms of gameplay could potentially be lost...and it runs the risk of becoming simply a standard FPS. Although it's still early days, it does sound as if JKII's MP mode is going to conform much more to Q3's, and that is not necessarily a good thing. :(

[Vagabond]

I think you hit the nail right on the head, StormHammer. Although I expect JKII to look beautiful, some of the things I've been discovering is making the game seem to be the successor to JK only in name. It's almost as if the developers have not actually played the original Jedi Knight and Mysteries of the Sith add-on, otherwise many of these issues would be self-apparent. One can not write a sequel to a book, without first having read the original.

Hopefully our concernes will prove to be unfounded.

[Dirth Vedar]

though I don't mind not having automap, it's the following statement which troubles me:

"the design of the game is such that the need for an auto-map feature was determined to be minimal."

What does that mean? the design of the game is such so that automap is not needed??

Does that mean there'll be no way for a player to get lost in a level? If so, how are they going to pull this off? Making the level linear, you go from point A to point B, or what? How complex can the levels be (not how long, but how complex), if automapping is not needed to figure out where you are?
I may be reading a little too much into what the FAQ is saying, but it still troubles me. I am hoping that the levels will be a little more open with different areas to explore. Even if it means getting lost without the automap.

[Morpheus4873]

I hated automap. I also hated getting lost in the levels so I had to use the damn thing.

I am not saying that the levels should be very linear, but a bit more linear than the JK ones.

If I want to play a game where I have to find my way out of the level then I will buy myself a maze game. I want to enjoy gameplay, interaction with characters/enemies and goals - not endlesly search for a hidden door in a huge level.


My 2 cents
Morph :trooper:

[Ushgarak]

Most FPS games get on fine without automaps these days, don;t they?

I shouldn't read TOO much into their statement (Raven rarely give it straight, but that doesn't mean it's ALWAYS bad news). I think they just meant that the game plays fine without the map, so they have designed it without people using a map in mind- so why bother putting it in?

[sanpilou]

i don't really mind for a minimap.........on half-life there is no mini-map and the levels aren't at all linear and it was more realistic like that......

[digl]

Morpheus or sanpilou have you played JK multiplayer? that was when the automap was useful
I agree with StormHammer
I dont want a JK clone with good graphics, but I prefer that to a completly different games, that plays just like any FPS but you can throw lightning and grip people

[Lucky]

automap was used in ff games to see a ton of things.

Where yer opponents were, what they were shooting, how fast the projectile was moving at you, when items respawned, what items yer opponent had gotten, where yer teammates were, what they were doing etc.

You could watch an entired ff game with seeing, sitting in the corner looking at a wall but totally aware of what was going on. Seeing was the closest thing to "the force" that was in JK, gonna be ridiculous if they don't have it. They'd better have somthin better.

Biggest part of the force was a greater awareness of what was going on around you, not the goofy lightning and choking. They'd better have a damn good replacement for that element of the force or im going to cry.


Lucky

[digl]

So we created sets of light side, dark side and neutral powers, which included adding some brand new powers over the single player game as well as resurrecting some classic ones
Thats from Knotes 3
What a nice read, more powers besides the few already annouced
One of those new powers could be seeing, maybe implemented in a completly different way that it was in JK, because of the lack of the automap

[Vagabond]

Well, I agree with the sentiment that Force See in combination with the so-called automap was one of the primary differences that set Jedi Knight: MotS apart from a typical first-person-shooter. When used together, one could view all beings in the map.

I do not exagerate when I say that I used this power over 90% of the time, and not having this ability in JKII will be a huge disappointment for veteran players. Having said that, I imagine that it could still be possible for Raven to have implemented Force See without an automap, but I don't know how. Kyle already had this ability in previous games, so it won't make sense for him to have lost this very basic and useful power inn JKII.

Again, I hope this deep concern proves to be unfounded.

[Bartolo_JCS]

wolf2 didn't have automap, neither does quake III i think? might have something to do with the engine maybe? talk about linear, the entire idea of an automap is linear... its a blueprint of the map...

The maps in wolf2 have distinct features in each area, ie. colored lighting, sounds, dead bodies, skulls, so you can recognize where you're going and where've you been. Obviously this will be a techniqe added into jk2 therefore no more autmapping.

3 cheers for no automap!

Hip hip!

[digl]

Thats exactly what it says in the FAQ Bartolo

The dynamic nature of auto-mapping is not intrinsically a feature of the game engine

[Bartolo_JCS]

I just thought i'd say that cuz i know people that are bummed out about that, I don't understand why..

[digl]

Originally posted by Bartolo_JCS
I just thought i'd say that cuz i know people that are bummed out about that, I don't understand why..
sorry but I dont know what the hell that means :o

maybe I didnt understand you other post
nevermind...

[Bartolo_JCS]

estan tristes por no tener automap

[digl]

ok gracias ;)

[Vagabond]

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. However, I am not pleased with the apparent omission of the automap in JKII. No, not because I want the normal, traditional automap from the days of Doom. Hardly. As I've reiterated several times previously, I only want the automap for the sole purpose of using Force See as experienced so masterfully in Jedi Knight: MotS. The distinction should be clear to anyone who has played JK/MotS.

[Redwing]

Four star Force sight plus automap in JK/MotS made you the master of your surroundings. You could see everything; item locations, enemies, even projectiles...it's pretty awesome. I hope JKII will be able to make up for that.

[Wilhuf]

It is confirmed in the FAQ there will be no overhead map.

... Reminds of the good old days gone by... many first person shooters had an automap feature. JK/MotS, the doom series, Outlaws, Heretic, etc.

The overhead map will be missed.

[digl]

huh?you replied to me Vag? :confused:
I said that I wanted automap

[Bartolo_JCS]

to me, I think :syoda:

[digl]

now it makes more sense :)

[Bartolo_JCS]

hello Wilhuf! welcome back! :syoda:

[StephenG]

Originally posted by Wilhuf
It is confirmed in the FAQ there will be no overhead map.

... Reminds of the good old days gone by... many first person shooters had an automap feature. JK/MotS, the doom series, Outlaws, Heretic, etc.

The overhead map will be missed.

before, before! quite living in the past man, your living in the past!

[Vagabond]

Sorry, digl, I was referring to Bartolo_JCS.

StephenG, one does not discard good ideas from the past simply because they are not new. Otherwise one might consider not walking upright any longer, as that's so yesterday, and start scooting around on one's belly. Suit yourself if change is your goal. But if your aim is to keep alive the successful concepts of the past, then one would be wise to not be so dismissive of history.

[StephenG]

Originally posted by Vagabond
Sorry, digl, I was referring to Bartolo_JCS.

StephenG, one does not discard good ideas from the past simply because they are not new. Otherwise one might consider not walking upright any longer, as that's so yesterday, and start scooting around on one's belly. Suit yourself if change is your goal. But if your aim is to keep alive the successful concepts of the past, then one would be wise to not be so dismissive of history.

it was a joke. i got it from the Simpsons. you know the part when beer is no longer allowed and homer starts making his own beer.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

OMG GAY! No automap is bad news. Yes it was kinda pointless in SP but it was in reality the most useful power in FF MP. Without it, JK2 is looking more like Q3 with a lightsaber. Seeing+map, force powers (not the useless newbie ones), and map design (BGJ and Oasis, not the newbie ones) made JK differant then any other FPS, so much more...

This kinda dashes my hopes that it'll be worth playing MP, I already own Quake 3. At least Unreal2 will be out at about the same time.

[DeathBoLT]

map design (BGJ and Oasis, not the newbie ones)

newbie ones translation=
any closed maps that inhibit speed/jump use.

:p

[thrEEpaGe]

im going to miss the overhead map a lot, but in that interview it said that the game would not benefit very much from an overhead map, so im still interested in seeing what they have up their sleeves.....hmm.....i dont think it will be QUITE like q3 w/ sabers....hehe...there ARE force powers after all ;-)......actually i really want jk2 to succeed, but going up against a new (well updated, since unreal engine is simply unreal engine) U2 engine won't exactly help lucasarts recent less than stirling record at putting out decent games (force commander, racer, etc...) these games didnt exactly sell well....lets hope jk2 breaks this record...

(and if it doesnt, im gonna be a U2 crazy fool!) hehe

[bsbuckeye21]

Think about it: if you were a jedi, would you "force see" by somehow getting a bird's eye view? I think it'd work rather nicely if they had silhouette of the enemy that could be visible through walls. (Sorta like the monitor on the rocket launcher in Red Faction) .

The more I get to think about it, we should have never seen a top-down map in an FPS in the first place. We aren't sailing some ship and checking our bearings with a map. We're exploring uncharted territory (in most cases). However, I'll admit that the map was handled very nicely in DF, in that it logged where you were (but not the whole map already) with some PDA mechanism which actually makes sense and fits in with the universe. Besides, I'm not "spacial reasoning"-challenged, or have Alzheimer’s, so getting around is no problem and downright enjoyable. (And therefore I do not whine. :cool:) [Wups, I bet that last comment will stir things up...]

And lastly, by Raven not having to implement an automap only cuts down on dev time! ;)

[DeathBoLT]

Think about it: if you were a jedi, would you "force see" by somehow getting a bird's eye view? I think it'd work rather nicely if they had silhouette of the enemy that could be visible through walls. (Sorta like the monitor on the rocket launcher in Red Faction)

well the radar effect seems like it would be more useful than simply seeing through a set of walls...

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Ok this is gonna sound newbie, and I hate to use this type of argument but since I think It'll work....

A jedi should be able to use the force in some way to be more aware of his environment. That is just what seeing + map does. If you want to talk about being true to the movies I'm sure we can find plenty of scenes that go along with this...

- "Do no trust your eyes"
- "Trust your feelings"
- Remember when Luke in EP4 block like 4 laser blasts from the remote while blinded by the helmet?
- Vader Knew that Obi-wan was on the death star because he felt him
- Vader knew Luke was on the shuttle to endor
- Luke knew what ship vader was on
- Leia Knew Luke out off the 2nd Death star before it exploded

... I'm sure there are more....

It's just like hitting some one by the rails @ oasis from across the map with conc/destruct spash damage even though you're on the other side of the wall and you cant see them. With map/seeing you know they're there.

Force seeing + map was the perfect in bringing this into the game. The force should be more then just throwing lighting or moving faster. Without this JK2 becomes a Quake 3 mod where basicaly everyone having a lighting gun (ala Force lighting), moves faster and jumps higher, and has a good melee weapon. *YAWN* I might as well play UT/U2 with the speed turned up and gravity off.

I could at least live with a map being set off to the side or in a corner and still have the affects of JK seeing but I doubt that's gonna be an out of the box feature. Having the map in the middle of the screen so I could focus on map and look at what was happeing in the normal view without moving my eyes was beautiful though.

Hopefully they'll add this in a patch, because I'd perfer it to be official rather then a 3rd party mod. Some one will prolly code it if Raven won't though.
-

[ed_silvergun]

I don't think that the only way to implement the Jedi's "sixth sense" as it were is to have an automap feature. Think about it. Jedi aren't able to know the precise location of objects or people behind walls/in other rooms etc. Rather, a Jedi can sense the presence of an approaching being or object.

The automap was, in this respect, too cold and scientific for me. I would prefer a more organic approach to the Jedi's extra-sensory perception. Perhaps, as Kyle's connection with the Force grows throughout the single-player game, he could develop the ability to sense the approach of other beings.

This could be done, for example, by the use of a small icon in the top right-hand corner of the screen. A small flashing sillhouette of a person would indicate the approach of a being. It could flash slowly when they are some distance away, getting faster as they come nearer. It could flash red for an enemy, yellow for neutral, and green for an ally. Two such icons could indicate multiple beings in close proximity.

In addition, there could be slightly different icons to indicate a) a humanoid (eg. human, Gran, Rodian) presence, b) a creature (eg. Kell dragon/Rancor) presence and c) a droid presence.

As long as the icon was small and unobtrusive, so that you were barely aware of it most of the time, and you had the option to turn it off if you so wished, I think that this would be a very good way of implementing a truly Jedi-like connection to the Force without the need for an automap feature.

[digl]

Both of you have good arguments
what you describe ed is what was talked some days ago about a "danger sense"
In the movies they dont know exactly where the people is, however, when Luke blocks the remote bolts he knows exactly where he must block, so Im not sure what would be the best way to interpret that "sixth sense" in the game
We are all used to JK map+seeing, but If they are decided not to do it, they must do something that replaces it

[Wilhuf]

The automap was fun to use. But it also made the game much easier to play.

Which is easier? Always knowing where your opponent is and never being vulnerable to ambush? Or having to hunt for targets without a map, and always being vulnerable to ambush?

It takes more skill to navigate without a map than with an all-seeing map. It takes awareness and wit to use cues such as sounds and the absence of powerups to find your targets.

The 'newbie' would (and has) argue in favor of the overhead map since it is a crutch he can use to help him find his targets. The 'elite' would say that no overhead map is necessary since he is very familiar with, aware of, and responsive to his environment.

:holosid:

[bsbuckeye21]

Originally posted by [eVe]DeathBoLT
well the radar effect seems like it would be more useful than simply seeing through a set of walls...

The jedi do not come with a radar - that's my point.

This could be done, for example, by the use of a small icon in the top right-hand corner of the screen. A small flashing sillhouette of a person would indicate the approach of a being. It could flash slowly when they are some distance away, getting faster as they come nearer. It could flash red for an enemy, yellow for neutral, and green for an ally. Two such icons could indicate multiple beings in close proximity.

Good ideas here, Ed. If we mushed my little idea in here, we could see the sillhouette of the object (just the sillhouette through cel shading tech) through the walls with a solid color indicating whether it's friend or foe.

[DeathBoLT]

maybe this warning sense would indicate which direction they're coming from, indicate how far away they are and maybe even identify them(ie gran, etc.)

[jesseg88]

I liked how in Elite Force there would be maps on the display screens on the wall.

[digl]

that could be used in sp, but it would be useless in mp, and thats when the map is needed, unless there is some kind of danger sense

[Lord_FinnSon]

C'mon people, you are talking like not having automap in JK2 is end of the world! I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here, because if this makes some of you to choose Unreal 2 over JK2, that just means that in the end it doesn't matter, how much work Raven people have done getting things like lightsaber and Force powers to work and really shine. You must take what you get and like it was said before, even some of the newer games doesn't have automap feature and navigating through their levels isn't too complicated... ;) I do, however like that danger sense, but it needs more developing and might be a little bit problematic, when there are a lot enemies coming your way: colourful icons here and there all over screen.

[Vagabond]

Wilhuf:

Which is easier? Always knowing where your opponent is and never being vulnerable to ambush? Or having to hunt for targets without a map, and always being vulnerable to ambush?


Were a Jedi a typical FPS Red Shirt (TM), I'd agree with you. But a Jedi is supposed to be able to know where an opponent is; is supposed to be aware of one's surroundings; is supposed to be very difficult to ambush. Note, that I said very difficult to ambush a Jedi, not impossible, but I digress.

The point is that if JKII is to be a true sequel to Jedi Knight, then most veteran JK gamers are going to expect most, if not all, of the signature features to reappear in JKII.

This should not be confused with prettying up the original Jedi Knight, then then calling it a sequel. No, the core functionality - and what that is can be debatable - needs to be migrated to JKII, and then the gameplay expanded, not contracted.

It's a big gamble when beloved gameplay features are missing from a sequel. Hopefully Lady Luck will smile on Raven.

[StephenG]

Originally posted by Vagabond
Wilhuf:
Were a Jedi a typical FPS Red Shirt (TM), I'd agree with you. But a Jedi is supposed to be able to know where an opponent is; is supposed to be aware of one's surroundings; is supposed to be very difficult to ambush. Note, that I said very difficult to ambush a Jedi, not impossible, but I digress.


yeah ok, jedi are supposed to know where everything is BUT what fun is that? it wouldn't be fun knowing were the bad guys are all the time...i'd get really bored...i thing it would be like aim-botting in CS. You have to remember this is a game and you have to think about gameplay...i want to explore, find things, be scared, being ambushed etc.

Originally posted by Lord_FinnSon
C'mon people, you are talking like not having automap in JK2 is end of the world! I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here,

Totally agree. no automap isn't gonna reck this game.


even some of the newer games doesn't have automap feature and navigating through their levels isn't too complicated... ;) I do, however like that danger sense, but it needs more developing and might be a little bit problematic, when there are a lot enemies coming your way: colourful icons here and there all over screen.

i'm about 80% sure that most of the levels will be half-life/Elite Force-ish type levels. never needed an automap for those games and i dont think JO will need one either

edit: i had to fix some errors. cant spell for crackers!

[Vagabond]

StephenG,


yeah ok, jedi are supposed to know where everything is BUT what fun is that?


If you'd ever played the original JK/MotS, then you'd already know the answer. For me, it was quite fun. And while I could go into various ways of balancing one's ability to view others and conceal one's presense, the discussion would be academic since I can only conceive of these powers being implemented with some manner of overhead map. Is there another way? Probably, but I can't think of another scheme that would work as the JK-method. Like the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And let me reieterate one more time - listen up; the reason for wanting an overhead map is not because any of us feel like we'd get lost in the map. You're not the only ones whose 3D-navigational abilities become honed by playing FPS games. Rather, the need for the map is to provide the backdrop upon which the location of other life forces appear. I would ask people to reread the preceeding sentence several times before considering making statements equivalent to, "But game X doesn't need a map, so JKII won't either". The needs of other games are not a valid basis for determining what the needs of JKII are. Using JK/MotS as a basis, on the other hand, is a much more valid starting point.

And in the end, perhaps the reason there is no overhead map is becaause there is no longer any Force See power. This possibility would be very difficult to reconcile with both the previous games, and the movies.

[ed_silvergun]

I disagree. My objections are based not on the fact that you don't really need a method of finding your way round the levels, but on the fact that I, personally, don't believe the automap is entirely consistent with the way Jedi sense other beings and/or items. It isn't supposed to be a "second sight", and the Jedi are not supposed to be all-powerful.

In official Star Wars canon, we are led to believe that, whilst Jedi can sense their surroundings, other beings, etc. in a general way, this does not amount to an omniscience which allows them to perceive the very nature of their surroundings and the exact placement of objects and beings.

In short, Jedi can sense the presence of a being. That is not to say they know exactly where and what it is. This is why I suggested some sort of "danger sense" which would reflect this (see my above post).

I agree absolutely with you, Vagabond that the game in some way needs to reflect the Jedi's extrasensory abilities. What I disagree with is your opinion that automap is the only, or indeed the best way to go about this.

[Agen]

I had an idea a while ago.... actually i wrote it out but i forgot to press post because i had to go to the shops. what about a sense where colours come up and fade quickly when u come near a player. and then u can confirm to the computer u know they're there.therefore knowing they're there but not exactly. mayeb they can give htme specific colours or dark jedi get red and lgiht get green or something but something liek that anyway.

[Vagabond]

ed_silvergun, I disagree with your assessment of the abilities of Jedi perception.

For instance, I just finished watching The Phantom Menace on DVD. Recall the scene where the Jedi Council is testing young Anakin by having him name the shapes that appear on a hidden monitor. The young and untrained boy names every image correctly. If a person who is in tune with the Force can specifically identify electronic images, than locating life forces would be similar, if not easier, in difficulty.

Further, recall in Return of the Jedi when Luke dreads that he's endangered the mission because "Vader is on that ship".

Or how about in The Empire Strikes Back, when Luke, hanging from the bottom of Cloud City, calls out to Leia, and she leads Chewie to rescue Luke.

And then there is the scene from A New Hope, when Vader first announces that he senses the presence of his old master, and later pre-positions himself between Obi-Wan and the Falcon.

I could go on, but I think the point has been made. No, I disagree, ed_silvergun. The preponderance of film evidence demonstrates that a Jedi can use the Force to specify the exact location of life forces. Similarly, the movies also demonstrate how, with effort, one can cloak oneself from detection.

Again, I feel that the Force See technique implemented in Jedi Knight & Mysteries of the Sith was superb, and if a similar ability is to be made available in JKII, then it should work at least as well as JK/MotS. Right now I'm having a difficult time envisioning a new Force See method that will work as smooth and seemlessly as that one used in JK/MotS.

[Dirth Vedar]

well, I don't see why force see must be on the map, what if it's just like a radar, like tie fighter or other space shooter, where you have a mini radar thing on the corner of the screen that shows the relative positions of everything. It's probably not as informative as the map, but I think it'll be a nice compromise. Besides, everyone should have the map memorized right??

[digl]

Jedi can even know what people thinks sometimes
Remember Vader "escape is not his plan, I must face him...alone" He knows what OW wants to happen

But they cant do this always, they dont even always sense other Jedi, OW and Qui-gon are both times surprised by maul, they dont sense where he is and what he will do. Maybe some kind of cloak power could be in the game(if some sort of seeing or danger sense is in) so that you could not be detected for a short period of time

[bsbuckeye21]

I've made a mock-up of what I'm talking about in Photoshop. I would post it, but Brinkster's not working for me! Email me if you can host it for me. Thanks.

bradsinger@hotmail.com

[Vagabond]

Dirth, please re-read my previous post where I reiterated that the reason for the map is not because anyone is concerned about getting lost in the map.

digl, yes, like I said previously, there does appear to be the ability to cloak oneself from the Force, notably those using the Dark Side. I would expect a Jedi could do this as well, but it seems to be a technique employed by both Darth Sidious and Darth Maul in The Phantom Menace.

In any event, it is my belief that a Force See power that allows the user to specify the exact location of individuals has been established in the movies. Further, I believe that a Force See power should be in JKII, and it should work at least as well and unobtrusive as the one from Jedi Knight / Mysteries of the Sith.

[StormHammer]

I have to agree with you, Vagabond. I can't really see a more effective way of sensing where people are going to be other than Force See, whether it's in tandem with an automap (that we now know will not be in the game), or by seeing some kind of life energy through walls (a bit like infra-red, maybe).

I think the radar idea that has been mentioned might work as a last resort, though. I imagine it would not give the actual structure through which you are walking/running, but it could identify the location of life energy. I suppose it would work in a similar fashion to the device used in AvP, but without the beeps. Of course, such a system could never be as effective as Force See with the automap... The problem is that a visual radar should not be too intrusive on the screen when activated.

Again, all I can say is that if there is no Force See at all, the game mechanics are simply going to fall in line with most other FPS games on the market...which would be a step backward, IMHO. One of the major elements that set JK/MotS apart from the generic FPS was it's sheer range and type of Force abilities. Limiting those abilities would limit choice, and drastically redefine how the game must be played.

Of course, we are not yet aware of the full range of features the game will contain, but as more information is released, it is becoming apparent that JKII is going to be a different kind of game to it's predecessor. Whether this is a good or bad thing can only be decided by playing a demo...so it becomes ever more important for that demo to allow you access to most of the functionality of the game in order to make an informed judgement.

[bsbuckeye21]

This is what I'm thinking it should look like:

http://www.storm.hammer.btinternet.co.uk/fs_ex.jpg

A stormie behind the back door is now apparent. An example of how this'd work when half of an enemy is in view and the other half isn't is demonstrated on the stormie on the right hand side doorway. Nifty, eh? :D

Raven, in the slight chance that you like this idea and you'd use it, you have full permission by me to use it without any compensation. (But a free copy of JK2 wouldn't be bad. ;))

(Ok, toning down ego now...)

And a big thanks goes out to StormHammer for hosting the image! :) (Brinkster tech support still hasn't gotten back. :mad: )

[wardz]

I like that! I've been lurking but I had to post :)

Thats a good idea, It'd be good for MP too, in CS its always well difficult to see who is on whos side. So If it has no glow then its a friend, but if it does then its a foe..

n1 buckeye, its not too obtrusive on the eye either.


wardz

[Vagabond]

Fair idea, bucky, but there is one downside to this method. The further away a life force is from your character, the less visible it will be to you. This is because the highlighting is proportional to the relative size of the life force. Imagine how big the highlight would be when illuminating a hidden target that is, say, 50 meters away. It would be scarcely a speck, and yet such a relatively close life force should be quite easy for a Jedi to detect.

This is another advantage to using the overhead map method, which will apparently be absent due to the limitations of the Q3 engine.

And as Stormy pointed out, without the reference of the map outlines, an overhead radar-type display of life forces would be far less valuable. Is that target 5 meters away or 50?

[Agen]

good idea bucky but what about u can set what range u want to see like 1-10 or 50-60 and thing but it's not very jedish but it makes it so liek u cannot concetrate on everthin at one time

[Dirth Vedar]

With the glow, it looks very nice, and I think it's a very clean way of implementing it. It's the first thing I thought about when the discussion of force seeing without automap first began. But I realize that the idea, though slick, and nice looking, probably wouldn't replace the original map way. Other than the point that things far away are small (though certainly bigger than a dot on a map), the bigger problem is that you still can't see behind you. With a radar style, although it looks ugly, you can see in 360 degrees, with this glow, you'll see everything in front of you better, but if you're being ambushed by 20 storm troopers from behind, you're still screwed, plus you can use the overhead cam to plan escape routes or whatever. So though I love the idea, I am certain there'll be die hard force see fans that'll grumble about it. Besides, how many people would invest 3 points in force see to see some storm trooper glow behind a door? Okay... I don't know how many, maybe there'll be enough people who find it useful... but still... not quite the omniscient power that it once was.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Vagabond
And as Stormy pointed out, without the reference of the map outlines, an overhead radar-type display of life forces would be far less valuable. Is that target 5 meters away or 50?

Well, the distance problem might be overcome by using concentric bands of set limits, like 5, 10, 15 metres within the radar visualisation. Life energies could be colour coded, so you can at least see the direction of friend or foe. Having said that, it is probably dubious that even a radar would make it into the game...it's not that far removed from an overhead outline map, after all. If there is no automap...why include a radar?

Something like buckeye suggested may be a more viable visual option, but as you pointed out, it would have very restricted use due to the size reduction of life-forms over distance.

In addition to that...you could be seeing so many foes, etc., that you cannot see the wood for the trees...you end up with information overload. I would suspect that any system they implemented along these lines would have to have a radius of functionality - maybe a limit of 50 metres, perhaps. However, within that 50 metre radius you could have 40-50 foes all around you, at varying distances, and it would be very hard to tell the exact distances as the colour-coded shapes merge into one another. You would get closer foes overlaying more distant foes, so it could potentially become unmanageable at best...and create horrendous framerate drops at worst.

As indicated before, there does not seem to be a clean-cut solution to replace the combination of automap with Force Seeing. :(

At the moment, I cannot really see any system being implemented to replace this combination, hence my concern.

buckeye...you're welcome ;)

[acdcfanbill]

well, it looks similar to the aura that the alien sees...

this could work though, to see far away enimies, maybe the aura could start close, highlighting those enemies/objects and quickly move away to a max distance of say 50 meters... only about a 5 meter width would be highlighted at a time, it could take, i dunno, 2 sec to move in concentric outward circles to the edge of your sight, maybe the distance would depend on what lvl of force you were on. and the distance would depend on the brightness of the hue....

[digl]

I wonder what Raven guys think of all this
Is this already solved, even before they announced the non existance of the map?
Or maybe they just realized with this thread that they "must do something quickly"
KISS Army? MRJ? I know you are there, I can sense your presence ;) :emperor:

[bsbuckeye21]

Dirth Vedar, first I was gonna say something snippy like: "Why don't you just turn around?", but you're right about having a "sense" because you're a Jedi. Hmm... yet another problem. I would be satisfied if the enemies' "glow" would be apparent on your back and getting along fine without eyes in the back of my head.

About the distance issue: If the enemies are that far away, then they're pretty far away. ;) I don't want to be too smug playing an FPS. That'd just bog the system down anyway if something was glowing on the otherside of the level. What are you gonna do? Get out a particular weapon for the enemy on the other side of the level, and just disregard the enemies that are firing at you right now? I would have enough to worry about just a room or two over.

I hope your sense is extra-strong, digl. ;)

[StormHammer]

Hmmm...maybe I didn't explain my point clearly enough.

Let's say you see the glow of an enemy 5 metres away behind a door. You open the door...and find a whole column of 20 Stormtroopers, one behind the other. You would not have been able to see them all, because the Stormy at the front of the column blocked all the others from view. So instead of facing 1 enemy, you are facing 20.

Now, with an automap, and Force See, you would be able to see all 20 of those Stormies in a line, and have time to prepare yourself.

See the difference? In other words, you are getting a false reading, and so the feature becomes worthless. :(

[digl]

dont worry bsbuckeye21, the force is strong with me :emperor:

I think you should somehow detect enemies far away, to avoid snipers.Of course snipers should have the ability to "force cloak" also. Here the mana that the powers use and the time they last should balance things out

[Nemios]

I would be satisfied if there are arrows-like object around the screen flashing more quickly when enemies are near you. Remember X-Wing Alliance, the little yellow arrow pointing to the target? Maybe the more you are experienced in that power the more arrows could appear. There should be a limit to the arrows you can see and those should point to the most near enemies. Walls or enemies behind you aren't problems in this way. Obviously this isn't as efficient as automap+see but we already know automap isn't present so complain is useless. Plus I don't like the idea of a radar (even if in MotS because of really dark levels I constantly used automap+see).

[Lord_FinnSon]

Well, I like the glow thing, because it's much more in the right way, but perhaps it should be applied only to enemies, who are behind the wall in the nearest room. And I'm just talking about "smaller" enemies like stormtroopers; fully trained Dark/Light Jedis and Sith Lords should never be seen in advance, because they can hide their presence, if needed to. Luke(in the movies) wasn't exactly fully trained in the way Old Republic's Jedi were, so he couldn't even hide his feelings from Vader or Emperor; Obi-Wan revealed his presence intentionally to Vader in ANH, because he knew he should confront him again and in TPM Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon didn't exactly expect to ram into Maul. ;)

[nykel007]

Bucky,:D that's exactly how I envisioned Force Seeing to be like. I hope that it is implemented somehow. Also there cold be a small 3d map in the upper corner like RougeSqud. for us to see far off enemies.

[ed_silvergun]

Vagabond, you make a number of very good points, and whilst I don't agree with all your specific examples from the films, I think, on reflection, you're probably right about the automap/seeing combination being the best in-game implementation of the Jedi's extra-sensory powers that we're likely to get.

I have to say, I find it hard to believe that Q3 tech prohibits the implementation of an automap feature. Does anyone have any more specific info on why this is?

[digl]

Its probably possible to implement that feature in the Q3 engine somehow, but either they came up with a different kind of seeing, or they were just too lazy to put it in (that would be a really big mistake, that they would notice reading this thread)

[StephenG]

Originally posted by nykel007
Bucky,:D that's exactly how I envisioned Force Seeing to be like. I hope that it is implemented somehow. Also there cold be a small 3d map in the upper corner like RougeSqud. for us to see far off enemies.

thats a good idea bsbuckeye21 & nykel007. there should be a small map like RougeSqud that should only near bad guys, friendies etc. i like this idea more than the automap thing.

[Vagabond]

StephenG, and some of the others who seem indifferent to the apparent absence of the automap / Force See combination from JKII - I ask you to not take this the wrong way, but have any of you actually played Jedi Knight / MotS multiplay with Force See as implemented in those games? My reason for asking is because some of your comments lead me to believe that perhaps you have never truly realized the power and uniqueness that their combination brought to the gaming world.

True, there are some veteran JK players that appear to be content with the loss of this power, and they are entitled to their educated opinions. However, if one has not experienced something, how can one offer an informed opinion on that subject?

If you have extensively used Force See in Jedi Knight / MotS multiplay, then please accept my apologies for my false perception.

[StephenG]

force seeing was one of the most overlooked powers in JK. ok so most of as here did u it (for the record i did you it with the automap feature) but then again alot of JK players didn't. i reckon that using force seeing with the automap gave to much away for me...it didn't feel right to me. Kyle isn't a full Jedi and i dont think he should beable to sence badguys that are soo far away from him. that why i said the Rogue Squ radar thing was a great idea, fits Kyle like my boots fits my feet. with this feature you see baddies within a certin raduis and as his skill grows the raduis increases in size.

Originally posted by ed_silvergun
I have to say, I find it hard to believe that Q3 tech prohibits the implementation of an automap feature. Does anyone have any more specific info on why this is?

no, automap thing can be put into Q3 engine, it just takes time. it Valve software can put HLTV in the old half-life enigne (half-life engine = modified quake1 with some quake 2 code) then Raven can do it with the Q3 engine

[Vagabond]

StephenG


...Kyle isn't a full Jedi and i dont think he should beable to sence badguys that are soo far away from him. that why i said the Rogue Squ radar thing was a great idea...


There are a couple problems with this statement. The most important being that Kyle, through the previous Jedi Knight games, has already demonstrated the ability to see life forces on the entire map, so limiting his ability here introduce consistency problems. The second problem is that, in my opinion, it just doesn't make sense. The third is that without any frame of reference (the map), the little "blips" on the "radar" mean nothing - range or location of targets cannot be determined.

Were the game to actually have an overhead map and Force See, one compromise might be to increase the range of Force See as one became more powerful in that ability. But again, the discussion is academic since it appears as though there will be no Force See.

[Wilhuf]

It is somewhat academic at this point, if we are to take Raven's comments such as 'Q3 technology cannot project an overhead map on-screen' at face value. Probably it is much more difficult to generalize and project Q3's brush geometry onto an overhead map than it was with Jedi Knight's surface geometry.

I used force seeing most of the time in multiplay JK/MotS, enjoyed it a lot and will miss it in Jedi Outcast. It did add a fun dimension to gameplay. Nothing could escape the Jedi's sight.

However, Jedi Knight force seeing, which revealed the location of enemies in multiplayer, diminished (or even completely eliminated) the opportunities for staging an ambush. You could easily discern your opponent's strategy by watching where he would go on the overhead map. It was very difficult to be surprised by an attack in Jedi Knight. Although that was part of the fun. We've said this many times through the history of this board.

So, while the loss of Force Seeing is a disappointment, on the positive side, Jedi Outcast's elimination of seeing will allow for ambush. As I've said earlier, we'll have to rely on hearing as well as seeing to track our target. Outcast gameplay will be different. This is welcome news.

[Agen]

what about bucky's idea except u get different colours deoending on how far they are away?

[Vagabond]

What I'm afraid of, Wilhuf, is that JKII multiplay will lose much of the specialness that set it apart from other FPS games. True, it will have Force powers and the lightsaber, but the loss of Force See is exceedingly significant.

Non-Jedi should not be able to cloak themselves from Force See. Jedi, on the other hand, should be able to. One's strength in Force See could be pitted against a target's ability in, let's call it Force Cloak, introducing a fun little bit of role playing.

The apparent loss of Force See and the overhead map reduces my expectations of JKII.

[ed_silvergun]

Originally posted by Wilhuf
So, while the loss of Force Seeing is a disappointment, on the positive side, Jedi Outcast's elimination of seeing will allow for ambush. As I've said earlier, we'll have to rely on hearing as well as seeing to track our target. Outcast gameplay will be different. This is welcome news.

Originally posted by Vagabond
What I'm afraid of, Wilhuf, is that JKII multiplay will lose much of the specialness that set it apart from other FPS games. True, it will have Force powers and the lightsaber, but the loss of Force See is exceedingly significant.

I think you both make fair points, and it could probably go either way. The omission of Force Seeing and the automap feature could prove to make Jedi Outcast "just another FPS" (except with a saber) or it could well prove to alter the dynamic in a positive way, such as Wilhuf has outlined. Personally I'm going to wait to see how the game plays before making a judgement.

I have to concede one thing, though. You never know quite how much you'll miss a feature you're used to having until you've had to do without it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[Agen]

I have to concede one thing, though. You never know quite how much you'll miss a feature you're used to having until you've had to do without it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
agreed.
Who knows. maybe Raven have something up there sleeve that we don't even know.

[Rancor]

I've played a whole lot of games in my time and the lack of auto-mapping does not really bother me for this kind of game. I could see it being useful in an adventure game with a hub type system, where you spend a fair amount of time going back and forth between different areas.....but I haven't heard anything about JK2 being such a game.

[ed_silvergun]

As Vagabond has pointed out at least once, the issue is not one of navigating round the maps, it's the extra dimension of strategy which the Force Seeing and automap combination lends to gameplay.

[digl]

exactly
no one here cares about the lack of map in SP
we are talking about MP and the map+seeing combo

[Vagabond]

Thanks ed_silvergun and digl. I was just about to re-clarify about wanting the automap for use with Force See, not as a navigational tool, but I see you've already done that for me. Thanks, guys :cool:

[digl]

I dont know If this has been told im magazines or previews. I think not, at least Its not mentioned as a confirmed power in the official page

There will be force sight

Apparently Itll work in an interesting way, I dont know how tho

[StephenG]

Originally posted by digl
I dont know If this has been told im magazines or previews. I think not, at least Its not mentioned as a confirmed power in the official page

There will be force sight

Apparently Itll work in an interesting way, I dont know how tho

wel just have to wait and see. i'm thinking it be like that seeing power in MotS which was like spec. mode in CS.

[[SWS]Strider]

What if force sight allowed you to view through other weaker beings bodies? Kinda like spectator mode on most FPS where you can view all thier movments.

Strider

[GonkH8er]

you read my mind strider :)

[Vagabond]

*Emperor's Throne Room Theme*

Good, good! *cackles* So there will be Force Sight? I can feel the anticipation swelling within you. LucasArts was wise to hide this from me :cool:

[SlowbieOne]

Although I may be mistaken, I don't remeber a Force Seeing being in the expaneded universe. I have always thought of Force Seeing as more of a Force Sense.

Hear me out. Numerous times, especially in the Thrawn Trilogy, Luke uses the Force to stretch out his feelings and sense if there is danger near. He couldn't see through wall or anything, but he could tell if something was amiss and he could tell which direction it was and how far. For some reason this is more believeable for me than being able to just "turn on" Force Seeing. I'm not denying the fact that there is a Force Seeing at all or that it wouldn't be cool.

Even though it wouldn't matter what we said because the game is now in beta and the Force powers are probably already imbedded in stone, I have a theory on how I think Force Sense would work well.

Rather than being a "visual" Force power where you trigger a switch in your mind or whatever, perhaps and auditory method would be more realistic not to metion more intense. For example, you turn it on and you can hear a heartbeat or something of that manner. If the danger is far, the heartbeat would be faint,and heavier if danger was nearer. Also the heartbeat would come in more clearly if you were facing the direction of the danger, rather than the opposite direction.

True, this way could turn out to be not as cool as I thought, but I know I would have more fun using it this way as opposed to the old Force Sight.:)

However, if they decide to put a Force Persuasion in the game(I'm really hope they don't), then the old Force Seeing will almost definately be necesary as a counter.

[Vagabond]

Well, the only way I see for implementing a Force Sense power us by using the top secret IEEE 86123 technology, UNB 7.0, Universal Neural Bus. So, we all just plug one end our handy IEEE 86123 UNB 7.0 cable into our computer, and the other end into our skull. Only then will we truly experience Force Sense ;)

[ed_silvergun]

Originally posted by digl
There will be force sight

Apparently Itll work in an interesting way, I dont know how tho

Without wishing to sound like a Doubting Thomas, do you have a source for this? Or are you doing a GonkH8er on us? ;)

[Lord_FinnSon]

Rather than being a "visual" Force power where you trigger a switch in your mind or whatever, perhaps and auditory method would be more realistic not to metion more intense. For example, you turn it on and you can hear a heartbeat or something of that manner. If the danger is far, the heartbeat would be faint,and heavier if danger was nearer. Also the heartbeat would come in more clearly if you were facing the direction of the danger, rather than the opposite direction.How about going a little bit further? In the movies they use telepathy here and there, so why not also in JK2: as a faint echo, you hear Stormtrooper who wants to get some sleep after standing in his post too many hours or perhaps someone is wondering, why his gun is not working properly(at the same time these are little tidbits for you). It also occurred to me that perhaps this would be cool as a scripted event(and not as a real Force power that you can use anytime you want) much like conversations in NOLF and AvsP 2; in MotS also Mara sensed people near her while in The New Republic ship level, but this time you could really hear them. :D

[NeJJa]

Force seeing + map overlay in the original jedi knight was mainly used to see when items respawned. Seeing other players only requires 1 star, while most every good player used 4 stars on all neutral powers. the fourth star is the one that enables you to see items :rolleyes:

[NeJJa]

also, as far as an 'auditory' force seeing, in the original jedi knight, the enemies in SP made enough noise to where you would only have to pause for a second to hear the stormtroopers radio or the droids errrrr droid noises. In multiplayer, whenever a player had either force seeing, speed, and various light-side powers activated, you could hear them from a mile away ^_^