Light Saber Battles to be the main event

[Logan SkyWalker]

:atat: :atat: :atat: :atat: :atat: :atat: :atat: :atat: :atat: :atat: :

Well as we all know the most anticipated aspect of Jedi Knight Outcast is unarguably the way in witch the light saber duals will be played out. FACT: if Raven fails at this, the whole game that was desinged around it will fall apart and wont have the same playability as Quake or the newer RTCW, but these games dont have two big things in the eyes of most reading this post one is the majestic look of the Star Wars universe, the other, and you guessed it ....is the "light saber." Ah we fell in love with the way we could swing the lightsaber in the previouse titles , but after too short a time we realized those saber battles had little depth. Running past eachother swinging away trying what seemed like just a bit of luck and speed to win these battles.... and it felt more like a joust then a saber dual....right ?? So what do we expect now, what are we asking of Raven, cause after all its going to be a long while till they pick this project up for anthor title. They better get it right NOW. And if they do, if they awe us and keep us swinging those majestic saber at each other for a long time from now THEN I can say they did it right. Ive read many postes here about this and some ideas sound really good and iI lioke the passive blocking like in the origianal cause you dont want to make it too complex after all that losses playability also. If you want my opinon i feel it should play out like Soul Calibur on the dreamcast but in third person of course for the saber battles. You need a low attack button or a duck attack to create realism. I also belive in combos but in differnet fighting stlyes that should be selectable, witch would give differnet combos and force the true saber master to study all the techniques (i.e. combos). This are some of the things that seem obviouse to me and other i have read. Id like to hear your input on what you feel would be needed to create an altimate Jedi Knight Outcast package, Thanks for your time sorry so long
Jedi in Training , Logan

[digl]

First, welcome to the forums logan, you should get your welcome stuff soon :D

Second, not to bring you down, but I guess the lightsaber system is ready, and I doubt Itll be changed, so most of the discussion made now about the saber will be useless, but Im wrong sometimes (not many times tho ;))

We dont have a detailed description of how it will work, but I know Raven guys know the importance of this issue, and wont release a crappy LS control system

However what I most anticipate about jedi outcast is playing again mp with force powers, weapons and lightsaber, not only saber, and now in good servers
But I know LS control is the most important point for many people, so if they screw it (I know they wont) the playing community will be much smaller than what It could be

[Obi Kwan]

For me, it is all about the functionality of the sabre and how well it works in multiplayer. I view everything else, force powers and single player included, as secondary.

That being said, I have faith that raven will deliver, even if the sabre control is not the realtime control that I'd like. I cant wait!

[Slonn]

:c3po: How much detail would you want them to go to? Make them push it too much, and you end up with an over-complicated sequence where you anxiously try to block every shot while returning blows, while having to choose which saber slash technique you want to use to kill him.

Try giving a detailed account of how you would like it done. If I were asked, I would immediately say: 'Manual blocking." without missing a beat. Why? I hated the mindless lucky swings, even though I got good at it. What would it be like if I could counter that heavy swing - with a better chance of blocking than 5% - and twirl as I plunged my lightsaber into his back. This is all you would need. If you wanted to spice it up a bit, get them to add multiple animations of the swing, to make it seem as though he wasn't just foolishly swinging.

[Millions o' Monkeys]

ok well wouldnt it be great if raven just gave us a little more info...just a little , hint hint

[The Seeker]

Welcome Logan. *hands Logan welcome gift basket*

Truth be told, I was totally happy with the saber in the original JK. So, with Raven at the helm, I have a feeling they will only improve on it. Whether it is a significant change, or just tweaking the old system, the game will certainly be awsome.

[Redwing]

Well, with the JK style sabers, Star Wars-movie-ish duels are suicide. You have to use a slash-and-run style, where you run in, slash your opponent, and run out before he can slash back, because you know you won't be able to block him, and even if you do, you'll be unable to move for the next few seconds as Kyle goes through a blocking animation and your opponent hacks you to bits... :rolleyes:

[Toa Tahu]

I didn't like the saber battles in JK at all.Kyle is slow,and his swing is not all that powerful,and that makes it hard to defeat Pic,Gorc,Maw,Sariss,Bog,Jerec...However,i hope that the saber system in JK2 will be much better,and I DO REALLY hope that Kyle is faster this time round.

[Shmed]

I am also hoping for a much deeper lightsaber control this time around also. I got the chance to play Obi-Wan for a good 8 or so hours last weekend and I thought it did some things with respect to control really well (despite the game itself being mediocre). I liked the blocking system for one, it makes all people happy. Basically you have passive blocking as well as manual blocking. The catch is that passive blocking just deflects shots harmlessly where a manual block will deflect a laser blast right back at the shooter, or in the case of a melee attack, stun the opponent for half a second (giving you a chance to get a swing in quickly). It works quite well also. Obi-Wan also has a couple combos you could pull off with the lightsaber by double-tapping an attack. I wished there were more combos, and I'd definitely like to see some in JK II. To keep things pretty simple, it's possible just to use 2 buttons (primary and secondary attack buttons) and the directions to create lots of combos, like in Bungie's game Oni. Simple stuff like primary, primary, secondary... or back, forward+primary and so on. Really easy stuff, so the people who want to keep it simple won't be alienated. My personal wish is that you'll be able to attack high/mid/low simply by attacking with the cursor over that part of your opponent's body. Click on the head, get a high attack and so on... this is very simple but adds some depth to the system, especially if some form of manual blocking is in place (block high if they hit high).

Anyway, I hope it turns out alright :)

[Tay-Mar]

Surely the whole point of auto-block on JK was to see how u're enemy fights so u know when and where to strike !

After mastering this aspect of JK taking out Gork, Pic and the others is just a matter of time and patience.

I am however concerned about the use of Force Powers in MP, JK was a great MP game but became a little one-sided when dealing with a Dark Jedi. I got more than a little ####ed off with force grip damage..........know what i mean !

I just hope that Light and Dark force powers are a little more balanced this time round.

[Logan SkyWalker]

wished there were more combos, and I'd definitely like to see some in JK II. To keep things pretty simple, it's possible just to use 2 buttons (primary and secondary attack buttons) and the directions to create lots of combos, like in Bungie's game Oni. Simple stuff like primary, primary, secondary... or back, forward+primary and so on. Really easy stuff, so the people who want to keep it simple won't be alienated.

Totaly agree with this 100% but not the high/mid/low attack that would be WAY to complex!!!! Also a duck attack would give you your low anyway .... after all Kyle has to crouch anyway ... so use it in a combo.

AND FOR BLOCKING AUTO OR PASSIVE BLOCKING, WITHOUT A DOUBT, IS A MUST ....HANDSolo DOWN !!! 80)

[StormHammer]

Welcome to the forums, Logan. ;) Hope you enjoy your stay...

*hands over a chocolate Jedi Medallion*

There you go. :D


As for Lightsabers being the main event, I'm not sure I totally agree. For me it's the choice in how to play the game that matters more...the choice of perspective, force powers, guns and lightsaber combat. The choice of how to play the game, makes me want to play it more, so I can try out all the features.

I do agree that the lightsaber combat needs to be ramped up a great deal for JKII. I would certainly like to see a greater variety of attacks. As for high/mid/low...there is no reason why this cannot be done. They're using GHOUL 2, which allows about 36 different hit zones on the body of your opponent...so I'm looking forward to being able to deal out damage to specific areas. I'm not sure how many hit zones JKII will actually use, but I'm at least hoping for all the limbs, torso and head. My own feeling is that a head shot should really be a one-slash-kill...unless your opponent is using some kind of Force protection.

Apparently the movement is loosely based on what they did with Heretic II, which uses attack in tandem with movement keys (like JK), though it's supposed to be improved. I once worked out about 50 moves using 3-key combos, so a wide variety of moves is certainly possible - although I highly doubt we will see anywhere near that many in the game.

As for auto-blocking, it's a pet hate of mine. I got fed up of auto-blocking in JK, becaust it would always block an attack just as I was about to make an attack of my own. It should be my choice whether I want to accept some damage in order to deliver a killing blow...but it's pointless discussing this now, because it's been confirmed that there will be no manual blocking in the FAQ update. It's going to be very similar to JK, so I guess I'll have to clench my teeth and live with it.

There are already going to be drastic changes to how this game will be played, both in SP and MP, and the only real test of how successful these changes are will be in the physical gameplay.

[Agen]

I agree withm ost of what stormhammer says there and about the auto-block thing i think it should be a choice in the settings wether u want to auto-block.
I am however concerned about the use of Force Powers in MP, JK was a great MP game but became a little one-sided when dealing with a Dark Jedi. I got more than a little ####ed off with force grip damage..........know what i mean !

BTW just put on absorb and laugh at them but when i gripped people lgiht-jedi done that so i let them steal my force but it holds them in place so i jsut shot at them and then they died.

[StormHammer]

Just to clarify my point a little further...I'm not saying auto-blocking shouldn't be in the game at all. It is very useful for deflecting blaster fire...although there was a problem when you were under a hail of fire from several opponents, that you could not make any kind of attack with the lightsaber. I suppose this would make sense, actually, and is reminiscent of the stand-off between Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan and the Droidekas in TPM. Their best tactic was to get out of there and regroup. If there is an opportunity to do this in JKII, it should work out okay.

The crux of my point is that deflecting blaster fire and entering lightsaber combat are two totally different things. Autoblocking is acceptable to me for blaster fire...but not as acceptable for saber fighting, which should rely more on skill and tactics and taking risks. That is where I think a manual block would have been useful, so the saber battles would have been a bit more like Rune's, which worked quite well, IMHO. Even pressing a mouse button down to enable blocking (which could auto-block more than one swing), and then releasing to turn it off would have been a bit better from my POV. At least then you would still be able to duck or sidestep and attack, without auto-blocking all of the time.

Anyway, maybe someone will make a mod along these lines, so I haven't entirely given up hope on it yet. :)

[wardz]

good points Stormy,

Raven have said that they want you to be able to play throgh the whole SP missions with the LS only if you should wish. They are not going to implement some crappy half baked system if they want you to do that are they?


wardz

[URLACHER_54]

I think the blocking system from JK was good just to slow for MP, if they make the saber as good as theyre saying itll make MP a LOT better.

[Agen]

The crux of my point is that deflecting blaster fire and entering lightsaber combat are two totally different things. Autoblocking is acceptable to me for blaster fire...but not as acceptable for saber fighting, which should rely more on skill and tactics and taking risks. That is where I think a manual block would have been useful, so the saber battles would have been a bit more like Rune's, which worked quite well, IMHO. Even pressing a mouse button down to enable blocking (which could auto-block more than one swing), and then releasing to turn it off would have been a bit better from my POV. At least then you would still be able to duck or sidestep and attack, without auto-blocking all of the time.

I see your point clearly but i think that lec considered it but for multiplayer the net-code would hvae been too slow and they would have hit you first. Q3 is gonna do this better but worse for 56kers (prolly) unless they do collission detection then stormie's wish would be easy to implement and we can still keep it for blocking.

[DeathBoLT]

FACT: if Raven fails at this, the whole game that was desinged around it will fall apart and wont have the same playability as Quake or the newer RTCW,

no, thats an opinion.

Personally, I don't think the lightsaber will neccesarily be the thing that makes or breaks JKII. Yes, I would be rather disapointed if they were lousy in JK2, but I think that the guns and the force powers are also significant factors in how the game turns out. Even if the lightsaber turns into a fairly useless weapon, if you have decent guns and useful force powers, you will still have a great game on your hands. Even if you never played them, FF Guns and NF Guns were very enjoyable forms of playing in JK; in fact, they could arguably be the best aspect of JK.

but after too short a time we realized those saber battles had little depth. Running past eachother swinging away trying what seemed like just a bit of luck and speed to win these battles....

NF Sabers, if you played it right, was rarely luck. The NF sabers I played and [ego swelling] excelled at, was a very graceful and skillful means of playing, particularly for a movement based style of play.

[DeathBoLT]

Regarding wanting the saber duels to be movie like, here is something i posted earlier in a different thread:

I don't remember JK just being sabers being swung wildly; there weren't many things to do with katarns arms, but it was very elaborate movement-wise. I think it was better this way anyways... how slow would the game had to have been in order to have darth vader v luke skywalker style fighting(which was all they had at the time) or ep1-style, which would require less focus on movement, and more on arms, which would have slowed the game's pace down tremendously, ruining the enjoyment of other aspects of the game(ie nf guns, ff guns/sabers) and made for a eventually very boring nf sabers that focus strictly on button mashing..

in order to get the thing slow paced enough for these movie-style movements(which in turn would lead to button mashing style gameplay, you'd have to slow katarn's movement down tremendously...

it sounds great at first; i know, ive thought about how cool it would be to have ep1-style saber duels, but when you think how movement will be impacted and how slow the game will get, you realize how ****ty a deal it would become after a few weeks of it for most people.

i'd save this type deal for a mod, for those who want to play RPG, button-mashing games or whatever; because people are going to get tired of painfully slow game play and aren't going to want to pretend their in the movies and are going to find ways around any slow movement or other pace-restricting elements(which would in turn ruin the game for a-many of people) and are going to ruin how you want to play.

[DeathBoLT]

I liked the blocking system for one, it makes all people happy. Basically you have passive blocking as well as manual blocking. The catch is that passive blocking just deflects shots harmlessly where a manual block will deflect a laser blast right back at the shooter, or in the case of a melee attack, stun the opponent for half a second (giving you a chance to get a swing in quickly).

this system sounds kind of interesting..

[StarScrap]

Personally the thing I would like to see would be manual combos (i.e. you have enough moves that you can peice them together whatever way you want, rather than you hit 3 buttons and the comp rattles off 15 swings in quick succession). I just can't get past the apeal of jumping my enemies first swing, coming down with a heavy slash, ducking their next swing, circling arround, and coming up with an uppercut. As for the slowness of gameplay issue, maybe an "advanced saber control" option either in the personal options or in the mp game options.

[Agen]

if u notice a while back slowbie pointed out that kyle seemed to put up his guard early and we though it might have been manual blocking.

[DeathBoLT]

I just can't get past the apeal of jumping my enemies first swing, coming down with a heavy slash, ducking their next swing, circling arround, and coming up with an uppercut.

and to get that, you would have to slow down movement; you can't get 2d arcade style saber fighting in a 3d enviorment without significantly slowing down the pace of the game.

once you throw in force speed, people will be hitting quick bursts of speed to quickly fly past you, killing you while you're attempting to get them to stand still long enough for an elaborate saber duel.

preserve the game, and create a mod later on or offer it as part of the game for those who want to role play and pretend their in the duel of fates or whatever...

[nykel007]

Basically I just want a LS control that would keep me occupied for years to come. Although I'll like some info on saber control soon.

[Logan SkyWalker]

WOW I can believe someone said this game would fly with a bad or even mediocer (spelling?) LS system. First of all, and lets not forget, a jedi's weapon of choice is, after all, the light saber. And like i said in my original post, if you read it, the light saber is what the other two big first person shooters dont have and thats a FACT. So if you think this game will carry as many players without a good to exellent LS system your just plain wrong. Hay, loyalty to a title only carry's as far as quality to the customer. Dont kid yourself. And please this is my first post and already im being insulted, lets try to be civil. OK deathbolt ???
if i played it right ...what nerve!!!


Jedi in Training
Logan Skywalker

[DeathBoLT]

Originally posted by Logan SkyWalker
And like i said in my original post, if you read it, the light saber is what the other two big first person shooters dont have and thats a FACT.
Both of the two other big games have melee weapons. Heck, even UT's melee weapon, the impact hammer blocks just like the lightsaber. The lightsaber is more useful, IMHO, than the Gauntlet, the Impact hammer, axe or whatever, but, its function is nothing new to computer games.


So if you think this game will carry as many players without a good to exellent LS system your just plain wrong.
They probably wouldn't get as much business if the Lightsaber was lousy, but it certainly won't wreck the game. JK had many enjoyable forms of playing 3/4s of which the lightsaber wasn't neccessary.

JK's simple lightsaber didn't stop it from achieving success, and having a simple lightsaber won't stop JKii from being successful.

Damaging all other aspets(movement, force powers) of JKii for the sake of having elaborate arcade game-style saber duels(that people will find a way around and mess up your attempts for elaborate duels anyways) is where the danger to JKii's success lies.


And please this is my first post and already im being insulted, lets try to be civil. OK deathbolt ???
if i played it right ...what nerve!!!

I sincerely mean no offense, but you obviously haven't played it right if you think its luck.

btw welcome to the forums

[Shmed]

"Totaly agree with this 100% but not the high/mid/low attack that would be WAY to complex!!!! "

I'm not sure you understood what I meant completely. The high/mid/low attacks would be done simply by attacking high/mid/low on the enemy character model with the mouse. It's as simple as can be.

Also another thing about Obi-Wan I liked were the force lightsaber fights... basically they just used the force to pull off especially powerful swings... which added a whole level of new swings to Obi-Wan's combat system. The more I think about it the more I like Obi's combat system. It is tight and responsive, effective and simple but deeper than JK's. The blocking system I mentioned above is especially good. I forgot to mention the manual blocks use a little force power too (since you're using the force to direct the shot back at the shooter). Too bad the rest of the game (Obi-Wan) isn't as good... the graphics suck, animations are stiff, level design is uninspired and repetitive, awful, truly awful voice acting, and Obi-Wan controls like a car (you can't strafe and turn at the same time so you have to back up and around to turn quickly, like a car).

[Logan SkyWalker]

Those other games you mentioned are not of the same caliber as QUAKE 3 or RTCW in my book anyway. And if i wanted a gun specific type shooter even being a hugh Star Wars fan, RTCW would probably take the cake in that department. Cause those weapons are "REAL" and so is the enemy. So for me as for MOST others, the lightsaber system must be done well to make this game as playable as the others. And as for playing JK right .... anytime bub...:lsduel:

[DeathBoLT]

i'd be happy to play you and show you how its done :P
icq- 55920286
zone name: Deathbolt, but i don't get on that too often; i don't play JK very often anymore so we're better off using icq to organize a game.


ed- btw i mentioned q3 in the form of stating the guantlet

[Logan SkyWalker]

gauntlet vs. saber do i need to go on .... jezz !!!!!!!!!!

[nykel007]

You know what I would like to see now since JK2 is in it's final months, if LEC/Raven offer not a whole demo level but just a small room somewhat, with you and your lightsaber slicing up a few ST. Just so that we could get a feel of how Ls control works.

[GB_StormTrooper]

Now that would be sweet...I love to Lightsaber Duel :):saberb: :saberr:

[Agen]

the others. And as for playing JK right .... anytime bub...
BTW, if i'm right most of the peps here are ex-jk players and er..... quite.. good. I played DeathBolt a few times on the zone under a similar name. (in the days where jk was played)Damn he uses all the tactics i use and i think i managed to peep a win over him but still not the person to be messing with when u just joined jk2.net

PS. i don't mean to offend u or anything but i think u needed more than luck to win jk saber battles even though i'm ff gunner.

[Obi Kwan]

Originally posted by [eVe]DeathBoLT


JK's simple lightsaber didn't stop it from achieving success, and having a simple lightsaber won't stop JKii from being successful.

I think here inlies the heart of the argument; whether people want a really cool FPS in the StarWars galaxy or whether people want a really cool FPS int he StarWars galaxy that lets you be a jedi.

For me personally, I'd find little satisfaction with just force powers and guns and some useless sabre. That was fun in its time, about 4 years ago and at the time it seemed like we were all jedi running around slashing each other, but that wont suffice this time around!

[The Seeker]

Woo hoo! looks like we may have a duel of honor between the newbie and deathbolt!

Place your bets. my cash is on deathbolt. :D

[Agen]

my money's on deathbolt........ €50

[Ushgarak]

Sabre fighting wasn't completely luck in the original but I would be surrpised if anyone thinks it was a satisfactory representation of duelling from the films. And I don;t think many found them any fun in ANY sense at all.

[DeathBoLT]

While I don't think we've ever played terminator, I appreciate the vote of confidence.. :P

back on topic tho:
gauntlet vs. saber do i need to go on .... jezz !!!!!!!!!!

as ive stated before, i think saber was more useful than the gauntlet.. however, even with a simple system it managed to generate a very entertaining method of lightsaber duels, without affecting the other aspects of JK(force, guns, etc.).

However, the methods of 'improving' the saber that you suggested would impact the other aspects of JKii. The Lightsaber wasn't the sole reason for the success of Jedi Knight; guns and force were important part of it too. If JKII is even going to be able to hope to be able to bring some Quake 3 gamers over, its going to have to offer a strong guns system. Slow down the pace of the game to force people to conform to movie style duels and you deny JKii the ability to double as a great fpser, thus inhbiting JKii from attracting even more players from Quake 3, Unreal, etc.'s gaming communities.

[DeathBoLT]

Originally posted by Ushgarak
And I don;t think many found them any fun in ANY sense at all.

Thats not entirely true... I never had problems finding a BGJ NF game to play on the Zone whereas with most of the other popular settings, finding people could get hard sometimes, mid '00(which was pretty much the last time I played frequently and competively.. heh)

I think its primarily because most gunners were drawn towards newer games, and FF had such a large learning curve. But either way, so many people wouldn't play BGJ NF if it wasn't fun. Remember, there are newer games out there offering melee combat(although none matched JK BGJ NF in my opinion). If they didn't like BGJ NF, they could have gone to play sword fighting elsewhere.

ed- comprehensibility issues

[swift_saber]

There are some serious noobs that dont know a thing about light saber duels in JK here. Saber duels are true tests of skill. due to lag in JK, blocking was not that important because you are always trying to strike where the other person was GOING to be so you would rarely block if you knew what you were doning. Sabers make JK a great game, i can play guns on a ton of games. Gotta play CS now.

[Logan SkyWalker]

first off I may be a newbie to this forem but not to Jedi Knight, I played the game from its release and still do to this day, (cause thats all there is, damit)

But my point is this and has been from post #1, and i didnt expect argument over this, without a enjoyable LS system this game will not live up to the hype. Guess ill just whave to put it to a vote.

[DeathBoLT]

well the major part of the debate was what was enjoyable.

You, quite a few of other forum users, and even I, thought movie-like saber fighting, in a method that basically amounts to a 2d arcade street fighter, etc. with lightsabers would be cool. i quit thinking it would be so cool when i realized the destructive impact of having the Saber-dueling system, designed in the way just mentioned, would have have on every other aspects of JKii.

however, JK was successful with a relatively simple Lightsaber, and I think JKII will be too, as long as you offer great game play in the other aspects of the game.

[Wilhuf]

Slow down the pace of the game to force people to conform to movie style duels and you deny JKii the ability to double as a great fpser, thus inhbiting JKii from attracting even more players from Quake 3, Unreal, etc.'s gaming communities.

Presumably by 'slower paced' Deathbolt somehow means reduced force speed, or overall slower character movement. But he hasn't really established how a slower paced game would amount to an 'arcade' two-dimensional fighting game.

How would a slower pace encourage button mashing? Jedi Knight and MotS had a very fast pace, and they were rife with button mashing: Supergrip and superlightning everywhere. A faster paced game with button mashing.

If Outcast has many elaborate saber button combinations, then sure, Outcast would resemble an arcade button-mashing fighting game. Perhaps this is what you were getting at? I don't believe that is what Raven has planned.

In any case, pacing would have nothing to do with button mashing.

Also, how would a slower pace in any way prevent Outcast from attracting more players from other communities? The opposite could be true actually. The slower pace would likely be much more appealing to a broader audience. I know several newcomers to Jedi Knight who were completely turned off by the pace of Jedi Knight (too fast they said).

At worst case, with a lower pace, a few Jedi Knighters, unable to adapt, would refuse to play. No loss.

In all likelihood the rest of the 'vets' would complain, adapt, and eventually enjoy it. Some of the more resourceful players will code mods to get the exact gameplay they want. Great.

Even with a slower overall pace Outcast will remain very much a 3 dimensional shooter. The projectile weapons are still there. Jump is still there. The level layout will support and encourage 3d movement, including vertical movement.

I agree that getting movie-like gameplay will be difficult. As you've said, it won't work if both opponents fail to play it that way, no matter what the pace. In any case, a slower pace isn't necessarily included for the purpose of creating 'movie-like gameplay.'

Actually one could just make a 'Jedi Knight Classic' mod for Outcast that preserves (as you've demanded) all of the settings and gameplay of the original. No worries.

:holosid:

[DeathBoLT]

Presumably by 'slower paced' Deathbolt somehow means reduced force speed, or overall slower character movement.
No I don't mean reduced force speed, I mean no-force speed, as there couldn't be force speed if you were to impose the neccessary settings to get movie-like game play.

But he hasn't really established how a slower paced game would amount to an 'arcade' two-dimensional fighting game.
RS-speed slow pace.

Supergrip and superlightning everywhere.
supergrip and superlighting were game errors that were considered cheating to some degree, and violations of proper 'JK FF etiquette'. They were the type of things, that when used correctly, that could be seen as the equivalant to aimbot cheats, and perhaps a anti-clip hack because a) they were dead as soon as you got a lock(which wasn't hard to do) and b) due to lag, they could continue to grip you when you left their field of view.

If Outcast has many elaborate saber button combinations, then sure, Outcast would resemble an arcade button-mashing fighting game. I don't believe that is what Raven has planned.
I certainly hope not.


Also, how would a slower pace in any way prevent Outcast from attracting more players from other communities?

The primary audiences that I was referring to were Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, etc. What is a Quake 3 player more likely to choose? A fast paced DM or a RS-paced game with sticks?

I agree that getting movie-like gameplay will be difficult. As you've said, it won't work if both opponents fail to play it that way, no matter what the pace.
I wouldn't mind reducing the pace significantly(well I wouldn't probably wouldn't like it, but I'd get over it), up until where we hit a RS-paced speed.

In any case, a slower pace isn't necessarily included for the purpose of creating 'movie-like gameplay.'

If both indivduals are willing to play slow-paced enough in order to roleplay and have movie like duels, no they would not need to lower speeds. However, if they were to try and impose this on everyone, youl would most likely need to slow down the pace to prevent the guy who wants to play to win and not pretend they're fighting darth maul, qui gon, or whoever from making hit and run attacks.

Actually one could just make a 'Jedi Knight Classic' mod for Outcast that preserves (as you've demanded) all of the settings and gameplay of the original.
I don't want to preserve all the aspects of the game; I just don't want to play RS-paced Deathmatch with sticks and a conc/rocket launcher type weapon/whatever.

[Wilhuf]

What is a Quake 3 player more likely to choose? A fast paced DM or a RS-paced game with sticks?
If given those odd choices, fast paced DM, of course.

But Outcast could easily be something in-between those polar opposites. Probably a fast or medium paced DM with lightsabers. I believe Force speed is available in Outcast. 'Sticks' makes it sound so ... not fun.

I doubt guns are being thrown in as an afterthought. There will be plenty of gun play. Although the lightsaber badly needs a dose of respect.

If there is some kind of force allocation system for multiplayer, it's possible gamers can pick settings that support 'movie play.' Or they could pick faster gameplay for Jedi-Lord style high speed play. Gamers should be able to choose which they prefer, so no one style will be 'imposed' on anyone.

[DeathBoLT]

...the lightsaber badly needs a dose of respect.

Well the reality is, if the same movement, same settings, same guns, same maps, same everything were put onto a Quake 3 Engine with pixel collision detection, dedicated servers, etc., the Lightsaber would be a extremely lethal weapon. Because once you snuck up them, or managed to get close enough to make contact, its over for the gunner. The only reason the Lightsaber was such an ineffectual weapon in Jedi Knight, was simply because it was difficult to score a hit between the poor collision detection and lag. I'm sure pixel collision detection, dedicated servers, etc. will make the Lightsaber a weapon that leaves gunners panically attempting to get out of the way when you ambush them, rather than calmly hopping away whilst taking shots at you.

There will be plenty of gun play.
I don't doubt that for a second. I'd just rather not play RS guns in JKII :)

'Sticks' makes it sound so ... not fun.
I'm as anxious for Lightsabers as any one else(NF sabers was the main thing that I played competively in JK), but for many Quakers; all lightsabers will be is sticks. I'm sure that what will probably draw amany of them that come(star wars fans excluded) is semi-fast paced gun play.

Disclaimer: This is all semi-educated speculation as far as what will make JKII a particular attraction for other communities, based on conversations with various Quake 3 players and some UT guys.
:p

[The Wanderer]

Hi, I haven't posted here in a good long while. First off, I don't really give a good godamn what the "quakers" do or do not like in their games. this is Jedi Outcast, not Quake 3.

Second... as skillfull as lightsaber battles may have been in JK1, they were NOT lightsaber duels. they did not feel like lightsaber duels. I don't care how skillful it may have been, the plain fact of the matter is that people WANT a lightsaber duel like something straight out of the Empire Strikes back, or even Episode 1, slow pace and all. It's a Star Wars game, and I think that the people who decide to buy this game (NOT Quake) want to feel like they are in a star wars movie, not like they're in the middle of "Glow-stick-joust adventures" And if that means you can't run 250 mph sideways, fine by me and everyone else who is sick of that sort of thing. Believe it or not, some people DON'T like hyper-fast gameplay. Why tailer this game to hardcore quakers, when they're just going to go off and play quake, or whatever the latest shooter is instead of JK2 anyway?

What exactly is wrong with slower gameplay? and what exactly is wrong with the duels being more "movielike"? people around here say movielike as if it were an insult, which baffles me. The game IS based on a movie after all.


P.S. it's a shame, and a bad sign that blocking isn't in some way manual.

[StarScrap]

Originally posted by [eVe]DeathBoLT

No I don't mean reduced force speed, I mean no-force speed, as there couldn't be force speed if you were to impose the neccessary settings to get movie-like game play.



I beleive the point of advanced saber control was not to "force" people to play in only movie-style saber battles, with a little bit of slow-paced guns, but to ALLOW people to play in movie-style saber battles, OR with fast-paced guns. You seem to think that if people could use force speed to easily defeat a person who was foolishly not using force speed to try for a movie-style battle, that they would put on force speed and just kill the other guy like he was a gnat. However, even in JK, people often decided to go to a secluded part of the map and play NF sabers. And there were also plenty of games dedicated to NF sabers, though they often palled after a while due to the lack of movie-style battles.

Anyway, my point is that slowing the pace of the game for saber battles need not slow it for the rest of the ways of playing, due to server settings.

[StarScrap]

OHHH!!! I'm a PADAWAN!!!:saberb: :saberg: :saberr: :duel: :lsduel: :syoda: :slsaber: :dsaber:

[NeJJa]

I think many people from the original jedi knight liked to turn saber battles into actual star wars roleplaying, good vs evil battles etc. The players who concentrated on becoming better at all aspects of the game usually looked on these guys like they were idiots, and in my opinion a lot of them were. However, the people who played in the 'RPG' style normally had a ton of fun doing it, even though they got dominated by people who used the most effective tactics to win. The majority of these players (DBZ_SSJGOHAN4SS, DaRK_EviLJEDI, etc.) are going to be pulling for the cinematic style lightsaber duels, when in reality, withing a few months of the games release the most effective moves/combos will have been figured out.
As for saber being the most important aspect, I think there is no doubt that in the original JK the main focus of the game, and what set it apart, was it's physics in NF games, and the use of force powers in FF games. Most people who played NF sabers exclusively were considered 'newbies' by the upper echelon of JK players no matter what there sabering skill level was.
Do i have a point? no.
Was this interesting and semi-on topic? mabye.
:jawa

[DeathBoLT]

Hi, I haven't posted here in a good long while. First off, I don't really give a good godamn what the "quakers" do or do not like in their games. this is Jedi Outcast, not Quake 3.

I think the point of making games is to make money(hey, you've got to pay the bills), and you want a game that will appeal to the group of people that are more likely to purchase it. Star Wars or not, people used to playing to a Rogue Spear type game aren't going to be more likely to pickup a game that uses the Quake 3 engine than those who actually play the Quake 3.

Second... as skillfull as lightsaber battles may have been in JK1, they were NOT lightsaber duels.
If both people wanted to play movie-like lightsaber duels, they could do it. It was up to you and your opponent to not use tactics to win rather than play movies.

the plain fact of the matter is that people WANT a lightsaber duel like something straight out of the Empire Strikes back, or even Episode 1, slow pace and all.
Again, both people could slow down to the point where they could engage in movie-like duels. If the majority you ran into didn't take always run off, and not role-play and engage in movie-like duels, the majority that you ran into obviously did not want movie-style duels. There was nothing stoping them from playing movie-like.

Why tailer this game to hardcore quakers, when they're just going to go off and play quake, or whatever the latest shooter is instead of JK2 anyway?
Why tailor to RPGers and impose the role-playing movie-style duels on everyone else? In JK, there was nothing stopping two people from having movie style duels if both people wanted to have movie-style duels. You're going to draw people to the game from many categories if you offer a strong first person shooter with force and lightsabers. Fast pace or not, people can simply slow down and engage in movie style duels, assuming both people want to. If the other guy wants to play to win, let him. Go find someone else to roleplay with you.

[DeathBoLT]

I beleive the point of advanced saber control was not to "force" people to play in only movie-style saber battles, with a little bit of slow-paced guns, but to ALLOW people to play in movie-style saber battles, OR with fast-paced guns.

I suppose I gave the people the wrong idea as far as what I think abotu advanced saber control. I just meant to get across that simple saber controls wouldn't kill the game, and that reducing movement speeds to those neccessary to impose everyone to fight movie-style would kill force and gun play. Advanced saber controls aren't really a concern of mine.. movement speeds is more what im concerned with.

You seem to think that if people could use force speed to easily defeat a person who was foolishly not using force speed to try for a movie-style battle, that they would put on force speed and just kill the other guy like he was a gnat.
Heh, could you re-write this particular part? :)

However, even in JK, people often decided to go to a secluded part of the map and play NF sabers. And there were also plenty of games dedicated to NF sabers, though they often palled after a while due to the lack of movie-style battles.
In JK, the typicall force and no force sabering maps,BGJ FF was a full-map type game. No one could run off to a secluded part. Simply because you always knew what everyone was doing(map + seeing) and there wasn't a single part of the map that you couldnt reach in mere seconds courtesy of the amazing jumps, etc. that could be achieved using the curves in the map as ramps while you used 4-star speed and jump. Even the very top part of the ship.