View Full Version : If there is no seeing, what about balancing "mind trick."

02-06-2002, 01:34 PM
It might be a little late to think this up, but we have not yet had confirmation of seeing in JK2, and we know that mind trick will work much the same way as persuasion.

It depends a lot on duration and force cost, but it sounds like this could imbalance the game. I guess it would also end up depending on how much of a signature you could actually see (think of the blue sparkles from persuasion in JK).

You could end up having a bunch of invisible jedi running around the server trying to find eachother to kill hehe.

Just a though, and does anyone know if blinding is confirmed? That would be a another problem.

02-06-2002, 02:22 PM
I dont know about blinding, but I know that there is seeing (altough It may be called sight)
Im not sure how Itll work though

02-06-2002, 02:29 PM
<font color=cbcbff> Yes, I certainly hope they make it a little easier to survive without using the dark side. Dark sickly outweighed Light in Jedi Knight. A simple neutral power countered half of the light side capabilities. Grip picked you up and stopped you without any way to counter it, aside from force jumping out of the way of lightsaber swings, in which case you still remained immobile and often hurt yourself. Destruct took away your shields and knocked you into walls often causing self-kill. Light had one single advantage over dark, and it was only useful in guns. Absorb could counter pull. But even so, with all of the Dark side's overpowering strengths the light side was very difficult to win with in guns, also, and I was very good with it.

02-06-2002, 02:37 PM
Are you sure seeing/site has been confirmed? Can some one please post a link or quote something official, even a review would suffice.

02-06-2002, 02:59 PM
We havent been told about all the force powers. We havent been told about all the enemies in JK2 either. Im sure we'll find out about it all soon.........especially with the trailer on Friday :)

02-06-2002, 03:07 PM
Good lord, if Mins Trick really does make you invisibnle there had BETTER be a counter for it!

BTW, Persuasion was too powerful in the original. If you werre using it, your sabre blows could not be blocked even if the other person was using 'Seeing' to see you, which I assume was a bug.

02-06-2002, 03:24 PM
<font color=cbcbff> What? That's not true, persuasion has no effect on your lightsaber.

02-06-2002, 03:59 PM
Hey WD_Torment, digl is right.

I read somewhere for sure there will be a Force power called Force Sight. I imagine it's the same as JK but they aren't going to have a map in JK2, Raven and LA confirmed that.

02-06-2002, 05:13 PM
I think the mind trick will be awesome in single player, but I would think that in MP they would make it so that it has a very high force cost, so you can only do it every so often, and you'd be sacrificing your ability to use other force powers. (Kinda like the personal cloaking device in EF)

02-07-2002, 05:32 AM
If I correctly understood Mind Trick in multiplayer works in this manner:

- Lasts for a few seconds (5?);
- Works on a specific target (so not invisible for all players);
- Its effect vanishes if you hurt the victim (so unless you succeed to kill your victim, he could react then).

If I'm right I don't think a counter is strictly needed. This power is very useful but not overpowered. I'm much more worried about Grip!

In JK I think that Force Powers were very unbalanced. Dark powers were cheap and very effective. Light powers were also useful, but too expansive and too easy counterable. A dark Jedi could simply hold Force Seeing on and not worry about Persuasion or Blinding, the only nearly offensive Light Powers. Light Jedis could only fight with their sabre, Dark Jedis could simply constantly flee and kill from distance.

02-07-2002, 05:41 AM
hehe! :)
that's what I did...

but Force Seeing all the time has one disadvantage...the sound!

If you played 1 on 1 the other player could here you...if you have been waiting round the corner!

02-07-2002, 12:57 PM
it wouldn't matter, because you could see them on the map anyways, with the overlay map and force seeing on.

02-07-2002, 02:11 PM
Excuse me, but I am right about JK persuasion. I tested it a thousand times against both computer and human opponents.

If you were invisible with persuasion your blows could NOT be blocked whether you could be seen or not.

I'm glad it has been de-powered.

02-07-2002, 04:24 PM
Brett Tosti said in XGR.com radio interview (http://www.xgr.com/article.php?article=2384) that there will be Force seeing(through walls), but he only spoke about MP Force powers... This might be specifically there because of Jedi Mind Tricks making your opponent invisible.

02-07-2002, 05:19 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the Multiplayer Force Powers will be much different from the Single Player, for balance. The Weapons might be the same way. In case this hasn't been mentioned.

02-07-2002, 06:34 PM
What makes you think that the Jedi Mind Trick will be a force power in multiplayer? It obviously can't be, you can't press a button and have your opponent at their desk suddenly loose attention of what's happening...

02-07-2002, 06:49 PM
Ummm because its confirmed that Mind trick will make the user invisible much like persuasion in JK.

dIE suxx0r k thnx byE pwned!

02-07-2002, 10:27 PM
I disagree, I think the sides of the force were quite well balanced in JK (at least on level 7 and 8).

On the lower levels (like 4-5) it might be said that one side had an advantage, but as I see it, most people didn't play with those settings.

Every power had a counter and most had multiple counters, and every power had useful applications, you just had to learn how to use them. I'm sure the same will be true of JK2.

However, when I don't see my favorite force powers and weapons, I may just have to get my head back into editing.
; )

Incidentally, a force "confuse" type of power could be done thusly:

A targetted player's screen gets all blurry and the camera spins around, making it hard for him to see what's going on (like he sees stuff that isn't there for everyone else). Sort of like a modification of blinding. But whatever...


02-08-2002, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
I disagree, I think the sides of the force were quite well balanced in JK (at least on level 7 and 8).
Every power had a counter and most had multiple counters, and every power had useful applications, you just had to learn how to use them. I'm sure the same will be true of JK2.

I agree, every power was useful and had multiple counters, but:
- Dark powers made damage, were cheap while their counters (absorb - but only partially - and protection) were expansive
- Light powers only helped you to survive, were expansive and their counters (when necessary; heal, absorb and protection didn't harm the others) were extremely cheap (1 power: force seeing)

Anyway, if persuasion really makes you unblockable (I have to test it to believe) it woul be a great help...

02-08-2002, 06:34 AM
In jedikinght it was like invincibility, but in outcast the interviews sound as though it will be

Mind Tricks
The Force can exert a powerful influence over the weak minded. A Jedi Mind Trick can be used to outwit opponents in verbal negotiations or to make them see or hear things that aren't there. Mind Trick is a useful, neutral Force power that is often used in Jedi stealth operations where the goal is to avoid detection and confrontation with the enemy. At its highest level, Mind Trick can even turn a foe into an ally to assist the Jedi in combat.

So their you have it, its not invincibility it will be more on the way ut was used un ohantom menace and the movies. This power will definetely wont work in multiplayer at least against other jedi, you cannot mind trick them.
The powers will be more movie like, and not as clusmy or as sporadic as your use to in jedi knight.
Besides as we know using the force requires concentration and practice, getting better from more practice, so im sure they wont make it where you can use all the powers at the same time, while jumping running and such. Example could you stand someone gripping you, then hacking and slahing you at the same time while your in the air, no, Im sure most of us would agree that it should require some more concentration for some of those moves like the user keeping within a certain radius, etc. dont missunderstand me, the person will have to have plenty exp, to concentrate on a move like that.
No one weve seen in the movies have had that much concentration, except maybe the emperor and vadar in his fight as cloud city. Even yoda had to concentrate on lifting the ship, and nothing else.
I know this may sound like rambling to most,, but some of you understand what i mean.

Raven and Lucasarts will balance it out and it wil be a great game.