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View Full Version : New info. on JK2: JO!


mariners2001
02-12-2002, 09:13 PM
Well...I sent a private message to Chang Khan of Raven Software and I got this as a response.....Enjoy!


I originally asked in January:
1) Will fists be an option for a weapon? For example, if you are stripped of all weapons will you be able to fight without the force?
2) Will the concussion rifle or rail detonator be returning?
3) How will Force Speed be approached? Will it be like Jedi Knight 1 or be when you are moving normally but everything around is moving slower. That would be coolest in my opinion.
4) THE MOST WANTED ANSWER: Will there be a demo, man? Everyone's hyped about the game and just the smallest of demos would be of much appreciation. If so, do you have a date set, soon?


Chang replied:
1) Nope, they decided to go with the stun baton.
2) Not exactly, though there are a couple weapons that are *somewhat* similar.
3) The latter in SP, the former in MP.
4) Totally up to LucasArts. Personally, I hope not because it takes a lot of work to get a demo together when, at this point, it would be a lot easier to just finish the game and get it out the door...

******************************************


Well...the only "real" new information is about force speed, since the fists and weapons questions were handled in the FAQ. Doesn't sound good about the demo :( but I'd rather have a bug-free full game come March.


Interesting about force speed. I think that's awesome! In SP, everyone around you slows down, though you walk the same. That will be so cool!

BTW - Thanks a lot Chang!!

The Truthful Liar
02-12-2002, 09:27 PM
...w00t! - *nuff said*




...w00t! :D sounds like fun ;)

Eternity
02-12-2002, 09:28 PM
Nah, the demo info sounds fine. It's totally up to LucasArts, and they are all about sales over there--demo promotes sales.

COME ON, you cold-hearted malicious executives at LucasArts, DO YOUR THING.

digl
02-12-2002, 09:29 PM
Good work mariners
I think this is the first time they confirm matrix like force speed for sp

matt--
02-12-2002, 09:30 PM
hmmm. Bullet time?

ChangKhan...can we have a confirmation?
I'm reluctant to believe everything I read.

Wacky_Baccy
02-12-2002, 09:31 PM
OMG! WOW!

If I'd have known he was that willing to answer questions, I'd have asked some more popular ones (and not just ones that I was bothered about) when I PMed him a couple of days ago...

Damn.

"4) Totally up to LucasArts. Personally, I hope not because it takes a lot of work to get a demo together when, at this point, it would be a lot easier to just finish the game and get it out the door..."

So it isn't finished yet... okay then, I'll happily forfeit a demo for solid and practically bug-free full version :D

Thanks for the info, mariners + Chang :)

mariners2001
02-12-2002, 09:43 PM
ChangKhan...can we have a confirmation?

Trust me, it's real. I'd confirm it, but I don't know of a way besides copy-pasting.

JaG|Kaiser
02-12-2002, 09:49 PM
I wonder what the replacements for the rail detonator and concussion rifle will be. :confused:

GUNNER
02-12-2002, 09:51 PM
If I saw it posted in blood I might beleive ya.:rolleyes:

dazilla
02-12-2002, 09:52 PM
Wow! That bullet time thing for SP is exactly what I wanted!!!
Btw, as for the concussion rifle/rail detonator, I really liked those weapons because that was pretty much the only way to defeat an AT-ST...let's hope they make sure to give us another weapon to defeat the AT-ST. Of course, it would be nice if the GHOUL2 system worked with AT-ST's as well and we could chop off their legs! :D

bsbuckeye21
02-12-2002, 09:52 PM
IMO, the force speed couldn't be any better than what we have now.

Thank's for posting the reply, mariners2001!

JPMaximilian
02-12-2002, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by mariners2001
Totally up to LucasArts. Personally, I hope not because it takes a lot of work to get a demo together when, at this point, it would be a lot easier to just finish the game and get it out the door...

I like this answer, I'd rather have the game than a demo. :)

Moses
02-12-2002, 09:58 PM
Of course, it would be nice if the GHOUL2 system worked with AT-ST's as well and we could chop off their legs!

Dazilla, that is the coolest thing you've ever said! Now it probably won't happen and you would die trying even if it was possible...but it is a nice idea. I particularly like the force speed this way.

let's hope they make sure to give us another weapon to defeat the AT-ST

Rocket Launcher...:rolleyes:

mariners2001
02-12-2002, 09:59 PM
If I saw it posted in blood I might beleive ya.

Uhhh...I'll try to, but it won't be pretty. :D

dazilla
02-12-2002, 10:08 PM
I think the missile launcher will probably take over that function...but using inventive tricks would be very nice...you know, if LEC programmed some secret mini-games into it that would enable you to force jump on the AT-ST, open the hatch, kill the guy inside, and then take over the AT-ST...wow...YOU WOULD BE INVINCIBLE!!!

Now just to crouch and get into that grate.

DeathBoLT
02-13-2002, 12:34 AM
Will the concussion rifle or rail detonator be returning?
Not exactly, though there are a couple weapons that are *somewhat* similar.

im sure the replacements will work fine.. i just hope raven keeps in mind the neccessity of a weapon that fires a projectile at speeds simliar to that of a conc, due to force speed(assuming force speed speed is the same as jk).

rocket launcher projectile speeds are too slow for jk speed force speed.

Sturmgewehr
02-13-2002, 01:00 AM
I hated JK's Force Speed. Saber Matches turned into Marathons. After you hit someone once, they'd force speed away to find health. So you'd have to Force Speed around chasing them, getting one chance to kill them when their Force Speed ran out and you caught up to them just before they hit Force Speed again. It was annoying (especially with 4 stars), in my experience anyways.

I was hoping for just a quick burst of Speed, perhaps a seconds worth of increased speed instead of sustained transonic running.

Moses
02-13-2002, 01:02 AM
Actually (and I know this is not what you are getting at Deathbolt, but I thought I would branch off) if Force Speed is going to slow everything else down in SP, I bet it will last for a shorter period of time. Oh! And do you think that level 1,2,3 of Force Speed are going to vary in the fact that it slows down the enemies more or the effect lasts longer?

ZeroXcape
02-13-2002, 01:04 AM
Matrix like SP? ......... w00t

StephenG
02-13-2002, 01:13 AM
Lucasarts had better release a demo.

Lt. Durden
02-13-2002, 01:21 AM
I would think that more stars would equal more time in slowmo-force speed. Wow! This is exactly what I wanted. Thank you RAVEN! You rule!

GonkH8er
02-13-2002, 01:22 AM
Bullet time Gonk-slaying fest......... mmmMMMMmmmMMMM!


Tastes like burning!

Ham Yoyo
02-13-2002, 01:26 AM
I'll happily forfeit a demo for solid and practically bug-free full version in less time. The demo would delay the release of the full game which is what I want the most.

mariners2001
02-13-2002, 01:32 AM
Bullet time Gonk-slaying fest......... mmmMMMMmmmMMMM!

No, I don't think it'll be like "bullet time." In my question I asked if it would make others around you slow down and you move at normal speed, so you actually would be moving faster than the opponent. "Bullet Time" made everything slow down including you, didn't it? Tell me if I'm wrong, but that's how I took the info.

mariners2001
02-13-2002, 01:35 AM
I'll happily forfeit a demo for solid and practically bug-free full version in less time. The demo would delay the release of the full game which is what I want the most.

What I'm wondering is why they don't just release the E3 demo but with the new features. It's been said it won't be included in the game and I'd think that'd be easiest on them. What do you guys think?

Wacky_Baccy
02-13-2002, 01:49 AM
No, I don't think it'll be like "bullet time." In my question I asked if it would make others around you slow down and you move at normal speed, so you actually would be moving faster than the opponent. "Bullet Time" made everything slow down including you, didn't it? Tell me if I'm wrong, but that's how I took the info.
That's how I understood it, too, but 'Bullet Time' did briefly cross my mind - the wall-walk probably influenced that, though :D
What I'm wondering is why they don't just release the E3 demo but with the new features. It's been said it won't be included in the game and I'd think that'd be easiest on them. What do you guys think?
That would be excellent, but I don't want them wasting time implementing the new features into the E3 level - if it works on it's own and represents the gameplay fairly well, then I say go for it!

Qel
02-13-2002, 01:52 AM
One word...HOPE!;)

Qel

Darth Lunatic
02-13-2002, 01:58 AM
If a demo is released, how much extra work would be needed to finished the game? A few weeks?

I reckon they forget the demo and finish the game!!!

Brick
02-13-2002, 02:28 AM
I second that motion... I say that playing a demo would take away from the final product. As I've said, I MIGHT play a demo if it didn't include use of the lightsaber. I want that thrill preserved so I can experience it at the same time I get the thrill of playing the game for the first time.

Nemios
02-13-2002, 03:05 AM
I disagree. I want the full game too but if they release a demo, during the more weeks needed to finish the game I would be occupied... drooling in front of the demo!!!

TUS_Tomcat
02-13-2002, 03:49 AM
I dont think implementing the E3 level into the current build of the engine would take that long would it?


Then again, im not a programmer :)



Brick, sorry man but i do think any demo of this game should include use of the lightsaber. See, a demo wouldnt be there for us fanboys to finally be able to play it, but to try and make people buy the game who ARENT as fanboy as we are yet. And the lightsaber is maybe THE most important part of the game so it HAS to be in the demo as it's improved usage (at least, the creators say it's much better, we cant tell without demo) is one of the main selling points of the game...


I guess you could probably just switch to another weapon if you REALLY wanted to :)

Darth Lunatic
02-13-2002, 04:46 AM
A demo will defintely be released. But i would prefer it be released after the game, so they can release the full game earlier!

All you people who are skeptical about this game and want to try a demo first, can wait for the demo till after the game is released.

I'm buying the full version no matter what, I personally don't need a demo to convince me to buy it. I've loved all the games in the series Dark Forces/Jedi Knight/MOTS, and JKO looks like it's gonna be just as good, if not it will be BETTER!!

TUS_Tomcat
02-13-2002, 05:05 AM
hell yeah, i will buy it without reading any review if i must (however if theres a review before release ill read it to get new info :))


As for demo, well, i wouldnt mind one cause i wanna choke and slash some stormies!


But if that would mean getting the full game a week later, uhm, no thanks!

Krak3n
02-13-2002, 05:28 AM
That answer to the demo disapoints me a little, surly releasing a public beta test to get the vewis of the people who are going to buy it will only serve to increase tho's profits Lucas Arts and Raven want so much. They could improve the game to what people want (within reason :D). Like the RTCW public beta test, and the Redfaction one, each developer improved the game to what the people wanted. - people picked up on things even the developers didn't know about, think about it, they have been developing this game for over a year and are used to it, it takes fresh blood to stop the mistakes. :)
c'mon.......this game is gonna be huge, releaseing a demo/public beta can only improve the games profit :D. I'd rather wait fotr the game and get a beta so we can all improve the game and get something that rocks even more then it does already :D

Graphicsgod
02-13-2002, 05:37 AM
After dealing with Raven Software over the years they'er games are either hit or miss (or hit and miss ;) ). So I would prefer a demo before plunking down anything on this game. It might rock or it might not,.. I don't want to find out $60+ dollars later.


Oh and I think LA could put a demo together while Raven works on the game. It's not like they'er making anything worthwhile anyway, might as well put them to good use somehow ;).

nykel007
02-13-2002, 06:57 AM
If a demo delays the release of the game then I don't want one. Better to wait one more month than to wait two.

TUS_Tomcat
02-13-2002, 06:59 AM
if it delays the game by a day and allows me to slice n dice some stormies 3 weeks earlier or something, plz me demo !@?

Belgirion
02-13-2002, 07:30 AM
I don't want a friggin demo I'd rather have the game a few weeks earlier. :evil:

TUS_Tomcat
02-13-2002, 07:32 AM
I want the game yesterday!

:rolleyes:

txa1265
02-13-2002, 08:46 AM
I am completely thrilled about the implementation of Force Speed - I had asked that very question a couple of months ago ... and the answer makes sense - can't do the 'ObiWan effect' (not going to call it bullet-time, as this seems a point of confusion) in MP, but would be nice in SP. So it will be in SP - that is perfect, giving you an advantage that doesn't require extra skill or dexterity to use ... done as in the JK books.

As for the demo ... the posts about a beta are not going to happen - that has been made very clear. As for the demo - let's face it, people wouldn't be here without a strong inclination to play and buy the game. The demo is for those without that inclination. From a marketing standpoint, you want a game to sell hot but not be unpurchasable because it is out of stock everywhere. There (seems to be) considerable interest in this game, enough that it will be a hot seller with a good size 'initial grab'. Getting a demo out to increase that initial grab doesn't seem to make as much sense as getting one out to lengthen the 'buying frenzy' time period ... perhaps start to feed off of the AotC pre-frenzy ... after the movie people will again be looking for same saber action.

I like the idea of using a non-implemented level as a demo - where was that done before? As for a non-saber demo, that is about as likely as them deciding to allow you to choose your own saber color (or appearance model) in SP (picture Luke addressing Kyle about his blue saber while watching Duke Nukem with a yellow saber ;) ) ... not going to happen - the game is an extension of JK, a saber based Jedi game, not of DF, the Star Wars FPS about a former imperial academy officer turned rebel agent. People want saber, saber and more saber.

Mike

Brick
02-13-2002, 09:16 AM
Dumb as a Brick as I may be, even I don't seriously expect that they'd release a demo without the lightsaber. None the less, I wouldn't download the demo even if it WAS released before the game. The temptation is there, of course, but personally, the first time I use a lightsaber in JKII will be when you pick it up around the third level. I've got lots of experience stringing myself along when it comes to anticipating games, and in this case a demo would almost ruin the initial game experience for me. I've played everything with the Q3 engine so far, including stuff in third person, so I know I like that. I love the saber in JK, so I know I'll love it in JKII. Not many questions left. All a demo would do for me personally would be to leave the game as less thrilling the first time I played it.

I completely agree about the reasons for a demo, of course. Selling to those poor souls with doubt is important. I just think there's another way...

:ben: *waves hand casually* "You will all buy the game..."

*the doubters reply* :bored: "We will all buy the game..."

Lord_FinnSon
02-13-2002, 10:47 AM
Oh and I think LA could put a demo together while Raven works on the game. It's not like they'er making anything worthwhile anyway, might as well put them to good use somehow ;).
Actually, it looks like LEC is overseeing sound developing in JK2, because both Julian Kwasneski(sound design/editing) and Clint Bajakian(music editing/additional composing) have worked many years at LEC; also, lets not forget LEC producer Brett Tosti, who works and consults with Raven on the game design, characters, scheduling & budgets, marketing issues, etc. What comes to demo, I also want full game ASAP, but it really depends on LEC like Chang Khan said.

JaG|Kaiser
02-13-2002, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by txa1265
... not going to happen - the game is an extension of JK, a saber based Jedi game, not of DF, the Star Wars FPS about a former imperial academy officer turned rebel agent. People want saber, saber and more saber.


I'm not familiar with your name, and I have no knowledge of your history as a JK player. But I can honestly say that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Let's look at the most active part of the JK community: the competitive players/clans. If you look at these clans, typically each clan had a number of divisions. They included sabers nf, sabers FF, guns nf, guns ff, and ctf nf. Now given, what I know about the competitive community, saberists (nf and FF) represent about 10-20% of the competitive players. Guns nf represent the majority (about 50%), and guns FF at about 20-25%, ctf nf represent the rest. Of course, you have players that cross between guns nf/ff and ctf nf. However, saberists typically stuck to sabers. According to your words, JK was a sabers-based game. About 3/4 of the competitive community did not see it this way. I hardly doubt that the majority will be playing sabers only in JK2.

The problem is that the saber is a novelty weapon. In a FF guns battle, the saber was so worthless that if you brought it out, it was considered a "peace" symbol. I highly doubt that the gunner segments of gamers will embrace it.

Personally, I could care less about a demo. I'll buy the game, either way. A demo will help popularity, no doubt.


On another topic: Does anyone know if the game will include a "Recording" feature? Will we be able to record our games and watch them at a later time? This has been done in T1 and T2, and has helped the popularity of those games IMMENSELY.

CaptainRAVE
02-13-2002, 01:10 PM
Will fists be an option for a weapon? For example, if you are stripped of all weapons will you be able to fight without the force?
Nope, they decided to go with the stun baton.


Im glad about this. The animation with the fists always looked stupid. Many of the great games today e.g. Elite Force and Max Payne, dont have fists and this is a good thing. With JK many people liked to make mods where all weapons were stripped and you had to start with just your fists......This will not be a problem as all they'll have to do is make the lightsaber reacgable with force pull.

Will the concussion rifle or rail detonator be returning?
Not exactly, though there are a couple weapons that are *somewhat* similar.

Im not bothered about this. These weapons were not my favourite and never looked like Star Wars weapons. Im sure many people wont like this, but with the ammount of weapons we've seen so far im sure it will be no problem.

How will Force Speed be approached? Will it be like Jedi Knight 1 or be when you are moving normally but everything around is moving slower. That would be coolest in my opinion.
The latter in SP, the former in MP.

This I am really pleased about. It will be so much fun having everything slow down, but yourself being able to remain at normal speed. This will be good fun, and was something that everyone was looking forward to in max payne. For mp it will also be good. A bullet time system would be pointless as if two people engaged it then they would cancel each other out and normal time would reappear. At least this way we have both the obi-wan and JK feauture.....BUT....which of the two modes of force speed will appear in pure bot matches??

THE MOST WANTED ANSWER: Will there be a demo, man? Everyone's hyped about the game and just the smallest of demos would be of much appreciation. If so, do you have a date set, soon?
Totally up to LucasArts. Personally, I hope not because it takes a lot of work to get a demo together when, at this point, it would be a lot easier to just finish the game and get it out the door...


Im glad their not bothering too much with a demo. Id rather they get the final version done. Eventually there will be a demo as this is a key marketing strategy plan, but maybe they'll bring it out after the game...

I enjoyed reading these, even if we had an idea of them already.....happy reading people :D

thrEEpaGe
02-13-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by CaptainRAVE


A bullet time system would be pointless as if two people engaged it then they would cancel each other out and normal time would reappear.




bullet time is impossible in multiplayer...think about it...if one person slows down time, how would gameplay for everyone else continue at regular time?

if a person engaged bullet time, everyone would be slowed down, and the game would be at slow down speed almost all the time....it would suck....

digl
02-13-2002, 02:19 PM
I dont think you should even think of that level as being the official game demo
the E3 demo was probably only a few rooms they put together, to show off what they were doing, to show it
not to be played by anyone except the LEC representative
It doesnt make sense releasing that for the public (which is also really old, and probably doesnt take advantage of the new scripting system and other stuff)
If they release a demo (which I think they will, because LEC will want it) It will be a level of the game if its released before the game, and It could eventually be a level not related to the story, If they release it after the game, with time to work on it, without the pressure of the march date to finish the game

txa1265
02-13-2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by JaG|Kaiser


I'm not familiar with your name, and I have no knowledge of your history as a JK player. But I can honestly say that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Let's look at the most active part of the JK community: the competitive players/clans. <snip>

The problem is that the saber is a novelty weapon. In a FF guns battle, the saber was so worthless that if you brought it out, it was considered a "peace" symbol. I highly doubt that the gunner segments of gamers will embrace it.


The reason you don't know my name is that my history as a JK player is between me adn my computer ;)

Seriously, I see your point, but what I was saying was that the saber is going to be the fascination with the game *in the non-established fan market* - which is probably ~75% of who will end up buying this game. I also have no idea of the ratio of SP to MP for JK / MotS ... but again I'd assume that it was weighted heavily to SP. Personally, I hated having to step back from my saber after I got it in JK ... but the game is done in such a way that it is impossible otherwise ... not to mention that unless (as someone mentioned elsewhere) you could cut the legs off of a AT-ST, you *will* need non-saber weapons ...

Mike

TUS_Tomcat
02-13-2002, 03:20 PM
you can cut the AT-ST in the MOTS demo?!

Just give it a few slices and make sure it shows aprks and it will go down...

Hacking a leg off would be awesome but somehow i just dont think it will be in there

CaptainRAVE
02-13-2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by thrEEpaGe



bullet time is impossible in multiplayer...think about it...if one person slows down time, how would gameplay for everyone else continue at regular time?

if a person engaged bullet time, everyone would be slowed down, and the game would be at slow down speed almost all the time....it would suck....

Well everyone else would see him move super quick. Thats not the difficult part, the difficult part is when a few people use it. It would create too much lag, but in time it will be possible :D

TUS_Tomcat
02-13-2002, 03:28 PM
I was thinking that too at first, but, if everyone else would start moving slower on your comp, it wouldnt match anymore? you know, theyd be slower on your comp and then it would get mixed up, theyd be lagging behind...

digl
02-13-2002, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by CaptainRAVE


Well everyone else would see him move super quick. Thats not the difficult part, the difficult part is when a few people use it. It would create too much lag, but in time it will be possible :D

Its not possible
if the rest of the people see him move super quick, then they are moving at normal speed, and if they are moving at normal speed how will the speed user see them moving slow?

DeathBoLT
02-13-2002, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Sturmgewehr
I hated JK's Force Speed. Saber Matches turned into Marathons. After you hit someone once, they'd force speed away to find health. So you'd have to Force Speed around chasing them, getting one chance to kill them when their Force Speed ran out and you caught up to them just before they hit Force Speed again. It was annoying (especially with 4 stars), in my experience anyways.

I was hoping for just a quick burst of Speed, perhaps a seconds worth of increased speed instead of sustained transonic running.

Sturmgewehr, Ill repost what I posted on the clan recruiting board when describing how force speed and force jump should be played in JK. None of this stuff about force speed being a marathon or whatever.

you will find out that you're playing a incredibly fast paced game, where height and distance present no obstacle to reaching your destination. The shortcuts opened up by speed/jump* are amazing. Utilizing curves and bumps on the floors/walls of map, you are able to virtually fly using them as ramps. In the most popular sabers level, Battleground Jedi, there isn't a part that you cannot reach in a second, through speed-jump force use. You can dance around using the whole level as for cover, virtually leaping from behind one barrier to another across the map in mere seconds competely evading enemy fire.

*=Speed/Jump... using Force Speed and Force Jump to basically do running jumps at mach 4 :P

Vagabond
02-14-2002, 12:12 AM
I would prefer that Force Speed be identical in both SP and MP. Therefore, I would rather that SP Force Speed be the MP version. *sigh* It's times like this that I wish The Matrix or Max Payne had never been made.

digl
02-14-2002, 12:18 AM
Dont worry Vag, you could ask someone to do a mod for that, I dont think that would be too hard

Brick
02-14-2002, 12:41 AM
I really llike the idea of things slowing down around me in SP. It's more how a Jedi sees it.

Vagabond
02-14-2002, 09:48 AM
What evidence do you have to support that statement? From the only visual evidence we have of Force Speed in The Phantom Menace, all it allowed Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan to do is to propel themselves away from the Destroyer Droids at an incredible rate. There is no evidence that it produced any temporal effect that would allow them to perform an increased number of actions per second.

txa1265
02-14-2002, 09:52 AM
The evidence is the JK books ... it describes in detail how Kyle experienced Force Speed - and it is *exactly* like the way it is being done (at least being described) for SP.

Mike

Vagabond
02-14-2002, 10:03 AM
As you know, the Expanded Universe takes a back seat to George's interpretation of how his universe works. If what you suggest were true, then Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan could have easily defeated the Destroyer Droids by using Force Speed. But they didn't, which suggests that there is no temporal effect.

The thing is that the familiar use of Force Speed was perfect, in my opinion, and this new bullet-time-ish Force Speed smells too much like a Matrix or Max Payne copy-cat.

Plus, it's not consistent with MP, which I feel is very important.

TUS_Tomcat
02-14-2002, 10:11 AM
books, blah!


The movies are where it's at :)


but i must admit i did lik ethe Thrawn Trilogy :D

DeathBoLT
02-14-2002, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Vagabond
As you know, the Expanded Universe takes a back seat to George's interpretation of how his universe works. If what you suggest were true, then Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan could have easily defeated the Destroyer Droids by using Force Speed. But they didn't, which suggests that there is no temporal effect.

The thing is that the familiar use of Force Speed was perfect, in my opinion, and this new bullet-time-ish Force Speed smells too much like a Matrix or Max Payne copy-cat.

Plus, it's not consistent with MP, which I feel is very important.

read my post on 'unique things about jk' in reference to your reply tha concerns temporal effects. :)

bsbuckeye21
02-14-2002, 03:30 PM
Just think about it Vag. If you're moving quickly, everything else would appear to be slow; it's all relative. The reasons the movies didn't show this is that they weren't taken from the Jedi's POV, methinks.

I don't think it'll be exactly like Max Payne or the Matrix either. In MP, the only think that changed was that the world slowed, but somehow Max could move his aim amazing fast. With JO, everything will be the same for the character, but the reaction speed of the oponents will be slow, not you.

I think it's the best way to go for both SP and MP.

TUS_Tomcat
02-14-2002, 03:37 PM
it is impossible for MP

Pedro The Hutt
02-14-2002, 07:50 PM
hmm.. now just to give my opinion on this... if not rather late(altough I've noticed more people thinking the same about this in this thread).. I don't like that idea for Force Speed all that much in SP.. I mean the force power is named Force SPEED after all.. you're supposed to dash around like a rocket.. and NOT some Max Payne immitation where everything around you slows down while you're the only thing moving around decently. I want to get some sensation of increased speed.. not the opposite where everything but you is sluggish.

Vagabond
02-14-2002, 08:47 PM
Exactly, Pedro The Hutt.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume that there is a temporal effect, and things do slow down during Force Speed, while to the Jedi time seems normal.

Even if this were true, which is still debatable, consistency demands that Force Speed be implemented the same in both SP and MP. Having two completely different implementations of Force Speed is bizarre. Further, a valid argument can be made that having different Force Speeds will detract from MP because the Force Speed skill, or lack thereof, that has been learned in SP, will not transfer to MP.

Let's face it - the Force Speed in SP is going to be easy compared to mastering Force Speed in MP. Like one of my favorite sayings goes:

If you're gonna run with the big dogs, you can't pee like a puppy.

bsbuckeye21
02-17-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by TUS_Tomcat
it is impossible for MP

I wouldn't say impossible. It could work like this: Someone enables force speed (SP version) and everyone else that didn't have force speed enabled would be trapped in molasses. (How the heck to do you spell that? :)) If you ask me, that would fall under aggrivating rather than fun. You'd almost be force to enable force speed then. Thank you Raven!

Broode
02-18-2002, 04:56 AM
Consistency between SP and MP is NOT that important. Despite what you would like to believe, a good SP campaign is NOT just training for MP; its a completely different experience, like a good book or movie, with story and emotions and establishment of character. MP is like a game of football/soccer/whatever. The aim is to score as many points as you can, just to beat your opponent. Some people are still stuck back in DOOM times, trying to combine the genres. IT JUST DOESNT WORK.

For the same reason, I see consitency between SP and MP as being not very important at all. For a very long time, I have wondered why developers didn't make things different in SP and MP, because some things only worked well in SP. Take the repeater in JK for example. Good in SP, almost completely usless in MP. It would make sence to alter the gun for MP, or even replace it entirely, but they didn't. Finally, someone is proposing to seperate SP and MP once and for all, and instantly you have these conservatists trying to combine them again.

On a different note, it is possible to have slow mo Force Speed in MP, but it would cause a rip in the space-time continuum as time slows down for one person but not for anyone else that would ultimately destroy the universe.

Or not.

Redwing
02-18-2002, 05:09 AM
I can give a rather funny example of this situation. Using the slowmo cheat in MotS and JK. If you turned it on in SP, and never turned it off, you'd experience that effect in MP as well. You would move in slow motion, and perceive your opponent as moving in slow motion, but your opponent would perceive you as moving at normal speed, and he would be moving at normal speed as well. My brain is too tired to work out how this happens, but I know that my opponent would "jump" around the map as if teleporting at times. I assume the reason he couldn't tell I was in slowmo was because it translated as mere lag for him. When I told him, what I was doing, he left, turned on slowmo and rejoined (upon which he stopped "lagging").

It was a pretty funny experience. :D

Vagabond
02-18-2002, 01:51 PM
Broode, you are entitled to your opinion, and make no mistake - what you have expressed is only that - an opinion. While your personal feeling is that consistency is unimportant, you must accept that your sentiment is not universal.

Whether it's SP or MP, I personally strive for consistency. As an example, if in the SP game the villain's hair is blonde, but in the MP his hair is black, then I would say that this subtle detail matters for consistency's sake. My thoughts on a consistent Force Speed in SP and MP is no different. I equally value both the SP and MP games - not merely the SP game, as appears to be the case with you; correct me if I'm wrong. And while I agree with you that an engrossing and rich SP game is extremely satisfying, so also would I argue that competing in that same, exciting universe in the MP game is just as enjoyable.

On a side note, the repeater was incredibly effective in MP. A great way to kill a Jedi: pelt him with the secondary fire from the repeater...he can block one of the shots, but not all three.

In any event, I'm going to issue you an Official Warning <sup>TM</sup>. We encourage heated debate in these forums, but at the same time expect everyone to show respect and courtesy to the other members of these forums - even the people you're debating with. This includes no name-calling, labeling or stereotyping people. Your statement "...you have these conservatists trying to...", comes dangerously close to violating these standards. What you label as "conservativist", is in reality merely someone who doesn't share your opinion, which can be offensive to the people you have labeled. A less offensive way to phrase your statement would be, "...you have people trying to..." Argue your points with logic and information, not veiled or overt insults. If you cannot follow these instructions, then you should discontinue posting in these forums.

Good day.

ps2maddenman
02-18-2002, 02:00 PM
"As you know, the Expanded Universe takes a back seat to George's interpretation of how his universe works. If what you suggest were true, then Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan could have easily defeated the Destroyer Droids by using Force Speed. But they didn't, which suggests that there is no temporal effect. "


Avery interesting point, but wouldn't it be prudent to not completely dismiss this idea, could there be other factors at work? If the temporal effect was true, then how could Qui Gon and Obi-Wan have disabled the Droidekas? Didn't they have Shield generators? Whether time was slowed or not they would still have this, which brings up this interesting question, since the SP game will feature this, will it matter against enemies/ships with shields (except for dodging thier fire of course)? The shield would still be there so why would it matter?

Dan12R
02-18-2002, 02:10 PM
I do have to say, part of me wants a demo now because I want to be sure my computer can handle it. But since I'm sure, I'll be buying the game anyways, might as well get the full game out now so I don't have to waste my time downloading all 100 someMB of the demo.

Vagabond
02-18-2002, 02:19 PM
ps2maddenman, I'm not entirely certain about this, but I believe that I read somewhere that the destroyer droids only have shields on their front side. Again, this may be inaccurate and the shields may fully enclose them. However, if it is only on the front side, then a Jedi could use Force Speed to run around the back side and finish them off.

If they are fully enclosed by shields, one would still think that a lightsaber, which is capable of turning a blast door into slag, could make fairly short work of the shields on a destroyer droid. The Force Speed using Jedi would still have to stay behind the destroyer droid to keep from harms way, but one would think this would be easily accomplished for the Force-enhanced reflexes of a Jedi.

ps2maddenman
02-18-2002, 03:07 PM
Vegabond, since we are using the movie as "canon" watch when Obi-wan and Qui Gon deflect the blaster bolts on the Destroyer Droids, the shields are a full circle around thier bodies, also if you read here (http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/droideka/index.html) at starwars.com, you can read "The destroyer droid can completely envelope itself in a globe of protective energy via its compact deflector shield generators. " so that answers both of us from an official source, that is why Obi-Wan and Qui Gon didn't mess with them (try to run around back/etc). I have never read of a lightsaber being able to penetrate a deflector shield. In fact I vaguely remember someone in one of the novels trying to kill an assasin droid but instead thier lightsaber shorted out because the droid had a deflector shield, I think it was the IG88 story in Tales of the Bounty Hunters, but I am non completely sure (but this is from the novels which are "non-canon", but then again, so is this game.)

:cool:

Vagabond
02-18-2002, 03:43 PM
ps2maddenman, we may never know the true answer to this question. But the movies do demonstrate that a lightsaber is capable of slashing through the armor of an AT-AT. No small feat.

We also know that the relatively weak blasters on the Naboo starfighter were able to completely overwhelm the shields on a Destroyer Droid, making short work of these otherwise formidable machines.

If one were to compare the armament on a Naboo starfighter against that of a Rebel Alliance Snowspeeder, most would agree that the Snowspeeder's blaster cannons are far more powerful. Thus, one could conclude that a Rebel Snowspeeder would have an easier time dispatching a Destroyer Droid than a Naboo starfighter.

Here's where I'm going with all this:

Lightsaber > AT-AT Armor
AT-AT Armor > Rebel Snowspeeder
Rebel Snowspeeder > Naboo Starfighter
Naboo Starfighter > Destroyer Droid

Using the logical rule of Implication, if the Lightsaber is stronger than the AT-AT Armor, and the AT-AT Armor is stronger than the Rebel Snowspeeder's weapons, and the Rebel Snowspeeder's weapons are stronger than the Naboo Starfighter's weapons, and the Naboo Starfighter's weapons are stronger than the Destroyer Droid's shields, then we have that:

The Lightsaber is stronger than the Destroyer Droid's shields.

wardz
02-18-2002, 04:04 PM
I'd say thats game set and match to the V man...

wardz

CaptainRAVE
02-18-2002, 04:12 PM
But then shields are different to armour ;)..and you also have to deal with the problem of getting the shields without the blasters getting you :(

Renzo
02-18-2002, 04:16 PM
A very good point, Vag. I still have a problem, though. there must be some difference between a lightsaber and a blaster shot. maybe the only difference is speed. i'm not sure.

Speaking of speed. As to force speed (FS), i agree that enemies slowing down will of course not look fast, but i do like the new implementation because i'll be able to utilize FS in a better manner than just running quickly. all movements will now be 'faster'. combat will be easier. and chopping down an enemy jedi will be cake.

some people voiced a concern as to whether or not they'll be able to do amazing jumps using speed/jump. if raven just makes kyle jump farther when in FS, it will all fit together. if to the stormtroopers, kyle looks to move extremely fast, shouldn't he be able to jump farther than a bus? it may look strange to the player, but it makes sense.

please feel free to argue. if you don't understand a word of what i just said, please ask for clarification. for some reason my syntax is funky today.

ps2maddenman
02-18-2002, 04:44 PM
Vegabond, I see where you are going with this and your logic, but you are using a "triangle rule" which in most cases doesn't hold weight because you are comparing apples to oranges.


Example:

Paper beats rock

rock beats scissors

scissors beat paper.

It is a very basic example (crude....I know :) )of how different types of things can offset the balance, once again I agree with your logic, but armor and shields are two completely different things, also, if the lightsabers could penetrate shields then Obi-Wan and Qui Gon wouldn't have ran away from the destroyer droids, but they did, which logic tells us means that their lightsabers could not penetrate the shields, also when Luke cut the underbelly of the ATAT, we don't know that this was the "armor" of the ATAT, in fact we got the idea that the underbelly was weaker than the rest of the ATAT simply because Luke allowed the force to tell him where the "weak" spot on the ATAT is (a non armored achilles heel?), which was a small compartment............either way this is an endless debate, and I think we both agree to disagree. I believe in the Jedi's ability to "slow time" and you don't, fortunately Lucasarts and Raven agree with me and have put this in the game (which I think is going to rock.)


We both have points, but we will never really know unless this is addressed by George Lucas himself.



But to your credit the official site says that a lightsaber can cut through almost anything, except the blade of another lightsaber, so it is the canon that conflicts itself if anything.

;)

sullen
02-18-2002, 04:46 PM
Vagabond:
While I enjoy your arguments immensely, I would ask if you have considered one more possibility in your decision of force speed based on your extrapolation from the movie. Maybe the Jedi simply did not want to waste time “dealing” with the droidekas. I felt that the matter was not one of impossibility, indeed, choosing to see force speed in either way, the Jedi could have dispatched the droids. The point I am trying to make is that both views (force speed is or is not a temporal distortion) is not as relevant to what happens in the movie as would be, say, understanding the situation that the Qui-gon and Obi-wan were in.

Our views are subjective; we do not know what it is to be really fast or really slow without referencing these terms to someone else. I, however, try to see it in a certain light. In my math class, I can come up with the answers fairly quickly. It is just a matter of doing the steps in order, and the answer comes to me. There is, however, a girl who takes considerably long to reach the same answer as I do. Now, for her, she is moving at a “normal” speed, but for me, she is moving slow, for her, I am moving fast. I hope I have been lucid enough to explain the “other side” of the argument. I will not go into consistency in this post, because I feel that the two are separate, yet related issues. I simply have no opinion on the latter issue

Good day

MercenaryI{aos
02-18-2002, 05:12 PM
First of all the force speed is EXACTLY the way I wanted it.
Second, no demo.
My brother's birthday is on April 7th and he will be getting JK2 for his birthday and I'm going to take advantage of that! :laughing:
If it is delayed I'll have to buy myself :( I would, but might as well get it free! And I want to play it ASAP:D.

Vagabond
02-18-2002, 05:33 PM
ps2maddenman, actually nowhere in my conclusion do any of the logical elements of the Implication become recursive. I present a sequential order of arguments, with the parent always being more powerful than the child, and nowhere do I ever argue that a child is more powerful than one of its ancestors. Therefore your "triangle rule" point is invalid.

Personally, I don't think that the distinction between a lightsaber penetrating shields or armor is significant. All a shield does is absorb energy. If the lightsaber generates more energy than the shield can absorb, then the shield will fail. Since a blast door can presumably hold off heavy blaster fire, and yet a lightsaber can turn a blast door to slag, the implication is that a lightsaber generates more than enough energy to overwhelm the relatively weak shields on a Destroyer Droid.

With regard your statement that:

...Luke allowed the force to tell him where the "weak" spot on the ATAT...

...that's a new one to me. Do you have any official sources of information to support this theory? In any event, I feel it's safe to assume that one would require a lightsaber to do what Luke did to that AT-AT. Otherwise Rebel Commandos would be doing exactly what Luke did anytime they encountered an AT-AT, which they clearly were not doing in The Empire Strikes Back. Therefore the argument that a lightsaber is stronger than AT-AT armor is still valid, in my assessment.

But you're right, we could argue this point until the cows come home. To be quite honest, George Lucas probably was more interested in moving the plot along, rather than considering any technical or logical reasons when he decided to have Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan flee the scene using Force Speed.

sullen, prior to the intervention of the Destroyer Droids, the objective of Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan was to gain access to the Viceroy and force him to settle the trade dispute with Naboo. It was only when they escaped into the hangar that they discovered the invasion force. That they did flee seems to imply that they could not defeat the Destroyer Droids with the abilities as their dispossal. If Force Speed had a temporal effect, then one could suppose that they would have been able to defeat the Destroyer Droids and continue with the pursuit of their original objective - to break through the blast doors and force the Trade Federation into a settlement with the Naboo.

Since George had them abandon their pursuit, one can infer all kinds of reasons why. What is clear is that they were no match, so they fled. Plus, as I said previously in this post, George most likely just wanted to move the plot along so he could get Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan down on the planet and hook them up with Jar-Jar, to the delight of millions ;)

Agen
02-18-2002, 05:34 PM
I don't want a demo if it keeps the game back.

MercenaryI{aos
02-18-2002, 05:46 PM
I don't really care of the consistency from SP to Mp because most multiplayer force powers will not be in Sp (9 Mp specific powers).

For the whole JEDI/Armor/Shield thing I believe Qui- Gon and Obi-Wan where growing impatient or sensed reinforcements would come and overwhelm them...
I do believe that with force speed however they could easily defeat a Droideka.
Since Destroyers take thier shields down to move... the Jedi run wait for the droids to follow and double-back and slice when the droids are moving. They could get there and swing fast enough with force speed. There would probably be easier ways to defeat it though.
I think it would be hard to slash through the shield however because the Destroyers always seem to be grouped with at least one other droid. It would be difficult to slice through the shield, deflect DD's blasters and DD2's blasters

My two cents. I have some more in my pocket though!

+Nimbus+
02-18-2002, 05:52 PM
I'm kinda excited about the multiplayer levels, which ones we get and the ones that will become popular and which ones not, but maybe all of them will. I'm looking forward to the Jedi Temple thing on Yavin IV it'd be cool for training if you're in a clan.

bsbuckeye21
02-18-2002, 06:20 PM
Yikes, this has gotten kinda heated.

Oh well, all I care about is that the force speed implementation is exactly how I want it to be, and there's no way it's gonna change. :cool:

(Remember, gameplay > story/reason/whatever )

sullen
02-19-2002, 03:01 AM
vagabond you seem to imply that because force speed is not a temporal effect, then the jedi are powerless to resist the droidekas. I fail to see the reasoning behind this point. I argue that either way the jedi are moving faster than the droidekas can aim, and are therefore unlikely to be hit by their blasters. I merely postulate that it was a waste of time to continue on their present course of action(gaining access to the bridge) and choose to move along.

I also fail to understand your reasoning behind the comparison of weapons/armor. You use a very well thought out, multi-tiered argument, and it would be sound if not for a fact that you bring up yourself.

George lucas.

Your reasoning is sound until you come up against the ideal that maybe Lucas did not reason out the variable such as you have. What I mean to say is that from an Analytical perspective, you’re right, armor and weapons can only get stronger as time develops but Lucas may not have thought of it that way. I am merely agreeing with your last statement. Who can know the mind of the great Lucas?

NoodlyGod
02-19-2002, 04:11 AM
Now I'm once again worried. I really hope the sp speed dealy won't be like bullet time. Why? because my only reference for that effect is Max Payne. Payne was an excellent game and bullet time worked great for guns, but if you were to give Max a light saber, start him 10 feet from an enemy and turn on bullet time, it would take him 30 seconds to reach the enemy. My hope is that they'll keep you at normal speed and slow down everyone else, while adding some sort of cool effect simply for the "cool factor".

Broode
02-19-2002, 04:18 AM
Sorry Vaga, I didn't mean to be inflammatory. I just really want SP and MP finally split up. You are entitled to your own opinion.

Redwing
02-19-2002, 04:21 AM
Yes, that's what Force speed will be. Otherwise it wouldn't be "Force speed" it would be "Force slowmo" or "Force reflex". :D

Naphtali
02-19-2002, 05:36 AM
It would be nice just to give him a quick burst for a couple of seconds