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View Full Version : Unique aspects of JK...that would be nice in JK2


DeathBoLT
02-13-2002, 05:57 PM
- The presence of centripetal force (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31962).

- Force speed + Force Jump combos. The impact of force speed/jump on JK FF's style of movement was tremendous. You could go anywhere on the map that you wanted to in seconds.

beyond force powers and lightsabers, this is all that comes to mind right off the top of my head that should be in JK2..

Kurgan
02-14-2002, 06:16 AM
Multiple paths in the storyline (Dark Side, Light Side), the choice of powers as you went along, all seemed pretty unique to JK in the FPS genre.

Krandell
02-14-2002, 06:48 AM
Just the game being good is a unique aspect to a game these days. Most games are very poor.

txa1265
02-14-2002, 06:58 AM
The sprawling levels ... after all of these replays it still took me as long to do Level 1 (new republic base on Altyr 5) as it did the entire FIRST MISSION (several so-called levels) on MoH:AA... sometimes you felt you would never get to the end ... but that's a good thing ;) Now I look at a game and know I'll be through it before I'm totally involved - I'm in the middle of mission 4 (of 6) after ~3 hours of play on MoH:AA ...

DeathBoLT
02-14-2002, 10:25 PM
any other thoughts?

WD_ToRMeNt
02-15-2002, 12:06 AM
I don't give damn about the SP, but JK's MP is absolutely unique. Most people don't understand the force dynamics and the extremes they can be taken to.

Playing JK FF is like playing chess at mach 2. I'm serious.

To be good in JK FF you need everything to be good in any other FPS and much more.

1) Aim
2) Ability to think ahead of your opponent. Force speed (plus lag) is to fast to aim at where they are, you must be thinking ahead of your opponent to dodge his conc/desctructs and hit him with yours. You must out think him.
3) extreme multi tasking
4) Ability to watch 2d map and 3d screen at the same time
5) Keep a steady count in your mind and time one or more power ups.
6) Lightning fast reflexes
7) Knowleadge of the lag/netcode
8) better then avarage hand-eye coordination to control speed/jump combos

This is what made JK to complex and extreme. Most JKers can't handle the above (and definately not all at the same time) and just stick to NF sabs.

Today I got into a game of BGJ FF FFA... I had 53 kills, and the guy who was in 2nd had only 2...

DeathBoLT
02-15-2002, 09:07 PM
some force powers are simply different styles of guns.. i prefer to focus more on overall gameplay(ie presence of force powers and them actually being very useful in game, the presence of lightsabers that are useful in game) and movement rather than worry over if destruction(sort of a gun) is present or not or if grip has the same function or not, etc.

DeathBoLT
02-16-2002, 03:15 AM
this post is perfectly relevant to jk2.. im not posting it for nostaliga's sake, i want raven to know what was important in jk and probably should be included in jk2.

please move it back :\

WD_ToRMeNt
02-16-2002, 09:17 AM
I agree.

JPMaximilian
02-16-2002, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt
Today I got into a game of BGJ FF FFA... I had 53 kills, and the guy who was in 2nd had only 2...

Sounds like you're deadly......

WD_ToRMeNt
02-16-2002, 07:11 PM
Hehe VERY. One of my close friends calls me "a full force monter" hehe.

This is a differant game but...

http://www.geocities.com/WD_Savage/two.jpg

StormHammer
02-22-2002, 09:39 AM
As this thread is now more JK2 related (thanks DeathBolT), it is being taken back to the Valley... ;)

SaberPro
02-22-2002, 10:53 AM
A nice JK aspect: Idle Mode!

Although in JK, if you have ur lightsaber activate and left it there for idle, it looks like you are cutting your self on the neck...

Raze
02-22-2002, 12:00 PM
Ew Deathbolt, in spite your self-proclaimed eliteness, 'centripetal force' (how you call it wrongly) is nothing but a bug in JK.



Just about no other game has that centripetal force factor, where u accelerate when you turn.
Because it's a flaw unique to JK.



This is the the principle behind the saber style most folks refer to as mouse warp
The warping is due to another flaw in JK, namely its netcode. You can see it is not a feature by lowering the tick rate gradually (by editing the registry, because the ingame settings only allow for 100-250 ticks). When you get at about 50, the effect you described disappears because more packets are sent, allowing for better position transfer.



centripetal force=force exerted tangenital to an object pivoting in a circular motion around a fixed point.
Centripetal force is exerted to the middle of the circle the object is describing. Centrifugal force is an unreal force which is exerted in the other direction.



When you turned fast it exuded force tangent to the circle u described and u accelerated.
Though one might get the expression that an object rotating in a circular way accelerates when you cut the rope, it surely does not. As soon as the object is no longer bound to the center of the circle, no forces are exerted on it. In an ideal environment, the object would just fly on and on forever (in reality this is not the cause due the air decellerating the object). Acceleration comes from force and force alone, so does deceleration.



I'd like to see it represented in the movement of JK2 just cause it is so unique and gives folks supreme flexibility in their movement speed.
Translation: I have learnt to master a bug which appears in JK and I want to see it added to JK II so I can still be elite above the others who didn't master the bug.



Sincerely,

-Ra*waiting for the l33t flame*ze

Lucky
02-22-2002, 02:05 PM
I coined the term in relation to this topic, so ill explain it a tad.

Centripetal means center seeking. Isaak Newton came up with it to describe the phenomenon of an object rotating around a central pivot point.

Take yer shirt of and swing it around yer head like a helicopter. Got me? good.


Centripetal force is indeed the center seeking force involved in this situation. I phrased it wrong and thats db has been quoting me. So thats my fault.

What I was attempting to describe was the velocity v that is derived from the centripetal force acted on you as a player, which is what you see and experience relative to someone who is running in a straight line next to you.

When you turn you accelerate in by traveling in a uniform circular motion. The acceleration is centripetal. When you release your hold on the ground, you fly off at a vtangent dictated by the equation a=v^2/r . Adding mass in there gives u the force.

You can see the indirect relationship between the size of the circle you transcribe and the acceleration you experience. Turning tighter yeilds more accleration.

In JK you quit transcribing the circular motion when you let go of the ground. You fly off along a vector v which is tangent to the circle you were running along.

Is it a centripetal force? No not really. Centripetal force/accleration is definitely a component of how its defined however. And vice versa. When I was first trying to figure out how it worked I called it a tangental force, however thats not accurate because by adjusting the radius of yer circle or by simply turning the mouse faster around that circle you acclerate your mass to a greater extent on that tangental velocity vector.

It's kind of like running at high speed extremes with low speed magnitudes. The rules shouldn't apply but they do for whatever reason.

Its somthing that made JK unique, I hesitate to call it a 'bug'. We've got no idea if it is or not, its just a part of the movement system that sets it apart and makes it fun.

As for the tick rate idea. There are several distinct causes of warping. One of them is packet loss and packet rates. It causes a lot of problems that aren't similar to the other warping methods. They don't even look quite the same. I've experimented with tick rate more than a few times and kept a record of how people going thru various NAPS looked to me from a subjective pov. It is considerably different than mouse jerk.

Mouse jerk makes direct use of the centripetal to tangental translation of yer mouse movements to yer player movements. [wasn't it just easier for me to say centripetal even if it was wrong? it at least got folks thinking along the right lines] And it outruns the animation cycle of JK. Its not a netcode thing, anybody can warp like mad, on any connection.

Basically JK has frame by frame physics instead of time based for plotting certain things. The animation is one of them. You only have so many key frames of anim to burn thru, when you run really fast you generate more points than were accounted for by the anim and thus you get skippage. When the points match up precisely with the key frames it looks smooth. When you speed up beyond what was anticipated [prolly means it was a bug] you get an effect that is a lot like stretching an elastic band. You begin to see the individual fibers in what looked whole before.

The frame by frame display for anims instead of time based is somthing a lot of fps's fall pray to. Q3 has that problem, you exist for every frame you generate and if yer frames are too far apart you skip around.

If you want to test this theory, take a warping gheyborist, and ask him to run in a straight line with no strafe for you. He should look smooth as butter under good conditions.



Lucky

Lucky
02-22-2002, 02:08 PM
also, in defense of the bug.

one word: skiing!

Tribes2 had that built in even tho it was an admitted bug in the first game. Some bugs offer enough that its worth keeping them.


Anders

Raze
02-22-2002, 02:42 PM
Isaak Newton came up with it to describe the phenomenon of an object rotating around a central pivot point.
All of our motion physics are based on Newton.


What I was attempting to describe was the velocity v that is derived from the centripetal force acted on you as a player,
The centripetal force doesn't give you any velocity. The centripetal force is the force which keeps you on the circle. This force might be caused by anything. It might be caused by a string, or by the gravity (moon around earth) or by a magnetic force. Your velocity however is caused by the force which accelerated you. Your acceleration is caused by a force accelerating you (if you swing your shirt faster, you are causing the force accelerating it).


which is what you see and experience relative to someone who is running in a straight line next to you.
I don't get what you are trying to express.. relative to a linear movement? How does this get into that, a linear movement is a linear movement.


When you turn you accelerate in by traveling in a uniform circular motion.

No, turning does not give you acceleration. It can't possibly. You experience a strong unreal force (centrifugal force) which makes you feel being accelerated maybe, but you do not get accelerated.


When you release your hold on the ground, you fly off at a vtangent
If you run in a circle, your feet are exerting the centripetal force, if you release your hold on the ground, there no longer is centripetal force, therefore you keep your current movement which is the tangent to the circle you were describing in the point you currently are.


You can see the indirect relationship between the size of the circle you transcribe and the acceleration you experience. Turning tighter yeilds more accleration.
Again, you do not accelerate. Your angle-velocity increases, your frequency increases but that's about it.


In JK you quit transcribing the circular motion when you let go of the ground. You fly off along a vector v which is tangent to the circle you were running along.
The way it should be.


If you want to test this theory, take a warping gheyborist, and ask him to run in a straight line with no strafe for you. He should look smooth as butter under good conditions.
Of course, why wouldn't he.



Sincerely,
Raze

Makkoan
02-22-2002, 03:10 PM
Actually centripetal force is just Newton's first law in action

Newton's First Law states that an object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an external force. It may be seen as a statement about inertia, that objects will remain in their state of motion unless a force acts to change the motion.

Lets take an example of a ball on a string swinging around.

The string must provide the necessary centripetal force to move the ball in a circle. If the string breaks, the ball will move off in a straight line. The straight line motion in the absence of the constraining force is an example of Newton's first law.

Go here http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/imgmec/strmas.gif for a picture.

Raze
02-22-2002, 03:16 PM
Just what I said! :cool:

Sincerely,
Raze

toms
02-22-2002, 05:40 PM
the level puzzles!!!!!!!

DF, JK and IJatIM had some of the best SP levels ever.... they had puzzles that involved manipulation of the level environment and they also had puzzles that you had to logically think out, but you could also experiment with them a bit to figure out how they worked and what you had to do.....

"puzzles" in most other FPS games still seem to be cunningly concealed versions of the "find the key", "flip the switch" gameplay of yore....

good examples would be the imperial vault in DF and the cargo container bit in JK.

DeathBoLT
02-22-2002, 10:17 PM
Translation: I have learnt to master a bug which appears in JK and I want to see it added to JK II so I can still be elite above the others who didn't master the bug.

Raze, would you accuse me of the same if i stated i also wanted to the lightsaber to be present? ok, the effect of accelerating when turning isn't as important, but you get the idea. i consider this aspect, bug or not, to be a very significant part of JK gameplay that gives a player alot more control over movement speed, etc.

Tre Lightshadow
02-23-2002, 10:46 AM
By going in a circle, you are constantly accelerating. Acceleration ocurrs when velocity or direction changes, you may not be gaining any speed, but you are still accelerating.

MikeC
02-23-2002, 11:30 AM
Let me clear up a little of the physics here.

Centrifigul force doesn't really exist. It's just a combination of cintripital force and momentum. That's what Makkoan was kind of talking about.

Centripital force is an actual force. In Makkoan's example the force is the inward pull that string places on the ball. In the case of the earth and the moon it's the gravitationa pull between teh masses. It does impart an acceleration which can be seen in the changing direction of the moving object (curves instead of going in a straight line). Remember Newton's second law, that F=ma : to have acceleration you have to have a force.

Now to the actual JK/JO stuff.
From SaberProin JK, if you have ur lightsaber activate and left it there for idle, it looks like you are cutting your self on the neck
As I always liked to say, a real Jedi shaves with a lightsaber!

From KurganMultiple paths in the storyline (Dark Side, Light Side), the choice of powers as you went along, all seemed pretty unique to JK in the FPS genre.
I doubt if there will really be a light side/dark side split. I will admint it's possible given Kyle's past brushes with the dark side (see Mysteries of the Sith). I would love to see a diverging storyline of one sort or another though.

Raze
02-23-2002, 03:08 PM
Orginally by Raze
Centrifugal force is an unreal force which is exerted in the other direction.


Orginally by Raze
This force might be caused by anything. It might be caused by a string, or by the gravity (moon around earth) or by a magnetic force


Orginally by Raze
Your acceleration is caused by a force accelerating you


Is anybody acutally reading my stuff? :rolleyes:


I have to admit that change of direction is an acceleration but in this very context I was talking about acceleration as an increase of velocity.


Sincerely,
Raze

MikeC
02-23-2002, 03:16 PM
But it IS changing velocity. Remember that velocity is a vector, not just speed.

HitMan
02-23-2002, 04:56 PM
Is this really still about JK2 or are you all just arguing about science? :dozey:

This is much more entertaining

:monkey4:

Eternity
02-23-2002, 05:11 PM
WD_ToRMeNt: Oh, please, for my sake, be quiet. It seems the only times you post on these forums is to bring up the 'l33t skillz' and how everybody should 'ph3ar them'.

Reality check, you little egotistical man:

You ramble on about how you must have the right mindset, and how skills must be perfected in JK, etc. etc. Reality is, in the cosmic sense of things, you have pretty much nothing on anybody, besides this game you have. Even when it's not in the cosmic sense of things, you pretty much are doing nil. This 'game' you are so good at is four years old. Nobody plays it anymore besides the hardcores. (No offence to those who do; I'm not saying it's a bad game, just that it's audience has waned.) And lastly, those who are truly liked and appreciated for their skills don't boast about it. The true leaders, in a nutshell, don't do what you do.

I try to be nice in these boards, as it is such a nice place. But you've made me lose my temper, and I apologise to those who had to read that.

Shakes his head.

JaGReiKo
02-23-2002, 05:33 PM
Actually torment is giving out advice to people who play q3 and never played jk, and how it could be in jk2. Everyone boasts everytime or another, its just a game dont get to offended.

Raze
02-23-2002, 09:33 PM
But it IS changing velocity. Remember that velocity is a vector, not just speed.

Fine fine fine, I meant to say speed, English is not my primary language, I thought it'd be the same :p

SS_Foxy
02-23-2002, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt
I don't give damn about the SP, but JK's MP is absolutely unique. Most people don't understand the force dynamics and the extremes they can be taken to.

Playing JK FF is like playing chess at mach 2. I'm serious.

To be good in JK FF you need everything to be good in any other FPS and much more.

1) Aim
2) Ability to think ahead of your opponent. Force speed (plus lag) is to fast to aim at where they are, you must be thinking ahead of your opponent to dodge his conc/desctructs and hit him with yours. You must out think him.
3) extreme multi tasking
4) Ability to watch 2d map and 3d screen at the same time
5) Keep a steady count in your mind and time one or more power ups.
6) Lightning fast reflexes
7) Knowleadge of the lag/netcode
8) better then avarage hand-eye coordination to control speed/jump combos

This is what made JK to complex and extreme. Most JKers can't handle the above (and definately not all at the same time) and just stick to NF sabs.

Today I got into a game of BGJ FF FFA... I had 53 kills, and the guy who was in 2nd had only 2...

Woiah! what's your zone name?

WD_ToRMeNt
02-23-2002, 11:39 PM
WD_ToRMeNt is my zone name hehe. I do teach newbies who ask.

MikeC
02-24-2002, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by Raze


Fine fine fine, I meant to say speed, English is not my primary language, I thought it'd be the same :p

:smirk2: Most people wouldn't know the difference. You just had the misfortune of getting into this discussion with an engineer.

Lucky
02-24-2002, 12:15 AM
It's not reality we're describing, its JK.

Someone once described warping to me by saying 'JK doesn't like sharp turns'.

Lemme give you an example raze since I'm having a tough time getting this across, mostly cause i keep posting drunk, lmao.

In nf sabs, when you turn gradually your velocity increases slightly. This is actually more apparent in ff sabs, but nf sabs is easier to describe fer me. That'll be item a.

Item b. The 'double jump'. While its not really double, it is essentially an acceleration followed by a quick pivot that sends you flying along the direction you came from going faster and farther than you could achieve normally.

Basically that means that if you turn gradually you are going to go a lil faster. If you turn sharply yer going to go a heck of a lot faster. Now the centripetal force[f=ma f=mv^2/r] is the force drawing you towards the center of the circle, when that force is snapped by you leaving the ground you go farther and faster than you could have by running in a straight line. That velocity you achieve is the vector tangent to the circle.

Since the speed you trace around the circle is constant, the only thing that could be adding to your velocity [adding/accleration ahem] is the fact that you are traveling along a circle. Now you describe the circle by the speed at which you move your mouse. If you move your mouse really quickly, the radius of the circle is smaller and that translates into a greater velocity tangent to the circle you ran in.

If you still don't get it, boot up JK. Host a FF game of sabs. first run straight into a wall airborn with 4 stars in speed. Then try running directly away from it and pulling a 180 degree turn along with a jump and hitting that wall. I guarantee you will take more damage with the double jump than with the straight run.

Now how would you describe that? No other FPS has anything similar to that. The only thing I could reason out over the years was that the radius of yer circle was directly related to a time component of you moving your mouse. That was related to the centripetal force/acceleration because a=v/t. When you decrease the radius/time you take in describing a circle you accelerate to a greater degree producing a greater velocity vector tangent to that circle. That make sense?

Is it physically possible in real life? I don't think so. I think its all about the user input of JK coupled with that one situation. You accelerate by turning/moving yer mouse in a circular pattern.

There are all sorts of holes in that theory but the basis of it is pretty sound and observable. Like if you turned infinitely precisely and jumped perfectly you should be able to accelerate to an enormous degree. So there must be a ratio in there that limits it. What'd be fun would be to get a 0 g game going and have 3 people double jump at different degree's of tightness and see who gets going the fastest.

Anyhow the centripetal force is what accelerates you increasing your tangent velocity. You could think of it in terms of momentum if you'd like. I still stick to that idea even if I butchered it when relating it to db a while back.

That make sense Raze?


Anders

MuRaSaMuNe
02-24-2002, 12:15 AM
Hmmm.... I'm going to have to agree with you HitMan Science and Gaming skills really don't mix.

Yodimus Prime
02-24-2002, 12:19 AM
uh...yeah. I'm glad people cleared up the "no acceleration" thing. It was bugging me when i read it.



I was going to post something good for this topic. But by the time i had finished reading the posts, i had forgotten what we were supposed to be talking about.



Oh, and i no one ever got me a chocolate jedi medalion when i first came in. What? Do i suck that much?

MikeC
02-24-2002, 12:26 AM
Nobody gave me one either.

Yodimus Prime
02-24-2002, 12:49 AM
yeah, we must have both inadvertently registered on Everyone-who-registers-on-this-day-sucks day.

Either that or there's some crazy loophole we haven't heard of.

but that would go along with the "we suck" deal anyway.

Redwing
02-24-2002, 01:27 AM
I never got one either. :( Of course, I never was a newbie, since I cam here after the forums merge so I had my ridiculously high RS.net post count. (Still do btw :D)

FYI: The JK engine was modified from the XvT engine (a space sim) Thus the *bug* you speak of.

As for this Centripetal Force animal: I never mastered this, tho I was told of it previously. :( It was too hard to understand for me, I suppose. I do not think it should be included in JK2...it's not *realistic* according to Star Wars. There's no reason to carry it over, since relative few mastered it anyway. Same for mouse warp.

Fardreamer
02-24-2002, 02:34 AM
Can't ever leave physics out of a thread, eh, Mike? :D

You people forget that JK2 isn't a remake of JK, made specially for veteran JK players. It's an entirely new game, meant to appeal to people who've never played JK as well as people who still play it. JO should be just as different from JK as JK was from DF, and therefore SHOULD NOT feel and play like Jedi Knight. Personally I'm looking forward to something different altogether, and not just JK on steroids.

Raze
02-24-2002, 08:21 AM
Luke, really, I am fully aware that JK's way of handling movement is wicked. I have found about that a long time ago and I have taught many people of my clan how to use it. I know that you can take your momentum with you when you turn, I know how and why warping occurs.

I was just pointing out that this is a BUG in JK, not a feature, like Deathbolt called it.


Anyhow the centripetal force is what accelerates you increasing your tangent velocity. You could think of it in terms of momentum if you'd like.

Wrong in RL, possible in JK, though I don't think it has to be true necessarily.

When you decrease the radius/time you take in describing a circle you accelerate to a greater degree producing a greater velocity vector tangent to that circle. That make sense?
No, doesn't make sense, I am afraid. The time component in a=v/t is not the time you need to do 1 cirlce (which indeed is 1/f [frequency], often referred to as T (capital letter) ) but the time during which you accelerate. Say you accelerate your speed by 10 m/s for/in 1 second then you acceleration a=v/t is a=10/1 m/sē = 10 m/sē .


Now the centripetal force[f=ma f=mv^2/r] is the force drawing you towards the center of the circle, when that force is snapped by you leaving the ground you go farther and faster than you could have by running in a straight line. That velocity you achieve is the vector tangent to the circle.
Untrue in RL, I am not sure if you were talking about JK or RL when saying that, just thought I'd point that out once again.


Sincerely,
Raze

Lucky
02-24-2002, 08:29 PM
im only talking about JK's physics, im using actual descriptions of stuff where it applies.


It boils down to: if yer radius is smaller you decrease the t in a=v/t which increases yer acceleration.

You keep getting tangled up in rl physics and not describing whats going on in the game. Think about how you would describe it with math and not what you've learned in school. It doesn't apply to a game thats spoofing the stuff anyhow. The equations they used to simulate it might not even look remotely the same. Take friction for instance, there's no way they used the actual equation for friction. Its too easy to spoof a force parallel to whatever surface of such and such magnitude.

If you carve out a tighter circle then your acceleration is greater for a period of time which results in a greater tangental velocity when you break your lock on the ground.

I never bothered to come up with an equation that describes it precisely because the ratio may or may not make sense. It might require some experimentation to figure it out. Yer mouse has to translate into some acceleration thats added to the v tangent. But the faster you turn your mouse the smaller your radius. So yer radius and mouse acceleration have to be inversely related. Which means you should be able to come up with somthing that relates the radius of yer circle to the v tangent of it, without worrying about the mousey accel. If you can't get rid of the user input variable we'll never figure it out.

I'll try to come up with somthin in the next few days that actually describes it. I think it has to do with the way they spoofed centripetal force which was why I brought it up in the first place. The force drawing you towards the center of the circle gets snapped and it gives you some added momentum; accelerates you.

Gimme a hand raze, I've got other things to worry bout.


Anders

DeathBoLT
02-24-2002, 11:58 PM
I'd love it if someone could ask about the presence of the bug that turned out to be a plus, that causes you to gain momentum when you put an arch in your movement at the chat on march 1st if I can't make it. :)

Raze
02-25-2002, 03:42 PM
I must have missed the part where you said you were trying to figure out a formula for the game-physics heh.

Well, let's rest it here, I got other things to do as well, I am just an arguing type of guy =) .


-Raze