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ps2maddenman
02-15-2002, 09:17 AM
Brett Tosti's interview at www.xgr.com said that you can choke someone and if you are strong enough you can lift them in the air and then run up to them and hack them with a saber, this sounds really cool in the SP campaign, but in MP I think it will stink, it seems like those who have this ability will have an unfair advantage in the MP maps, what do you guys think?

Silent Wolf
02-15-2002, 09:20 AM
Honestly i dont think anyone can make a sincere statement because we really havent played it yet ;)

Blokie_
02-15-2002, 09:22 AM
no because you can counter grip with push which means it wont work against people with push

ps2maddenman
02-15-2002, 10:01 AM
"no because you can counter grip with push which means it wont work against people with push"

Really?? That's a good idea, did you read this somewhere?

thx

Kwup
02-15-2002, 10:22 AM
just as long as we can't choke-spam then I am all set ;)

Kettch
02-15-2002, 10:56 AM
What about force absorb? It should counter grip

Dirth Vedar
02-15-2002, 12:12 PM
What if you counter a grip with... a grip!!
Then you'll have two people just floating in the air a small distance apart, both choking, ahhahahahahahahaha

Dan12R
02-15-2002, 03:28 PM
I think that force Absorb would work. It's what I use in JK. If not, I hope they have a way to stop it. Like it takes awhile for the picking up to take place so whoever is getting choked has a chance to run, or something like that.

dazilla
02-15-2002, 05:14 PM
Force absorb will only prevent the grip from taking away your health, but it might still immobilize you...I think that a good remedy would be using absorb and jump at the same time

Thrawn
02-15-2002, 05:17 PM
I'm sure that they'll be multiple ways to counter choke. It's one of the only bad things about JK MP. I'm sure that they've fixed it now.

JPMaximilian
02-15-2002, 05:20 PM
Force Grip might slightly different in Multi for balance.

Naphtali
02-15-2002, 10:27 PM
The choke will get stronger with each star/. Im sure in MP that the force choke wont work on a jedi as easily. He can use the force to counter it

Belgirion
02-16-2002, 12:17 AM
I just hope choke is not as cheap as in Multiplayer JK

DeathBoLT
02-16-2002, 12:48 AM
grip in jk mp was not cheap...

as far as grip is concerned in jk2, i think it might be a bad idea to imobilize people as killing them with the saber would be incredibly easy(due to pixel-pixel collision detection, q3 netcode).

Obi
02-16-2002, 01:43 AM
<font color=cbcbff> I don't care what galaxy you are from, Grip in JK MP was not only cheap, it was <i>extremely</i> cheap. There was essentially nothing a light jedi could do to stop it short of using protection. And since most of the folks who choose to use the more challenging set of powers have sort of a code of honor to follow, protection was rarely used as it was considered just as cheap as uncounterably immobilizing your opponent.

The only thing we learned to do to survive grip was to use(of course) force absorb and then try to force jump out of it. Due to JK's relatively shoddy netcode though, that always resulted in the breaking of lower extremities upon the nearest solid surface, especially when Destruction(also an overly-strong power) was thrown into the mix. Either way, one simple neutral power countered all of the light side's fighting chance(blind and persuasion) so all we could do was writhe around in grip and try to jump until we got hit by someone's lightsaber.

In guns it was different because with absorb on, your gun can't be pulled(the best and ...only advantage of the light side) and you could just shoot at whoever was gripping you, making it a little more fair.

Redwing
02-16-2002, 02:20 AM
Even cheaper: rapid grip.

DeathBoLT
02-16-2002, 02:21 AM
Originally posted by Obi
<font color=cbcbff> I don't care what galaxy you are from, Grip in JK MP was not only cheap, it was <i>extremely</i> cheap. There was essentially nothing a light jedi could do to stop it short of using protection. And since most of the folks who choose to use the more challenging set of powers have sort of a code of honor to follow, protection was rarely used as it was considered just as cheap as uncounterably immobilizing your opponent.

The only thing we learned to do to survive grip was to use(of course) force absorb and then try to force jump out of it. Due to JK's relatively shoddy netcode though, that always resulted in the breaking of lower extremities upon the nearest solid surface, especially when Destruction(also an overly-strong power) was thrown into the mix. Either way, one simple neutral power countered all of the light side's fighting chance(blind and persuasion) so all we could do was writhe around in grip and try to jump until we got hit by someone's lightsaber.

In guns it was different because with absorb on, your gun can't be pulled(the best and ...only advantage of the light side) and you could just shoot at whoever was gripping you, making it a little more fair.



Gripe Gripe Gripe.. let me guess, you think the cr, mines, etc. are unfair too? It's all part of the game, protection, deadly sight, destruction, etc. etc. learn to deal with it or move on to something else.

And since most of the folks who choose to use the more challenging set of powers have sort of a code of honor to follow, protection was rarely used as it was considered just as cheap as uncounterably immobilizing your opponent.

Light is the more skillful power in BGJ FF??? I've beaten several excellent darkside players by going light, and I can tell you, I wouldn't be able to touch them if I went dark.

The only thing we learned to do to survive grip was to use(of course) force absorb and then try to force jump out of it.
correction: The only thing you've learned to counter grip with. Everything in this game has an counter; if you're not good enough to use them, stick to the Canyon Oasis(Rookie) room.

TuSKeN_RaiDeR
02-16-2002, 03:08 AM
Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't you able to counter force grip in MP JK with force persuasion, when you have this on you can't be targetted.

:mob:

I'm not very sure about this one because it's a long time ago I played JK MP but i thought you could also use force blind (i'm not very sure) to counter it.

Kurgan
02-16-2002, 04:19 AM
In JK/MotS, the best defense against grip was protection (but many others existed.. you just had to get out of sight, or damage your attacker), but so far nothing like that in JK2 yet. I'm sure there will be multiple counters...


To counter grip in JK:

Protection (best, no damage, wastes their mana)
Blind them (won't work if they have seeing on)
Persuasion (won't work if they have seeing on)
Deadly Sight
Lightning
Grip (assuming you can target them)
Throw (assuming there are objects to throw and you can target them)
Jump
Speed (tough, but combined with jump, works well)
Absorb (although you are still virtually immobilized)

And in addition in MotS:
Saber Throw
Push (if you can push them out of range)
Chain Lightning (if you can target them)
Defense (partial lessening of effects)
Push (can shove them out of grip range, or damage them by slamming into a wall)

And of course, damaging their health, with any weapon, can also counter grip.

[edited - corrected some typo's and mentioned Push]

Chanke4252
02-16-2002, 06:09 AM
I hope force grip isnt as gay in MP as it was in JK1. All you had to do to get a kill in JK1 was to grip them and make sure you kept them in your camera view by tilting up and backing up so when they jumped they stayed in view. I didnt think this was any fun so i stopped doing that like the 3rd week the game came out. If jedi could just force choke eachother and run around so that the other person couldnt get them then why did they need lightsabers?

I thought anything else was ok in the game, i liked playing against people who used guns and everything else other than the excessive force powers. chances are i will still only play or host games where neutral powers are used but to each his own.

Obi
02-16-2002, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by DeathBoLT

correction: The only thing you've learned to counter grip with. Everything in this game has an counter; if you're not good enough to use them, stick to the Canyon Oasis(Rookie) room.

Toggle hacks don't come with the game, Deathbolt.

Obi
02-16-2002, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
In JK/MotS, the best defense against grip was protection (but many others existed.. you just had to get out of sight, or damage your attacker), but so far nothing like that in JK2 yet. I'm sure there will be multiple counters...


To counter grip in JK:

Protection (best, no damage, wastes their mana)
Blind them (won't work if they have seeing on)
Persuasion (won't work if they have seeing on)
Deadly Sight
Lightning
Grip (assuming you can target them)
Throw (assuming their are objects to throw and you can target them)
Jump
Speed (tough, but combined with jump, works well)
Absorb (although you are still virtually immobilized)

And in addition in MotS:
Saber Throw
Push (if you can push them out of range)
Chain Lightning (if you can target them)
Defense (partial lessening of effects)


And of course, damaging their health, with any weapon, can also counter grip.

<font color=cbcbff> Let's modify this list to the resources a saber only lightsider would have.</font>

Protection (best, no damage, wastes their mana)<font color=cbcbff>No honorable player would use this, might as well use the dark side if you'd use a power like this.</font>
Blind them (won't work if they have seeing on)<font color=cbcbff>Ding, countered by a simple neutral power</font>
Persuasion (won't work if they have seeing on)<font color=cbcbff> Ding again, countered by a simple neutral power</font>
Jump
Speed (tough, but combined with jump, works well) <font color=cbcbff>- Sure if you like breaking your legs and falling off of cliffs to your death. Though it is about the only thing you can really do, it is still really not very effective, and by no means a "counter". It is especially hard to use jump and speed against dark side power in high-lag situations(the fact that destruction and grip too for some reason sometimes lagged the already laggy game)</font>
Absorb (although you are still virtually immobilized)-<font color=cbcbff> That leaves us with.....pretty much no way to combat it</font>

I really hope there are more tricks in a jedi's bag for Jedi Knight II. I'd hate to see another balance fiasco like the grip scenario. I played Jedi Knight for a long time, I put a lot of strategies to use. You can't just break your line of sight(this works maybe 3% of the time because due to the lag, you'd continue to feel the effects of grip until the opponent could turn around and target you again), and with only a lightsaber it's awfully hard to hit a moving opponent when you can't move. Maybe with a gun we could shoot them and break contact, but in a saber only match, that is dishonorable.

There is a simple way they could have made the force balance in JK. One thing that was missing. If the Dark side couldn't use grip and sight at the same time, the light side would have had a chance.

ps2maddenman
02-16-2002, 09:14 AM
I would think that making grip use alot more of the force mana pool would balance this issue, because if you used grip on someone then you would basically be force blind for a good 30-45 seconds would do the trick.

WD_ToRMeNt
02-16-2002, 10:05 AM
LOL you guys...

The best way to avoid grip is to simply move fast. Use speed 4, hold down strafe always, don't be predictable, and don't run directly into your opponent EVER. The faster you are moving the easier it is to make it to some place that is out of your opponents line of site.


Grip is fairly easy to get out of, JUST GRIP THE GUY BACK if you are close enough.

Else, him hit with destruction.

If that fails, use force jump to get to where he can't see you. Grip won't totally immobalize you, and you can move a bit while gripped. If you want to know how find me as WD_ToRMeNt on the zone.

If you are a light jedi on a saber only level, the best thing to do is to force jump to some place on the map that is a differant height. Stay on either the light surge cliff or the dark surge cliff.

Grip or not, lightys have a serious advantage in FF guns levels. Since absorb blocks pull, the lighty should have a conc and use pull to make sure the darky doesn't. If the lighty is gripped he should just blast the darky with conc.

PS No matter what map, these are the best powers to use....

Neutral: Speed 4, Seeing 4, Jump 4, Pull 4

and

(If) Dark: Grip 4, Destruction 4

or

(If) Light: Absorb 4, Heal 4

Anything else is asking for a beating.

Dan12R
02-16-2002, 05:15 PM
I haven't been able to play MP for a while, so some of these ideas I can't remember if they work, but I know for sure that absorb works and if you've got that on, they can't damage you, plus you can pull out a concussion rifle without fear of it being pulled away. All you have to do is shoot in the general direction of whoever is choking you and you're free. If that doesn't work, if I remember right, blind will cause them to lose their lock on you. I don't know, if I could still play on-line, I'd do some experimenting. But it just takes some creativity to get out of tough situations

Agen
02-16-2002, 05:21 PM
U can also slam people off walls

WD_ToRMeNt
02-16-2002, 06:48 PM
If you had any potential at all to become good GAMERS and not just SWs fans, you would stop complaining about how "cheap" grip was and learn to use it yourself.

DeathBoLT
02-16-2002, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Obi


Toggle hacks don't come with the game, Deathbolt.

I've just lost any respect I had for you Obi :( I've had far too many matches where I've beaten good darkies(especially since I've had far less experience than those darkies) as a lighty, countering what you say is cheap and lacking any decent counters, thus proving your theories wrong and you go and do something childish like accusing me of cheating :(

ps2maddenman
02-16-2002, 08:51 PM
"I've had far too many matches where I've beaten good darkies"


LOL, that sounds like something that you don't mean.

dazilla
02-16-2002, 09:43 PM
"No honorable player will use protection" (or something like that), well, I'm sorry my friend, but if a darksider is using grip on a lightsider in a saber-only battle, protection is pretty much the only thing left to use, isn't it?

WD_ToRMeNt
02-16-2002, 10:08 PM
If you use protection in BGJ you will be hard to kill, but you also won't get hardly any kills yourself and you'lll most likely end up in last place. Other people will just be ignore you and fight some one else. You cant keep up without speed anyways.

If you use protection in a guns levels (like oasis) you're a very easy target for a gunner. If you're in a game with experts, you won't get any kills and you'll get blasted pretty hard.

Broode
02-16-2002, 10:33 PM
I am sick and tired of people saying "its part of the game live with it" when sometime its not supposed to be part of the game, whether its a bug or a balence problem, some people have learnt to use that so much to their advantage that they couldn't play decently it the problem was rectified.

Look, we're talking about JO now, not JK. This is a completely different game. It may resemble JK in some ways, but let me tell you now, justifying a bad move in gameplay with JK as an example is not a good move. Sure, it may please you, being able to play the game you've played for years, just on a different engine. But dont forget, Lucasarts is still about MONEY. They (and us too, in fact) encourage new players to pick up the series, to give them money and populate our servers. Having a game that only appeals to hardcore JK fanatics may sound good to you on paper, but that is a target audience of about... 300 people? Maybe more, maybe less, i haven't been to the zone in a long time. Anyway, it doesn't matter. What matters is improving the game over JK, and then making that appealing to a larger target audience.

And don't even bother trying to start a flame war, I won't reply.

dazilla
02-16-2002, 10:48 PM
You know what, you're completely right. I don't think that evenn the hardcore JK gamers will want a JK with better graphics and new story...you have to have the innovation side of it.

DeathBoLT
02-17-2002, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Broode
Look, we're talking about JO now, not JK. This is a completely different game. It may resemble JK in some ways, but let me tell you now, justifying a bad move in gameplay with JK as an example is not a good move. Sure, it may please you, being able to play the game you've played for years, just on a different engine.

This thread had drifted from choke in jo to choke in jk, and the discussion was over whether grip in jk was balanced or not. In ff, whether I was practicing to get better at bgj ff, I'd play dark. In tourneys, I'd play light because that was significantly easier to go toe to toe with the upper echelons of bgj ff players as. As a competitive lighty(who was always being the one gripped) that has gone toe to toe with some of the best bgj ff players who have learned to use grip to its fullest, I think I'm pretty qualified to determine if it was unbalanced or not.

Regardless, if we're taking the subject back over to grip in JO, I agree with the others on whether grip should imobilize or not. I think there should be no power that allows you to imobilize your opponent. Why? Because the saber will be significantly deadly with pixel-pixel collision detection and the new netcode. Imoblizing someone is likely to leave them significantly vunerable to the grip-saber slash combo. Take note: because of pixel-pixel collision detection and the netcode.. not because of the new eye candy moves like the flips, etc. most of the top competitive gamers I know are not likely likely to even use have the eye-candy elaborate moves they're going to include in there. As long as the graphics are decent most competitive gamers care more about gameplay than eye-candy. Also note: the majority of competitive gamers do not want a jk clone out of jo, but we also don't want a slow elaborate fencing game either.


But dont forget, Lucasarts is still about MONEY. They (and us too, in fact) encourage new players to pick up the series, to give them money and populate our servers. Having a game that only appeals to hardcore JK fanatics may sound good to you on paper, but that is a target audience of about... 300 people? Maybe more, maybe less, i haven't been to the zone in a long time. Anyway, it doesn't matter. What matters is improving the game over JK, and then making that appealing to a larger target audience.

I know, thats why they're including all those little eye candy moves with the lightsaber combat, etc. No top compettive gamer is probably going to use those moves, but they include it anyways. In JK, anyone could have 'movie-like' duels. But only if both players were willing to make-believe. You could make movie-like duels available to those who wanted them, but not force movie-like duels on those who didn't want them. This means keeping the small things like the pace of the game, etc. for those who want it. Nothing ever stopped you from having movie-like duels in the game except for both player's desire to. If you could never find anyone who would pretend to be a jedi with you, that means the everyone you encountered didn't want to play jedi with you .

pinkpanther718
02-17-2002, 03:46 PM
I don't know what you are talking about when you say the "competetive gamers" won't use the acrobatic moves and that they are purely there for graphical enhancement. Thats really not the case from what I've read. It looks to me as though those moves will be essential to success. I could be wrong, but if "competetive gamers" think they will get around using these moves, they are most likely in for a big suprise as I am fairly sure that these moves will be essential to combat.

DeathBoLT
02-17-2002, 04:21 PM
I don't know what you are talking about when you say the "competetive gamers" won't use the acrobatic moves and that they are purely there for graphical enhancement. Thats really not the case from what I've read. It looks to me as though those moves will be essential to success. I could be wrong, but if "competetive gamers" think they will get around using these moves, they are most likely in for a big suprise as I am fairly sure that these moves will be essential to combat.

Competitive gamers will not sit there and duel elaborately. They will go for quick attacks that expose them to the least amount of danger.. elaborate saber duels like those on 'art of the lightsbaer for mots', 'sbx' etc. mods aren't something thats going to happen.

pinkpanther718
02-17-2002, 04:26 PM
Ok, you believe what you want, but when I'm about to be shot, If I am able to flip or roll out of the way I think i'll do it. If you want to be a 'competetive gammer" you can just stand there or try to run out of the way.

DeathBoLT
02-17-2002, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by pinkpanther718
Ok, you believe what you want, but when I'm about to be shot, If I am able to flip or roll out of the way I think i'll do it. If you want to be a 'competetive gammer" you can just stand there or try to run out of the way.
from what i've seen in the trailers, they don't appear to have that much value.

Chanke4252
02-17-2002, 04:47 PM
deathbolt, i dont think that they will have the super powerful second swing of the secondary attack move available to you hardcore gamers. I am pretty sure that saber duels in this game will consist of more than running up at 100mph midway through your secondary swing so that you can kill them in one slash without having to block or anything else. Remember, this game is set in the starwars universe, and i never once recall seeing or reading about people running around a room at 90mph swinging lightsabers around without them ever hitting, that is not in the starwars universe. Maybe someone will make a JK mod for you though deathbolt, so you can run around at 90mph and kill people in one shot and force grip, that would be fun wouldnt it.
If i had some inferority complex, and i wanted to feel like i was superior to people like that I would just go sack and camp somebody's base in Tribes (which i make a point not to).

I think that the point of this game is to invent something new and better, but base it loosely on the past game (JK). Now i dont think their goal is to drive off all non-hardcore JK gamers, so you might want to start realizing that this game is not JK and you will not be able to use the same tactics.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Competitive gamers will not sit there and duel elaborately. They will go for quick attacks that expose them to the least amount of danger.. elaborate saber duels like those on 'art of the lightsbaer for mots', 'sbx' etc. mods aren't something thats going to happen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is correct, these mods arent going to happen because they will be part of the game already (if you havent been watching the previews). Before you decide what people are and arent going to do, play the game. I have my opinions but I am not making blind claims on what people will or will not do before even playing a beta copy of the game. Now lets all stop talking about how uber we were in JK and how eveyrone else cant play etc etc, and post constructively. If you are not able to do that then go use your super duper force grip counter attacks in JK and leave us without your one sided posts.

Agen
02-17-2002, 05:00 PM
God Dammit, i was a darkie, fair enough. I gripped people. they
a)easily absorbed
or
b)Used destruction.

Those are the 2 easiest defenses against grip. I had no prb with grip. Destruct back or force jump into water. So when did all the newbie anti-grip stuff come about?

Chanke4252
02-17-2002, 05:29 PM
The newbie anti grip stuff came up a long time ago when myself and everyone who hated it stopped playing. The problem with grip in JK1 is that there was no risk in using it. You would always hit and you never suffered any penalty when it was countered. When you shoot you lessen your ammo whether you hit or not. When you force destruct you lessen your force pool. When you do any of the other offensive force powers you will suffer a penalty whether you hit them or not, but not with force choke. Because of this, force choke became a way for people to damage others without any risk or skill involved. When you saber duel you have to get close to them to hit, which means that they also have a chance to hit you with their saber as well (risk/reward).

Now i would not have a problem with it if there was a way to counter it before it effected you. You can counter everything else before they actually effect you (except force deadly sight which costs mana whether you hit or not). The only way to do that is to not let the other person see you, which would mean that you wouldnt be able to play the game as it was intended.

I think that these are the reasons that myself and other people, who you call n00bs, have a problem with it. You never heard this before because we either stopped playing most public multiplayer games that had full force, or we stopped playing all together.

DeathBoLT
02-17-2002, 05:34 PM
deathbolt, i dont think that they will have the super powerful second swing of the secondary attack move available to you hardcore gamers.
They probably won't; so it will take a few more hits to bring them down.

I am pretty sure that saber duels in this game will consist of more than running up at 100mph midway through your secondary swing so that you can kill them in one slash without having to block or anything else.
I'd have to imagine nf sabers will be more complex than jk nf sabers, however, a major key to victory in all games is to keep moving, and I'm not, and I doubt any other competitive gamer is going to sit around trying to play like obi-wan, darth maul, etc. do. People will still be trying to outmaneuver their opponents, dart in, get a few swings in, and then retreat to safety. Useful blocking is going to make it a little more complex, but I look foward to a little more challenge.

Remember, this game is set in the starwars universe, and i never once recall seeing or reading about people running around a room at 90mph swinging lightsabers around without them ever hitting, that is not in the starwars universe.
This is typically one of the largest differences between the newbie/starwars/mod community and the competitive gamer community. You guys like to pretend that you're Luke Skywalker and we are willing to sacrafice reality for gameplay.

Maybe someone will make a JK mod for you though deathbolt, so you can run around at 90mph and kill people in one shot and force grip, that would be fun wouldnt it.
I won't need a mod if its different than JK; and that brings me to point out another difference between the newbie/starwars/mod community and the competitive gamers community; we don't sit there and *****, call it cheap, or whatever about a aspect of the game; we deal with it and learn to use it our advantage.


I think that the point of this game is to invent something new and better, but base it loosely on the past game (JK). Now i dont think their goal is to drive off all non-hardcore JK gamers, so you might want to start realizing that this game is not JK and you will not be able to use the same tactics.
I recognize this; I've also gotten a good idea from the trailer what sort of game play will be featured in saber play and I am able to recognize what tactics still might have application in JK2.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Competitive gamers will not sit there and duel elaborately. They will go for quick attacks that expose them to the least amount of danger.. elaborate saber duels like those on 'art of the lightsbaer for mots', 'sbx' etc. mods aren't something thats going to happen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is correct, these mods arent going to happen because they will be part of the game already (if you havent been watching the previews).

Read my quote more carefully: ..elaborate saber duels like those on 'art of the lightsbaer for mots', 'sbx' etc. mods ..

Before you decide what people are and arent going to do, play the game. I have my opinions but I am not making blind claims on what people will or will not do before even playing a beta copy of the game.
I could be wrong about what people are likely to use and not use. But the trailers have given me some idea of what parts will be useful. Hardly blind claims at all.

Now lets all stop talking about how uber we were in JK and how eveyrone else cant play etc etc, and post constructively.
I hate sounding elitist so I would never point out my skill in JK unless I needed to prove my knowledge in a matter that this post is debating over.

If you are not able to do that then go use your super duper force grip counter attacks in JK and leave us without your one sided posts.
I've got every right to post my opinions about a game that I am buying, just like you. If you disagree with them, you're welcome to post your own opposing view points. Don't go off telling me to quit talking about something you don't like.

Chanke4252
02-17-2002, 05:41 PM
Also, keep in mind that MOST people arent "top competative gamers". Most people buy games to enjoy them, not to play competatively with people who dont do anything else with their life but play that game. I dont really care about being a "good gamer", I care about enjoying the game that I am playing, and it is often very hard to do just that when people feel the need to log into a server and talk about how "l33t" they are and run around at force speed force gripping people.

simon says
02-17-2002, 05:51 PM
I agree, and it looks like JO is gonna require people to actually have skills instead of being able to press buttons at the right time. Should make it more fun for normal peeps, and give the 'competative gamers' something to keep em competative about

qtseng
02-17-2002, 06:01 PM
What's your definition of "skill"?

For me, it does include pressing the button at the right time.

Good coordination, that's a skill.

However, it is true that Force Grip might be overpowered. We'll just have to wait and see.

simon says
02-17-2002, 06:05 PM
In JO we will be able to use all kinds of acrobatic moves and stuff, and putting them all together and using them effectively with the 3 lightsaber stances and force powers is part of my definition of skill. While 'pressing a button at the right time' was pretty much all u needed in JK, JO will be much more demanding, i think

DeathBoLT
02-17-2002, 06:10 PM
I have reservations about Grip in JO featuring the imobilizing effect, as the saber will be more dangerous. If the saber is as effective as I think it is, I fear that a grip + slash combo could be extremely lethal. In JK, you always had the difficulty of landing a hit in JK to save you whereas in JO, a saber probably could easily land a hit in the back.

Chanke4252
02-17-2002, 06:38 PM
sorry death, i got a little mad there, i just get a little upset, but just try not to discount parts of the game without playing it, especially when those parts of the game are what 90% of the people are looking forward to.

WD_ToRMeNt
02-17-2002, 07:28 PM
Hehe sounds like Deathbolt is getting a bit upset. I understand, it's so frustrating arguing with cluessless newbies.

But I can confirm what db said, hell I've said the same things myself ever since I started to get good.

There are going to be people who just want to pretend they are luke skywalker, and there are people who are going to take the game and turn it into a science. The later will get so good that the Luke Skywalker wannabes will call them "hacker" after getting raped into the negs by them.

Chanke4252
02-17-2002, 07:46 PM
First off, i hate luke skywalker for a number of reasons. Number 1, haircut. Number 2, mark hamill. Number 3, haircut. I dont mind being killed as long as it takes skill and kind of flows with the game.

I like being blown up and all that stuff and being killed in a legitimate saber battle, but I just cant stand being killed by something where there is no risk to use it (force choke). I suck in JK, and there is nothing more that I enjoy than going after someone who legitimatly killed me and trying to get them, but usually failing. I dont want to be uber, I just want to have a good time failing.

WD_ToRMeNt
02-17-2002, 07:54 PM
Heh welp I doubt you'll have much luck with that in JK2. In JK we had the zone and you had a lot more control over who you play with.

Much (in not almost all) of the MP gaming in JK2 will take place on PUBLIC dedicated servers. Basically you're gonna be stuck with whomever enters the game. Don't be surpised if you and another person are trying to have a movie-type saber battle when a competative player swoops out of nowhere, and kills you both before you realize what happened.

I wonder if this mixing of the competative and casual communities will force more casual players to become more hard core or to quit MP.

qtseng
02-17-2002, 08:16 PM
Simon, yes there will be stances and acrobatic moves, but what's the use of that when you can't "press the button at the right time?"

Part of video/computer games is about hand-eye coordination, and many here would agree with me that it's a skill.

I know what you're trying to get to, but it seems you're being rather misleading...

Chanke4252
02-17-2002, 08:29 PM
The only problem with the Zone is that you dont know the people, when i played i had a bunch of people on a list who liked to play the same way, without force choke. The only problem with that is that you either had to lock the game or severely limit force powers.

Now dont get me wrong, I hate running around at 90mph swinging secondary attack and I have my gripes about that, but at least there is risk included, unlike the JK1 force choke.

The only problem I have with competative players in JK1 is that they tend to overuse force choke if its available. I dont like the fact that they run around at 90mph swinging sabers, but I can live with that. As long as there is some sort of skill or thought involved then its ok with me.

SUMMARY:
Force choke involves no risk and takes little to no skill to use, therefore, it sucks. The only way it sucks anymore than it does normally is if a hardcore player logs into a game and overuses it (which happens often).

Redwing
02-17-2002, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt
Heh welp I doubt you'll have much luck with that in JK2. In JK we had the zone and you had a lot more control over who you play with.

Much (in not almost all) of the MP gaming in JK2 will take place on PUBLIC dedicated servers. Basically you're gonna be stuck with whomever enters the game. Don't be surpised if you and another person are trying to have a movie-type saber battle when a competative player swoops out of nowhere, and kills you both before you realize what happened.

I wonder if this mixing of the competative and casual communities will force more casual players to become more hard core or to quit MP.

---Yeah right!! More likely it would just cause casual players to play with other casual players alone and stay away from the self-labeled "hardcore" bunch.

If JK2 is to be the greatest success it can be, it should be put together so that none of the powers can really be used in a "non-Star Wars" way (which is quite hard to define, unfortunately for the devs---) and so that the hardcore gamers will be able to play to be the best of the best at the game, while what they do still mimics a "Star Wars style", and the casual gamer, while still being beaten, will be beaten in a "Star Warsy" manner.

If Raven can pull that off, I think that most everyone would be quite happy.

EDIT: I just remembered, that the "Jedi Duel" game mode will probably be favored by people who want to act out Star Wars.

Chanke4252
02-17-2002, 09:04 PM
redwing, thats possibly one of the most intelligent posts ive seen on this topic and I agree with it in every way.

Lucky
02-17-2002, 10:46 PM
well, im drunk.


good preface.


first off from the point of view and perspective of this post, as u all have made a bazillion points already: grip takes mana in JK, absorb swipes that mana and dumps it in whoever yer chokins mana globe. yay.

2ndly, grip and all the reticle based force powers are deceptively hard to use. Its basically like locking a rocket in UT. It can be *hard* at high speeds with someone who understands yer field of perception. Also there are queing issues and client side detection thingers that make it difficult.

Inexperience with JK is a great excuse for making crazy claims. I'm not gonna fault any of you kiddies, cause you honestly don't know how complex somthing as seemingly simple as JK can get.

However, you also see how u can get someone as open minded as DB to get all pissy when you make such postulations. Basically calling grip 'skilless' and 'cheap' is equating a FFer's skill with those elements to a big fat 0. Now, you might not understand why they're difficult to use, and you might not care, but respect the time and effort some of us have bothered to put into JK.

This is not to say that you should simply accept what folks say because they claim to have experience =P make em explain it and get the info from more than one source if u haven't heard it before. A lot of 'l33t' players have no clue whats going on behind the scenes, especially if their misconceived notions seem to explain what they see. A lot of times its *just* skill and not thought that sets them apart from the casual player. Since this is a medium of rational thought and not either a twitch fest or a starwars convention, I think we're all on an equal geekyness footing.


JK2 will encompass all our skill levels and not cater to any specific group. Mingle and be merry, above all be open minded so as to not miss anything interesting.


Anders

Redwing
02-17-2002, 10:51 PM
:wstupid:

Here's hoping you're right about that last statement.

Chanke4252
02-17-2002, 10:55 PM
once you hit the grip button, about half a second later the little target thing comes up and all you hav eto do is release the button. in UT when you lock a rocket, you can avoid the rocket, i have no problem with that. But in JK, when you lock force grip, you cannot avoid it, if you could avoid it then i wouldnt have a problem with it. You can stay out of that person's point of view in JK, but I get a feeling that that is not how jk was designed to be played. Get sober and repost.

Lucky
02-17-2002, 11:25 PM
drrrr, yer not taking lag or the range of grip into account, or the queing. bah, i think you totally misunderstood what i was saying. I'll try again.


its your proximty to dead center that determines how long it takes to get a lock. When a person moves towards you and then away, if you get a lock and they've dipped in and out of yer range with grip, the damage will que and hit them just a tad but not stop them or continue for very long.

So you have to account for lag with grip and thats not possible. Essentially a good gripper moves with his opponent in such a way that the damge will que up when the opponent is still within range, thus freezing him. If you don't do this, if you just stand still, yer grip was worthless and you've cost him 10 health.

I hope that clarrifies. yay, bud light.


Anders

Lucky
02-17-2002, 11:34 PM
hrmph, realized u prolly dont get what i mean by 'lag' either.


all the actions are initiated on yer computer and then sent to everyone else in the game seperately and not thru a central server at which point they're displayed and go into effect.

So if you grip someone it will take a half a second to get there and go into effect, once it gets there it qill que backwards from the time u did it and add that much time of damage into it. However, if in the time it took for yer grip message to get to yer opponent and start gripping, he moved out of yer range, yer lock has already broken and he just lost a lil health.

The advantage to grip is to immobilize people. nothing else. You can easily use lag to break the lock, and good players no how to use this and are thus very hard to get any kind of reticle lock on.

Lemme also say this, the advantage to lightside in ff sabers is the ability to stand nearly still and rely on NF skills. Choosing lightside severely limits the usefulness of darkside force except for the ability to push people around with destruction and to stop em with grip. Neither one of these can kill you. It breaks it on down to NF.


Anders

Chanke4252
02-17-2002, 11:34 PM
We're not talking about lag issues or how it comes into play. We are talking about how a feature would come in when there is little to no lag involved. Lag varies from person to person so its not really a major source of conversation.

WD_ToRMeNt
02-18-2002, 12:31 AM
First off, Redwing... You obviously have no idea how the Q3/JK2 (UT and T2 are the same) MP scene is. There is NO WAY for a dedicated server to be newbie only. A dedicated server sends it's IP and info to a master server that is happy to tell ANYONE with the client (ie the game) where it is. There is no way you can keep hardcore players from joining a game over the net.

Secondly, Chanke... There is no such thing as "over using" a power that is affective. If you don't like it, don't play.

Kurgan
02-18-2002, 12:41 AM
While it's perfectly fine to dislike something in a game (obviously there's no accounting for personal taste) I take issue with some of your claims, from my playing experience (JK and MotS for some 3+ years).

WARNING: RANT AHEAD! (heh)

The newbie anti grip stuff came up a long time ago when myself and everyone who hated it stopped playing.

I would think that if you hated a game it would be natural to stop playing it. But not everyone who stopped playing the game did so for the same reasons. Of course some will try to argue (and I don't agree with them) that you only hated the game because you didn't have the patience to put in the time necessary to master it (ie: "you only quit because you sucked"). But then if the question is what you liked or disliked about the game, nothing I can say will change that. However, I would like to refute the claim that grip somehow unbalanced the game or was impossible to deal with effectively.


The problem with grip in JK1 is that there was no risk in using it.

In order to use grip, one has to get close... which means they can be hit with close range attacks (namely the saber, lightning, etc). It is also much easier to target someone when they are close to you (blinding has a great range, but most force powers only target at fairly close range). The closer you are, the shorter your reaction time has to be (both for victim and attacker). Thus grip puts you in a position where you better know what you're doing, else you leave yourself wide open to being hit (including by grip from the other player).

Also there is the issue of mana usage. All force powers use up mana, so that is always a factor. Mana used for grip cannot be used for something else (unless you get the surge, in which case it negates all mana limitation discussion, except perhaps in the case of Defense in MotS).

You also run the risk that if you use grip, the person will just counter it, which means that mana was wasted (if it does no damage).


You would always hit and you never suffered any penalty when it was countered.

Wrong. First of all a person cannot always be targetted successfully (when they are out of sight, invisible, are using the super shield, moving too fast, etc. Second, if it was countered, the mana used on the power was wasted. For example if I have protection on, and you use grip on me, I lose nothing, my movement isn't even impeded, but you lose mana from using grip, plus you are now closer to me, so I have a chance to hit you while you're trying to target me.


When you shoot you lessen your ammo whether you hit or not. When you force destruct you lessen your force pool. When you do any of the other offensive force powers you will suffer a penalty whether you hit them or not, but not with force choke.


Wrong. If you hit somebody with grip, but it has no effect (such as with protection or a super shield) then your mana is depleted. Mana is only lost if you successfully hit a person with grip (whether it does actual damage or not). The same could be said for chain lightning, pull, blind, or any other targetted force power. If you're saying all force powers should have the potential to "miss" and use up force mana with every attempt, that's something else entirely.

Because of this, force choke became a way for people to damage others without any risk or skill involved.

The skills required to use grip are the following:

1) One must get close enough to the target to initiate grip.

2) After initiating grip, one must maintain the proper distance to keep the victim in sight, and avoid being hit by their inevitable counter attack attempts.

3) Whilst distracted by their focus on one opponent, they must also be aware of any other opponents around them who could sieze the opportunity to steal their kill or nail them while they're otherwise occupied.

4) The attacker must be prepared to anticipate and counter the methods that the victim will use to prevent the grip from damaging him (ie: shooting/slashing back, using persuasion, blinding, protection, absorb, speed/jump, etc).

5) The attacker must accurately assess the amount of mana needed to accomplish their goal (ie: kill their opponent) and failing that with the amount of mana needed for grip, they must be ready with an attack to supplement it. On average, Force Grip does about 80 % damage before it wears off, if memory of the Force Faq serves.

The so called "Super/Sith Grip" bug/exploit/strategy tactic whatever you want to call it, will continue to grip the opponent until they die or the attack runs out of mana (thus protection and super shield are even more effective because they also render the attacker mana-less). The only thing to do would be to use the force surge in combination with Super/Sith Grip, but then they would still not do any damage and would be useless against say someone using Protection/Super Shield (assuming the attacker also used seeing and avoided being hit, to avod the other counters to grip).

6) To add to another problem, grip is only capable of attacking one victim at a time, and unlike the saber hit, or a stack of mines, a single attack is usually not enough to kill an opponent, but a somewhat sustained, focused attack. Thus all the while, the attacker is vulnerable to being sniped or stabbed in the back.

When you saber duel you have to get close to them to hit, which means that they also have a chance to hit you with their saber as well (risk/reward).

While saber range is somewhat shorter than grip range, the same holds true for grip. You have to get relatively close to the victim (and maintain a proper distance) in order to be effective. From long range, you can be shot at and have destruction thrown at you or you can be blinded, long before you get into grip range. Once in grip range, other attacks can be employed (namely one of if not THE deadliest weapon in the hands of experience.. the saber).

Now i would not have a problem with it if there was a way to counter it before it effected you.

Yes. Absorb prevents damage from grip before it hits you. Of course grip will still at least slow down your movement, so I won't use that as an example. If you are invisible due to persuasion, then you cannot be gripped, unless the attacker first uses force seeing (again, further depleting his mana pool). Also force powers can be combined. So if the victim is using both persuasion and absorb, then the attack must keep seeing on, while also making sure he combines his (non-damaging, but movement impeding) grip with another attack (usually the saber) to finish off his victim. If the victim escapes.. his mana is wasted.

If you grip somebody, and they turn on Protection, the grip damage and immobilizing effect IMMEDIATELY stop, but you'll notice the sound effects continue. Thus it has the effect of draining the attackers mana, while the victim is unaffected. A super shield renders the person virutally invulnerable, so no immobilizing effect would mean anything, unless the attacker was trying to

a) push the victim off a ledge, which would give them a self kill
b) stack a bunch of mines by them, killing them through the shield, but risking their own death in the process (and much more easily too since the attacker likely doesn't have protection himself, or if he did, if it was MotS, he would lack the mana to do so, unless he had the surge).

A Protected user is thus immune to grip. However the attacker will use grip as if it were a normal victim and his own mana will be wasted with every attempt (much more so with Super/Sith Grip).

You can counter everything else before they actually effect you (except force deadly sight which costs mana whether you hit or not). The only way to do that is to not let the other person see you, which would mean that you wouldnt be able to play the game as it was intended.


I'm afraid you're wrong here as well. Deadly Sight can be countered before it hits you by Persuasion (nobody can combine seeing and deadly sight except in MotS.. and notice that in Mots this is very difficult to do since Deadly Sight and Protection both use more mana than they do in JK, so a surge is necessary to combine). You can also prevent someone from using Deadly Sight by blinding them (a blinded person cannot see a target, thus Deadly Sight would not be able to be activated). Having force absorb on would also prevent Deadly Sight from doing anything more than charging up the victim's mana (and wasting the mana of the attacker). The Super shield would render Deadly Sight utterly usless.

Kurgan
02-18-2002, 12:43 AM
[cont'd]

As to the game "being intended" one way or not is speculation. Why would the developers, if they wanted only face to face, visible combat, put in positions in levels that were ideal to sniping? Why would they introduce a power that renders the user virutally invisible? Why would they put in long-range weapons into the game? Why would they put in mines, which render the possibility that an entire battle can be decided without any of the players ever physically seeing each other?

It seems more likely, in light of these factors, that the JK/MotS developers figured that <i>stealth</i> tactics would be an option for all players who chose to make use of them.

I myself greatly enjoy playing "honorable" Jedi one-on-one saber duels, however, I recognize and freely admit that there are numerous other styles of play possible in the games that can be just as much fun, if not more fun for other people. Some people even dislike the saber dueling (citing things such as "randomness" "lag" or "cheapness with the z-swing") and prefer other game modes. Implying that saber dueling is all there is to JK multiplayer is to deny the plethora of options the developers have built purposefully into the game, and the thousands of players who actively make use of them.

This is Jedi Knight after all.. not <i>Bushido Blade</i>.

I'd also like to quickly add that Force Defense in MotS seemed to have a limitation, it appeared that if the Defense user had the surge, the power was treated as if you had full mana (not infinite mana, as with all other force powers) thus a defense did it's job (lessening the effect of force powers, but not completely negating them) but only until they had used up a portion of mana equivalent to a full pool. I have not been able to verify this 100%, but I've read it in several places, and I notice for example that a level 4 defense user is not immune to force powers. But Defense DOES lessen the effects of grip, thus meaning even more mana or an effective counter attack is needed to finish off the victim. Defense is the only power that is "always on" but only drains mana when the person is being attacked with the force.

I think that these are the reasons that myself and other people, who you call n00bs, have a problem with it. You never heard this before because we either stopped playing most public multiplayer games that had full force, or we stopped playing all together.


I hate the term "newbie" (or 'n00b' as the young people are calling it nowadays) because it is so often misused. I always thought it properly referred to a neophyte.. someone who as newly initiated into something. Somebody who was not entirely knowledgable due to lack of experience. However, I usually see people use it as a simple generic insult to anyone they don't like, or who isn't as skilled at a game as they are (it's entirely theoretically possible a person can play a game for years and still not be as skilled as another person). Thus I try to avoid the term, unless I'm explicitly referring to someone who lacks experience (Ie: "I'm a newbie when it comes to using Windows 2000").

Your reasons are fine to explain why you don't like something, however my responses should open up the possiblity that your reasons were formed from incomplete or inaccurate data, that further experience would likely have shown you.

I suggest those interested should review the "Force FAQ" (available in several places, including Gamefaqs.com) and the Jediknight.net hosted site "Hisss' Rebel Strategy Guide" (http://www.jediknight.net/hiss/) for information on countering, and pros/cons of various force powers.

Also, I hope I didn't offend you in any way with my statements, I admit that when I played my first few games of JK multiplayer I was totally "0wned" by people who made good use of the force. I thought it was the cheapest thing in the world. But instead of quitting the game, I began to train, and try to learn from people who knew how to do these things, and eventually I was able to learn enough to be able to hold my own in battle using many of these same tactics, and many I had "invented" myself.

If JK2 follows in JK's footsteps, it is likely it will share a similar level of depth with regard to the force/counter force and weapon/counter weapon tactics built into the multiplayer module. This will encourage long-term play and development of tactics, in addition to varying player styles (notice they are segregating Dark and Light Force, already laying out the foundations for multiple styles). They key is variety.. and the key to mastery is to immerse yourself in that variety and be open to the various possiblities. But if you don't enjoy that, it's probably not the game for you...

(Apologies for the length, or repeating anything anybody else said, I just wanted to be thorough)

Kurgan

Chanke4252
02-18-2002, 01:00 AM
why i disagree with your post.


1. close range is different for everyone, but to me it means almost close enough to be hit with a melee attack, to you it may mean all the way across the level, and i understand that grip has its range issues, but you dont have to get into close range to use it.

2. Secondly, grip does more than 80% of the damage will full force powers enabled and uncountered.

3. It does not deplete your mana with absorb on unless you keep looking at them. If you look away it turns it off and you lose very little mana.

Kurgan
02-18-2002, 01:21 AM
1. close range is different for everyone, but to me it means almost close enough to be hit with a melee attack, to you it may mean all the way across the level, and i understand that grip has its range issues, but you dont have to get into close range to use it.

In other words "close range = saber range" since there are only three melee attacks in the game, and the saber is the only one that hits any farther away than actual physical contact of the polygons (required to punch or strike with the butt of the carbonite gun).

My point was that with grip you still had to get a lot closer to hit the person than you would if you were using blinding, or destruction, or deadly sight, or any gun, etc. Thus, grip puts you at more of a risk than these other long range attacks. Do you see the logic in my reasoning?

Most of the time, in order to grip a person, you get within saber range, which means you are vulnerable to saber hits (saber throw is a whole 'nother story).


2. Secondly, grip does more than 80% of the damage will full force powers enabled and uncountered.


Fair enough, however, I pointed out that multiple counters do exist, and that the grip strategy is not foolproof as a result. Are we to assume that nobody will use the force when faced with an attacker fond of using grip? Even a person who somehow is incapable of hitting the force buttons can press the fire key and hit the attacker, breaking off the grip attack.

3. It does not deplete your mana with absorb on unless you keep looking at them. If you look away it turns it off and you lose very little mana.

Fine, but by the same token, if you are not looking at him, then the victim will not be affected by an imobilization either. Plus looking away will mean that you are momentarily distracted. That split second that loses sight of your opponent could mean the difference between them escaping, or worse, killing you. With absorb, the mana they gain can be used in other ways, while the mana you LOST gripping them cannot be gained back that quickly.

Kurgan
02-18-2002, 01:43 AM
Also, to counter Obi's assertions.. you neglect to mention a few key things:

1) Despite notions of "honor" they can still use protection.

2) Despite the "difficulty" of using jump/speed, it can still be done.

3) You assume the person is a "saber only lightsider."

Now let's take this scenario... let's assume a light jedi is being all "Honorable" and running around only with the saber and his light side powers (and refusing to use protection). Now let's say he encouters a jedi that likes to use grip on him. What does he do?

1) Whine. Continue to stick to his "Honor" and refuse to use non saber weapons or protection.

2) Decide that since his opponent is not going to follow the rules he made for himself, that he should dispense (if temporarily) the notion of "honor" and opt to gather some guns, use protection (even rejoin with a protection character to counter the grip), etc.

I will say right now that I have beaten, as a light side jedi, without protection, many dark jedi who used grip on me. I also often opted to use protection because it made countering grip pathetically easy. However, I would hesitate to say it made the entire battle easy.

In JK, choosing protection means that you give up all neutral powers. That means you have no defense against blinding, you have to strain your eyes looking for particles floating around (because of persuasion) and you can't move around quickly with jump/speed. This makes you vulnerable to mines (since you can't detect them with seeing, speed over them, or use jump to take shortcuts over mined areas, although you can use rocket jump.. the drawback being every jump weakens your protection bubble and uses up a bit of ammo). Protection also makes you a highly visible target due to the noise and swirling particles around you (no chance for stealth now, even if you combine with persuasion).

In MotS, a Jedi could combine neutral powers with Protection, but Protection used up far more mana, thus it was very difficult to combine it with any power, without leaving yourself completely drained of mana (and thus unable to counter other powers) unless you hogged the surges. In addition, the carbonite gun went straight through protection and the Scout's Sniper Rifle (I can't say for certain about the regular scoped ST rifle anyone could pick up) still had the effect of "pushing" the victim back, thus making it possible to knock protection users off ledges, or into traps with well placed shots. The carbonite gun, like fists (which were increased in speed for MotS) did direct damage right through protection.

In both games, Protection was highly supseptable to multiple explosive and impact damage, meaning that stacked mines and multiple sticky rails could do serious damage, taking down the bubble rapidly. Sabers of course weakened the shield extensively, making it difficult to survive multiple hits. In JK, Protection used up a much smaller amount of mana, so it was possible to start the shield back up relatively soon after it was taken down, but not so in MotS.

But that's a seperate issue. The point is, grip had a lot of counters, again, using your same logic, I could say that blinding and persuasion were cheap if their victims refused to use force seeing (a "cheap" power that negates stealth), or mines if their victims refused to use seeing, speed, or jump (making the mines almost impossible to avoid hitting by accident).

A person who intends to win a game with "honor" when their opponents have no such illusions and are of equal or greater skill with THEIR tactics, is what I'd call "suicidal." ; )


Let's put it another way. I may feel like playing the game only with the saber and without force powers that will help me, but as soon as my opponents show that they have no plans to follow this same pattern (and assuming my goal is still to win), all bets are off.


In regards to lag, I don't think this is a valid argument. Lag affects EVERYTHING not just grip or the ability to counter it. It affects things in different ways true, but there's no way to accurately predict what will and won't be affected for different people. If you find the lag is so bad that grip is ineffective, then you either have to find another tactic, or find a better server. That's all there is to it. I've played in games where the lag was so bad guns didn't hit their targets, and even with splash damage, my enemies never seemed to die. I'm sure we've all ready about people denouncing saber dueling as being "impossible" over the internet due to "lag." So lag doesn't help that anti-grip argument in this case, since it's actually an argument against ALL force powers and weapons.

<b>[Update]</b>
Okay, perhaps I misunderstood the "saber only" thing. I assumed this player was in a level that had other weapons available but the person was just being "honorable" and not using them (the whole "honor of protection" thing distracted me into that mindset). ; )

So, let's say you're on a saber only level where no other weapons exist but fists and saber (in reality, even the "saber only" levels in JK usually feature the bryar pistol as well incidentally, though in MotS this is not the case). There is still the fact that a person getting close enough to grip you can be gripped themselves and is likely in saber range, meaning you can hit them, and break out of it.

However, if you do have other weapons available, a very good tactic to try is this... whilst being gripped, force jump into the air, and then FIRE DOWNWARD with the concussion rifle. The splash damage is so huge that they will likely be hit unless they knew what you were planning to do ahead of time. This serves the dual purpose of both freeing you from grip, and preventing you from taken the damage you normally would from a close range concussion shot (incidentally, a close range SECONDARY fire shot from a conc would both be unblockable by the attacker's saber, and not damage the user). I figure a similar tactic could be employed with any explosive weapon (rails, destruction, etc).

Yet another factor to add to the mix that I forgot before... the DISCIPLE (level 6) who can use a combination of dark and lightside powers (though with fewer stars than a level 7 or 8 jedi aand without access to the high level powers).

Thermal detonators are also harder to pull (since you have to pull each one individually) and can't be blocked (though the aiming can be tricky). Flash bombs, as used in MotS can also blind your attacker, preventing further grip use for a short time.

Obi
02-18-2002, 01:59 AM
<font color=cbcbff> I think some of you use the term "newbie" a little too loosely. Preferring to enjoy the game rather than cheap/mousejerk/hack/gloat your way to victory does not make you a newbie. You forget for challenge sake some of us "newbies" choose to play the game the way it was meant be played and not using every cheap trick/easy route there is just to win. Many Light siders play light because they have moral limitations(some of you "1337" folk might not understand the term "moral" but it applies to not liking to use certain techniques because they feel it takes the fun out of it and is just a downright dirty way to play) or because they just want to play on the more challenging side. It doesn't make anyone a newbie if they don't agree with being "elite" and full of yourself while putting down others and gloating every time you win that you "own" someone else. That is pathetic.

Redwing
02-18-2002, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt
First off, Redwing... You obviously have no idea how the Q3/JK2 (UT and T2 are the same) MP scene is. There is NO WAY for a dedicated server to be newbie only. A dedicated server sends it's IP and info to a master server that is happy to tell ANYONE with the client (ie the game) where it is. There is no way you can keep hardcore players from joining a game over the net.

Secondly, Chanke... There is no such thing as "over using" a power that is affective. If you don't like it, don't play.

You're right, I have no idea. I only have experience with the JK/MotS system, where the host can boot a player who isn't playing by the rules set by him or her. I don't really even know what a dedicated server is, to be honest. Since it seems JK2 will have Zone support, I assumed that would turn out as it did with Jk/MotS.

But I have to point out that since JK2 hasn't even been released yet, you can only be assuming yourself what the scene will be like. But I myself can certainly say I hope there aren't as many "leet" players on the scene who act like total jerks and waltz around gloating and demeaning other players who haven't had the time or opportunity to get as good as they have. If I have to point fingers, you are giving alot of people that impression, whether you intend to or not...and I'm sure you don't. So try lightening up a bit, please? :)

Now to read Kurgan's post...wow talk about Force long posting there :eek: ;)

DeathBoLT
02-18-2002, 02:28 AM
I think some of you use the term "newbie" a little too loosely. Preferring to enjoy the game rather than cheap/mousejerk/hack/gloat your way to victory does not make you a newbie. You forget for challenge sake some of us "newbies" choose to play the game the way it was meant be played and not using every cheap trick/easy route there is just to win. Many Light siders play light because they have moral limitations(some of you "1337" folk might not understand the term "moral" but it applies to not liking to use certain techniques because they feel it takes the fun out of it and is just a downright dirty way to play) or because they just want to play on the more challenging side. It doesn't make anyone a newbie if they don't agree with being "elite" and full of yourself while putting down others and gloating every time you win that you "own" someone else. That is pathetic.

Re-read all of Kurgan's posts under this topic. There, you will find that he's discussed everything you've just stated and proven it wrong.

Kurgan
02-18-2002, 02:36 AM
"newbie" and "elite" to me are apples and oranges almost.

Newbie: someone who lacks experience

Elite: someone who has a decent amount of skill, maybe even an excessive amount of skill, with regards to the people he has the potential of playing.

Skill: the ability to do something well, ie: with a high degree of success. Proficiency based on experience and practice.

Tactic: a way of doing something. move/counter move in response to situations and events.

A Newbie could be quite skilled (odd as that may sound). Let's say most people have not yet mastered the game, he could still win a lot, if he was good at certain things. Let's say nobody knows how to use any force power but grip, and he's really good with grip, but he hasn't been playing long. So he's going to have skills.

But, I would say that in order to be "elite" you could not be a newbie, since it would take time to gather that much skill and superior tact in the game.

I mean a player can be "elite" but then they meet somebody who is ten times better than them and they get beaten very badly. I've played games against people who were so good that I got NEGATIVE points, while they had positive. But then I've played many more games where I quickly dominated the game, or played "give and take" with the other top scorer.

That is a valid concern of the "casual" vs. "competative" gamers. I think the point WD and others are trying to make here is that there are people who play Star Wars games <b> primarily because they want to experience the movies</b>. Ie: they want to role play in the star wars universe. These people will be less concerned with using every tactic necessary in order to win.

The casual gamers who only want to see force powers/weapons/whatevers as seen in the movies or want only to play "honorably" (as defined in the movies) may be quite good, but they are choosing to give up certain tactics and skills in order to achieve their roleplaying fantasy (nothing wrong with that). But this means that they can't blame other players who choose to utilize all their skills to win. In short, they are putting themselves purposely at a disadvantage, and the competative players are not to blame for the casual gamers' choices on how to play.

Thus, casual gamers would be forced either to bite the bullet and accept losing often to competative gamers, or to avoid competative gamers altogether and stick with like minded players, to avoid frustration.

Now who are these casual gamers? They might be newbies, they might be skilled or even elite, but:
These are the folks who, will have their slow, drawn out saber duels (which are perfectly fine, I have played many of them myself, they can be quite fun). But these people cannot expect other players, who are trying to win, using all tactics available (short of using illegal cheats) to be forced to obey those same rules.

Now I should say that being elite also requires you remember your tactics enough over time (you don't get "rusty") and that you continue to practice to maintain your level of skill. An elite player could become rusty and appear to lack skill until he "got it back again" (that happened to me many times when I would not play the game for a month or more, then come back to it). A Newbie will cease to be one after a certain amount of experience. At what point does he cease to be a newbie? I can't tell you, but I can guarentee if you've been playing the game for three years, you're not a "newbie" even if you're the worst player in the world.

A "Casual gamer" doesn't have to be a permanet position either. I was elite in my day (I bet if I joined a game right now I'd get my butt handed to me though, considering I haven't played in so long), but even in my prime of JK/MotS skills, I would often take a break from competative gaming to play casually. That was lots of fun, I had many great saber duels, complete with witty dialouge and flashy moves to impress my dueling partners. But the point is, I realized I was holding back stuff I could have used to win in those situations. The entire game was setup to allow competative gaming, and as a result, one has to realize that one can't force that on everyone.

If you bought the game soley for casual gaming, you're going to have to accept the fact that not everyone will share your opinions or respect them.

I mean if you host a server, and you say "one on one honor duels only" and somebody starting speeding around with the concussion rifle and destructing everyone, you can kick them (and you'd be right to do it as the server admin), but most public servers likely won't have that kind of fine tuned control. The options will be set, and the game will go on, the admin only pausing to kick a cheater, or somebody who's lagging the server really badly (assuming the admin is even watching the game at the moment.. keep in mind dedicated servers need not have the host actually physically in the game).

My arguments were in favor of JK/MotS, mainly because people were making the argument that grip shouldn't be this or that in JK2 BECAUSE it "sucked" or was "cheap" in JK. If I could make a case that it didn't suck or wasn't cheap in JK, then wouldn't that cast doubt on the assumption that it must be different in JK2, or it would also be "cheap" or "suck"?

I'm certain that even the most elite of elite JK/MotS players will have plenty to learn and will not automatically be as elite as they were before going into JK2. They will be newbies just like everyone else (newbies: lacking in experience) and will have to learn how to play the game and the differences.

However, many of the same skills will be applicable, no matter what, such as the hand eye coordination, and the understanding of tactics (ie: not assuming everybody is going to be honorable and thus allowing you to drop your guard).

With an "Arena" type dueling mode, I'm sure the "movie role-player" type people can have their fun, but at the same time, they should allow the more competative minded players to have their's as well.

Zx2
02-18-2002, 02:39 AM
jk2 should make it fairly easy to counter choke

i.e. say you're in a lvl akin to votjt (tower)
ur on the land pad and ur opponent has u in a grip, there are several things which may occur:

1.your opponent goes flying from the landpad courtesy of force push
2.your opponent rushes towards you and is beheaded by ur thrown saber (because u cant block from behind, so when ur saber comes back itll take off his head; if he turns around to block, loss of eyesight and the grip is broken)
3. you force jump out of it
4. you choke him, so both of u r hoverin in mid air, slowly dying

DeathBoLT
02-18-2002, 02:54 AM
i suspect the lifting them in the air effect is not going to be present in mp..

Redwing
02-18-2002, 03:25 AM
I'd be surprised, since they haven't mentioned that, and it seems kinda major...

More likely there's a more effective counter.

WD_ToRMeNt
02-18-2002, 01:55 PM
I think Grip is a MP only force power and grip will be able to immobalize you because it lifts you off the ground (sounds cool).

Let me explain skill levels a bit.

Newbie: This does have many meanings. It's a person who is either new to the game or just isn't very good. There TONS of people who have played for 2+ years and still have no clue.

Average: Knows more and is more experienced then a newbie, but still couldn't maintain a score of more then 0 against an expert/elite.

Good: A person who has "got the idea." He/she doesn't waste force stars on blind/persuasion/throw/lightning and would laugh at protection/deadly site. They should know better to use anything other then conc/rail/saber for weapons. They also prolly use force speed all the time and know a few moves.

Expert: This is where it gets intresting. Experts know a great deal about the lag system. They also know a great deal of moves and jumps in the levels the good players like (Oasis/BGJ). They will always be using seeing + map in FF games and they will time the surge and vest.

Elites: Best of the best. They know just about everything there is to know about the game (or at least in thier specialty). They have the best grip, aim, timing, and movement. But even more more important, they play with thier head to outsmart thier opponents.

Kurgan
02-18-2002, 02:18 PM
I disagree with you there WD (assuming that certain powers are absolutely useless to a true "elite") but I won't argue it here (we've already been down that road enough times). ; )

A dedicated server, to put it simply, is a game that's up all the time.

Now many modern MP FPS games have a dedicated server option.

Usually what this will entail is a person (assumed to have a very high speed and fairly stable connection) will run a server program on their end, which will run the game in a plaintext box (thus saving their machine from having to render all the models, textures, etc). Thus it's not like when you host a game of JK, where you too are "physically" in the game. Although you can join your own server (but then of course your computer takes a performance hit, to run the game with you in it).

The benefits of having a dedicated server (only really feasible to maintain in a Client/Server based game, verses a Peer to Peer one like JK/MotS or IIRC Outlaws) is that it can be up indefinately, and the IP can be posted at various sites for people to join.

Think of a set of dedicated servers as "public games" for an entire part of the country, or the world (community at least). Some may be dedicated to certain themes or rules, and an admin may pop in (via remote control, or by joining her own game) from time to time to check on things, but generally, they'll have the options set, and the maps cycle. Sometimes they'll have voting systems, to take some of the load off of admins, but it depends on the game. Some use mods.

The games are up all the time, and they are run on fast connections (if the host was smart) so it gives a fast game to join anytime (in theory).

That of course doesn't mean with DS that people can't play private games, or just fire up a game in the traditional way, or use a service like "the Zone" but the point is, with this system, you would have another option, and for some, this may even be a more desirable option.

What Dedicated Servers *should* do (as I see it) is break the monopoly a service like the Zone would have on a game like JK2 without them (as it did with JK1), that is, unless LEC makes some exclusive deal with Microsoft again.

But consider the Quake series.. most supported on the Zone, but very few people actually play there, compared to the ones who use the dedicated servers and off of the Zone. Now compare this with JK/MotS, where the vast majority has always been on the Zone (since it's adoption). Since I myself didn't particularly care for the atmosphere and rules of MSN's gaming service (though it was free of course), this would be a welcome change, to my mind.
; )

WD_ToRMeNt
02-18-2002, 03:02 PM
Hehe play me and I'll prove to you once and for all how useless some powers are.

Email: Savage@wdonline.com
MSN: JSavage47@hotmail.com
ZN: WD_ToRMeNt
ICQ: I forgot :p

StAtilXl
02-18-2002, 03:34 PM
its true lots of powers are useless if u r playin some1 who knows what there doin :D

StAtilXl
02-18-2002, 03:36 PM
I used to play ff butnow i stick to bgj nf

zn: WielD_StAtilXl

DeathBoLT
02-18-2002, 03:40 PM
I tend to classify people in 2 categories:

- newbie/starwarsrgpers/mod-addonlevel players
the reason they tend to stay weak as far as skill goes is because they are not constantly learning new tactics, pushing themselves to keep up the tactics, and actively practicing and honing their skills. I probably have been more critical of them than I should have in this thread, as there is nothing really wrong with pretending their jedi, playing mods, add-on levels actively, etc.

- competitive gamers
The reason these guys are so good at the game is that their playing to win, pioneering new tactics, and constantly forcing themeselves to get better at what they do. When you're trying to be the best, dominate ladders, win tournies, etc. you're going to push yourself to goto levels of skill that are far beyond what someone belonging to newbie/starwarsrpgers/mod-add-onlevel players group has. At least in JK where difficulty in joining in on a game and picking up the new tactics is much higher, than that of say, quake(which would only take a few weeks to get fairly good at). As far as grading people(who wish to become the best) for skill in this category, is generally, those who suck, those who are getting there, and the very top, elite/expert/top competitive gamer/whatever who have pretty mastered the tactics neccessary to win and are developing new ones themselves. The best clans like DSbr, JaG, etc. would accept nothing less than the very top. Mediocre clans like Prince, etc. typically consist of those who suck and those who are getting there.

Silent_Thunder
02-18-2002, 04:09 PM
As I said in another post, I think the best way to make grip in JO is to make the attacker also imoble while gripping. But I believe that it was already said in another review that you could run up and hack at your victom while gripping, so I suppose that's out of the question.

WD_ToRMeNt
02-18-2002, 04:31 PM
Deathbolt, I agree with your concept but I'd call that a division in type of players and communities not one of skill.

Newbie/average makes up the Non-competative community, and expert/elites make up the competative group. There are people who are good (judging by the skill levels ive posted earlier) and are in between the two. Most howerver want to be part of the competative scene.

Redwing
02-18-2002, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt
I think Grip is a MP only force power and grip will be able to immobalize you because it lifts you off the ground (sounds cool).


Actually, it was confirmed first for SP...described as being fun to use on stormies. Why would it be MP only anyway?

As for the classifications, I agree with DeathBoLT, except for classifying newbies as the same as RPGers, etc. A newbie is someone who's new to the game, regardless whether they want to compete or play out the movies. (I should know---I was a newbie who wanted to compete...)