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View Full Version : Major Gameplay Flaw


Eternity
02-16-2002, 08:13 AM
S'up guys, hate to break this happy bubble that is surrounding us right now due to the fancy trailers and pics and whatnot, but I thought this deserved some attention.

I'm talking about sabre dueling. I was worrying about this long before the review complained about it; and now that they gave it voice, I'm worried. According to one person, they said that 'most duels can be won by getting behind the enemy and sabre throwing them.' This would really decrease the skills necessary to win in multi-player.

Thoughts? Feedback? Spitting at my feet?

TUS_Tomcat
02-16-2002, 08:19 AM
untrue



IMHO

Agen
02-16-2002, 08:28 AM
what about turning round?
or about blocking over u back like obi wan

Zodiac
02-16-2002, 08:30 AM
:D Just turn around. :) Just like in JK1, don't lose sight of ur opponent and he won't get behind you. ;)

StormHammer
02-16-2002, 08:36 AM
Very sound advice, Zodiac.

Here are some basic rules of engagement...

1. Always watch your back.
2. Shoot straight, duck fast and run like hell...
3. Don't forget to ignite your saber before you throw it. :D

TUS_Tomcat
02-16-2002, 08:38 AM
also:


Dont forget your saber.

:)

gamebooger
02-16-2002, 08:49 AM
simple solution if this is true. in MP just don't lose sight of your opponent. in SP if it bothers you don't use that sort of attack. problem solved(except people could sneak up behind you in MP. :().

Agen
02-16-2002, 08:59 AM
i wonder if u can whack people on the head witrh your saber unignited

Ushgarak
02-16-2002, 09:11 AM
I just mentioned this in the thread about the review.

I agree, it is very worrying.

It is all very well for you people to say that it is untrue and you should just turn around. But this guy has PLAYED through the game, and says that it is a tactic that works against all opponets you meet in the game, including the bosses.

Never minding multi-player fir a moment, such a flaw would ruin the singleplayer game, as far as duelling is concerned.

And then one would assume that, if the AI sabreists are programmed with any competence at all, then this would also reflect a highly effective tactic in multi-player as well, and one that requires virtually no skill.

I don't think the reveiw made it out as an unbeatable tactic, just one that is far more effective than actually closing and fighting, which would be a damn shame.

CaptainRAVE
02-16-2002, 09:19 AM
I dont think it is at all worrying. In Star Wars does Luke ever turn his back on Vader.......NO........it just doesnt happen. And if someone did do a force throw on you there are multiple options available.........force jump, side dodge or turn around and block.....simple :D

Ushgarak
02-16-2002, 09:22 AM
My best hope is that the reviewer was just rubbish at sabre fighting. So he adpated to a tactic that worked against the AI but will be crud against humans.

TUS_Tomcat
02-16-2002, 09:42 AM
maybe he only played on easy?!?


i mean come on think about it...


WHO here, is gonna let an enemy you're dueling, first of all, get behind you, and second, give him enough time, to aim, and throw his saber at you...

i wonder what his enemy was doing all that time... reading the PC Gamer!?!??!

DarthLocutus
02-16-2002, 09:44 AM
I find it hard to believe with (at least) two dedicated AI programmers on board that they wouldn't have programmed the AI to turn around when you jump over their heads. It doesn't make much sense to me.

The AI will be better than JK at least. Even on hard the saber fights were **** easy in SP. And it didn't hurt the game's popularity.

[Edit - Stormy - swearing :tsk: ]

Ushgarak
02-16-2002, 09:50 AM
Well, he wasn't playing it on easy and he seemed pretty sure that it worked. As to WHY it works; your guess is as good as mine.

Lord_FinnSon
02-16-2002, 12:00 PM
This can also be intentional, you know? Your back is one of those places in your body which can be injured so many ways and can't be easily protected, so one strike or throw in there must be leathal; or do you think you are going to survive after your spine is broken? Either the guy playing the game simply had an opportunity to get behind enemies and throw his saber, before they could turn around OR there is "Major Gameplay Flaw" involved. It can also depend on who he was fighting againts: little crooks and Stormies might not have fast reflexes, while Reborns and Dark Jedis cover themselves much more carefully.

Eternity
02-16-2002, 12:20 PM
I think the point here is that it renders Force powers and other tactics useless. Who cares about multi-player for the moment; if you could just run like hell behind the enemy and stick a saber in his back in single player mode, it kinda sucks.

You could blather on about not going behind the enemy to make it fun, but honestly, who are you kidding?

My main concern that force powers are pretty, but don't need to be used.

Silent_Thunder
02-16-2002, 12:51 PM
This seems like a thread the devs would probably like to straighten out , but the lack of response from the devs makes me think it's possible that this is indeed true.

However, the game still hasn't been released yet, and the reviews must have only been previewing the beta version. And that's one of the main points of beta, isn't it? To find and destroy bugs and imbalances? If this is actually a game flaw, I believe it will be fixed before the game comes out. Or we can just play multiplayer with "No Force LS Throw allowed!", but the SP will still be ruined.

I'm going to give JO a fair chance, by waiting and seeing for myself.

But if there is an imbalance, please fix it devs! :)

StormHammer
02-16-2002, 01:08 PM
Okay, on a more serious note, if this is some kind of flaw in the game, then I'm sure the Ravenites will take note and try to tweak it before the game ships...or failing that, perhaps release a patch to deal with any of these issues. ;)

ChangKhan[RAVEN]
02-16-2002, 01:27 PM
You all do realize, of course, that they were reviewing a pre-beta version of the game that is, in all likelihood, at least a month and a half old... :)

CaptainRAVE
02-16-2002, 01:28 PM
^The man has spoken

How can you call it a review then.......the final version would get about 95% :D

Silent_Thunder
02-16-2002, 01:31 PM
It was pre-beta?? I thought it was beta... Well, that pretty well takes away all my fears about saber throw imbalances, though I did assume it would be fixed before release.

StormHammer
02-16-2002, 01:37 PM
Thanks for that ChangKhan. ;)

I'm sure you've allayed some fears.

And I'm inclined to agree with Rave...that PCGamer score is meaningless if they did not actually have the final build of the game. :p

Eternity
02-16-2002, 02:19 PM
You all do realize, of course, that they were reviewing a pre-beta version of the game that is, in all likelihood, at least a month and a half old...

*thumps Stormhammer on the back*

Wheeee! :) That dispels some fears.

ps2maddenman
02-16-2002, 02:27 PM
"And I'm inclined to agree with Rave...that PCGamer score is meaningless if they did not actually have the final build of the game."

And I am also, that is why PC Gamer US will not review a game unless it is a retail version, that is why this game will probably be rated higher than 93% in the US version.


my2sentz

JPMaximilian
02-16-2002, 02:52 PM
Some of you guys act like Raven does NO beta testing. Like Raven only programs some stuff into the game and then it goes onto the shelves. They test the game thoroughly before it ships. Glitches do get through the tests, but not a "major gameplay flaw" that would ruin the whole experience.

Eternity
02-16-2002, 02:57 PM
That's not what PC Gamer said, but no matter, now.

dazilla
02-16-2002, 03:48 PM
"I dont think it is at all worrying. In Star Wars does Luke ever turn his back on Vader.......NO........it just doesnt happen. And if someone did do a force throw on you there are multiple options available.........force jump, side dodge or turn around and block.....simple"

Also, you can push the saber out of the air with Force Push, if I remember correctly...(maybe you can even steal it out of the air and have two sabers then!)...but then that would completely make saber throw impractical whenever you're fighting a force user.

TUS_Tomcat
02-16-2002, 03:48 PM
(think Anakin style):

YIPPEEEE!!!!!!!!!





*gets beaten up*


:)

Dan12R
02-16-2002, 03:57 PM
While I don't doubt that the reviewers did experience this, let's remember, pre-beta. What's the point of reviewing pre-beta anyways? I've heard of cases where theere's a big difference between pre-beta and the final product. I've downloaded beat versions of programs and the final is a lot different. So if there is a major problem like this, I'm sure the developers will fix it. Especially now that they know about it.

Agen
02-16-2002, 03:58 PM
PC Gamer Uk's Scores are meaningless in almost everyway. they never review gold and they sometimes under-rate and over-rate. RTCW was good but not that good, Hitman was a thinking man's game not a fps as the reviewer thought.

StephenG
02-16-2002, 04:03 PM
i read in one preview (sorry, forget the preview site) that you automaticly lock on (meaning if get behind him a then the other guy with the saber turn to face you and vice-versa) your saber counterpart in SP, is this still true. i'm not making this up i did read it somewhere. ii'l try looking for that preview.

Agen
02-16-2002, 04:16 PM
Hmmmm peculiar.... maybe that's how raven have fixed it.

Eternity
02-16-2002, 04:27 PM
I wouldn't see why Raven would allow them to review a beta. It only hurts them.

Agen
02-16-2002, 04:34 PM
It's LucasArts that control the game.

Obi
02-16-2002, 04:36 PM
<font color=cbcbff> If you remember the trailer, you know that it's also possible to block saber thow with your lightsaber. The only way you <i>could</i> hit another jedi is from behind.

Krak3n
02-16-2002, 04:56 PM
for me this isn't very worrying....mainly cos i know the basics, never loose sight of the enemy and always be watchful, but aslo listening can play a big part especially if you have suround sound, u can hear the direction people are comeing from. Anyway you could always avoid the saber through by force jumping over it :p

Btw, anyone know if it is possible to straffjump in JO or have they made it impossible like in wolf or moh?

Ushgarak
02-16-2002, 05:02 PM
It DOES seem odd to let them review something that is not a sufficient representation of the finished game.

No matter what tactical points people make here, the issue boils down to only two things:

1. Was the reviewer correct?
2. Will it be the same in the finished game?

And, for all you may think of PCG, the reviewer (the editor, in fact) is no fool. If he says that is the best way to fight in single player then, even if he is not literally correct, it ws very worrying.

DarthLocutus
02-17-2002, 01:46 AM
Ush,

You keep saying the same thing mate, when you are being presented with facts which should calm your fears (even from devs). Let me say again, JK will be and was worse in SP sabering AI. I could win a fight in 10 seconds on hard. It did not affect JK's success in the slightest, because noone cared. MP is where it's at, and I'll bet my right leg that this "tactic" will be void there.

Ushgarak
02-17-2002, 07:50 AM
That's all nonsense.

I don't see how JK's crap sabre fighting should make any difference to how I feel about this.

And you are totally wrong so say that MP is where it is at; single player is still the most important focus for these games, as nearly all developers will tell you. YOU may prefer multi-player but the majority still think single player is more important.

I appreciate it is an early version. That is why I said it is ok if the flaw does not finally exist. If the developers DIRECTLY say that this was a flaw in the pre-beta that will not exist in the final version then I will be perfectly happy. As it is, all I can do is HOPE that is the case, and be annoyed at PCG for reviewing such an early version.

daviddg4
02-17-2002, 07:20 PM
Relax Ushgarak
Everyone has their own openion on this matter okay. We should all wait for the game and see what happens if it is only a flaw it can be fixed but no game is perfect as all games have flaws. Personaly i don't care as you will be too busy defending and planing your tactics in saber dueling and also you will have little time to think. I am sure everything will turn out fine in the game and all we have to do is wait patiently and see the end result on this ' Major Gameplay Flaw'

Chanke4252
02-17-2002, 07:39 PM
as long as saber throw isnt autotarget like force choke is, and there is a risk/reward point involved, then its ok with me, i dont feel strongly about it one way or another.
.

daviddg4
02-17-2002, 07:46 PM
I agree
I am not bothered about this 'flaw'
i will not use this tactic of going behind an enemy and using saber throw as it is just unfair and also dishonerable in my openion

Chanke4252
02-17-2002, 07:57 PM
I will probably tend to think of it the same way i think about kicking dirt in someone's eyes. Its not something thats smiled upon, but at least there are some defenses, such as getting out of the way or turning around really quick.

daviddg4
02-17-2002, 08:05 PM
good concept/openion

Redwing
02-17-2002, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by Chanke4252
as long as saber throw isnt autotarget like force choke is, and there is a risk/reward point involved, then its ok with me, i dont feel strongly about it one way or another.
.

I don't see any reason why it would be, in multiplayer that is; in single player perhaps an auto aim option affects saber throw as well...if so, I'll just turn off auto aim. Although if it was auto target like you said, then I can see why it would become *too* effective...

Chanke4252
02-17-2002, 08:37 PM
I was really just trying to convey how much i hate force grip. But I think saber throw will be pretty good for a few reasons. 1- its not instant hit 2- its not auto aim 3- its blockable and avoidable.

Silent_Thunder
02-17-2002, 10:52 PM
"I agree
I am not bothered about this 'flaw'
i will not use this tactic of going behind an enemy and using saber throw as it is just unfair and also dishonerable in my openion"--daviddg4

Well, luckly you won't have to do that, since it's fixed now anyways...

digl
02-17-2002, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by Chanke4252
I was really just trying to convey how much i hate force grip. But I think saber throw will be pretty good for a few reasons. 1- its not instant hit 2- its not auto aim 3- its blockable and avoidable.
Its auto aim in the strongest level, and follows all the targets that are close to you

Chanke4252
02-17-2002, 11:00 PM
Its autofollow at strongest level? well, at least its not instant damage like choke.

digl
02-17-2002, 11:09 PM
From the PC gamer UK review:
...Saber Throw; which in its fundamental state fires out in a straight line and returns to your hand. Times two, it becomes controllable while in mid-air, and at full strength it has a mind of its own. Seeking out multiple enemies when launched...

Emon
02-18-2002, 12:17 AM
1. The saber throw SHOULD instantly kill a guy from behind if he's hit. A lightsaber is VERY powerful.

2. The above would only happen if your dumb enough to not turn around and either block the saber or blast the opponent into oblivion with your repeating rifle before it hits you.

DarthLocutus
02-18-2002, 02:05 AM
Ush,

You a spouting nonsense now, not I. You see even you will complete the SP campaign eventually. Then what? Play it again? *yawn*. There would be no community for JK if it didn't have any multiplayer. It would have died a quick death. That's because players are always going to be better than AI, and there is *no* challenge in beating it.

JK was pathetic in AI, and JKII will be better. That's all you can ask. I will win the SP campaign whether I can do this "jump then ST move" or not. I will then kill you in MP. End of discussion.

daviddg4
02-18-2002, 11:15 AM
how do you know Silent_Thunder?

Naphtali
02-19-2002, 03:41 AM
Question will grip work on against others who are strong with the force?

I see that captain much like myself is just saying wait for the game.
Aside all the talk did you guys ever think how you would get behind a person in a duel to do the lightsaber throw SP or MP, got to play the game for that. 2ndly wouldn't it be difficult to attack, block, counter attack and then make moves to go behind the enemy whos in your face. Unless ofr course you use the disable AI code.

this has gone on because of paranoid people getting bruise over a game they havent played