View Full Version : Saber locking woryy (from uk article)

02-19-2002, 04:44 AM
Hmm ive just read the pc gamer article and i have one worry about the saber fighting.. im mainly talkin about how this will affect the multiplayer aspect of the game.. i quote the uk pc gamer atricle..

"In these situations (when the sabers lock) movement stops and whoever hits the firebutton fast enough wins the 'lock', gaining a momentary advantage over their stumbling partner.."

does this mean that saber fighting might turn into a button mashing contest when these locks happen.. and how is ping/lag gonna affect this..

also one other worry.. it specifically says supported resolutions of 640x480 up to 1280x1024.. ive heard this somewhere else ont he forums.. but didnt realise this was a specific statement.. this is the 1st quake 3 engine game i know of that wont support 1600x1200.. i hope this isnt true.. has anyone else heard confirmation if this is true or not.. :confused:

02-19-2002, 05:07 AM
OMG, they made it a button smashing contest? I'm so dissapointed.... :(. I thought Raven/Lucasarts were above this.

02-19-2002, 05:44 AM
The "button mashing" you refer to was a prominent feature in the excellent Bushido Blade series (in case you aren't familiar, a one on one blade-based fighting game, with full 3d movement on the PSX). Once you locked blades, it was a contest of button tapping to see who came out on top (if you won, you'd shove your opponent back and off balance, sometimes even knocking them over).

Of course, this goes back earlier to wrestling games, where button mashing determined who came out on top in a grapple.

It's meant to simulate the struggle and tension, but who knows how well it will work out in an FPS. I imagine in a low lag situation, it should be perfectly fine. Although use of rapid-fire joystick buttons would definately give an advantage in this area.

The only real drawback I can see if this were included in the multiplayer game, would be if you were having a saber duel with someone, and your blades locked, but you wanted to disengage (say you saw somebody sneaking up behind you) or otherwise be left vulnerable. Could you do so?

That's one thing I'm wondering about.. is JK2 going to end up being bogged down in user scripts that take the challenge out of a lot of the "special techniques" or not?

02-19-2002, 06:04 AM
From what i've read the pc-gamer uk reveiwed the pre-beta release...so I doubt there will be a lot of struggle in winning saber-locks in the final game.

This is the problem in reveiwing unfinished games....a lot of the features don't get fair reviews.

I've believe no one would want to replace their mouse due the button smashing to win saber-locks.;)


02-19-2002, 06:15 AM
I doubt this will be a problem. All Raven has to do is make it so the sabers only lock for a second or so (instead of Bushido Blade 2, you were locked until someone wins). They could make it so if both people were hitting the fire button just as fast at the end of the second, that they are both pushed back alittle. Then it would be more a match of reaction time than button mashing.

02-19-2002, 06:54 AM
This will be fine as long as it really is another person mashing the button and not using a script that enables repetitive firing bound to a key.

02-19-2002, 07:01 AM
I'm sure that whatever they end up doing will be the right thing to do for this game to turn out to be an excellent single AND multiplayer game. I, personally, am not worried one bit by the PC Gamer UK article... they aren't even rating a finished product. I am 1000% ( Yes, that's not a typo... I'm one thousand percent ) sure that Jedi Outcast will be a great game. I will still manage to have loads of fun with it... even if a few really cool features are omitted or messed with to make them not as cool as they may have been. ( I haven't heard anything like that happening... but even if it did, it'd still be ok. )

Oh, and by the way... yes... this is my first POST on these boards.... but I've been viewing them since about when this forum was created... I am very excited about Jedi Outcast as well as many of you. I'm just saying this so you don't have to give me a huge welcome... I know the ropes.

02-19-2002, 07:27 AM
I dont like the button mashing idea, and hopefully the lag will add a randomizing effect or something, or maybe there will be a random factor implemented into the button mashing game just for the purposes of getting around lag. I dont know how thats going to work but I was wondering how are the saber locks initiated???

On the topic Kurgan brought up about disengaging the saber locks......

Force push at its highest level can disengage saber locks is what I heard from some official source a week or so ago, cant remember where though. Anyway it says that you can disengage saber locks or force push more than one enemy at a time (like in the phantom menace) with force push maxed out. I dont see why it has to be maxed to its highest level but I guess we'll see when it all comes out wont we.

02-19-2002, 07:44 AM
I think that the "saber lock" will be something that basically happens when two light saber weilding players run into eachother face to face and each swing at the same time. At that point I think the "saber lock" would be initiated and it would only last for a moment or two until one person force pushed their opponent back or they used their strength/momentum/whatever to physically shove the other person back a few feet. I think it'll happen quickly so people won't have to worry about being in a vulnerable position to other players.

02-19-2002, 08:32 AM
It doesn't mean repeatedly bashing the button. Its the first guy to press fire once the sabers lock. The sabers lock for a very short time, once they lock the player who presses fire first will gain a slight advantage with a nice animation. If your fast enough, you can Force Push out of a saber lock as well, a very cool effect similar to what Darth Maul did to Obi-Wan in Ep 1.

That line in the article was misleading, I hope this clears it up.

Another point, the finished version will be no different to the one PC Gamer reviewed. All Raven are doing at the moment is fixing a few minor bugs and generally streamlining the code. LEC were happy to give PCG:UK that version to review, which means there content that the game in its current state is as good as its going to get.

PC Gamer Uk is the finest games magazine on the planet, ignore the criticism and go and buy it, people.

02-19-2002, 09:29 AM
maybe they should add a "rapid-fire" button on the keyboard, since people with gamepads that have a rapid fire will be at an advantage over "average" players.

02-19-2002, 12:31 PM
we dont know exactly how It will work, I wont believe everything said in PCG UK if they call review a preview made with an old beta version
about the gamepads, Its not something to care about at all
the really few people that would use gamepads would have a huge disadvantage while aiming and moving

02-19-2002, 02:13 PM
Well you can review a beta easily.........All you must do is ignore the bugs and not let them influence the final score. No new features will be added after the beta anyway.

02-19-2002, 02:59 PM
im really looking forward to saber locking in multiplayer, maybe it will be a way to stop people from running around at 100mph. And on the subject of force push I just feel the need to express how excited I am about it and all the rest of the neutral powers (WE LOVES US SOME NEUTRAL FORCE POWERS).

Tre Lightshadow
02-19-2002, 03:13 PM
Maybe by fastest, they simply mean the first person to press the button, not the person who pushes it the most...

02-19-2002, 03:16 PM
I really hope so...otherwise it would go down to whoever has the best hardware :(

02-19-2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Redwing
I really hope so...otherwise it would go down to whoever has the best hardware :(

That sorta goes without saying as far as the Q3 engine is concerned to begin with, mind you... :)

02-19-2002, 03:26 PM
Do you think that the stances will be a factor in the saber-locks? (ie. a heavy stance would have an advantage because his heels are dug into the ground.)

and what about saber-locks in SP?

02-19-2002, 04:51 PM
Just use Force Push to break saber locks.;)


02-19-2002, 04:57 PM
Or Force Knee them in the balls :D

02-19-2002, 05:20 PM
This sounds really bad...

I'm sure some one could write a script or something to make the "fire" button repeat at speeds not human could move thier finger at.

I definately agree with the idea of making JK2 into a "button smashing" game is utterly revolting. This has better NOT make it into MP.

Silent Wolf
02-19-2002, 05:25 PM
It amazes me the amount of respect you are giving to this UK article. UK pc gamer hasnt carried a lot of respect in the past, and i personally have found there reviews to be far off from my personal tastes. Just wait for the demo :D

02-19-2002, 05:40 PM
I'm not that worried. Its not like everyones going to use that move every time.

02-19-2002, 06:11 PM
1. How else would you do a saber lock? There's really no other way than button mashing. Who can press the button harder? Well that isn't possible. It's not a button mashing fest, only one situation calls for rapid button pressing.

2. It's doubtful the game will even have joystick support, so rapid fire buttons aren't a problem.

3. As for lag, since the sabers would lock for a specified time everytime (may be different each time), the button tap recording can simply be done locally, then when the time is up it syncs it over the network, compares data and whoever got more clicks in X seconds wins. It's that simple.

02-19-2002, 06:26 PM
I forget where I read this, but........I read that the only way to a do a saber lock was for both of you to be in the heavy stance and both swing at the same time. I could be wrong on this, but it does make sense.

02-19-2002, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Emon

2. It's doubtful the game will even have joystick support, so rapid fire buttons aren't a problem.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't JK have joystick support?

02-19-2002, 07:51 PM
1. [SWS]Strider, I said that it may be like that, where you need to be in the heavy stance, but probably not.

2. StarScrape, JK does have joystick support, but that does not mean that JK2 will. I believe all Quake III Arena or Quake III Team Arena based games do not support the joystick. It's rather useless for the genre, especially when they are this fast-paced.

02-19-2002, 08:14 PM
hum, first one to push the mouse button wins the saber lock..................this game will call on reflex more than many others...

02-19-2002, 09:18 PM
It seems there's two basic possibilites here...

1) Whoever swings first gets the advantage

2) Whoever presses fire the most times within X seconds gets the advantage.

Now, I'm sorry, but 2) would be extremely lame. IMO it woould really screw gameplay, since smart players would just write scripts like WD_T said, or use a rapid fire joystick button. So basically, whoever cheated or had better hardware would win every time. Not good...not good at all.

FYIs: JK did have joystick support, and it is completely unconfirmed as to whether or not the saber stances will have anything to do with locking. That was just a theory put forward a little back.

02-19-2002, 10:01 PM
It's possible there will be a time delay between the execution of multiple user script command statements. This would reduce the advantage of scripting in this kind of situation.

02-19-2002, 10:11 PM
Even beyond scripting, I'm guessing some one will figure out a way to input rapid fire commands. Who knows, maybe we'll see rapid fire bots in addition to aimbots.

02-20-2002, 12:32 AM
Dude there are going to be broken mouses all over the world. :(

02-20-2002, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Emon

2. It's doubtful the game will even have joystick support, so rapid fire buttons aren't a problem.

Actually, JK2's engine is actually a modified Q3:TA engine which does support joysticks/gamepads. This is also stated in another forum here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=32328)

02-20-2002, 06:19 PM
1. Who actually has a rapid-fire joystick? They hardly make them, and they usually aren't in gamepads. Besides, the control with a gamepad or joystick would suck so much that it's not worth it.

2. If a person cheats with scripts, kick them! You don't even know if you can do that in JK2 yet, they said they have numerous new anti-cheat measures. This isn't something to worry about.

3. How else do you solve a saber lock? Make it random? Make it depend on health? Well that just plain sucks right there.

Imp Destroyer
02-20-2002, 06:45 PM
i think that i read somewhere that the saber lock is a button. and as for those people who say a joystick is waste of time for a FPS, i use a joystick/trackball (when i get the game) and i will kick your butt if you use a keyboard/mouse
i use the mouse for sniping!

02-20-2002, 09:30 PM
OK, get this. Your in a saber lock, you use fore push to push the ignition button on the other person's saber, his/her saber goes out. I think there was a guy that said everything pushed on gives the same and oppisit push. well your pushing on his saber, his goes out, your still pushing, your saber goes right through the other persons body, you win. HOT DAMN! I found a flaw in the game, now i'm gona post it and make a big deal out of it, and not forget to try to prove my self right when talking aobut mousees and joysticks!

:max: :sam:

Oh yeah, I'm just joking, i don't mean to offend anyone.

02-20-2002, 10:28 PM
You guys do kinda act like they are clueless making the game, the first person to press the button first wins, if you watched the exclusive trailer, it didn't show breaking out of the lock. It did however show how fast they are locked, it's fast paced, they aren't gonna make you press a button repeatedly. It's obvious, if you saw the PC Gamer UK trailer of the multiplayer if the action is moving that fast, they wouldn't make you press buttons for hours just to win a saber lock, they might run out of batteries :D

02-21-2002, 02:07 AM
WAITASEC....we've been real dummies here :D :D

Why? It's simple: If breaking a saber lock depends on who presses the fire button the most times per second, then how are the AI supposed to break a saber lock????
They don't HAVE fire buttons!!! Gee I feel SMART now... :joy: :elephant:

02-21-2002, 07:17 AM
The lot of you are paranoid. The article states that whoever presses the fire button fastest wins the lock.. Alright lets dissect this sentence.

First, implying that the sentence means that you must press the fire button repeatedly to win the lock would be a bad choice of words. Have yet to see a reviewer of a large site (i.e. Gamespy) use odd wording. I doubt thats the case here.

Second, why on earth button mashing? It doesn't make sense. Sure, 'one button ends the saber lock' will make for pretty quick saber locks, but I see no better solution to ending a saber lock.

Yikes guys, lighten up. I know its going to be the uber coolest 1337 game of the world but you dont need to get all frantic over it :)

Lord Chief
02-21-2002, 07:38 AM
I definitely second that opinion. Raven Software is well known for their succesful attempts into incorporating all sorts of interesting elements of gameplay to any of the games that they produce.

I say its a bit premature to declare this game a loser or winner in terms of gameplay. Lets just wait for the demo shall we?

02-22-2002, 07:12 AM
Im sure its not what you all think, aside gamepads as well as any control will work fine, just because your so narrowly attached to the keyboard doesn't mean we all are.

02-22-2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by ukdag69
PC Gamer Uk is the finest games magazine on the planet, ignore the criticism and go and buy it, people.

i hope everyone takes that statement with a grain of salt :o

pcg uk rated Command & Conquer: Renegade as a 47% title.
Renegade is a 80%+ title, judging from what i played at a press-demo two weeks ago

pcg do reviews, and they do "reviews" - eg they want lots of support from the developers, or they don't write anything too great..

my tip is to save that cash for internet access & a nice subscription news site with good content

.. then again, some people call me insane ;)