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View Full Version : Lightsaber moves, parries, etc... questions


Baleine
02-22-2002, 01:40 AM
Before even thinking of reminding me how many questions have already been asked about this particular subject, please take in mind that this is the first time I post on this here message board, which seems very nice btw.

Having said that, on with the Q's!

I played both dark forces and jedi knight, and of course was crazy over the lightsaber fights. But in JK, I was somewhat dissapointed at how little control you had over your lightsaber... parry happened automatically and, more often than not, erradically as well. Its my understanding from having read most of the FAQ that there are a lot more saber moves in JK2, but how will they work? Basically the same way as in JK1? How will parry work? What is a saber lock? (saw something about force push breaking up saber locks) And overall, just how much control do you have over your saber?

I guess I wont really have true answers to my questions until I play the game, but if anyone can fill some of these up until that happens, thanks in advance!

CorranHornjr
02-22-2002, 03:21 AM
Well let me be one of the first to say Welcome Baleine. I am a newbie as well. I looked at the forums for about 3 months or so before signing up early this month. I don't know if anyone took notice to my entry, but it has been a great stay so far.

I, like you, was dissappointed with JK's saber fights, when i first played I was thrilled that i could use a saber. But after awhile playing multiplayer it got kinda boring with how saber fights went. Run and slash method....well enough of my history with JK.

on to answer your questions,

1) They have made alot of improvements, infact it is a brand new lightsaber tech. that Raven came up with. There will be 3 different stances/levels of skill with 8 attacks with each new level I believe. Plus the Parrying/blocking is much better and alot more accurate. We will not be able to control it, it is automatic again...I don't know if it would be better for us to control it like TPM PC game, but I think it will help with the speed of the game.

2) Saber locking is just like when the sabers would lock in the movies. When Luke and Vader would both swing and hit their sabers together..then they would "lock" together. Both fighting to push the other's saber back. Alot like a russian strength test. They do it alot in Empire Srikes back...cloud city. I think it is an awesome add to the saber fights.

3) Overall we will have most control over the saber in certain ways. How fast we are moving, whether we are ducking or jumping, plus I believe we will have different combos as well that we can use.

If you want more there is alot more information on the Lucasarts website, plus if you look on the main page of jediknightII.net they have interviews where they talk alot about it.

I hope I helped out Baleine. Everyone please correct me if i didn't state it right. I know Gonk will have something to say...he always does. CRIIICKY!!!

L3onheart
02-22-2002, 03:38 AM
N00b #3 here :)

Welcome to the forums as well

Fardreamer
02-22-2002, 03:51 AM
Personally, I'm disappointed with the new lightsaber system. It appears as though it'll just be an enhanced version of the JK system. The footage in the trailers shows that it is necessary to run around quite a bit in order to be effective with the lightsaber - exactly the way sabers were used in JK; moreover, the developers clearly stated that moves will be based on the player's direction - same as JK. And worst of all, autoblock is the blocking method.

I created a mod for Mysteries of the Sith a couple of years ago, Art of the Lightsaber, that did exactly that - added many more moves to JK's existing system. The effect on gameplay was very disappointing. I had hoped it would make players focus on pulling off moves and not on running around in a button-mashing frenzy as they did in normal multiplayer, but what happened was that they generally ran around as usual, pulling off the the moves by button-mashing. I'm worried that JO's system will be too similar.

One of the main reasons the run-around system was so common was that there was very little control over blocking and parrying. The autoblock system was inaccurate and left players with the sense that it wasn't reliable, and with the impression that evading by running around was be more succesful. Players should be encouraged to anticipate opponents' attacks and defend themsleves by using a simple, fail-safe blocking method, like tapping a key.

Did you ever play the original Prince of Persia? That game had some great sword fighting, even though it was 2D.

CorranHornjr
02-22-2002, 04:00 AM
Fardreamer you made Art of the Lightsaber? Sweet, it was pretty good. Though I think ShadowX's SBX is better (He has kept it going though..), you started something with yours. Nice work.

Though I agree with the run and slash stuff that happened in JK, I dissagree with the fact that this lightsaber tech is going to be bad. If you look at the movies the saber to saber fights look pretty darn good..and the parry system looks much better. Though we don't truely know how it will work out...by the trailers we can tell that they seem pretty good.

Plus the guys that were playing the game for the trailers were really bad....they missed left and right. I don't know how else they can do a saber tech...even all the mods for JK used directional methods for saber...and it worked pretty well. SBX is really awesome and it added alot to the game, and JO is going to be much better thatn SBX.

Again nice work on AOTL.

GonkH8er
02-22-2002, 04:04 AM
AotL was one of my fav mods. gw man :) loved the hood stuff.


Good to see you -ites visiting here...

Fardreamer
02-22-2002, 04:19 AM
Thanks for the compliment :) SBX is really a super-enhanced AotL. I can definately say I started something with it, because most saber mods since then have used a portion of my mod.

Now, about saber fighting... in the movies, there are many different types of slashes that the Jedi use, and they have nothing to do with direction, since most of the time they're moving either forwards or backwards. When moving forward you can use an overhead chop, a left or right sideways slash, a stab, a spin & slash, etc. With a directional, or situation-based system as I prefer to call it, there is only one type of move you can do per situation: moving forward, moving backwards and crouching, etc. What is needed is a system that will allow a wide array of moves in any given situation. I especially like the "special-move" approach, as seen in fighting games (e.g. Mortal Kombat): special attacks require tap sequences.

Nemios
02-22-2002, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by Fardreamer
Thanks for the compliment :) SBX is really a super-enhanced AotL. I can definately say I started something with it, because most saber mods since then have used a portion of my mod.

Yeah, you really deserve these compliments and now I'm glad I can thank you directly (see my sig :D ). Now I can rest in peace... ;)

The problem with direction moves is you have to move and the usual result is the opponents run here and there trying to cath themselves. I see duels much more with one in front of the other very close. Even in JK this is possible if players agree to disable the "Always run" feature and is very enjoyable. I'm happy that now characters seem to move more slow.

nykel007
02-22-2002, 05:05 AM
Mabye you can create a new AotL for JK2? and oh, welcome newbie.:)

Fardreamer
02-22-2002, 05:33 AM
Thanks again everyone!

I'm actually working on a new saber mod for JK, which will completely, but I mean completely overhaul the lightsaber combat system as well as the Force power system. Problem is, I doubt it'll be done before JK2, so after I play the game, if I feel that there'll be any point in changing JK2's system, you can bet I will.

Broode
02-22-2002, 05:48 AM
I'm really hoping JO will be the answer to all my sabering needs, but it it becoming more and more apparent that it will not. Raven/LEC are making a lot of mistakes IMHO as far as saber combat goes, and I'm glad there are dedicated modders who will fix any problems with it. I really hope they pull off the sabering as it should be done, with less emphisis on movement and more on the actual combat.

I envisage a system where the saber can block all weapons at any time in a 360 degree radius, and any blocked attacks from a saber and blocks by you slow you down to a walk for a second. A manual block key, which blocks all incoming strikes, and while both are attacking at once (at least 2 firemodes, combos do special attacks) you can hit the others saber (collision detection ++) or you generally hit them.

A lot of people definately would not like this system, but if a like-minded person were to mod it, I would consider paying good money for it.

TUS_Tomcat
02-22-2002, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by Broode
the saber can block all weapons at any time in a 360 degree radius



which basicly means you're invincible !? :confused:

Darth Lunatic
02-22-2002, 07:34 AM
Yeah, that doesn't sound right. Jedi's are tough! But they aren't invincible. Blocking anything coming at you in a 360 degrees radius is just not feasable. We don't see that in the movies, so why put something like in the game?

Baleine
02-22-2002, 09:51 AM
In the game's trailer at some point you clearly see Kyle overhead slashing someone to death and in the same motion spinning around and slashing another someone in the ribs behind him. It looked really REALLY cool, and the way it plays out is giving me a little hope about the saber system yet.

Chewie_Rips
02-22-2002, 10:12 AM
Yes, I agree with the worries of the rest of you, however, MP JK Saber fights were quite awsome and I have spent years playing on the zone. Having said that, is still think JK's saber combat system was far from realalistic.(IMHO). To be honest, the best Saber combat system I have ever played in a game was obi-wans for x-box. Athough the game( very fun, but not to be compaired with JK) had some serious flaws, including some of the saber system, the basic elements of the system were awsome. The biggest reason was the auto-locking and auto/manual blocking. I think the only way to truly have close combat and intense " Movie" like jedi duels in a game like this ( 3rd person, 3D) is to have a system that allows you some sort of auto-locking, or tracking of oponents. ( Which helps integrate acrobatics too) How this would work in MP, I'm not sure as it proabably wouldnt make sense when there are more than 2 players playing at a time. JK tried to create smaller areas for duels, but as we all know, most players wouldn't stay in one place for more than about .5 seconds. Maybe were asking too much??? I don't think so. If JKO fails to deliver on a more improved saber system, condusive to better 'Duels"......than hopefully someone will create a mod that allows auto-locking for one, or 2, on one duels. That would be interesting to see how it would work. Also, I think strategic level design also plays a big factor in this as well, and how well a fight will flow, etc. Create a level that restricts a players movement, and doesn't allow them to run off in wimpering frenzy would be helpfull.

StormHammer
02-22-2002, 01:07 PM
Welcome to the forums, Baleine, CorranHornjr, L3onheart and Fardreamer. I hope your finding your stay enjoyable. Here...

*hands each a chocolate Jedi Medallion*

There you go. ;)

As for lightsaber combat...I'm glad to see there are going to be a range of new moves and styles this time around. I was hoping for a manual blocking system to be included as an option, but as you've suggested above, there is always room for a mod to add things that people would like to see in addition to the features already in the game. :)

I'll have to play with the saber (thoroughly) to see how it pans out, but I don't doubt the battles will be more intense than those in basic JK.

CorranHornjr
02-22-2002, 01:17 PM
This is what I would like atleast with the new lightsaber tech in JO

1) Better blocking, with more than 3 "block" moves. But there will be man different places where people could shot and he would still block it, using a different motion. (It would be cool if when someone shoots from behind, kyle blocks it like obi-wan in TPM...where Darth Maul slashes from behind and Obi-Wan puts the saber behind him...) anyway...

2) An acurate hit system. Many time I would slash and it would hit him...but the game would say that it didn't. But for it to be a real lightsaber, where if it hits anything, it kills it or goes through it.

3) Much better saber fights where it has to do with more than running and slashing and getting behind someone. but it takes strategy.

4) That cool little spin thing that obi-wan does in ANH and luke does in Empire...you know the one I am talking about? When they are fighting and they do a michael jackson spin and block vader's lightsaber....for no reason..atleast i think it is for no reason.

But I think that Raven has pulled off most of what I have asked for..but only time will tell and I am sure that our great Fardreamer will make something new or other Mod makers out there. So don't fret all, this engine gives a little more leway than the JK engine.

CRIIIKY!

SlowbieOne
02-22-2002, 01:22 PM
It seems to me the duels will be nothing like JK. I believe if you are skilled you will be able to cut down those button mashers with ease.

And as for the auto-blocking, it may work better than you think. It sucked in JK because they didn't have a collision-detection system like JK2, making it next to impossible to block when you wanted to. You will have much more control over where and how you block this time around.

I also have a feeling this game will rely on your reactions and reaction time, such as counterattacks. That way, you can let the button mashers come to you, wait for them to attack, and unload on em.:)

CorranHornjr
02-22-2002, 01:30 PM
*hands each a chocolate Jedi Medallion*

*Kisses medallion and cries as the star wars anthom is played over head..*

I FINALLY GOT A MEDALLION!! Dreams do come true!! Thanks StormHammer!

*Chewie roars from behind the line of newbies...He always gets screwed*

I am now content...back to serious stuff..yo

Bring the button smashers on...i don't know about you, but I am glad they added in the roll move and the jump flips...it adds alot.
It is more jedi like. The wall jumps and wall walks are going to be awesome.

[SWS]Strider
02-22-2002, 02:08 PM
You guys are aware that since the saber is a object, that any bolt that comes in cntact with it (not matter if you are swining or not) will bounce off. So I dunno, I felt like telling you all that.

Strider

DeathBoLT
02-22-2002, 03:23 PM
They can throw in as many moves they want.. just as long as they allow me to concentrate on movement rather than standing still and trying to out swing them...

call me stuck in a rut, but if i can't move fast when im using melee weapons, the game tends to be one that gathers dust on my shelf.

JediDante
02-22-2002, 06:43 PM
posted by: Deathbolt
They can throw in as many moves they want.. just as long as they allow me to concentrate on movement rather than standing still and trying to out swing them...

call me stuck in a rut, but if i can't move fast when im using melee weapons, the game tends to be one that gathers dust on my shelf.

Well alot of people here are not like that! Which includes myself,
want the saber battling to be true to the movies not running around and pressing Alt Fire which I feel is really really no way to fight! Which what I have seen of JK2 will be much more true to the movies of SW then anything else! But for now I'm going with SBX and getting a group togeather that want to play a RPG SW battle untill we can move to JK2.

DeathBoLT
02-22-2002, 09:42 PM
Well alot of people here are not like that! Which includes myself,
want the saber battling to be true to the movies not running around and pressing Alt Fire which I feel is really really no way to fight! Which what I have seen of JK2 will be much more true to the movies of SW then anything else! But for now I'm going with SBX and getting a group togeather that want to play a RPG SW battle untill we can move to JK2.

these forums aren't exactly representative of jk community, and won't most likely won't have represented quakers, etc. coming over. no matter tho:

if you want elaborate saber duels, great. the ability is obviously there, but don't force people who don't want to to play like you do by severly restricting movement(if you don't like movement, take off always run, don't strafe, etc.; problem solved).

sith hunter
03-07-2002, 06:24 PM
Does anyone know if they gonna put the 3rd person camera option that was used in Heretic II/Shadows of the Empire (I mean the pass by camera that focus the movements like a movie and not just stays behind-the-back of Kyle)?
That camera option is extremely AWESOME ,specially for Battles,you gotta see that in Heretic II, it could be a great add-on or a great inspiration for modders.

nK_Archangel
03-07-2002, 08:49 PM
I think the most important thing to remember is that there are THREE different fighting stances. Hopefully they will be well balanced enough that players will actually want to switch between them. As SOON as that happens, I feel saber duels will drastically change from the Alt-Fire, Knights of the Round table-like charge fest that was JK.

Combine the different stances with the 'special moves', such as backstab (woohoo!!), flip attack and wall-walking, and I'm fairly certain that saber duels will be a mixture of 'direction/movement based attacks' (as Fardreamer explained) AND actual 'swordplay'...

Although the 'button-sequence' type method of Mortal Kombat is an intriguing idea, I just don't think it'll work all that well in a completely free-flowing, frenetic mp FPS such as JO. It appears that Raven really has a put a large amount of thought into making the whole direction-based attack system as fluent and intuitive as possible.

Oh, and I agree, that bit in the movie when Kyle kills [two] Reborn, the second with a spin-around slice to the torso really does bode well for years of immersive saber duels to come. =)




:lsduel:

MrCrusher
03-08-2002, 09:07 AM
Button mashers beware!

In Raven's previous melee game a decent player could dismember limb by limb a room full of button mashing lammers. In a one on three confrontation, it was common to see a good blade dueler stand his ground (or evade and strike) frag after frag... until the lammers left the server.

Auto block is critical when lag is a concern. When is lag not a concern? If I remember correctly Raven used auto block thus. If you were standing facing your opponent you would always block and a block would stun your opponent momentarily allowing for a counter attack. If you were in walk mode forward, back, side step you could also block. When you were not facing the attacker, running, strafing, jumping, rolling and/or attacking you were vulnerable. If the attacker out flanked you then you were vulnerable. When you block in real life you do NOT think about it, you do IT automatically, otherwise your dead.

This allowed for a whole new form of fighting not commonly found in an internet game - "defensive or counter fighting". You could stand your ground or evade with ease. A single duel during clan tournaments could last up to 5 minutes. Real life fencers and martial artists found this control system very life like.

After constant requests from the community, Raven released a dueling patch several month after the game released with the addition of new models and skins and new attacks. So there appears to be an attitude of "there is always room for improvement" at Raven.

For those of you concerned about not getting what you want, you should rest at ease. In my opinion Lucas Arts has chosen the best developer for the job. I have tried all melee style games in hopes of finding an equal to Heretic 2 ...that has not yet happen.

Besides I will be the first to complain if JK2 doesn't measure up. ;)